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Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgical Abuses?  (Read 4253 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: April 20, 2011, 01:51:05 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 01:57:18 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:59:55 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 02:02:56 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.

I don't think it belongs here either.  I have no interest in it personally and it is not an Orthodox-Catholic issue...as the OP designed his question.
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 02:05:41 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).
Shortened services?

It's not unheard of for repeated litanies to get the axe on the repeat.
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 02:08:32 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 02:11:29 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
Au contraire. The claim is made that we are missing a head.  We have observed the Vatican rot from the head downwards since Vatican II, and before.  Supposedly we rotting from the tail up. I'm just asking for evidence of such "rot."

I don't think it belongs here either.  I have no interest in it personally and it is not an Orthodox-Catholic issue...as the OP designed his question.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 02:12:23 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 02:17:57 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 02:20:27 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 02:23:44 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 02:42:53 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 02:47:42 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?

A.  Then perhaps move the whole thread to a different forum.  "Orthodox liturgical abuses" sounds like a Faith or Liturgy issue.

B.  Yes.  The layman anointing the priest.  You read it correctly--twice.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 03:00:20 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?

A.  Then perhaps move the whole thread to a different forum.  "Orthodox liturgical abuses" sounds like a Faith or Liturgy issue.

B.  Yes.  The layman anointing the priest.  You read it correctly--twice.

Was not that matter taken care earlier this year by the canonical ecclesiastical authorities governing your church?

If that is the case, as I seem to recall, then it is a good example of how the Orthodox Church, supposedly lacking a 'head', acted promptly and in accordance with Church discipline.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 03:06:36 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?

A.  Then perhaps move the whole thread to a different forum.  "Orthodox liturgical abuses" sounds like a Faith or Liturgy issue.

B.  Yes.  The layman anointing the priest.  You read it correctly--twice.

Was not that matter taken care earlier this year by the canonical ecclesiastical authorities governing your church?

If that is the case, as I seem to recall, then it is a good example of how the Orthodox Church, supposedly lacking a 'head', acted promptly and in accordance with Church discipline.

Yes, it was.

And you're right, it is an excellent example of ecclesiastical discipline.  However, it didn't occur quite as promptly as appearances would have one believe.  But that's a whole other issue.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 03:18:37 PM »

My priest anoints himself with Holy Unction, so a layman anointing a priest in church is odd, but I would not call it an abuse as much as an oddity since laymen take Holy Unction home with them and anoint those who cannot come to the services. They used to do the same with Holy Communion. The priest is necessary for the "making" of sacraments, but not for their distribution. The Orthodox aren't bound by Latin clericalism.
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 03:39:01 PM »

My priest anoints himself with Holy Unction, so a layman anointing a priest in church is odd, but I would not call it an abuse as much as an oddity since laymen take Holy Unction home with them and anoint those who cannot come to the services. They used to do the same with Holy Communion. The priest is necessary for the "making" of sacraments, but not for their distribution. The Orthodox aren't bound by Latin clericalism.

I wonder if all Orthodox would consider it an oddity as opposed to an abuse.  I know it wasn't the sole reason for this priest's dismissal, etc., but it was certainly part of the picture.  The "cradle Orthodox" who witnessed it were totally appalled and scandalized.  So, perhaps it would be useful if the OP would define "abuse" and differentiate it from "oddity" or idiosyncrasy or whatever. 

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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 03:40:05 PM »

The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

We could certainly make a list of what we consider liturgical abuses in the Orthodox Church, but if the purpose of the thread is to allow Roman Catholics to prove that Orthodox have as many such abuses as they, this is a pointless exercise.  Orthodox are scandalized by organs, while guitars are unthinkable.  Women in the altar (except for in female monasteries) is a serious scandal for Orthodox (and probably extremely rare), not at all to be compared with female “Eucharistic Ministers”.  Removing one or more of the litanies which are repeated at several points in a service is scandalous from an Orthodox point of view, but a whole “New Mass” with the priest “performing” facing the “spectators” is completely unthinkable.  Not to mention the liturgical abuse of lifeless wafers for “Communion”, changing the Nicene Creed, a 15 minute “Mass”, not permitting the faithful to have Communion in both bread and wine.  Such things are an abomination, and will not be found in an Orthodox Church.    
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 04:23:53 PM »

The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

We could certainly make a list of what we consider liturgical abuses in the Orthodox Church, but if the purpose of the thread is to allow Roman Catholics to prove that Orthodox have as many such abuses as they, this is a pointless exercise.  Orthodox are scandalized by organs, while guitars are unthinkable.  Women in the altar (except for in female monasteries) is a serious scandal for Orthodox (and probably extremely rare), not at all to be compared with female “Eucharistic Ministers”.  Removing one or more of the litanies which are repeated at several points in a service is scandalous from an Orthodox point of view, but a whole “New Mass” with the priest “performing” facing the “spectators” is completely unthinkable.  Not to mention the liturgical abuse of lifeless wafers for “Communion”, changing the Nicene Creed, a 15 minute “Mass”, not permitting the faithful to have Communion in both bread and wine.  Such things are an abomination, and will not be found in an Orthodox Church.    


Gee, and here I thought this thread was for Catholics to point out Orthodox liturgical abuses  Grin  Silly me!

Seriously, though, there is no question that there are liturgical abuses in Catholicism.  No one is denying that at all.  This thread started, I believe, as a result of this, from another thread:

Quote from: ialmisry on Yesterday at 04:34:07 PM

Quote from: Wyatt on Yesterday at 02:03:52 PM
They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.


It's unfortunate that someone always insists on referencing "the clown masses"  Sad.  Given that the plural was used, just how many of them were there, anyway? As appalling as "they" were, they are hardly representative of Catholicism, even though some would like to think they are.  It or they are only representative of pride and sinfulness, and abuse of the Liturgy.  To equate them with Catholicism is totally disingenuous.  It would be equally disingenuous of me were I to keep talking about the abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice that I have personally witnessed and to equate them with Orthodoxy.  C'mon, Isa, of all people you should know better than that.  It is comments like that that make any kind of dialog between Catholics and Orthodox almost impossible.  If you or anyone else is so opposed to dialog (and I am *not* saying you are) then why even discuss anything with Catholics?


Please notice the part in bold type. (That was my comment, by the way, not Wyatt's.)

So, this whole thread, unless someone has some kind of weird interest in Orthodox liturgical abuses, is really pointless, as it was just an attempt to deflect a criticism and to goad and/or bait Catholics for no good reason.  Of that I will have no part, so I'm going to stop posting here. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 04:29:46 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 04:27:10 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).
Shortened services?

It's not unheard of for repeated litanies to get the axe on the repeat.

Aren't "shortened" services allowed to be done so in specific ways for economy?

The Priest at the parish I attend shortens some the services (Canons are omitted) because he frankly admits many fewer people would show up.
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 04:40:49 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).
Shortened services?

It's not unheard of for repeated litanies to get the axe on the repeat.

Aren't "shortened" services allowed to be done so in specific ways for economy?
Should they be?

(Just to be clear, I don't ask this with any implied condemnation.)
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »



Folks,

This thread is fine where it is.  If you have something to contribute, namely a testimony of liturgical abuse in an Orthodox church akin to the infamous "clown" or "polka" Masses in RC churches, please do so.

If you're going to argue about whether or not this thread is appropriate, you are derailing it and will be sanctioned accordingly. 

In the future, if you think a thread is in the wrong place, use the Report to Moderator function. 

And put the sophistry card back in the deck.  I don't want to hear it and you shouldn't want to deal me one.  Contribute properly or don't contribute, at all.  It's not rocket science. 

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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 05:00:55 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).
Shortened services?

It's not unheard of for repeated litanies to get the axe on the repeat.

Aren't "shortened" services allowed to be done so in specific ways for economy?
Should they be?

(Just to be clear, I don't ask this with any implied condemnation.)

Just to be clear, I asked non-rhetorically. Is it better to have a Bridegroom Matins which is slightly shortened than none at all? Or for it to be slightly shortened and twice the amount of parishioners arrive than if it weren't? Not that this is the choice every parish must face, but sometimes it seems to play a sincere role in how to handle the length of services.

Would this count as liturgical abuse?

Or having Forgiveness Vespers slightly after coffee hour around 3PM when the Sun is still in full glory so that many more would attend? Or a Vesperal service in the morning?
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2011, 06:19:13 PM »

My priest anoints himself with Holy Unction, so a layman anointing a priest in church is odd, but I would not call it an abuse as much as an oddity since laymen take Holy Unction home with them and anoint those who cannot come to the services. They used to do the same with Holy Communion. The priest is necessary for the "making" of sacraments, but not for their distribution. The Orthodox aren't bound by Latin clericalism.

I wonder if all Orthodox would consider it an oddity as opposed to an abuse.  I know it wasn't the sole reason for this priest's dismissal, etc., but it was certainly part of the picture.  The "cradle Orthodox" who witnessed it were totally appalled and scandalized.  So, perhaps it would be useful if the OP would define "abuse" and differentiate it from "oddity" or idiosyncrasy or whatever.  
No, I think it better that I leave it open ended. Case in point:  it would seem that the situation you cite has been dealt with. But I purposely did not discount an abuse that was dealt with as being matter for this thread. Heck, I don't limit it to the Orthdoox (cradle or convert) from being appalled or scandalized, but left it open to scandalized followers of the Vatican (hence why it is here).  Many of them would be scandalized by leavened eucharists.  Of course, we are not, but if someone wanted to bring it up here, go ahead.  The example I put in the OP-DL without communicants-doesn't scandalize a lot of Orthodox and non-Orthdoox alike. One might add to that DL in a language the worshippers, including the priest, neither speaks nor understands.
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2011, 08:20:46 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
Au contraire. The claim is made that we are missing a head.  We have observed the Vatican rot from the head downwards since Vatican II, and before.  Supposedly we rotting from the tail up. I'm just asking for evidence of such "rot."

I don't think it belongs here either.  I have no interest in it personally and it is not an Orthodox-Catholic issue...as the OP designed his question.


Sorry 'bout that.  I really didn't get what was going on with this at first.  Now I've got it.
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2011, 09:51:35 PM »

The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

We could certainly make a list of what we consider liturgical abuses in the Orthodox Church, but if the purpose of the thread is to allow Roman Catholics to prove that Orthodox have as many such abuses as they, this is a pointless exercise.  Orthodox are scandalized by organs, while guitars are unthinkable.  Women in the altar (except for in female monasteries) is a serious scandal for Orthodox (and probably extremely rare), not at all to be compared with female “Eucharistic Ministers”.  Removing one or more of the litanies which are repeated at several points in a service is scandalous from an Orthodox point of view, but a whole “New Mass” with the priest “performing” facing the “spectators” is completely unthinkable.  Not to mention the liturgical abuse of lifeless wafers for “Communion”, changing the Nicene Creed, a 15 minute “Mass”, not permitting the faithful to have Communion in both bread and wine.  Such things are an abomination, and will not be found in an Orthodox Church.    


I hear you. But I say to Orthodox who seem so interested in these things, so what? In most parts of the Catholic Church in recent times, the liturgy has been an awful mess. There we are. I've said it. Considering the storms that are raging around us, pretty much bringing an end to Christian civilization for the first time since Constantine, I say, at least we aren't "ordaining" women and sodomites, etc. It could be worse!

I don't deny that the liturgical abuses in the Orthodox churches are not as prevalent, but overall the grass is not greener on your side: Your churches have their own serious crises to deal with. And we have ours. And one is the unraveling of the liturgy.

Remember when you folks were smashing icons after the Islamic conquests? That crisis took a while to overcome.

For our own iconoclastic crisis*, it will certainly take some time.


*from which you EO are not entirely immune

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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2011, 10:39:25 PM »

It could be worse!

Wow. Just...wow. I guess there's no arguing with that! Undecided

Quote
I don't deny that the liturgical abuses in the Orthodox churches are not as prevalent, but overall the grass is not greener on your side: Your churches have their own serious crises to deal with.


They're not even in the same universe...
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2011, 10:45:16 PM »

They're not even in the same universe...

I looked into joining you folks, and I must disagree. And the more you point at our problems, the more yours will fester.
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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2011, 10:54:52 PM »

Ah, I see from another thread that you are an ex-Catholic who hasn't yet become Orthodox. Well, I hope you find the grass green enough on the other side. Personally, I didn't find it any greener, just different patches of grass that were withered than I see in the Catholic lawn. I don't need to change churches to get busy fertilizing and watering.  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2011, 10:58:57 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?

Mary of Egypt Blessed a Priest... does that count?
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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2011, 11:06:40 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?

Is this the most appropriate forum for this thread?  After all, it has nothing to do with Catholicism, in and of itself.
The accusation was that we were just as bad as the Vatican. I am giving the followers of the Vatican their chance to put up or shut up.

I think you may be misrepresenting someone else's statements about so-called accusations.

And.....Does a layman anointing a priest with Holy Unction at the Service of Holy Unction during Holy Week count?  Or not?

For our purposes here, sure, why not call it an abuse?

"For our purposes here...."Huh  Either it's an abuse or not.  My understanding is that *only* a properly ordained priest is allowed to administer sacraments.  So when a priest allows a layman to anoint him as above, is it not an abuse?  If not, what is it?
Whether it is an abuse or not is a Faith or Liturgy issue, and this is not that forum.

The layman anointing the priest?

Mary of Egypt Blessed a Priest... does that count?
But, was it in the context of liturgy? Wink

I went to liturgy at a church in FL one time where the priest refused to say "Orthodox Christians" and only said "Christians." That definitely shocked me. He also added "and women" immediately following the word "men." Definitely wasn't in the same liturgical books the laity had in the nave (which I'm almost positive he used the same one we had).

I've also been in churches (mainly OCA) where the priest would read the "secret prayers" aloud. I don't know if I could consider that an abuse per se, but I much prefer them not read aloud.

Why didn't anyone mention pews? Tongue I jest!

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 11:17:20 PM »

Christ didn't say to take the log out of your own eye so you could beat it over the head of your brother. Proclaiming Liturgical abuses of any faith tradition does not make the other side look "better"; it just makes us all look like fools that we have to put the other down to make ourselves feel better.

So the Catholic Church allows orange shag carpet. And the Orthodox Church allows organs. Does discussing either one of these things bring us closer to Christ? Does it aid us at all in our struggle for salvation? Do you really think that God will welcome you with open arms at the end of your life with "Thank you for proclaiming the evils of orange polyester floor covering!"  Wink

For goodness sakes, it is Holy Week for both Church's!

What good are our efforts to abstain from food if we chew up each other?

It is so easy to tear one another down and proclaim how one faith tradition is superior than the other, but what good does it gain you if you lose your soul in the process? We are all well aware of our differences. But for the sake of our Christ's Passion and His glorious Resurrection, can we stop and really think about what we are accomplishing here?

Wishing you all a blessed Holy Week.

Kali Anastasi!
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 11:19:13 PM »

Ya know, I would just love to hear someone say "I converted to Orthodoxy because the people were so full of love."

Just once, I would like to hear that.
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 11:24:49 PM »

Ya know, I would just love to hear someone say "I converted to Orthodoxy because the people were so full of love."

Just once, I would like to hear that.

That's a huge draw for me...Always has been.  That and the liturgical cycle, and the ascetic life.  It is all a beautiful fit for my natural spiritual tendencies.  I can't be a poster girl for you...but if we were in communion, I would be in an Orthodox parish instantly, because, even at their worst, Orthodox believers have always been kinder to me than my own... laugh

Christ is Risen!

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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 11:26:07 PM »

Christ didn't say to take the log out of your own eye so you could beat it over the head of your brother. Proclaiming Liturgical abuses of any faith tradition does not make the other side look "better"; it just makes us all look like fools that we have to put the other down to make ourselves feel better.

So the Catholic Church allows orange shag carpet. And the Orthodox Church allows organs. Does discussing either one of these things bring us closer to Christ? Does it aid us at all in our struggle for salvation? Do you really think that God will welcome you with open arms at the end of your life with "Thank you for proclaiming the evils of orange polyester floor covering!"  Wink

For goodness sakes, it is Holy Week for both Church's!

What good are our efforts to abstain from food if we chew up each other?

It is so easy to tear one another down and proclaim how one faith tradition is superior than the other, but what good does it gain you if you lose your soul in the process? We are all well aware of our differences. But for the sake of our Christ's Passion and His glorious Resurrection, can we stop and really think about what we are accomplishing here?

Wishing you all a blessed Holy Week.

Kali Anastasi!

I am genuinely interested in the questions I brought up not as a tearing down, but about how "flexible" the Liturgy can be in EO and remain kosher so to speak.
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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2011, 11:28:54 PM »

Christ didn't say to take the log out of your own eye so you could beat it over the head of your brother. Proclaiming Liturgical abuses of any faith tradition does not make the other side look "better"; it just makes us all look like fools that we have to put the other down to make ourselves feel better.

So the Catholic Church allows orange shag carpet. And the Orthodox Church allows organs. Does discussing either one of these things bring us closer to Christ? Does it aid us at all in our struggle for salvation? Do you really think that God will welcome you with open arms at the end of your life with "Thank you for proclaiming the evils of orange polyester floor covering!"  Wink

For goodness sakes, it is Holy Week for both Church's!

What good are our efforts to abstain from food if we chew up each other?

It is so easy to tear one another down and proclaim how one faith tradition is superior than the other, but what good does it gain you if you lose your soul in the process? We are all well aware of our differences. But for the sake of our Christ's Passion and His glorious Resurrection, can we stop and really think about what we are accomplishing here?

Wishing you all a blessed Holy Week.

Kali Anastasi!

I am genuinely interested in the questions I brought up not as a tearing down, but about how "flexible" the Liturgy can be in EO and remain kosher so to speak.
Double points for being Orthodox and using the word kosher!! Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 11:30:34 PM »

Ya know, I would just love to hear someone say "I converted to Orthodoxy because the people were so full of love."

Just once, I would like to hear that.

I've said it here before, that in terms of a movement of the heart, it came down to how the kids were treated and seeing them approach the Chalice.

Call it love, call it tenderness, but it certainly was a big part my desire to stand through many "boring" rituals surrounding a theology I sorta liked till I came to love the liturgy and other folks around me.

Fr. Thomas Hopko and how children were treated were what kept me coming back even when I literally could not nearly stand it.
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 11:32:25 PM »

Christ didn't say to take the log out of your own eye so you could beat it over the head of your brother. Proclaiming Liturgical abuses of any faith tradition does not make the other side look "better"; it just makes us all look like fools that we have to put the other down to make ourselves feel better.

So the Catholic Church allows orange shag carpet. And the Orthodox Church allows organs. Does discussing either one of these things bring us closer to Christ? Does it aid us at all in our struggle for salvation? Do you really think that God will welcome you with open arms at the end of your life with "Thank you for proclaiming the evils of orange polyester floor covering!"  Wink

For goodness sakes, it is Holy Week for both Church's!

What good are our efforts to abstain from food if we chew up each other?

It is so easy to tear one another down and proclaim how one faith tradition is superior than the other, but what good does it gain you if you lose your soul in the process? We are all well aware of our differences. But for the sake of our Christ's Passion and His glorious Resurrection, can we stop and really think about what we are accomplishing here?

Wishing you all a blessed Holy Week.

Kali Anastasi!

I am genuinely interested in the questions I brought up not as a tearing down, but about how "flexible" the Liturgy can be in EO and remain kosher so to speak.
Double points for being Orthodox and using the word kosher!! Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew

My religious speak is a mishegas.
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2011, 02:43:04 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

Speaking for myself, I have no problems with the OCNICWTV (Orthodox Church Not in Communion With the Vatican) in terms of liturgical abuses.

That's not why I don't convert (reaffiliate).
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2011, 04:11:06 PM »

Ya know, I would just love to hear someone say "I converted to Orthodoxy because the people were so full of love."

Just once, I would like to hear that.

While I have not yet attended a liturgy with them (hopefully I will after I move to NM later this year), I have experienced, if not "love" exactly, a lot of encouragement and caring advice from the Coptic Christians I have been in contact with. Does that count?  Huh

I don't know about the EO, but my Coptic friends have tried to explain it like this with regard to their own church: The Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt are oppressed and suppressed, and have been that way for a very long time. They are not even allowed to repair their churches, let alone build new ones or add to the ones that they already have, and they are certainly not allowed to openly proclaim the gospel to others outside of their faith. It has been this way for so long that even now, when there is a large diaspora outside of Egypt that does not face such restrictions, they still retain their protective mindset in the lands of immigration. It's not so much that they do not want to witness to outsiders with all the love that Christianity subsists in; they really just aren't used to being able to do that, so they are trying to develop a sort of "missionary mentality" from scratch. Understandably, this does not happen over night.
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2011, 04:22:00 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

(I know about DL where no one communes, which I've discussed in Faith Issues and Liturgy).

ialmisry,

It can be somewhat difficult to discuss liturgical abuses "across the aisle" as it were.

Take, for example, the incident about 3 years ago when an Orthodox bishop received from a Catholic bishop.

No canons were violated on the Catholic side, so to me questions concerning whether he did wrong etc were really an intra-Orthodox matter. A lot of comments that I read from other Catholics reflected that attitude as well (although I regret to say that I did also encounter some statements from Catholic which had a bit of a triumphalistic tone).

Anyhow, to wrap up this digression and tie this back to your OP, I guess there are some matters where it's just not my place to say if it's an "Orthodox Liturgical Abuse" or not.
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2011, 05:06:20 PM »

It is unlikely that most of the Roman Catholics on this board will be in attendance at Orthodox churches, in order to be able to verify what does or doesn't happen.

So, it is hardly possible for them to answer the question as put.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2011, 06:07:25 PM »

At the unction service last night anyone who approached was anointed. Was this a sacramental service or was it a general kind of oil for all? Also, they might have had different kinds of oil at the table for each person as they came up, as they sometime switched out cotton swabs and seemed to have different containers up there. Just curious if it was an abuse, but I seriously doubt it because nobody was scandalized or anything.
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »

And the Orthodox Church allows organs.

Yes, since the time of Pope St Vitalian (7th century). He allowed them at the time of a crisis of Gregorian chant. I believe the GOA did the same thing in the time of a crisis of Byzantine chant.
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2011, 06:31:13 PM »

At the unction service last night anyone who approached was anointed. Was this a sacramental service or was it a general kind of oil for all? Also, they might have had different kinds of oil at the table for each person as they came up, as they sometime switched out cotton swabs and seemed to have different containers up there. Just curious if it was an abuse, but I seriously doubt it because nobody was scandalized or anything.

We usually have two oils with us: Holy Unction for the Orthodox, and other blessed oils (like those from the lamps burning before miracle-working icons or relics) for the non-Orthodox.  We ask strangers if they're Orthodox before we attempt to anoint them.
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »


Speaking for myself, I have no problems with the OCNICWTV (Orthodox Church Not in Communion With the Vatican)
Oh, I must start using this!!!
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2011, 11:27:39 PM »

At the unction service last night anyone who approached was anointed. Was this a sacramental service or was it a general kind of oil for all? Also, they might have had different kinds of oil at the table for each person as they came up, as they sometime switched out cotton swabs and seemed to have different containers up there. Just curious if it was an abuse, but I seriously doubt it because nobody was scandalized or anything.

This is how it is handled at my parish. All are invited to be anointed, but not all participate in the sacrement.

This practice is well held by both converts and cradles in the parish.
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