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Author Topic: 550 Students Baptized at Saint Mark's In Belgrade  (Read 2435 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: April 18, 2011, 12:34:18 PM »

Outside the Cathedral of Saint Mark in Belgrade yesterday, April 17th (Palm Sunday), 550 primary and secondary students were baptized into the Orthodox Christian Church. This marks probably the largest mass baptism in the city of Belgrade.
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 12:44:35 PM »

Outside the Cathedral of Saint Mark in Belgrade yesterday, April 17th (Palm Sunday), 550 primary and secondary students were baptized into the Orthodox Christian Church. This marks probably the largest mass baptism in the city of Belgrade.

Apparently pouring is good.
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 12:45:37 PM »

Economia. It would be difficult to immerse 550 men simultaneously.
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 12:51:56 PM »

Slava Bogu!
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 12:59:01 PM »

Economia. It would be difficult to immerse 550 men simultaneously.

Doesn't look like the pouring is simultaneously either.  But I know what you mean.

But clearly pouring is ok.
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 02:15:33 PM »

I don't understand.. When did Orthodoxy stop baptising infants? Why aren't these children baptised yet? Is anabaptism popular in Serbia?

In Catholicism, withholding children with Catholic children from baptism is a mortal sin. The child should be baptised as early as possible.
Baptising a child at 3 years old is late, but primary and secondary school student, and 550 of them???
How many unbaptised "Orthodox" are there in Serbia?? According to statistics 85% of Serbs are Orthodox, but how many of them are baptised?
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 02:16:06 PM »

They were in that 15%.
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 02:24:35 PM »

I don't understand.. When did Orthodoxy stop baptising infants? Why aren't these children baptised yet? Is anabaptism popular in Serbia?

In Catholicism, withholding children with Catholic children from baptism is a mortal sin. The child should be baptised as early as possible.
Baptising a child at 3 years old is late, but primary and secondary school student, and 550 of them???
How many unbaptised "Orthodox" are there in Serbia?? According to statistics 85% of Serbs are Orthodox, but how many of them are baptised?


I assume that they converted to the Faith. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 02:26:32 PM »

In formerly Communist countries, these sorts of baptisms are quite common.
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 03:30:39 PM »

Outside the Cathedral of Saint Mark in Belgrade yesterday, April 17th (Palm Sunday), 550 primary and secondary students were baptized into the Orthodox Christian Church. This marks probably the largest mass baptism in the city of Belgrade.

Apparently pouring is good.

The Didache states that it is acceptable if immersion is not reasonably possible.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 03:49:06 PM »

I don't understand.. When did Orthodoxy stop baptising infants? Why aren't these children baptised yet? Is anabaptism popular in Serbia?

In Catholicism, withholding children with Catholic children from baptism is a mortal sin. The child should be baptised as early as possible.
Baptising a child at 3 years old is late, but primary and secondary school student, and 550 of them???
How many unbaptised "Orthodox" are there in Serbia?? According to statistics 85% of Serbs are Orthodox, but how many of them are baptised?


According to the U.S. Census Bureau and your 85% figure, there are 1,530,596 children from 0-19 years. Of those, ~1,301,007 are Orthodox. That equals 229,589 non-Orthodox children in Serbia today. 550 is hardly unusual or cause to believe the Serbian Orthodox aren't baptizing their children.
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 04:08:12 PM »

I don't understand.. When did Orthodoxy stop baptising infants? Why aren't these children baptised yet? Is anabaptism popular in Serbia?

In Catholicism, withholding children with Catholic children from baptism is a mortal sin. The child should be baptised as early as possible.
Baptising a child at 3 years old is late, but primary and secondary school student, and 550 of them???
How many unbaptised "Orthodox" are there in Serbia?? According to statistics 85% of Serbs are Orthodox, but how many of them are baptised?


According to the U.S. Census Bureau and your 85% figure, there are 1,530,596 children from 0-19 years. Of those, ~1,301,007 are Orthodox. That equals 229,589 non-Orthodox children in Serbia today. 550 is hardly unusual or cause to believe the Serbian Orthodox aren't baptizing their children.

I wonder if it may also be the case that some children weren't baptized prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, and so they still aren't baptized today and are baptized as adults now that it's legal and permitted.
(just conjecture and wondering)
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 04:27:21 PM »

I don't understand.. When did Orthodoxy stop baptising infants? Why aren't these children baptised yet? Is anabaptism popular in Serbia?

In Catholicism, withholding children with Catholic children from baptism is a mortal sin. The child should be baptised as early as possible.
Baptising a child at 3 years old is late, but primary and secondary school student, and 550 of them???
How many unbaptised "Orthodox" are there in Serbia?? According to statistics 85% of Serbs are Orthodox, but how many of them are baptised?


According to the U.S. Census Bureau and your 85% figure, there are 1,530,596 children from 0-19 years. Of those, ~1,301,007 are Orthodox. That equals 229,589 non-Orthodox children in Serbia today. 550 is hardly unusual or cause to believe the Serbian Orthodox aren't baptizing their children.

I wonder if it may also be the case that some children weren't baptized prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, and so they still aren't baptized today and are baptized as adults now that it's legal and permitted.
(just conjecture and wondering)

Maybe their parents' grandparents were pious and had them baptized, but the parents stopped going to church and now are coming back and having their children baptized. Nothing extraordinary there.
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 04:41:09 PM »

In formerly Communist countries, these sorts of baptisms are quite common.
Not in my country. Virtually everybody was baptized here. Even Ceausescu's own sons and daughter.
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 05:03:21 PM »

Outside the Cathedral of Saint Mark in Belgrade yesterday, April 17th (Palm Sunday), 550 primary and secondary students were baptized into the Orthodox Christian Church. This marks probably the largest mass baptism in the city of Belgrade.

Apparently pouring is good.
if an Orthodox priest does it, and as an exception.
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 05:21:10 PM »

Outside the Cathedral of Saint Mark in Belgrade yesterday, April 17th (Palm Sunday), 550 primary and secondary students were baptized into the Orthodox Christian Church. This marks probably the largest mass baptism in the city of Belgrade.

Apparently pouring is good.

The preferred way for baptism is triple immersion in "live" water according to the Didache.  But it also speaks of pouring when necessary.

Here is a group of Serbs being baptized at Decani monastery by the monks and the bishop.





For article and a few more photos:
http://www.kosovo.net/krstenje.html
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 04:51:28 AM »

Prayers.....

Gospode Pomiluj..Amin Amin

Lord Grant them Many Years ,and Good Health....Amen Amen

Axios ,Dostojni, Worthy.........
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 11:22:08 AM »

A joyous event, regardless of the back story. Why fret? Rejoice and be exceedingly glad.....and don't worry whether they were 'dunked' or 'poured'.
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 12:38:55 PM »

Glory be to God! What a wonderful evidence of the transformation of a formerly materialistic society back to the faith. I pray that this same thing also occurs in Bulgaria and other formerly materialistic (Communist) nations.

Looking at the baptisms at the monastery (that Father Ambrose posted) brought back fond memories of the same mode that we did in Lake Austin, Texas, when Father James Kenna of Saint Elias (Antiochian) who baptized eight adults. As I recall, we had Liturgy first, then we went to the lake, baptized the catechumens, returned to church and proceeded with Chrismation, Communion and a feast afterward!
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 12:46:21 PM »

Oh please, no nations are more "materialist" and consumerist than capitalist nations.
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 01:39:31 PM »

Oh please, no nations are more "materialist" and consumerist than capitalist nations.

I'm going to have to agree.
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 01:53:18 PM »

Since I am Bulgarian, I can safely say that the Bulgarians in Bulgaria were much more materialistic than the Bulgarians I encountered in Turkey and in the United States. Perhaps, the world has become more homogeneous since then. Such a pity.
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 12:09:53 AM »

XB!

What a shame and publicity stunt! In case of emergency (Death Bed or going to War) where massive  Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.In Serbia since the Communist take-over almost NO-ONE who wants to be in good will with ALL is Canonically administering the mystery of Baptism.In the picture of Decani Monastery it looks like Bp.Artemy is standing on the shore while His Vicar is immersing,and most are familiar how Bp.Artemy is being persecuted currently.In the book of needs,it fully explains what a Bishop should do to a Priest who does not Baptise correctly,when there is no emergency;the Priest should be Defrocked! but then again the Bishop would have to be Orthodox.Is there any wonder why Holy Serbia is getting smaller and smaller all the time?
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2011, 12:41:31 AM »

A joyous event, regardless of the back story. Why fret? Rejoice and be exceedingly glad.....and don't worry whether they were 'dunked' or 'poured'.

Kind of my feeling as well, and I'm not naturally inclined to optimism.
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2011, 04:13:01 AM »

XB!

What a shame and publicity stunt! In case of emergency (Death Bed or going to War) where massive  Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.In Serbia since the Communist take-over almost NO-ONE who wants to be in good will with ALL is Canonically administering the mystery of Baptism.In the picture of Decani Monastery it looks like Bp.Artemy is standing on the shore while His Vicar is immersing,and most are familiar how Bp.Artemy is being persecuted currently.In the book of needs,it fully explains what a Bishop should do to a Priest who does not Baptise correctly,when there is no emergency;the Priest should be Defrocked! but then again the Bishop would have to be Orthodox.Is there any wonder why Holy Serbia is getting smaller and smaller all the time?
Such utter BS.
Warmest paschal greetings.
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2011, 07:29:07 AM »

In case of emergency (Death Bed or going to War) where massive  Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.

It looks like we use different Creeds.
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 07:54:06 AM »

Christ is Risen!


Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.


Ouch!    Any priest doing a repeat of such baptism should be defrocked according to the sacred canons.

Many of the tens of thousands of Russians who have now emigrated to the West and come into the Russian Church Abroad have been baptized back in Russia by pouring.    Your priest must have experience of this with new immigrants?
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 03:52:53 PM »

The only thing worse than Baptism by pouring is healing on the Sabbath!  police
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 04:27:25 PM »

The only thing worse than Baptism by pouring is healing on the Sabbath!  police

Perfection.
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2011, 12:13:21 PM »

XB!

The thrice accursed Clement V of Rome in the 12th century introduced "Pouring" or "Sprinkling" instead of
Immersion.Is there any Synodal decree anywhere in the Orthodox Church where a council has accepted this
innovation?since there is not,to the Orthodox it's anti-canonical and cannot stand.
One of the major differences between the Orthodox and Papists is the form of Baptism! The innovation of substitution of Holy Baptism for affusion or infusion,where water is poured over the candidates head or aspersion where water is sprinkled on the candidates forehead.
 
Did the Romanian Church accept this innovation when they changed the Calender and received a Patriarch in the last century?
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« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2011, 12:22:33 PM »

Is there any Synodal decree anywhere in the Orthodox Church where a council has accepted this
innovation?since there is not,to the Orthodox it's anti-canonical and cannot stand.

This crazy, Papal-like legalism of yours is unbecoming an Orthodox Christian. Repent!
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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2011, 12:29:56 PM »

In case of emergency (Death Bed or going to War) where massive  Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.

It looks like we use different Creeds.

XB!

The Greek Verb for "I Baptize" means to immerse or plunge and is linked with the word dip,it never means pouring or sprinkling.If we look at the word Baptism,we see at once that the candidate who hasn't been immersed is void of Baptism and unbaptized.Baptism called rebirth,regeneration,renewal;concerns the whole person,not a single member or part of a person.Just as the the spiritual effects of Baptism concern the whole person,also then the outward application ought to involve the whole body.
Does your creed have the "filioque"? mine does not!  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2011, 12:35:34 PM »

Christ is Risen!


Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.


Ouch!    Any priest doing a repeat of such baptism should be defrocked according to the sacred canons.

Many of the tens of thousands of Russians who have now emigrated to the West and come into the Russian Church Abroad have been baptized back in Russia by pouring.    Your priest must have experience of this with new immigrants?

Not to mention Lutherans who were Baptized by pouring and who were not re-Baptized when they joined ROCOR.  I know of at least three!
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2011, 12:49:24 PM »

Is there any Synodal decree anywhere in the Orthodox Church where a council has accepted this
innovation?since there is not,to the Orthodox it's anti-canonical and cannot stand.

This crazy, Papal-like legalism of yours is unbecoming an Orthodox Christian. Repent!

XB!

Our duty and obligation is to hold onto the truth handed down to us from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to the holy Apostles,down to the Holy Fathers.Usually on this serious issue resistance is met and opposition raised by individuals who have not been canonically Baptised,"sprinkled or poured". Ask the Fathers on Sinai,Athos,Palestine what their thoughts are through the writings of the Holy Fathers and word of mouth from ascetics of the past century regarding this innovation;and ask them to repent also!
The Greatest Serbian Saint after Saint Sava is St.Nikolai (Velimirovic).There is an English written book called ( the faith of the Saints:A Catechism) If You're familiar with the book,open up the section where Baptism is discussed by the Saint.The book itself is a Q@A,on the the question what is the most important part of a Baptism,Saint Nikolai answers 3 Immersions/emmersions in the name of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2011, 01:32:19 PM »

Christ is Risen!


Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.


Ouch!    Any priest doing a repeat of such baptism should be defrocked according to the sacred canons.

Many of the tens of thousands of Russians who have now emigrated to the West and come into the Russian Church Abroad have been baptized back in Russia by pouring.    Your priest must have experience of this with new immigrants?


XB!

3 Immersions/Emmersions in the name of the Holy Trinity are not repeated.According to the sacred Canons a Man who has not been Baptized Canonically cannot become a cleric.In following the Lords command (Mt.28:19) we baptise in the name of the Father,Son,and of the Holy Spirit,3 times in succession.Our Lord and Saviour enunciated the 3 hypostases separately and distinctly.Canon L of the Holy Apostles and Canon VII of the second Ecumenical Council define triple immersion.
Best thing is ask Your ArchPastor what His thoughts are concerning what happened at St.Marks in Belgrade.Whats even a greater sin is that right behind St.Marks is the Holy Trinity Russian Church (where Saint John of Shanghai and SF was consecrated a Bishop,where the Kurst Root Icon dwelled)and where they Canonically Baptise both infants and Adults! The size of St Marks is 10-15 X the size of Holy Trinity.Many Serbs get Baptised there especially small children,since even them the official Serbian Church does not immerse.
I know for a fact that if Soviet/Russian immigrants ask and seek to be properly Baptized in ROCOR,especially if they are active and participate in the Church services our ArchPastors have given a Blessing for them to be Baptized Canonically.If the mystery Immersions/emmersions is omitted certainly quite a few prayers are also disregarded.Again,now, less and less Pastors and layfolk care to put themselves in front of the crowd heading towards modernism and don't want to (and can't handle) being blacklisted and following in the foot steps of Saintly Martyrs Nectarios,Nikolai,and John.The older Hierarchs of ROCOR would never allow their Priests to sprinkle or pour a candidate for Baptism,and if the Priest tried that shortcut He would be forced to properly Baptise the candidate,and would be suspended from serving the first time,and if He ever tried again to pour He would be defrocked!
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« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2011, 02:00:02 PM »

The only thing worse than Baptism by pouring is healing on the Sabbath!  police


XB!

It's very difficult to be obedient to the Holy Fathers of the Church,due to the great boom of knowledge in the 21th century, ascetical lifestyles ,and of course lack of water in Belgrade! Highly educated and deeply Spiritual cannot coexist,God gave Serbia 2 Great Saints in the Last Century Saint Nikolai and Saint Justin and when it comes to the great judgement,Serbia has NO Excuse.We know that they are Saints! How come they didn't do (during great persecutions)what now is being done,(times of renewal and peace).Saint Nikolai STOPPED the concordat with Martyred St.Patriarch Varnava and the Bogomoljci movement in the 1930's when Serbia was going to unite with Rome.
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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2011, 02:13:20 PM »

Just as the the spiritual effects of Baptism concern the whole person,also then the outward application ought to involve the whole body.

This is a bit of a straw man. In fact, pouring does sometimes involve water being poured over the whole body.
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« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2011, 02:21:17 PM »

The only thing worse than Baptism by pouring is healing on the Sabbath!  police

Perfection.

XB!

Apart from an emergency,Saint Basil the Great,says "there is tribulation when someone dies without Baptism,or when something in the Mystery of Baptism,as it has been handed down to us,is omitted".

-Holy Priests,have large Baptisteries in the Churches where the entire Child can be immersed,that not even a smallest part stays dry,for even there the devil can dwell;that your Children become epileptic,demonized,frightful,evil inclined due to not being properly baptized-. Equal to the Apostles St.Cosmas of Aitolia.

What did our Lord tell Nicodemus? Are we born anew by being sprinkled or poured upon? or by being born of the Holy water and the Holy Spirit,where the old man dies and is buried while the new man steps out of the sanctified font born again?  in Your diocese under Bp.Longin what is the standard practice?
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« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2011, 02:51:30 PM »

Christ is Risen!


Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.


Ouch!    Any priest doing a repeat of such baptism should be defrocked according to the sacred canons.

Many of the tens of thousands of Russians who have now emigrated to the West and come into the Russian Church Abroad have been baptized back in Russia by pouring.    Your priest must have experience of this with new immigrants?

Not to mention Lutherans who were Baptized by pouring and who were not re-Baptized when they joined ROCOR.  I know of at least three!

XB!

Who is the Bishop? ArchBishop Alpy or Bp.Peter? The Russian Church has always Baptized Heathens,while accepting Catholics with either a confession of faith or crismation apart from the mid 17th century for a few decades and ROCOR from 1970 -2000? where Catholics have been Baptized ( I know to this day wonderful Pastors who explain the mystery and the candidates themselves request a Baptism) due to politics it's not something that posted on their websites or pushed upon someone inquiring about Orthodoxy.Those who seek will find,those who knock it will be opened and those who ask will receive.
Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) was not Baptized in the 60's when He was accepted into Holy Orthodoxy,but He personally always did regret it and counseled others (converts) to be Baptized by requesting it from their diocese Hierarch.St Hermans of Platina is under the Serbian Patriarchate,ask them what their opinion is considering the "baptism in Belgrade" or even how they receive converts.
While St.Nikodem of Agion Oros wrote concerning the Latin Practice-their baptism belies its name....neither according to the principle of acrivia nor according to that of economia is it acceptable.

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poslushnik
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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2011, 03:39:49 PM »

Just as the the spiritual effects of Baptism concern the whole person,also then the outward application ought to involve the whole body.

This is a bit of a straw man. In fact, pouring does sometimes involve water being poured over the whole body.


XB!


Saint Athanasios the Great,was the first to condemn heretical aspersion (discourse II Against the Arians 43,PG 26:237B:)

The Latin innovation is an "intentional" violation of the Lords commandment and Church's tradition;it is contrary to the single and Canonical Apostolic Tradition;it alters the meaning of "to baptize";and it is contrary"to the Apostolic likeness of the death,and the burial,and the Resurrection of Christ,as the likeness was interpreted by all the divine Fathers.
                         -Constantine Oikonomos of the Oikonomoi (1780-1857).

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Punch
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« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »

Alipy 1996

Christ is Risen!


Water is not available they could pour as an "economia" but if the recepients were to survive they would have to be properly Baptised.


Ouch!    Any priest doing a repeat of such baptism should be defrocked according to the sacred canons.

Many of the tens of thousands of Russians who have now emigrated to the West and come into the Russian Church Abroad have been baptized back in Russia by pouring.    Your priest must have experience of this with new immigrants?

Not to mention Lutherans who were Baptized by pouring and who were not re-Baptized when they joined ROCOR.  I know of at least three!

XB!

Who is the Bishop? ArchBishop Alpy or Bp.Peter? The Russian Church has always Baptized Heathens,while accepting Catholics with either a confession of faith or crismation apart from the mid 17th century for a few decades and ROCOR from 1970 -2000? where Catholics have been Baptized ( I know to this day wonderful Pastors who explain the mystery and the candidates themselves request a Baptism) due to politics it's not something that posted on their websites or pushed upon someone inquiring about Orthodoxy.Those who seek will find,those who knock it will be opened and those who ask will receive.
Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) was not Baptized in the 60's when He was accepted into Holy Orthodoxy,but He personally always did regret it and counseled others (converts) to be Baptized by requesting it from their diocese Hierarch.St Hermans of Platina is under the Serbian Patriarchate,ask them what their opinion is considering the "baptism in Belgrade" or even how they receive converts.
While St.Nikodem of Agion Oros wrote concerning the Latin Practice-their baptism belies its name....neither according to the principle of acrivia nor according to that of economia is it acceptable.


« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 04:35:49 PM by Punch » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2011, 04:54:51 PM »

Just as the the spiritual effects of Baptism concern the whole person,also then the outward application ought to involve the whole body.

This is a bit of a straw man. In fact, pouring does sometimes involve water being poured over the whole body.


XB!


Saint Athanasios the Great,was the first to condemn heretical aspersion (discourse II Against the Arians 43,PG 26:237B:)

The Latin innovation is an "intentional" violation of the Lords commandment and Church's tradition;it is contrary to the single and Canonical Apostolic Tradition;it alters the meaning of "to baptize";and it is contrary"to the Apostolic likeness of the death,and the burial,and the Resurrection of Christ,as the likeness was interpreted by all the divine Fathers.
                         -Constantine Oikonomos of the Oikonomoi (1780-1857).



Why are you talking about aspersion? I wasn't talking about it.
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