Author Topic: "UAOC-Canonical", under "Patriarch" Moisey, receives married man as Orthodox bis  (Read 3715 times)

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Offline Irish_Melkite

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"UAOC-Canonical", under "Patriarch" Moisey, receives married man as Orthodox bishop:

Michael Dwight Kirkland, who has been in many vagante jurisdictions, (Mariavite, Historical and Old Roman Catholic Church, Holy Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America, Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, etc.,) has claimed (even those he's married) to have been consecrated by "Patriarch" Peter Zhurawetsky, was recently with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, and more recently with the Melkites (with limited faculties with the Melkites and with the UOCIA and Melkites as a mitred archpriest) is now with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church-Canonical as a married bishop: 


http://www.forministry.com/USOHUOCUSUAO1

"His Grace" has a long missive on "restoration" of a married episcopacy:

http://www.forministry.com/USOHUOCUSUAO1/MarriedBishops.dsp




Offline mike

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Offline Irish_Melkite

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Who cares?

So Orthodox Christians know of the fakes out there.  Maybe you don't care, but others might.  Lose the attitude.

Offline podkarpatska

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Who cares?

So Orthodox Christians know of the fakes out there.  Maybe you don't care, but others might.  Lose the attitude.

Amen. Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing after all!

Offline ignatius

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Grace and Peace,

Is his evidence false?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Irish Melkite

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Who cares?

So Orthodox Christians know of the fakes out there.  Maybe you don't care, but others might.  Lose the attitude.

Tom,

The attitude that Michal expresses is probably pretty much prevalent here, and would likely be the same at ByzCath, and for good reason. The UAOC-C, the "-C" notwithstanding, is, at best, a 'non-canonical' Church, at worst, a vagante ecclesia, depending on one's definition of each and who is applying or interpreting the respective definitions. In either case, but particularly the latter, the ecclesiastical landscape is replete with similar examples and, as most knowledgeable EO/OO and EC/OC are aware of which Churches, hierarchs, parishes, etc are 'legit' and which are not, the misadventures of a particular individual in a Church that is not 'legit' are of small consequence and less interest.

Were Kirkland being received into a canonical Church, Orthodox or Catholic - as he apparently was, albeit briefly, into the Melkite Eparchy - the reaction might very well be different, as it would be a mistake of which members of the Church in question should be made aware (although, in such an instance, the better and more useful course of action would be to bring the information directly to the attention of the ecclesiastical jurisdiction's ruling hierarch, so it could be swiftly acted upon).

You can find myriad discussions here about vagante ecclesia and vagante episcopi, but in almost every instance these came about because either an establsihed member or, more frequently, a newbie inquirer came across an 'Orthodox' or 'Catholic' or 'Orthodox Catholic' or 'Catholic Orthodox' church, bishop, or presbyter, and wanted to verify its or his pedigree. There's little interest in threads that just serve to announce the existence of what's out there.

We're all aware that vesture is readily available in this day and age and, combined with a lazy-boy recliner to serve as throne, and a garage or rec room to serve as one's cathedral, one can be patriarch or patriarchess, metropolitan or metropolitana, archbishop or archbishopess, however one chooses to style oneself. Thanks to the online efforts of Al Green - focused on 'Orthodox' vagante, Terry Boyle - who has done likewise for 'Catholic' vagante, and Terry Begonja - whose subjects span the two and reach out into vagante of the other High Churches, much information is readily available and is  significantly more accessible than when resources were limited to the, not always easily secured, written works of Peter Anson, Karl Pruter, and Bertil Perrson.

Thus, there is little call in fora for 'outing' that doesn't serve the purpose of answering a query. I could post 20 or 30 threads a day, for a month, each focusing on a single vagante, 'independent', non-canonical, Old Calendrist Orthodox, or Old Catholic-type hierarch and neither exhaust the genre nor the lists that I maintain for ready reference - but it would serve no useful nor valid purpose.

[Paragraph removed due to privacy concerns, even though you were defending the need for documentation -- Fr. Anastasios]

So, I suggest that you understand the lack of enthusiasm for the topic as you've approached it. Neither this site nor ByzCath are clearinghouses for airing ecclesiastical oddities outside the need to do so.

Do folks wander into these pseudo-churches blissfully unaware of what they've encountered? They certainly do. Do random threads directed at exposing such serve a useful purpose in stemming the tide of such? No, they don't.

So, save your fingers and wait for someone to pass through and ask. And, in time, someone will. On such an occasion, what you might know could very likely be welcome information. In the meantime, Michal's comment is pretty much on-point.

Many years,

Neil

  
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:15:37 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Grace and Peace,

Is his evidence false?

Kirkland has been with many vagante jurisdictions [personal information removed -- Fr. Anastasios]
Can you post this proof you say you have? Today, Pascha, and Bright Monday should give you enough time to fulfill this formal request. Otherwise, your charge will be taken as libel and sanctioned accordingly.

Thank you.

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« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 03:19:58 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Irish_Melkite

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Can you post this proof you say you have? Today, Pascha, and Bright Monday should give you enough time to fulfill this formal request. Otherwise, your charge will be taken as libel and sanctioned accordingly.

Thank you.

-PeterTheAleut
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[The source linked was altered and no longer supports a contention made in this post. Therefore, the information is removed. -- Fr. Anastasios]


As for Kirkland being bounced from many jurisdictions, I'll let his own words do that:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-07-28/news/0320000007_1_roman-catholic-diocese-catholic-church-kirkland

Kirkland later joined the Historical and Canonical Old Roman Catholic Church and set up a storefront parish near International Drive.

For more than a year that church was at odds with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orlando, which charged that because Kirkland was not authorized to perform Sunday Mass, his parishioners, many of them tourists, were not fulfilling their Sunday obligations.

In 1985 the group was forced to close the small parish and hold services in Kirkland's home.

Kirkland said he and his parishioners decided earlier this year to affiliate with the Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate because ''we wanted to root ourselves into a more solid, historical denomination.''

« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:16:46 PM by Fr. Anastasios »

Offline Irish_Melkite

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Who cares?

So Orthodox Christians know of the fakes out there.  Maybe you don't care, but others might.  Lose the attitude.

Tom,

(snipped)

Were Kirkland being received into a canonical Church, Orthodox or Catholic - as he apparently was, albeit briefly, into the Melkite Eparchy - the reaction might very well be different, as it would be a mistake of which members of the Church in question should be made aware (although, in such an instance, the better and more useful course of action would be to bring the information directly to the attention of the ecclesiastical jurisdiction's ruling hierarch, so it could be swiftly acted upon).

(snipped)

Many years,

Neil

  

Neil, I see what you're saying.  Now I was getting ready to get this info to the Melkite Chancery and the Archbishop because of the fact that letting him posed risk to the Eparchy but he had already left .... whether on his own volition or not, I don't know.    [Info removed for privacy concerns. -- Fr. Anastasios]

Tom
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:17:54 PM by Fr. Anastasios »

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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Sadly, many who claim to be "Christian" can't wait to throw that first stone!  Are they without sin?
"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline pious1

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"Archbishop Mikhail, isn't it true you are NOT recognized by either the UAOC headed by Metropalitan Mefodiy or the UOC-KP headed by Patriarch Filaret or the "Cannonical" Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA under the Eccumenical Patriarch?

Which Ukrainian church recognizes you? Does your church have a website?

Offline podkarpatska

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I checked the Bishop's profile and his website has a most disingenuous name indeed.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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I checked the Bishop's profile and his website has a most disingenuous name indeed.

Disingenuous indeed: "Orthodox Church of America" that links to, not the OCA website, but to something called:"Standing Episcopal Conference of Orthodox Bishops + Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical (UAOC-SEC)" How n the world can these folks call themselves the Orthodox Church of America when they are "Under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Kyiv and All Rus-Ukraine"? Have they no shame or at least a sense of proportion?

Offline Irish_Melkite

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Sadly, many who claim to be "Christian" can't wait to throw that first stone!  Are they without sin?

On one hand Vladyka, you could be right.  On the other hand, Orthodox Christians must be warned about groups and "leaders" who are fakes also.  I'm didn't do this to throw stones but to warn the Faithful.

Offline Irish_Melkite

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I checked the Bishop's profile and his website has a most disingenuous name indeed.

Disingenuous indeed: "Orthodox Church of America" that links to, not the OCA website, but to something called:"Standing Episcopal Conference of Orthodox Bishops + Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical (UAOC-SEC)" How n the world can these folks call themselves the Orthodox Church of America when they are "Under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Kyiv and All Rus-Ukraine"? Have they no shame or at least a sense of proportion?

Yes, and the "Orthodox Church of America" claims to be of the SEC.  However there is ANOTHER SEC... SEC-BRAMA.   So which one is the REAL SEC??   Most of us know the real OCA is the Orthodox Church IN America.  "Vladyka_Mikhail" is Bishop Michael Kirkland. 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 03:13:31 PM by Irish_Melkite »

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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It always amazes me how people mis-quote and "read" into things what they want to read into them.  Have you even read the pages on our website to understand exactly what our history is?  We have NEVER claimed to be or ever used the term "OCA" as that is NOT who we are.  You may wish to continue your words of hatred and judgment.  This IS NOT what Christ taught..."by their fruits you will know them!"  After nearly 35 years of ministry, it would be easy for me to name names and give examples of all the lies, filth and empty promises that abide; however, Our Blessed Lord teaches us to forgive and to turn the other cheek. 

You can say all you want about me...as nasty as you may put it...but, I stand with Jesus Christ and the Apostolic Doctrine that He taught and delivered to the Apostles and to the Early Undivided Church!  You, my sir, will NOT stray me away from this determination!

If anything has been learned throughout all these years and from folks with comments like your own, it is this: show me a Church that truly forgives as Christ forgives...that forgives even those who have sinned against the Church...and, that will be the True Church as founded by our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Study your own Church history...you may just find the beams...rather than pointing out my splinters!  God Bless You...



"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline Kasatkin fan

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"Orthodox Church of America" is rather similar to "Orthodox Church in America", and in fact many incorrectly use "of" when speaking of the OCA. I don't see how this can be an accident on the part of whoever made that site.

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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If you check the historical record...even correspondence between our SEC and Metropolitan +Ireney, of Thrice Blessed Memory, it will show the current "OCA" was known as the "Metropolia."  Our use was long before your Tomos of Autocephaly from Moscow!
"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline podkarpatska

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If you check the historical record...even correspondence between our SEC and Metropolitan +Ireney, of Thrice Blessed Memory, it will show the current "OCA" was known as the "Metropolia."  Our use was long before your Tomos of Autocephaly from Moscow!

I am not trying to be 'hateful' and I am not OCA, just someone with basic internet search skills. The wording of your URL address might cause some confusion with (most likely) a non-Orthodox searching for information about the Syosset based OCA. The many expressions of Orthodoxy in the US and the many jurisdictions which include Orthodox in their titles are confusing enough as it is to all of us, let alone to an outsider. That's all...It's like packaging in a store where a local product's packaging might be 'similar' to  name brand merchandise's packaging so as to capture the eye of the consumer, that's usually intentional. If you are saying that this is not the case here, so be it, I will take you at your word. However, the choice of a URL would have been made recently, not in the 1930's so I still feel that the choice was disingenuous.

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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I understand your comments and thank you for kindness in your reply.  If you do a Google search using our name you will see that the OCA is the site that brought up... is does not distinguish between the "of" or "in" in the names.  Ours is found more easily under a search for the Standing Episcopal Conference of Orthodox Bishops (SEC).  I, too, appreciate your concern for possible confusion and will see what we can do to alleviate present or future problems.  Thank you and God Bless You!
"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline pious1

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So Vladyka Mikhail, are you indeed married?

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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Important points for all who have posted on this page...

Find one example in Sacred Scripture where Jesus Christ or one of The Twelve condemns or prohibits a married man from being a bishop and I will show thousands of examples...to the contrary...from Sacred Tradition, Church History (both Orthodox & Catholic) and Sacred Scripture!

One must make sure things are correct in their own back yard...before pointing the finger at anyone else!

From Major Seminary days in the early 1970's, I remember the following saying: "the larger the carpet, the more dirt you can sweep under it!"

I departed at the height of "homosexual activities" and "liturgical experimentations"...thanking God each day He brought me to Holy Orthodoxy!

...for those with ears to hear...let them hear...
"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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Regarding a married priest being consecrated to the Sacred Episcopacy...please...thoroughly...review our website.

Is it so difficult to see the Truths contained in Sacred Scripture, the Early Church and in the lives of the Saints?

Specifically, in our present day, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America made a formal petition to the
Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople to allow the consecration of married men to be bishops!

Furthermore, as documented in the Greek Orthodox Observer and as reported in The New York Times, Canon Law
allows jurisdictions to act on this discipline since it is an Apostolic Doctrine.

One fundamental Truth remains..."God DOES NOT contradict Himself!"

** An official request has been made to substantiate the claims upon the GOA **
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 09:58:46 AM by serb1389 »
"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline Robb

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Is this part of a movement by Vagante jurisdictions to infiltrate mainstream canonical Churches for some strange reason (To get more legitimacy by gaining some type of recognition or valid orders, in some cases)?
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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I have not found one ecumenical canon that prohibits married bishops. The only canons that even touch upon the subject come from the Council at Trullo; there were two of them, Canon 12 states that bishops who were married at the time of the Council would henceforth live apart from their spouses. Canon 48 states that married men who are about to become bishops must put their wives in a monastery before they are ordained. In neither case are the marriages dissolved; thus, in both cases you have married bishops, albeit not living with their wives. Now, it is true that over the centuries the practice has evolved in all canonical churches to the standard that we have today. It may be that folks can unearth canons proclaimed by pan-Orthodox or even local churches that affirm the change from Trullo, which itself was a change from Apostolic praxis. I have not found any.

Offline Vladyka_Mikhail

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I am most happy to substantiate my claims upon the GOA!

Please refer to our website at www.orthodoxchurchofamerica.org under the "Married Bishops" Page for complete details.

You will find...at the very bottom...a copy of the front page from the July-August 1992 edition of the Orthodox Observer, I still have the original, which is the OFFICIAL Publication of Greek Orthodox Archdiocese...it clearly states that a Resolution for this purpose was made!

These facts were further verified and expanded upon by the GOA in the 14 July edition of The New York Times .  I also included a copy of that article on our website.  Note: a copy of the NYT artlicle can be obtained from any large public library's reference department! 

I personally called the Greek Archdiocese and wrote to Fr. Stephanopoulos for a copy of the Resolution...they would not reply.

"...if any man preach any other Gospel unto you...let him be acursed."   St. Paul to the Galatians (1:7-9)

Offline serb1389

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Regarding a married priest being consecrated to the Sacred Episcopacy...please...thoroughly...review our website.

Is it so difficult to see the Truths contained in Sacred Scripture, the Early Church and in the lives of the Saints?

Specifically, in our present day, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America made a formal petition to the
Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople to allow the consecration of married men to be bishops!

Furthermore, as documented in the Greek Orthodox Observer and as reported in The New York Times, Canon Law
allows jurisdictions to act on this discipline since it is an Apostolic Doctrine.

One fundamental Truth remains..."God DOES NOT contradict Himself!"

** An official request has been made to substantiate the claims upon the GOA **

www.orthodoxchurchofamerica.org


At the bottomn of the "married Bishops" tab there is an image of an Orthodox Observer Article detailing a resolution passed by  Clergy Laity Congress of the GOA officially asking the Ecumenical Patriarchate to consider married Bishops. 

Link has been used with permission.  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:47:43 PM by serb1389 »
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I understand your comments and thank you for kindness in your reply.  If you do a Google search using our name you will see that the OCA is the site that brought up... is does not distinguish between the "of" or "in" in the names.  Ours is found more easily under a search for the Standing Episcopal Conference of Orthodox Bishops (SEC).  I, too, appreciate your concern for possible confusion and will see what we can do to alleviate present or future problems.  Thank you and God Bless You!

I realize you haven't posted on this forum since June 13, 2011; but in the event that you see this message, I'm wondering if you would explain the word Canonical in the name UAOC-Canonical. (To me it seems like a Presbyterian church putting the word Methodist in their name.)
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline mike

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It's larping.
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