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Author Topic: Greek & Apostolic Orthodox Query  (Read 4665 times) Average Rating: 0
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silver3l
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« on: April 18, 2011, 08:06:07 AM »

Hi

I stumbled upon this forum while trying to research some information on the differences between Greek orthodox (old calendar) and Armenian Apostolic Orthodox so thought I would raise my questions here.
To give some back round I am Greek and have being seeing a Armenian girl and lately have been trying to research Apostolic Orthodox to gain a better understanding on what situations may arise if we decide to get married.
Currently I haven't been able to gather enough information to satisfy my self as I keep reading about the history of each and it appears there is some division but to what extent I don't know. Quite possible the information I want could be staring me in the face but It just doesn't make sense to me.

To make a long story short I wanted to know what each churchs opinion is on getting married in one another and if there is any objections what the reasons would be.

Any assistance would be great.

Thanks
John

Ps I know I should also speak to my priest and I will when the time comes, just want a bit of a heads up on the matter.
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 02:12:05 AM »

No one has any input?
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 02:50:42 AM »

I would say that the Greek side is going to be the uncompromising one. The Armenians I think generally don't see our division as substantial and will welcome Greeks to commune. It doesn't work the other way around, and so if you want to remain in good standing with the Greek Church then you should get married in a Greek church, not an Armenian. But I don't know how all of this works in reality. As you already said, ask your priest.
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 08:40:04 AM »

If marriage is a serious consideration, you and your prospective bride may wish to study together the two faiths, discuss the differences, and determine which one you believe to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Then, decide to both be of the same faith so that your marriage and future offspring (if it be God's will) will also be brought up in one faith.  This would be the very best way, if you both are willing. 

Otherwise, you could both remain as you are, in different faiths, and discuss the matter with your respective priests to see if they will marry you, and what the implications of such a marriage might be for the participation of you, your wife, and future offspring (if it be God's will) in the life of your respective churches.  One thing to keep in mind, however, is that some Orthodox priests (I'm not sure about Armenian) or jurisdictions may be very, very lenient in the matter, and just allow your prospective bride to receive the mysteries and fully participate in the church.  Some more traditional Orthodox priests and jurisdictions, however, would consider your wife to belong to a heretical group and would not let her receive the sacraments.  So, it is important to keep in mind that even if your particular priest is very lenient and acts like there is no difference between Orthodox and Armenians, this could be a serious issue if you ever move to a new area, or if you wish to attend another Orthodox Church as a family. 
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 09:21:28 AM »

Don't cave to the pressure and stick to your guns. Wink This decision will effect your whole life and your mama's life too. angel It's a decision best made before you move forward into marriage. I don't think you will have a problem convincing her to go Greek. Unless she looks like Kim Kardashian. Than I and The GOC will be praying heavily for you not to fall. If you do I and probably god wouldn't blame you at all.  laugh Seriously though. There are differences which I'm sure many here will point out. My best advice to you is to heed these words. Zito i Ellas.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 09:48:34 AM »

So everyone is telling him to "stick to his guns" and "stay Greek" but no one has outlined the differences between the two faiths and why the GOC is the true church.

Basically he is no further along in his query now than he was when the thread began.

All he's had thrown at him is a bunch of Hellenism.

And he shouldn't convert to the Armenian Church unless she looks like Kim Kardashian? Seriously? So leave what is the true faith if she has a hot a**? I find that offensive to both the Armenian Church and women in general.

I'm really disappointed in the members of this forum at the moment.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 10:13:12 AM »

Hm, I think the actual differences are difficult and complicated to explain. What John is likely to hear from his own (old calendarist) church is that the Armenians are monophysites who teach that Christ only has one divine nature. An overview (which I'm not personally endorsing) can be found here: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_share.aspx Leaving aside the problem of whether that is an accurate characterization (there are many long threads devoted to these questions), the fact is that his church and her church are not in communion, whether or not the theological differences are substantial. As Alveus pointed out, the Greeks are more likely to be unyielding than the Armenians. It's possible that they could get married in the Greek church and she could still commune in her Armenian church (I'm not sure about this though). Chances are, if they get married in the Armenian church, John will not be allowed to commune in his own church until it is rectified in a way that satisfies his pastors.
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »

I appreciate all the advice given even the humor haha.
I did read about the divine nature difference but didn't understand it all that well.

As mentioned by some members it is an old calendar church and my priest is very kind but also strict. Currently my partner does not want to convert although thus could change in time.
The other things that have come to mind are one of us getting baptised iN the other church and then getting re babtised. I dont feel comfortable with it because I feel like I shouldn't manipulate things for my own gain.

As for kids in the future we could baptise them in different churches until they are old enough to make their own decision.

It is a bit fiddly but I know I have found the right woman for me so I'm sure god willing it will work out.

In the mean time if anyone has something further to add I'm all eyes
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 10:40:28 AM »

As for kids in the future we could baptise them in different churches until they are old enough to make their own decision.

You should decide beforehands.
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 10:45:31 AM »

Forgive me, but in my earlier response I had overlooked the fact that "silver3l" is in a Greek "old calendar" church.  Now, there is more than one such group that he could be referring to, but in general they would not allow you to marry a non-Orthodox person.  Marrying an Orthodox Christian who wants to remain a member of another old calendar jurisdiction that is in communion with the Patriarchates (like ROCOR, MP, Serbian) may be as far as such a priest would be willing to go, and even this would be discouraged.  As far as a Greek Old Calendarist marrying an Armenian, your priest would likely forbid this and insist on baptizing her if she wished to join your group.  As for the differences, a previous poster provided a link that probably covers the differences between Orthodoxy and Armenian faiths sufficiently.  However, the differences between Old Calendarist Orthodoxy (or your particular group within that category) and the Orthodox Church, or your particular group and the Armenians, is another matter entirely.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 06:11:59 PM »

If marriage is a serious consideration, you and your prospective bride may wish to study together the two faiths, discuss the differences, and determine which one you believe to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Then, decide to both be of the same faith so that your marriage and future offspring (if it be God's will) will also be brought up in one faith.  This would be the very best way, if you both are willing.

Very good idea!

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that some Orthodox priests (I'm not sure about Armenian) or jurisdictions may be very, very lenient in the matter, and just allow your prospective bride to receive the mysteries and fully participate in the church.

The Armenians indeed tend to be the most liberal among both EO and OO on this issue.

Orthodox and Armenians

BTW, on this forum this is a rather backwards way of phrasing things. Here, the Armenians are Orthodox and the "Orthodox" are not necessarily.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 06:13:58 PM »

I don't think you will have a problem convincing her to go Greek.

Suggesting that he proselytize for the Chalcedonians is against the rules of this site, and particularly this forum, the Oriental Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 06:15:42 PM »

So everyone is telling him to "stick to his guns" and "stay Greek" but no one has outlined the differences between the two faiths and why the GOC is the true church.

Nor should they in the Oriental Orthodox forum. They are free to make the differences between the two clear, but if anyone is actively trying to propagate their faith tradition, the only side that is allowed to do that here is the OO side.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 06:16:39 PM »

It's possible that they could get married in the Greek church and she could still commune in her Armenian church (I'm not sure about this though).

It's actually likely.
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 06:22:25 PM »

Forgive me, but in my earlier response I had overlooked the fact that "silver3l" is in a Greek "old calendar" church.  Now, there is more than one such group that he could be referring to, but in general they would not allow you to marry a non-Orthodox person.  Marrying an Orthodox Christian who wants to remain a member of another old calendar jurisdiction that is in communion with the Patriarchates (like ROCOR, MP, Serbian) may be as far as such a priest would be willing to go, and even this would be discouraged.  As far as a Greek Old Calendarist marrying an Armenian, your priest would likely forbid this and insist on baptizing her if she wished to join your group.  As for the differences, a previous poster provided a link that probably covers the differences between Orthodoxy and Armenian faiths sufficiently.  However, the differences between Old Calendarist Orthodoxy (or your particular group within that category) and the Orthodox Church, or your particular group and the Armenians, is another matter entirely.

Good point. From an Old Calendar Greek tradition, not only would they certainly not be allowed to be married in the Armenian church, but most likely he wouldn't even be allowed to marry a member of the Armenian church in his own church. She would have to convert to his Old Calendarist Greek church.
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 07:16:47 PM »

Is communion that same in both churches?
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 07:17:43 PM »

The other things that have come to mind are one of us getting baptised iN the other church and then getting re babtised. I dont feel comfortable with it because I feel like I shouldn't manipulate things for my own gain.

As for kids in the future we could baptise them in different churches until they are old enough to make their own decision.

Hi John.

I've been avoiding responding because I didn't want to give you any information that might be completely wrong or even mostly-right but misleading in its nuances.

However, I feel qualified to comment on the part of your post I have quoted: this is absolutely a no-no. There are so many scriptural and patristic injunctions against baptising twice. Also, both the Armenian Apostolic and Greek Orthodox Churches teach that divine grace is received at baptism, we are buried and rise with the Lord and we are mystically washed clean. Playing around with baptism is very close to blasphemy, if it doesn't outright cross that line. You are very right to feel uncomfortable with this.
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 09:01:10 PM »

To make a long story short I wanted to know what each churchs opinion is on getting married in one another and if there is any objections what the reasons would be.

The Armenian Church would likely not object to you marrying her, but Old Cal Greek may object.  In either case, they'll both consider the prospect of an Eastern Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) to Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc.) marriage as second best to an inner-communion (EO to EO, OO to OO) marriage, leagues better than an EO/OO to RC (or EO/OO to Protestant) marriage.
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 09:10:45 PM »

I don't think you will have a problem convincing her to go Greek.

Suggesting that he proselytize for the Chalcedonians is against the rules of this site, and particularly this forum, the Oriental Orthodox forum.

Technically, it could be said he is just suggesting a solution to the situation presented by our new member.

Still, I'd like to ask some of our EO friends to cool it a bit.  

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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 09:27:39 PM »

Silver,

Welcome to the forum!    Smiley

Your issue, as you can see, is complicated.  The Greeks and Armenians have much in common, but our Churches have not been in communion with each other since the early sixth century.

Regarding the differences between our Churches, I would say they are mostly linguistic, historical, and cultural.  We use different language to describe Christ, but most theologians who have studied the issue now say we mean the same thing.
 
Someone above suggested you look at an article on a website called orthodoxinfo.com.  I have to tell you, though, that much of what that website says about the Oriental Orthodox is untrue.  Other threads have dealt with that, so I don't want to rehash all of that here.

In the end, you have to discuss this with your girlfriend and with your priest.  All I can suggest in the meantime is to pray about it.
 
One website you may want to explore is the following:

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/

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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 09:43:21 PM »

Is communion that same in both churches?

What exactly do you mean?
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2011, 09:46:14 PM »

Technically, it could be said he is just suggesting a solution to the situation presented by our new member.

They're not mutually exclusive. They are suggesting he try to convert her to Eastern Orthodoxy, which is proselytism as a solution.
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2011, 09:48:46 PM »

To make a long story short I wanted to know what each churchs opinion is on getting married in one another and if there is any objections what the reasons would be.

I'll repeat what others have said:  The Armenian Church is pretty liberal on these matters and would have no problem marrying you.  In fact, if you are EO you can commune in the Armenian Church without first being rebaptized, or anything.

Your Church, however, is more strict on these matters.  If you married or communed in an Armenian Church, you may be excommunicating yourself from your own Church.
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2011, 09:52:30 PM »

Technically, it could be said he is just suggesting a solution to the situation presented by our new member.

They're not mutually exclusive. They are suggesting he try to convert her to Eastern Orthodoxy, which is proselytism as a solution.

I don't see it as a violation.  If you really disagree with me on this, and it bothers you, then you can report the post.  Other moderators may agree with you.
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2011, 10:02:57 PM »

Currently I haven't been able to gather enough information to satisfy my self as I keep reading about the history of each and it appears there is some division but to what extent I don't know. Quite possible the information I want could be staring me in the face but It just doesn't make sense to me.

I did read about the divine nature difference but didn't understand it all that well.

The division is a 1500+ year old matter that has led two Eastern Christian communities, the Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greeks, Romanians, Serbians, etc.) and the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Syrian, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc.) to regard each other as two different faith traditions and consequentially to refrain from sharing Sacraments with each other. Recently there has been much study of the old notion of the doctrine being different, but nonetheless it has not reached a point where the general sharing of Sacraments has been restored.

The historical division regarding doctrinal language (and perhaps substance) was a matter of how the Church explained the nature of Christ. There is one school which used the term "nature" to refer to particular entities (Peter, Paul, Mary, etc.), and another school which used the term to refer to classes of entities (humanity, divinity, etc.). As such, the former school said that Christ had one nature and the latter said that Christ had two natures. Originally the Orthodox Church sided with the one nature formulation. A certain portion stuck with this formulation. A large proportion of Christendom a little later adopted a modified form of the two nature formula. The one nature party rejected this new formula and claimed it was dividing Christ into two entities. The two nature party claimed that the one nature party's rejection of their new formula was an indication that they did not believe in the complete divinity and humanity of Christ. Regarding each other as heretics they broke communion with each other. For about 200 years (from about 450 to about 650 AD) they engaged in polemics with each other trying to win over a greater portion of Christendom to their confession. At the end of this period, with the rise of Islam, the one nature party fell out of contact with the other and they simply went their separate ways for the next 1200-1300 years.

The historical one nature party is represented by the Oriental Orthodox I first mentioned in my post (which your Armenian partner is part of) while the two nature party is represented by your own confession, the Eastern Orthodox.

Does that help your understanding at all? I tried to keep the language simple.
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2011, 10:04:22 PM »

If you married or communed in an Armenian Church, you may be excommunicating yourself from your own Church.

Make that most likely would be (though I won't go so far as to say certainly).
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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2011, 10:26:08 PM »

So everyone is telling him to "stick to his guns" and "stay Greek" but no one has outlined the differences between the two faiths and why the GOC is the true church.

Basically he is no further along in his query now than he was when the thread began.

All he's had thrown at him is a bunch of Hellenism.

And he shouldn't convert to the Armenian Church unless she looks like Kim Kardashian? Seriously? So leave what is the true faith if she has a hot a**? I find that offensive to both the Armenian Church and women in general.

I'm really disappointed in the members of this forum at the moment.

Funny how the most anti-Oriental Orthodox people are willing to relent in the case of Kim Kardashian.  Odd, really.    Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2011, 10:31:37 PM »

John,

I don't think the Oriental Orthodox in this forum understand where you are coming from as a Greek Old Calendarist.  The Greek Old Calendarists are not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox.  Since they are not in communion with, or recognized by, the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Patriarchates, I'm not sure if the Armenians would handle the situation in the same way with John as the situation might be handled if he were in the Eastern Orthodox Church.  

John, before understanding the differences between the Eastern Orthodox and Armenians, you should probably try to understand the difference between the Greek Old Calendarists and the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Struggle to find the truth of where the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is to be found.  Seek diligently and humbly, pray that God will enlighten you and your prospective spouse, and as you seek God will enlighten you both as to what path to follow.  Obviously, speaking to your respective priests is also very critical.
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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2011, 10:37:21 PM »

I don't think the Oriental Orthodox in this forum understand where you are coming from as a Greek Old Calendarist.

We do, which is precisely why we have pointed out how unlikely this marriage would be without his Armenian partner converting.

The Greek Old Calendarists are not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox.

You are part of essentially the same doctrine tradition and therefore the Old Calendarists are quite often understood to be a schismatic form of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 10:47:32 PM »

So everyone is telling him to "stick to his guns" and "stay Greek" but no one has outlined the differences between the two faiths and why the GOC is the true church.

Basically he is no further along in his query now than he was when the thread began.

All he's had thrown at him is a bunch of Hellenism.

And he shouldn't convert to the Armenian Church unless she looks like Kim Kardashian? Seriously? So leave what is the true faith if she has a hot a**? I find that offensive to both the Armenian Church and women in general.

I'm really disappointed in the members of this forum at the moment.

Funny how the most anti-Oriental Orthodox people are willing to relent in the case of Kim Kardashian.  Odd, really.    Cheesy

Salpy, at the risk of derailing the thread, did you hear about her appearing on the cover of Turkish Cosmo?
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 10:57:46 PM »

Yes.

Funny how the most anti-Armenian people are willing to relent in the case of Kim Kardashian.  Odd, really.     Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 11:12:42 PM »

I don't think the Oriental Orthodox in this forum understand where you are coming from as a Greek Old Calendarist.

We do, which is precisely why we have pointed out how unlikely this marriage would be without his Armenian partner converting.

Or he could convert, if he were willing to leave his current Church.

Really, this is for him and his partner to figure out.  They each need to explore how attached they are to their own Church, how involved their families are with their Church, how this would affect their families, etc.

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The Greek Old Calendarists are not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox.

You are part of essentially the same doctrine tradition and therefore the Old Calendarists are quite often understood to be a schismatic form of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yeah, I don't get what jah is saying here.  I thought that on some level they were both EO.
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 11:16:25 PM »


I don't think the Oriental Orthodox in this forum understand where you are coming from as a Greek Old Calendarist.  The Greek Old Calendarists are not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox.  Since they are not in communion with, or recognized by, the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Patriarchates, I'm not sure if the Armenians would handle the situation in the same way with John as the situation might be handled if he were in the Eastern Orthodox Church.  


I don't think his being an Old Calendarist EO, as opposed to a World Orthodox EO, would make much difference to an Armenian priest.  I could be wrong, but I don't see an Armenian priest withholding communion from either.  It's not really our business to get involved with the internal arguments or schisms of the EO's.
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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2011, 11:27:22 PM »

Just for the record, I want to apologize, I didn't realize this thread was in the Oriental Orthodox forum when I posted earlier.

I mean no offense to my OO brothers and sisters. Smiley I wasn't trying to say anyone should leave any of their faith traditions, nor was I trying to put down the Armenian Orthodox.
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 11:28:24 PM »

Or he could convert, if he were willing to leave his current Church.

Good point.  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 11:29:11 PM »

Just for the record, I want to apologize, I didn't realize this thread was in the Oriental Orthodox forum when I posted earlier.

I mean no offense to my OO brothers and sisters. Smiley I wasn't trying to say anyone should leave any of their faith traditions, nor was I trying to put down the Armenian Orthodox.

 Grin
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2011, 11:54:15 PM »

Just for the record, I want to apologize, I didn't realize this thread was in the Oriental Orthodox forum when I posted earlier.

I mean no offense to my OO brothers and sisters. Smiley I wasn't trying to say anyone should leave any of their faith traditions, nor was I trying to put down the Armenian Orthodox.

We're cool.  Don't worry.   Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2011, 12:19:19 AM »

So leave what is the true faith if she has a hot a**?.
Whoa! Didn't see that coming.

For the record, I think I've posted on how the Kardeshians disgust me.  The mother once tried to pick up a priest for her daughter.
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2011, 12:31:57 AM »

Guess I am really outta the loop as I don't who Kim Kardeshian is. Media fasting for a long time is great.

Odd what gets through and what doesn't.
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2011, 12:40:02 AM »

For the record, neither Kim Kardashian nor her mother were raised in the Armenian Church. 
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2011, 01:22:31 AM »

For the record, neither Kim Kardashian nor her mother were raised in the Armenian Church. 

I must the confess the sin of relief at hearing that.  laugh Sad
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2011, 08:26:10 AM »

For the record, neither Kim Kardashian nor her mother were raised in the Armenian Church. 

I must the confess the sin of relief at hearing that.  laugh Sad

Me too!
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2011, 08:43:06 AM »

Here is a true Armenian beauty; very moving and powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Y9yzTxCfw
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2011, 07:09:11 PM »

For the record, neither Kim Kardashian nor her mother were raised in the Armenian Church. 

I must the confess the sin of relief at hearing that.  laugh Sad

LOL. That made me sound so ESL.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2011, 03:53:40 PM »

Dear John,

First of all, should you decide to marry, may I wish you a truly happy and blessed marriage - regardless of in which church you marry.

Secondly, as you have probably seen by now, the mess our churches are in is very sad - in times when militant atheism and aggressive materialism are threatening all churches we continue splitting hairs and being at each others throats. God have mercy on us for trampling on John 17:20-23.

As far as I know, you are welcome to marry in the Armenian Church - how your church would react I don't know, and can only wish your church the fullness of the spirit and not the letter,

Yours truly,
e
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