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Author Topic: Let us love one another that with one mind we may confess  (Read 1943 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 17, 2011, 10:20:59 PM »

I did a quick search but couldn't find anything on topic.

I would like to know whether your parish does anything in particular when the celebrant intones "let us love one another that with one mind we may confess" during the liturgy, before the creed.

I understand that the clergy at the altar exchange the kiss of peace while the choir replies "father, son and holy spirit, one in essence" and that it was previously the custom for the laity to also do so.

I am wondering whether this practice has been revived in some places, as I have only my own narrow experience to judge by.

I think it is a beautiful practice.
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 10:40:34 PM »

It has indeed been revived, if it ever truly died out at all. It is common in many convert parishes here in America, like the one I attend.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:40:45 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 10:52:33 PM »

My most common experience in the past year has been with the Armenian rite, so what I have to account is not the same as the Constantinopolitan rite you are thinking of. In the Armenian rite the Kiss of Peace comes after the Creed, and the call for the Kiss of Peace is a different phrasing. But yes, an actual greeting is made between the congregants. It is a two-cheek kiss, though physical contact is not actually made (I don't know why this is). However, this might be different in different regions.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:59:16 PM »

Glory to God!

Do Anglo-Americans tend to freak out a little bit about kissing people they don't necessarily know?

The kiss of peace is not exchanged in any parish I have attended, which I think is sad. Insisting on the kiss might go some way to dispelling the judgmental and disapproving glares of some of the people in my parish -- it's a bit harder to show disapproval of someone while kissing them, right?
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 11:03:23 PM »

Glory to God!

Do Anglo-Americans tend to freak out a little bit about kissing people they don't necessarily know?
In my parish, the kiss is made with cheek-touching like Deusveritasest described. Only some bold Old-World parishioners actually kiss cheeks with people. Tongue Hopefully as the century rolls on, more people will join them and muster up the courage to accept and give kisses Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 11:10:07 PM »

The parishes I've been to, when they do anything at all it's usually just a round of hand-shaking.
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 11:14:38 PM »

At my church we kiss and/or hug one another, depending on how well we know the person next to us. Visitors get a handshake or a light kiss or touch on each cheek, while we say something like "Christ is in our midst" or "Christ is Risen" or "Christ is born."

Most visitors are pleasantly surprised. We just don't seem to be used to simple demonstrations of affection any more.
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 11:25:28 PM »

 Huh I've seen that up at the altar amongst the clergy ,never amongst the parishoners in the Serbian Church......
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 11:29:38 PM »

At the Parishes I've attended the peace is always done. What is done depends on what the people in the Parish feel comfortable doing. I wasn't aware this wasn't universal, its one of the few things that had continuity from my old Anglican upbringing.
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 01:48:56 AM »

I did a quick search but couldn't find anything on topic.

I would like to know whether your parish does anything in particular when the celebrant intones "let us love one another that with one mind we may confess" during the liturgy, before the creed.

I understand that the clergy at the altar exchange the kiss of peace while the choir replies "father, son and holy spirit, one in essence" and that it was previously the custom for the laity to also do so.

I am wondering whether this practice has been revived in some places, as I have only my own narrow experience to judge by.

I think it is a beautiful practice.
I'm aware that not every church in my city has the laity exchange the kiss of peace, a fact to which my church has to adjust when we have a visiting priest celebrating the Liturgy. However, in my church the laity do exchange the kiss of peace before the Creed, which I think is a beautiful practice.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 01:59:17 AM »

I did a quick search but couldn't find anything on topic.

I would like to know whether your parish does anything in particular when the celebrant intones "let us love one another that with one mind we may confess" during the liturgy, before the creed.

I understand that the clergy at the altar exchange the kiss of peace while the choir replies "father, son and holy spirit, one in essence" and that it was previously the custom for the laity to also do so.

I am wondering whether this practice has been revived in some places, as I have only my own narrow experience to judge by.

I think it is a beautiful practice.

Our Parish does it as well, although the actually kiss (whether twice on the cheek or three times) isn't exchanged, as we are still Americans and are a bit uncomfortable with it.

The way we do it is like this:
Priest - Let us love one another that with one mind and heart we may confess"
People - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one in essence
Priest - Christ is in our midst!
People - He is and ever shall be!
(the Kiss of Peace is exchanged)
Priest - The doors the doors! In wisdom let us be attentive!
All together recite the Creed.

The kiss of peace in our parish is just everyone exchanging the greeting "Christ is in our midst"
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 03:24:44 AM »

Do Anglo-Americans tend to freak out a little bit about kissing people they don't necessarily know?

Definitely. The most intimate greeting among strangers or mere acquaintances I usually see around here is hugging.

The kiss of peace is not exchanged in any parish I have attended, which I think is sad. Insisting on the kiss might go some way to dispelling the judgmental and disapproving glares of some of the people in my parish -- it's a bit harder to show disapproval of someone while kissing them, right?

Agreed.
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 03:26:15 AM »

In my parish, the kiss is made with cheek-touching like Deusveritasest described.

Unfortunately in my case there isn't usually even contact made on the cheeks.  Undecided
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 03:36:44 AM »

I did a quick search but couldn't find anything on topic.

I would like to know whether your parish does anything in particular when the celebrant intones "let us love one another that with one mind we may confess" during the liturgy, before the creed.

I understand that the clergy at the altar exchange the kiss of peace while the choir replies "father, son and holy spirit, one in essence" and that it was previously the custom for the laity to also do so.

I am wondering whether this practice has been revived in some places, as I have only my own narrow experience to judge by.

I think it is a beautiful practice.

The only time I have ever experienced any kind of exchange was at two separate Antiochian parishes. One actually had a "kiss of peace" exchange between the laity, and the second was just a shaking of hands with an exchange of "Christ is in our midst!" "He is and always will be!" between parishioners.
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 03:41:48 AM »

Glory to God!

Do Anglo-Americans tend to freak out a little bit about kissing people they don't necessarily know?

The kiss of peace is not exchanged in any parish I have attended, which I think is sad. Insisting on the kiss might go some way to dispelling the judgmental and disapproving glares of some of the people in my parish -- it's a bit harder to show disapproval of someone while kissing them, right?

Although I'm "cradle" Orthodox and know that kissing is part of both Slavic and Greek culture (even outside of Liturgy), the American in me still freaks out when a stranger kisses me. My sister and I were discussing this tonight (prior to reading this topic) and even amongst her Russian-American friends at Church, kissing and hugging strangers just feels "weird."

Right or wrong, Americans have a larger personal space than other cultures. That's something that is next to impossible to overcome when it's what you've been raised with.
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 09:23:20 AM »

Right or wrong, Americans have a larger personal space than other cultures. That's something that is next to impossible to overcome when it's what you've been raised with.

No judgment, here.

If it was up to me, we'd have more bowing! Church is one of the few places I can bow and not feel completely out of place.

Then again, if it were up to me we'd all be wearing kimono.
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 10:14:34 AM »

Huh I've seen that up at the altar amongst the clergy ,never amongst the parishoners in the Serbian Church......

Me neither with the Carpatho-Rusyns or Ukrainains. Much as I hate to say this, most of my friends ( and myself for that matter) at the parish and around the parishes I am familiar with, would regard this as a Catholic innovation or a Latinization which is like waving a red flag in front of a bull given our history with the Greek Catholics. I know that this is probably not an accurate assessment of the history of the Kiss of Peace, but it certainly would be regarded as an innovation in most places.
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 10:52:46 AM »

Huh I've seen that up at the altar amongst the clergy ,never amongst the parishoners in the Serbian Church......

Me neither with the Carpatho-Rusyns or Ukrainains.

Whenever there is a "syleitourgo" (Divine Liturgy with multiple clergy), there should be a Kiss of Peace exchanged amongst the clergy, according to rank. It's spelled out in all the rubrics I've seen in modern printed editions of liturgical books (Greek and Slavonic).

Typically, the clergy line up and cycle around the altar, so to speak. Upon meeting, they kiss each other's shoulders and then each other's right hands (if of the same rank). It looks something like this:





When there are liturgies with 50+ clergy con-celebrating (e.g. at any of the Patriarchal cathedrals), this can take quite a while.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2011, 12:02:31 PM »

Huh I've seen that up at the altar amongst the clergy ,never amongst the parishoners in the Serbian Church......

Me neither with the Carpatho-Rusyns or Ukrainains.

Whenever there is a "syleitourgo" (Divine Liturgy with multiple clergy), there should be a Kiss of Peace exchanged amongst the clergy, according to rank. It's spelled out in all the rubrics I've seen in modern printed editions of liturgical books (Greek and Slavonic).

Typically, the clergy line up and cycle around the altar, so to speak. Upon meeting, they kiss each other's shoulders and then each other's right hands (if of the same rank). It looks something like this:





When there are liturgies with 50+ clergy con-celebrating (e.g. at any of the Patriarchal cathedrals), this can take quite a while.

Let me clarify, of course the Kiss of Peace is exchanged as above by the clergy.
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2011, 12:10:03 PM »

Me neither with the Carpatho-Rusyns or Ukrainains. Much as I hate to say this, most of my friends ( and myself for that matter) at the parish and around the parishes I am familiar with, would regard this as a Catholic innovation or a Latinization which is like waving a red flag in front of a bull given our history with the Greek Catholics. I know that this is probably not an accurate assessment of the history of the Kiss of Peace, but it certainly would be regarded as an innovation in most places.

According to the earliest sources (i.e. second through fourth century) the Kiss of Peace came after the official ending of the Liturgy of the Word. It was a natural time to say hello, as the deacons went to grab the bread and wine, and everyone transitioned into position for the anaphora/eucharist. Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

This practice became highly stylized, and, eventually, fell out of use in both East and West by the 13th century. According to the EO liturgical books, only the clergy continue to observe it among their own ranks.

The Roman missal began to call for a Kiss of Peace for the laity in 1970, so it's a "renovation" in the Latin world as well. There had been several generations of theologians who had been writing about how its reintroduction would be an important step toward reinvigorating everyone's sense of the priesthood of the laity. Among the Orthodox these theologians included Fr Nicholas Afanasiev. Some OCA and Antiochian parishes in North America have been observing a Kiss of Peace for the laity since the early 1970s, since, in a lot of ways, Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff are Afanasiev translated into English.

Of course, the renovation advocated by SVS in the 70s and on, is only partial (going back to a seventh century example instead of a second century one), and it uses a formula introduced for the clergy much, much later than that ("Christ is in our midst" instead of "Peace be with you," the actual formula used even as late as the 10th century). That's the problem with renovations in practice: They never actually recover the past. And the past, history, and tradition are three different things anyway.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2011, 12:34:33 PM »

My parish doesn't practice the kiss of peace amongst the laity. Which makes me sad. I agree that it is a beautiful practice.

I am glad, however, to hear from you all how many parishes here in the States do exchange the kiss of peace. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2011, 03:07:17 PM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2011, 04:21:31 PM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

It's the same even in big churches in Greece... Well, for the most part...
In Greece women sit on the left, men on the right... Usually the women's side fills up first, and so the women spill out into the men's side.
Some automatically sit on the men's side with their husbands or boyfriends, or because they know the women's side will fill up.
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 04:43:54 AM »

I guess that means,Theres More pious woman than Men....Heavan will have I believe more woman and very few men... Grin



Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

It's the same even in big churches in Greece... Well, for the most part...
In Greece women sit on the left, men on the right... Usually the women's side fills up first, and so the women spill out into the men's side.
Some automatically sit on the men's side with their husbands or boyfriends, or because they know the women's side will fill up.
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 06:29:41 AM »

I guess that means,Theres More pious woman than Men....Heavan will have I believe more woman and very few men... Grin



Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

It's the same even in big churches in Greece... Well, for the most part...
In Greece women sit on the left, men on the right... Usually the women's side fills up first, and so the women spill out into the men's side.
Some automatically sit on the men's side with their husbands or boyfriends, or because they know the women's side will fill up.
No it doesn't mean that... I've heard in Greece that women indeed outlive the men.
Also, not meaning to offend women, but it's the women in the Churches here that talk during the service, most (of course, not all) of the men keep quiet.
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 09:19:06 AM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 07:44:28 PM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.

I say this with the greatest esteem for our OO brothers and sisters, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with this sort of practice.

Sure, women and men intermingling could cause some to stumble, but almost everything can cause some class of person to stumble. This is one of the reasons so many protestants use grape juice for their "eucharists" -- to avoid leading alcoholics into sin.

I, for one, am very thankful for my friendships with Christian women and am glad for the opportunity to share worship with them.

I stand to be corrected, of course!
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2011, 01:30:39 AM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.

I say this with the greatest esteem for our OO brothers and sisters, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with this sort of practice.

Sure, women and men intermingling could cause some to stumble, but almost everything can cause some class of person to stumble. This is one of the reasons so many protestants use grape juice for their "eucharists" -- to avoid leading alcoholics into sin.

I, for one, am very thankful for my friendships with Christian women and am glad for the opportunity to share worship with them.

I stand to be corrected, of course!

Thing is though, men and women were separated for many centuries in the Orthodox Church, it wasn't till very recently that it has ceased. Originally in Churches (that is, post-Constantine), women occupied the 2nd level in the clerestory above the main level of the Church, that also included the Empress.
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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2011, 10:04:41 AM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.

I say this with the greatest esteem for our OO brothers and sisters, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with this sort of practice.

Sure, women and men intermingling could cause some to stumble, but almost everything can cause some class of person to stumble. This is one of the reasons so many protestants use grape juice for their "eucharists" -- to avoid leading alcoholics into sin.

I, for one, am very thankful for my friendships with Christian women and am glad for the opportunity to share worship with them.

I stand to be corrected, of course!

Thing is though, men and women were separated for many centuries in the Orthodox Church, it wasn't till very recently that it has ceased. Originally in Churches (that is, post-Constantine), women occupied the 2nd level in the clerestory above the main level of the Church, that also included the Empress.

I was born in the mid-1950's in Pennsylvania. The separation of the genders in Slavic parishes by means of a "mens' side" and a "womens' side" of the Church was the norm during my youth. In most churches with pews installed prior to the 1960's, you will still find 'hat clips' on the right side of the nave pews which were installed to hold men's fedoras! The cantors, all men, would chant from the front right pew or a 'kliros' if one was placed to the right of the amvon.

This began to break down during the 1970's as the immigrant generation passed on, but you will still see a predominance of one gender over the other along these old traditional lines in many parishes of ACROD, the UOC and the OCA in the northeast. I can't speak for other traditions, but I suspect the same held true.

To the modern eye, it seems odd not to see whole families together in Church, but that's the way it was not so long ago.
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 09:36:47 PM »

I understand that this practice is very ancient and in many places continued until recent times.

I do not judge any parish that continues to observe this kind of segregation. It just makes me personally uncomfortable, being a man who forms friendships with women quite readily and is even a bit intimidated by other men. I guess I am just thankful that one day I will have the freedom to worship with my wife and children by my side, if I should so desire.

Forgive me if I am causing controversy, but I am uncomfortable with the idea that any given man must be so sexually motivated that he can't be trusted to have his heart on high with the Lord while a modestly dressed woman worships beside him. Is this really the way the male psyche works? It is not my own experience. Sometimes, I even wonder why we can't have mixed-gender monasteries!

Perhaps there are better reasons for observing this practice that I am simply ignorant of.
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 10:10:45 PM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.

What percent of churches were big enough for that to even be possible?  Huh

I can imagine that with something like Hagia Sophia, but most churches I can't.
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 10:12:16 PM »

Keep in mind that the worship space was highly segregated by ecclesiastical "rank" and sex, so you'd really only be greeting your same-sex peers.

From what I have seen, this is still the practice in the African OO churches.

I mean HIGHLY segregated, as in separated by walls, partitions, and balustrades, with separate entrances, stair cases, and, in some cases, ancillary rooms.

I say this with the greatest esteem for our OO brothers and sisters, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with this sort of practice.

Sure, women and men intermingling could cause some to stumble, but almost everything can cause some class of person to stumble. This is one of the reasons so many protestants use grape juice for their "eucharists" -- to avoid leading alcoholics into sin.

I, for one, am very thankful for my friendships with Christian women and am glad for the opportunity to share worship with them.

I stand to be corrected, of course!

I agree with you entirely. Even when I was more set in my journey towards Oriental Orthodoxy, I still felt comfortable being critical of numerous cultural pieties like this.
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 10:16:06 PM »

To the modern eye, it seems odd not to see whole families together in Church, but that's the way it was not so long ago.

I'm sure there were a number of other contexts where many other contexts where families were divided in favor of grouping my gender, class, or friendship.
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2011, 08:39:46 AM »

To the modern eye, it seems odd not to see whole families together in Church, but that's the way it was not so long ago.

I'm sure there were a number of other contexts where many other contexts where families were divided in favor of grouping my gender, class, or friendship.

Indeed, my father told me that when he was a boy in New Jersey during the 1920's, the families would walk to Church with the father standing alone and apart with the wife and children following behind.
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« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2011, 11:05:19 AM »

To the modern eye, it seems odd not to see whole families together in Church, but that's the way it was not so long ago.

I'm sure there were a number of other contexts where many other contexts where families were divided in favor of grouping my gender, class, or friendship.

Indeed, my father told me that when he was a boy in New Jersey during the 1920's, the families would walk to Church with the father standing alone and apart with the wife and children following behind.
As recently as the late 1950s/early 60s when I was young, I remember in my Protestant church that at Communion all would gather at the front of the church - men on the right and women on the left.
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2011, 02:06:46 PM »

What percent of churches were big enough for that to even be possible?  Huh

I can imagine that with something like Hagia Sophia, but most churches I can't.

Well, I can think of probably several dozen or so off the top of my head that have these characteristics. Constantine's basilica at Trier is quite spartan, but many extant churches from the fourth through seventh centuries make use of aisles, transept spaces, and even balconies that are effectively partitioned off by columns. Multiple doors and rooms are also common. Basically, any town would have a church like this, since public gatherings required strict protection of women from offenses to their honor. Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Constantinople, Rome, Lyons, Milan, Ravenna, Hippo, etc., etc. were not places where a woman would want to mix with men in public, including church. As Chrysostom says, even the kids would show up drunk from the festivities surrounding holidays.

Aside from that, as others have mentioned, the whole idea of fraternization amongst the sexes, even in families, is a recent cultural phenomenon. In many cases, extended families lived together, so it was not unusual for men and women to be segregated even at home. And a good father was stern, quick to the switch, and certainly not emotive or chatty with the lesser members of the household. There are several Russian sayings about good parenting and spousal relations along these lines.
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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2011, 02:09:23 AM »

The practice was deliberately revived in my cathedral parish several years ago. Recently my family moved and we are now attending a smaller parish within the same diocese that does not have the practice, and I can state unequivocally that it is the one thing about my old parish that I do not miss.

In my personal opinion, the attempted revival is a perfect example of badly thought-out 'renovation for renovation's sake'. The practice died out in places where the kissing of cheeks as a form of greeting was culturally 'normal'; I cannot see why on earth anyone thinks it makes sense to try to force it back to life in an American culture which has no such tradition (and as pointed out, which has larger 'personal space' than the Mediterranean cultures where it originally died out). It made it more difficult for me to worship--and had it been in practice the first time I attended an Orthodox Church I might well have never come back.
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