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Author Topic: Papal Liturgy nowadays  (Read 5349 times) Average Rating: 0
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dzheremi
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 05:23:51 PM »

Michał,  I think you've hit on a real issue. It seems others might have it better, but I know that the last location at which I participated in the liturgical life of the Roman Catholic Church this was nowhere near what I witnessed, or could witness on a regular basis. Eventually the Latin Mass was introduced, albeit once a month, at a different church nearby. The problem then becomes that the RC church maintains this idea of "obligation" for every Sunday, meaning that three Sundays of each month were required to be spent engaging in banality for every one spent in a more traditional service. This is part of the reason why I eventually decided I might be better off just attending Byzantine services (though those had their own problems).
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 05:24:10 PM »

Christus resurrexit.
Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
I aim younger. Mark 10:15

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 05:24:59 PM »

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.

I know of no such parish in Poland.

You know that such Internet testimonies really tell us nothing. To get the full picture, we would have to look at some reliable statistics.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 05:26:42 PM »

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.

I know of no such parish in Poland.

You know that such Internet testimonies really tell us nothing. To get the full picture, we would have to look at some reliable statistics.

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?...or that you've never encountered one?

M.
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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 05:33:07 PM »

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?

I don't know what is reverential enough for you, but, AFAIK, there are no parishes in Poland which would offer the NOM in Latin, in Gregorian chant, ad orientem, with six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar, etc., etc.
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2011, 05:43:04 PM »

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

This kind of celebration is rare indeed.  Fr Newman understands liturgy well and has a deep love of sacred music.   He has abolished the ubiquitous "song leader" and developed an outstanding choir.  One often hears about the reform of the reform.  Fr Newman is one of the few parish priests who has actually implemented it at the parochial level.   
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« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

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Thank you for these!
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« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2011, 08:07:23 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

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Wow.

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

I don't know what percent, but keep in mind that there are more than a billion Catholics (in communion with the Vatican) in the world, so even a small percent of Catholics is still a very large number of people.
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« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2011, 08:08:47 PM »

I aim younger. Mark 10:15

I know you are, but what am I?
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« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2011, 08:30:10 PM »

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

This kind of celebration is rare indeed.  Fr Newman understands liturgy well and has a deep love of sacred music.   He has abolished the ubiquitous "song leader" and developed an outstanding choir.  One often hears about the reform of the reform.  Fr Newman is one of the few parish priests who has actually implemented it at the parochial level.   

I think you are right about that but I think you might be surprised by some of the gems you could discover in the foothills of the Alleghenies.   But these are not the only reverential Novus Ordo masses possible.  Some are chanted in English rather than in Latin, for example, and the altar is bare of candles though there is a central crucifix, for another example.  At any rate the Novus Ordo is the normative mass of the Roman rite.
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« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2011, 08:51:00 PM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.

Oh, I don't think they even need special permission to celebrate Mass in any language according to the approved text. In my own Archdiocese of Boston, Mass is celebrated in 20 different languages each week.
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« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2011, 08:56:59 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.
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« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2011, 09:18:56 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.

Please clarify who "he" refers to?


Is the former Church of England Priest Fr. Jay Scott Newman or Fr. Longenecker?

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« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2011, 09:21:41 PM »

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

Indeed. Too much smugness and snark.  Wink

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« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2011, 09:35:14 PM »

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

Indeed. Too much smugness and snark.  Wink


Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.
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« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2011, 09:35:40 PM »

I mean, yeah, things could be better. I usually go to the traditional Latin Mass, but when I don't, I go to a Novus Ordo church for Mass (and adoration, Vespers, etc.).

Yes, it's versus populum(priest facing the people), no candles or crucifix on the altar. The priest doesn't sing his parts. There are other things I could quibble about. But the priests there are orthodox, reverent, and promote holiness. They've also hired a music director who does proper music (chant, polyphony, traditional hymns). There aren't abuses, so I am not distracted while praying at Mass, so I'm grateful.

I'm just a layman, and I have come to realize that I can't just play artistic/liturgical critic everywhere I go. The Mass is the Mass, and there is a time to gripe about the liturgy, but that isn't when I'm supposed to be uniting my heart to the action on the altar.

I know things are bad in many places. It can be trying when I'm traveling to walk into a parish whose pastor allows, encourages, or participates in liturgical abuses that are hard to bear. It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death. By the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste --or foretaste-- of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion. Though always Itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.

Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.
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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2011, 09:43:51 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.

Please clarify who "he" refers to?


Is the former Church of England Priest Fr. Jay Scott Newman or Fr. Longenecker?



Fr. Longenecker---he is American but became Anglican and moved to England to be a CofE priest. He converted to Catholicism and came back to the US and was ordained a few years ago.
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« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2011, 09:46:49 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
How so? It's cute how you protest yet don't elaborate.
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« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2011, 09:56:27 PM »

I would think that this entire site would be all the elaboration of that particular point that anyone could ever need, but maybe not...
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« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."
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« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2011, 10:03:55 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."

Wow, that's only about 7 months away. :thumbsup:

I haven't really been keeping up with such things ... are they still planning to retain "one in being" in the creed?
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« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2011, 10:05:40 PM »

Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.

Dude, are you saying we're heathens?
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« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2011, 10:28:20 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."

Wow, that's only about 7 months away. :thumbsup:

I haven't really been keeping up with such things ... are they still planning to retain "one in being" in the creed?

Heck, no, thank God. It will be replaced by "consubstantial" which comes from the Latin "consubstantialem" which is the synonym for Greek "homoousios".

You can see that change in the Ordinary of the Mass (among many others) in this chart:

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/examples.shtml

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« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2011, 11:34:38 PM »

Christ is risen!
I would think that this entire site would be all the elaboration of that particular point that anyone could ever need, but maybe not...
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« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2011, 11:36:22 PM »

Christ is risen!
Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.

Dude, are you saying we're heathens?
That you are imagining vain things.
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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2011, 08:34:48 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.

Oh, I don't think they even need special permission to celebrate Mass in any language according to the approved text. In my own Archdiocese of Boston, Mass is celebrated in 20 different languages each week.

Well, that's what somebody told me (I guess it was Chris).

In any case, I think the bigger obstacle would be the fact that few Catholics know Greek.
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2011, 08:59:12 AM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai. Note the verb there is proeinai (προείναι), not ekporeuomenon.

in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.

Well, you be the judge of that yourself.
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2011, 09:34:44 AM »

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai.

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh And another thing: what do you mean by "reverse translate"? Let me remind you that the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed is not the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed (although it is based on it), just like the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed is not the Nicean Creed (although it is based on it).
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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.
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« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2011, 04:52:25 PM »

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?

I don't know what is reverential enough for you, but, AFAIK, there are no parishes in Poland which would offer the NOM in Latin, in Gregorian chant, ad orientem, with six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar, etc., etc.

The NOM in Latin is offered in some major churches in Kraków and Warszawa.
The liturgy in Wawel cathedral is normally celebrated ad orientem.

Also, daily masses at my cathedral in Kielce are celebrated at the side altar of Matka Boża Łaskawa ad orientem although Sunday and holyday masses are celebrated at the main altar, in Polish. There are six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar.
Side chapel of Our Gracious Lady, at which Masses are celebrated ad orientem in Kielce

Note: This altar was built in 2000.
On gregorian chant in Poland:
The vernacular Lenten and Easter hymns in Poland are based on gregorian chant.

Although the fact is that, outside of the cathedrals and seminaries, masses are rarely said ad orientem in Poland. Another sad fact is that 1/4 to 1/3 of churches in Poland were built after the council, of which the majority were built after the conservative reign of Primate Wyszyński. These new churches were built exclusively for the Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2011, 05:04:58 PM »

I personally think that, in both east and west too much emphasis is laid on having by the books, stylized liturgies which may sound good on paper, but are hardly possible for the average parish church to put on every Sunday.  Like it or not we are fragile human beings who are prone to make errors and mistakes with things, especially if they are regular occurrences in our lives, such as the liturgy (The old saying "familiarity breads contempt" applies here).  Tolkien comes off to me as a typical British snob when it comes to observations about people and their behavior during Mass.  He would have been better off just praying for his own salvation instead of criticising his fellow parishioners styles of dress and supposed rude habits of worship. 

The idea that there is this "perfect" way to do liturgy and that we laypeople must participate in this supposed worship strikes me as being somewhat elitist, almost gnostic in tone.  Since most Churches do not put on this type of perfect, "Roles Royce" style liturgy that would leave perhaps well over 95% of believers out in the cold.  I just can't fathom this type of egalitarian view regarding Christian worship.
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« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2011, 05:15:12 PM »

Here is a good article written some years ago by an RC priest about the Latin Mass and the "proper" way to celebrate the Liturgy.  I think that it's just as valid for OC's who crave the "liturgically correct" way of doing things over the practical way that most Church services are actually officiated.

http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/3303

The Mass: no way back
John Jay Hughes - 5 July 2003


Elena Curti?s article last week on the old rite of Mass impelled an American priest and church historian to set down his recollections of the past

THE American convert Cardinal Avery Dulles SJ writes of the pre-Vatican II Mass: ?If there be anyone who contends that in order to be converted to the Catholic faith one must be first attracted by the beauty of the liturgy, he will have me to explain away. Filled as I was with a Puritan antipathy toward splendour in religious ritual, I found myself actually repulsed by the elaborate symbolism in which the Holy Sacrifice is clothed.? Accustomed to Presbyterian worship, Dulles says that in the Masses he attended as an undergraduate ?there was little external unity to be discerned. The priest, so far from telling the congregation when to sit or stand or kneel, carried out his tasks almost as though he were alone. The congregation, for their part, were not watching with scrupulous exactitude the movements of the celebrant. Some, on the contrary, were reciting prayers on mysterious strings of beads which Catholics call rosaries. Others were thumbing through pages of prayer-books and missals, which, for all I knew, might have been totally unrelated to the Mass. Not even a hymn was sung to bring unity into this apparently dull and unconnected service.?

Dulles?s experience was also mine ? with the important exception that, as a High Church Anglican, I found Puritanism as off-putting as the old silent Latin Mass was for Dulles. For the first 32 years of my life I was nourished in the Anglican Communion by a liturgy which fulfilled all the postulates of the nascent Catholic liturgical movement (then still suspect in the English-speaking world). Moreover, for six years I had the high privilege, like my father and grandfather before me, of leading the celebration of that liturgy as an Anglican priest. The Elizabethan language we used strikes me now as precious and stilted. But the Eucharist we celebrated was deeply reverent. There was full congregational participation (Catholic references, pre-Vatican II, to ?the dialogue Mass? amused us: we knew no other). There was fervent singing of hymns which I shall miss until the day I die. I heard powerful preaching which moved me then, and moves me still...

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« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2011, 05:18:22 PM »

The NOM in Latin is offered in some major churches in Kraków and Warszawa.
The liturgy in Wawel cathedral is normally celebrated ad orientem.

Good to know. Thanks for the info, synLeszka.
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« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2011, 05:25:37 PM »

Let the Presbyterians and the Anglicans complain. What they have to do with the liturgy of other churches is beyond me. Probably these same people would attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and remain unmoved. What can you say? It takes all kinds. I was raised in the Presbyterian Church and craved the kind of worship they apparently see as anathema. Whose view should determine the celebration? Neither. It would be equally wrong of me to say that my own proclivities are evidence of the health or suitability of a particular mode of celebration, or else all churches would celebrate according to St. Basil. That is clearly not appropriate. Rather a look into history can tell us who is preserving the faith as it was once and for all delivered by the holy apostles, including a proper liturgical life (yes, I maintain that there is such a thing). Surely you are Orthodox for some reason, Robb, and that reason is not to post approvingly the disparaging words of Protestants against the Latins, or the Latins against the Orthodox.
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« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2011, 05:55:08 PM »

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh And another thing: what do you mean by "reverse translate"? Let me remind you that the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed is not the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed (although it is based on it), just like the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed is not the Nicean Creed (although it is based on it).

Because as has been stated many times on this forum, though you missed it, the Latin Catholic Church has conceded the point that in Greek the Filioque is heretical. 

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.

On the basis of Jn 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit “to ek tou PatroV ekporeuomenon” (“who takes his origin from the Father”). The Father alone is the principle without principle (arch anarcoV) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source (phgh) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit therefore takes his origin from the Father alone (ek monou tou PatroV) in a principal, proper and immediate manner.1

The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the "Father's monarchy", and the Western tradition, following St Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father "principaliter", that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, PL 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the "monarchy of the Father" implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or principle (principium) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

This origin of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone as principle of the whole Trinity is called ekporeusiV by Greek tradition, following the Cappadocian Fathers. St Gregory of Nazianzus, the Theologian, in fact, characterizes the Spirit's relationship of origin from the Father by the proper term ekporeusiV, distinguishing it from that of procession (to proienai) which the Spirit has in common with the Son. "The Spirit is truly the Spirit proceeding (proion) from the Father, not by filiation, for it is not by generation, but by ekporeusiV (Discourse 39, 12, Sources chrétiennes 358, p. 175). Even if St Cyril of Alexandria happens at times to apply the verb ekporeusqai the Son's relationship of origin from the Father, he never uses it for the relationship of the Spirit to the Son (Cf. Commentary on St John, X, 2, PG 74, 910D; Ep 55, PG 77, 316 D, etc.). Even for St Cyril, the term ekporeusiV as distinct from the term "proceed" (proienai) can only characterize a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou PatroV kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula to ek tou PatroV ekporeuomenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM



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« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2011, 06:05:16 PM »

Because as has been stated many times on this forum, though you missed it, the Latin Catholic Church has conceded the point that in Greek the Filioque is heretical.

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?
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« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2011, 06:41:30 PM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?
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« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2011, 09:56:11 PM »

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai.

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh

I recall this same question being asked some years ago. As I recall, the conversation kind of broke down at that point.
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« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2011, 11:55:09 PM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.


I think Tolkien would agree with you, Keble. He was suggesting going to one as an exercise, not make it one's regular habit.

I remember his grandson recalling Tolkien taking him to Mass when he was a boy in the early 1970s. The particular Mass they went to was so irreverent that Tolkien walked out in the middle of it.
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« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2011, 12:39:39 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.

The latin church concedes this about a thousand years too late. And they DID REQUIRE the Church to insert it at one point..or at least a Cardinal Humbert did. (whether he had that authority I dont know.)

Humbert himself raised the filioque as an issue, claiming that the East's omission of the word from the Nicene Creed had brought them into serious heresy. On July 16 Humbert and his party entered Hagia Sophia just as the liturgy was to begin and placed the bull of excommunication against Patriarch Michael, Leo of Ohrid, and "all their followers in the aforesaid errors and presumptions" on the altar. While careful to note that "with respect to the pillars of the empire and it's wise and honored citizens, the city is most Christian and orthodox," the bull took direct aim at "Michael, false neophyte patriarch, who only out of human fear assumed the monastic habit, now known notoriously to many because of his extremely wicked crimes." Among these crumes (and there were many) was the charge that Michael and his followers, "like Pneumatomachians or Theoumachians, have deleted from the creed the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son."

One may read the fine details in on google book:

The filioque: history of a doctrinal controversy
 By Anthony Edward Siecienski

http://books.google.com/books?id=auT8VbgOe48C&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=humbert+bull+filioque&source=bl&ots=oQ5psCivB2&sig=jXxiQql-9I22kLTp9-lmhZx1BH0&hl=en&ei=Vz66TfH6ENOBtgeQhoDIAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=humbert%20bull%20filioque&f=false
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 12:58:29 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2011, 02:03:17 AM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.


I think Tolkien would agree with you, Keble. He was suggesting going to one as an exercise, not make it one's regular habit.

I remember his grandson recalling Tolkien taking him to Mass when he was a boy in the early 1970s. The particular Mass they went to was so irreverent that Tolkien walked out in the middle of it.

I don't think your ever going to find the "perfect" liturgy (Maybe ina Cathedral or monastery).  Most parish churches just can't do what it takes to put on such a "rols royce" service every week.  You have to take what you can get and jsut make the best of it.  This snobbish search for the most reverant liturgy by some reminds me of some type of esoteric gnosticism.
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« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2011, 07:34:27 AM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?

Can you, please, answer my question: is the phrase "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" heretical or not? If not, then what is preventing the Greek-speaking Roman Catholics from reciting the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creen, which is recited by all other Roman Catholics in the world?
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« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2011, 09:13:01 AM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?

Can you, please, answer my question: is the phrase "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" heretical or not? If not, then what is preventing the Greek-speaking Roman Catholics from reciting the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creen, which is recited by all other Roman Catholics in the world?

The option you offer is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

Filioque does NOT do that.  Proceeds in Latin can mean EITHER an originating causal procession OR a source procession that is NOT causal. 

So Filioque does not rule out the explicit teaching of the papal Catholic Church that the Father is the originating cause of the divinity...It simply makes the word proceeds mean two different things in the same breath.

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« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2011, 09:30:20 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh
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« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

There have been Catholic bishops who have said so in the past because they were either hostile or angry or ignorant or a combination of the three.  I have friends who say Orthodoxy is heretical but that does not mean that is what the Church teaches.  I know clergy and bishops who would agree with them but that does not mean that is what the Church insists upon.

We have been mean spirited and nasty to one another for quite a long time.  Each one of us much choose whether to continue it or to do what we can to stop it.
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