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Author Topic: Papal Liturgy nowadays  (Read 5186 times) Average Rating: 0
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Michał
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« on: April 17, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite," only according to what he himself (in 1990) called "a fabrication, a banal product of the moment." But even a NOM Liturgy can be done in the "Tridentine style." Is it the case with Papal Masses nowadays? Are they served ad orientem or versus populum? In Latin or in vernacular? With Gregorian chant or with modern singing? With the "big six" and a crucifix on the altar or with some contemporary alternatives of those?
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 11:31:23 AM »

Located a website which gives the sources when Cardinal Ratzinger made this statement not once but twice.

http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2009/08/archbishop-nichols-versus-cardinal.html

In Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."


In the preface to the French translation of Monsignor Klaus Gamber's most famous book, Die Reform der römischen Liturgie (The Reform of the Roman Rite) then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately."
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 03:05:23 AM »

pope Benedict like many people...is ..full of contradictions.

I myself am surely full of contradictions.

All you have to do is watch EWTN and many of your questions would be answered.
It is streamed online 24/7 if you have high speed access.

Here are my answers which may not be strictly accurate, but are generally so.


No, most if not ALL publicly celebrated masses are done in the made up "versus populum" form.

Privately and for masses which receive less publicity, he has celebrated ad orientem.

This appears to be because this is a symbolic move to not face people and the liberal local bishops become afraid or extra rebellious if he does this. It is "politically unacceptable" (so much for his authority right?),

The Big six candles with elaborate holders and Crucifix are I think ALWAYS used.

90% of the mass is said in latin, except for the intercessions for the people, gospel, epistle and lesson (homily/sermon), which are in fact often read by guest lay people or clerics from different countries and different languages.

Of all the things I think music has improved the most.

This is actually a good thing. Medieval Chant and 16th c polyphonic settings are much more common place than they were 5 years ago.

However, so far, this has little effect on the typical Latin parish church, which continues to use the guitar and modernist/secular/protestant style hymnody globdeygook almost as much as it did 10 years ago. However many of the suburban parishes in the USA are more cutting edge and have made more improvements towards tradition..but this is still..incrementally..maybe 10% better than 2000. There is a long way to go for the average parish..it is still immensely unorthodox musically.


So yes,

Pope benedict is apparently a hypocrit in many ways, or at least someone who is very difficult for the average individual to understand in terms of liturgical matters, it is rightfully most confusing.

This is one of the grave concerns many traditionalist catholics which support the pre-vat II Latin Mass have of him within in the past 3 years that he has not been radical enough, and brought only small doses of change.

In fact there has almost been a depression amongst many that the 1962 form Latin Mass to celebrate his papal anniversay which was successful last in April of 2010 at the National Shrine of the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception has been cancelled for 2011. The Paulus Institute which tried to schedule it again found great opposition to it from Donald Cardinal Wuerl who was last year only an Archbishop. Essentially certain US bishops and or Cardinals, such as Wuerl, feel threatened by traditional latin catholics and fear that if 5000 of them regularly show up on the footsteps of the largest basilica in the USA..the pandoras box of "bad nasty pre-vatican II era" will be opened wide forevermore.

Since the 2007 papal motu proprio "Summorum pontificum" supposedly freeing the usage of the Latin mass, many catholics try to unite and have this ancient form of mass celebrated. They take polls, they pray rosaries, they send thousands of signatures to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" in Rome complaining that their diocese will not allow celebrate of traditional masses. They have no responses. So far the bishops and priests are usually very much against it. This 2007 directive has  ignored and maligned against bitterly by much of the latin hierarchy, which even at this moment appear to be finding new methods to subvert and destroy any of its influence to revive ancient tradition. The handful that support it are ostracized and punished privately.

I think this is a fair assessment and have been saddened that all the "power" and infallibility of the papacy is in reality, rather powerless and ineffectual. Since the post vatican II era, bishops hold the real power, perhaps they always have.

Orthodoxy makes sense because at least it acknowledges that which is impossible...whereas for the Latin church the impossible is acknowledged as reality..

If the Orthodox Church is seen as an embarrassment and joke because of it's jurisdictional and or ethnic rivalries/lack of unity, the Latin Catholic church is also seen as an embarrassment due to it's papal authority/centralization being rather illusionary and rarely making an appearance in terms of supporting the "Orthodox" form of ancient latin liturgy.
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 06:23:14 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"

Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"

Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?

There are rumours that he does celebrate it privately but will never do it publically -- to avoid tensions in the RCC.
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 04:57:13 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.

Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 05:14:33 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?



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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 05:25:45 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on very feelings and not actually studying the older or newer latin liturgy very closely.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?





Yowsers! Put the claws away!

I have read the NO Mass, and I think (though I don't tend to presume) what Robb is saying is that some of the language is similar to that of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great. In recent modifications that the College of Cardinals have made to the Mass, they seem to be leaning more towards the same language used in the Divine Liturgy.

This is simply an observation. I could be 110% wrong, and off base.

However, as the Church's have a shared History, and both Church's venerate St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that the College of Cardinals would draw inspiration by the man called "golden mouthed" and one of the great theologians of the Church.

In regards to the "If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?" comment, in addition to it being rather snarky, I think it's a bit of a cheap shot. Robb was raised Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy. Many posters on this board are former Catholics.

His comment was not disrespectful towards the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, so I don't know where you get off being so rude.

Also, to imply that he is ignorant and/or stupid? Really?

We just got out of Lent and celebrated Pascha. Although we can eat meat again, that doesn't mean we should chew out each other.

Please, put the claws away. This is a discussion forum where we openly discuss things. No need to tear one another apart.  angel
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 05:56:10 PM »

Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.

Therefore I will remove myself from the discussion.
My feelings are too strong. But the fact that you are ex-catholics tells me some things.

You ought to ask yourselves if the language of the western rite orthodox mass is further removed from the liturgy of john chrysostom compared to novus ordo.

I leave you with these three links which say all that needs to be said:

http://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/2010/05/three-most-untraditional-prayers.html

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw&feature=related

Christ is risen!
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 05:56:49 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.

Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?

There's an up-side to this.  There's fewer of us today who are quite so easily bowled over...or taken off guard...eh?   Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2011, 05:58:48 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem. The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements? Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theological facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?





You've never heard a single person praise the NO Mass?  Do you live under some type of rock?  
It sounds like you definitely are a "traditionalist" Catholic, filled with venom and arrogance towards anyone who doesn't share your eccentric and dismal viewpoints.  You people are what drove me away from Catholicism in the first place.
The NO has the definite Eastern flavored to it, it isn't a stale creation like its Tridentine predecessor (Something that the Pope also said about the Latin Mass which nobody ever bothers to bring up).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:59:31 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2011, 06:01:20 PM »


The [liturgical] additions of the late Middle Ages were eliminated, and at the same time severe measures were adopted to prevent a rebirth. .... At that time, the fate of the Western liturgy was linked to a set authority, which worked in a strictly bureaucratic way, lacking any historic vision and considering the problem of the liturgy from the sole viewpoint of rubrics and ceremonies, like a problem of etiquette in a saint's court, so to speak.

As a consequence of this link, there was a complete archeologization of the liturgy, which from the state of a living history was changed into that of pure conservation and, therefore, condemned to an internal death. Liturgy became once and forever a closed construction, firmly petrified. The more it was concerned about the integrity of pre-existent formulas, the more it lost its connection to concrete devotions ....

In this situation, the baroque carved it [the liturgy] superimposing a people's para-liturgy over its true and proper archeologized liturgy. The solemn baroque mass, through the splendor of the orchestra's performance, became a kind of sacred opera, in which the songs of the priest had their role as did the alternating recitals. .... On the ordinary days that did not allow such a performance, devotions that followed the people's mentality were often added to the mass.

(Joseph Ratzinger, Problemi e risultati del Concilio Vaticano II, Brescia: Queriniana, 1967, pp. 25-27)

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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2011, 06:03:54 PM »

Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.


Indeed He is Risen!

The best thing to be said about the normative liturgy of the Roman rite is that it is an approved liturgical translation with approved rubrics.  It has fed many spiritually and will continue to do so for many generations.  

There are times when I go simply to experience the clarity of the message and the clean clear lines of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

To those who worship in its bosom daily or weekly it is home.

When I said I was going to translate to one of the eastern Catholic Churches a very close spiritual guide screwed up his face and said "Why?  It is a repetitive and boring liturgy!!"

I have learned that the nay-sayers are actually the losers.  I prefer to love all approved liturgies, each one perfect in its own rite...right?   Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2011, 06:09:43 PM »

I'll back up Rob here and say I know many Latin Catholics that are just fine with the NO and want nothing to do with the Tridentine Rite, and they are not always liberals either.
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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2011, 06:26:50 PM »

Christopher,
Have you ever been to an N.O. mass that is celebrated properly? There is, indeed, a beautiful simplicity.
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2011, 06:41:38 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?



When I was attending the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church, their Bishop said that Melkite Theologians played a prominent role at Vatican II.
They encouraged a return to the more ancient forms of the Latin Mass (Gregorian Mass) in the Novus Ordo:

The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).

However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2011, 06:51:12 PM »


However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).

And is not in the rubrics either. In fact, good litrugists consider "versus populem" to be a liturgical abuse.
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2011, 08:14:33 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.

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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2011, 09:46:51 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.



Thanks for those liturgies. Where did you get them?
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 05:54:34 AM »

The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).

First of all, these are neither mandatory, nor globally standard for the NOM. Moreover, AFAIK, not only Communion under both species, but also the procession and the litanies are from the pre-Tridentine Latin rites/uses which were more splendid and more akin to the Eastern Liturgies.

Professor Dobszay comments that the 'Tridentine Rite' is in fact a cut-down version (for the use of the Roman Curia) of the true Roman Rite which existed throughout the West in various forms.

The fact that Sarum became obsolete preserved it from tampering hands at that time. The full ceremonial is very ornate and reminiscent of Byzantine splendour, with the use of flabellae and scores of men and boys apparelled in copes and dalmatics. That kind of liturgical life . . . is quite a contrast from the Counter-Reformation sobriety of the Roman rite in its extraordinary form.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 06:11:34 AM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

Just a sidenote for those interested: the former is used by some AWRV parishes, the latter -- by Fr. Aidan (Keller) of the ROCOR (currently, only occasionally -- when he visits St. Nicholas Monastery in Ft. Myers, Florida).
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 11:00:19 AM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2011, 11:44:27 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2011, 11:55:32 AM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2011, 11:57:39 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...That is reserved, in the Latin rite, to the Father.

The filioque should never be said in the Creed when the Creed is recited in Greek...

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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 12:07:40 PM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 12:14:41 PM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.

I learned what I have told you from Orthodox sources, first, and Catholic sources later, so now I do not know how to respond to you.

You will have to look well past me for an answer then...I fear... Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 01:06:14 PM »

Hi Michał. For the moment let me just give you short answers.

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

Well, you can't have a mass without a priest (not even the OF Wink)

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)

So what? Oh, I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of this ... and apparently not everyone was.
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2011, 01:10:17 PM »

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

I will be grateful for that.
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 01:17:10 PM »

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

I will be grateful for that.

Just checked with a Greek Orthodox friend who corroborated that Latin rite Catholics in Greece do not recite the Creed in Greek with the filioque.  That change was made post-Vatican II with the change from the mass in Latin to the mass in Greek.

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2011, 01:30:22 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2011, 01:36:49 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.  Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.

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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2011, 01:42:25 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2011, 01:49:56 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Not at all

Christ is Risen!!
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2011, 02:03:08 PM »

Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2011, 04:03:38 PM »

I thought I remembered seeing it in The Greek and Latin traditions about the procession of the Holy Spirit, also known as the Vatican's Clarification on the Filioque, but I didn't have the time to look for it earlier. Anyhow, here it is:

Quote
Even for St Cyril, the term ekporeusis as distinct from the term "proceed" (proienai), can only characterise a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.

See also http://www.agrino.org/cyberdesert/zizioulas.htm#liturgy

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« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2011, 04:06:39 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

I think, if memory serves, that I first learned of it from byzcath as well.
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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2011, 04:13:55 PM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.
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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2011, 04:16:24 PM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."

Yes, that's a good illustration of my point.

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« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2011, 04:35:41 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration

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« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2011, 04:50:13 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

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Wow. That is exactly like my parish's Maundy Thursday Mass.
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« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2011, 05:00:12 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow.

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2011, 05:04:02 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow.


Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.  There are rare exceptions in dioceses where the bishops are notoriously lax but even there there are priests who manage to do the right things.


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« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »

Christus resurrexit.
Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
I aim younger. Mark 10:15
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 05:23:51 PM »

Michał,  I think you've hit on a real issue. It seems others might have it better, but I know that the last location at which I participated in the liturgical life of the Roman Catholic Church this was nowhere near what I witnessed, or could witness on a regular basis. Eventually the Latin Mass was introduced, albeit once a month, at a different church nearby. The problem then becomes that the RC church maintains this idea of "obligation" for every Sunday, meaning that three Sundays of each month were required to be spent engaging in banality for every one spent in a more traditional service. This is part of the reason why I eventually decided I might be better off just attending Byzantine services (though those had their own problems).
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 05:24:10 PM »

Christus resurrexit.
Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
I aim younger. Mark 10:15

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 05:24:59 PM »

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.

I know of no such parish in Poland.

You know that such Internet testimonies really tell us nothing. To get the full picture, we would have to look at some reliable statistics.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 05:26:42 PM »

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.

I know of no such parish in Poland.

You know that such Internet testimonies really tell us nothing. To get the full picture, we would have to look at some reliable statistics.

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?...or that you've never encountered one?

M.
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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 05:33:07 PM »

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?

I don't know what is reverential enough for you, but, AFAIK, there are no parishes in Poland which would offer the NOM in Latin, in Gregorian chant, ad orientem, with six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar, etc., etc.
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2011, 05:43:04 PM »

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

This kind of celebration is rare indeed.  Fr Newman understands liturgy well and has a deep love of sacred music.   He has abolished the ubiquitous "song leader" and developed an outstanding choir.  One often hears about the reform of the reform.  Fr Newman is one of the few parish priests who has actually implemented it at the parochial level.   
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« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration

Thank you for these!
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« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2011, 08:07:23 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow.

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

I don't know what percent, but keep in mind that there are more than a billion Catholics (in communion with the Vatican) in the world, so even a small percent of Catholics is still a very large number of people.
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« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2011, 08:08:47 PM »

I aim younger. Mark 10:15

I know you are, but what am I?
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« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2011, 08:30:10 PM »

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

This kind of celebration is rare indeed.  Fr Newman understands liturgy well and has a deep love of sacred music.   He has abolished the ubiquitous "song leader" and developed an outstanding choir.  One often hears about the reform of the reform.  Fr Newman is one of the few parish priests who has actually implemented it at the parochial level.   

I think you are right about that but I think you might be surprised by some of the gems you could discover in the foothills of the Alleghenies.   But these are not the only reverential Novus Ordo masses possible.  Some are chanted in English rather than in Latin, for example, and the altar is bare of candles though there is a central crucifix, for another example.  At any rate the Novus Ordo is the normative mass of the Roman rite.
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« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2011, 08:51:00 PM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.

Oh, I don't think they even need special permission to celebrate Mass in any language according to the approved text. In my own Archdiocese of Boston, Mass is celebrated in 20 different languages each week.
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« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2011, 08:56:59 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.
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« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2011, 09:18:56 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.

Please clarify who "he" refers to?


Is the former Church of England Priest Fr. Jay Scott Newman or Fr. Longenecker?

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« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2011, 09:21:41 PM »

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

Indeed. Too much smugness and snark.  Wink

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« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2011, 09:35:14 PM »

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

Indeed. Too much smugness and snark.  Wink


Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.
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« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2011, 09:35:40 PM »

I mean, yeah, things could be better. I usually go to the traditional Latin Mass, but when I don't, I go to a Novus Ordo church for Mass (and adoration, Vespers, etc.).

Yes, it's versus populum(priest facing the people), no candles or crucifix on the altar. The priest doesn't sing his parts. There are other things I could quibble about. But the priests there are orthodox, reverent, and promote holiness. They've also hired a music director who does proper music (chant, polyphony, traditional hymns). There aren't abuses, so I am not distracted while praying at Mass, so I'm grateful.

I'm just a layman, and I have come to realize that I can't just play artistic/liturgical critic everywhere I go. The Mass is the Mass, and there is a time to gripe about the liturgy, but that isn't when I'm supposed to be uniting my heart to the action on the altar.

I know things are bad in many places. It can be trying when I'm traveling to walk into a parish whose pastor allows, encourages, or participates in liturgical abuses that are hard to bear. It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death. By the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste --or foretaste-- of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion. Though always Itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.

Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.
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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2011, 09:43:51 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration



Wonderful place. Fr. Jay Scott Newman. Greenville, South Carolina, is so blessed to have this place and also good old Fr. Dwight Longenecker's parish.

Fr. Longenecker has one of the best Catholic blogs online!

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/

--

BTW, he is one of those fine Catholic priests who actually prefers the Novus Ordo. I disagree with him myself, but I am not bothered too much, because he is top-notch. He does the Novus Ordo beautifully.

I'll add for you EO folks that he has a wife and children. He's a former Church of England priest.

Please clarify who "he" refers to?


Is the former Church of England Priest Fr. Jay Scott Newman or Fr. Longenecker?



Fr. Longenecker---he is American but became Anglican and moved to England to be a CofE priest. He converted to Catholicism and came back to the US and was ordained a few years ago.
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« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2011, 09:46:49 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
How so? It's cute how you protest yet don't elaborate.
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« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2011, 09:56:27 PM »

I would think that this entire site would be all the elaboration of that particular point that anyone could ever need, but maybe not...
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« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."
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« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2011, 10:03:55 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."

Wow, that's only about 7 months away. :thumbsup:

I haven't really been keeping up with such things ... are they still planning to retain "one in being" in the creed?
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« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2011, 10:05:40 PM »

Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.

Dude, are you saying we're heathens?
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« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2011, 10:28:20 PM »

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

Come Advent 2011, the new English translation is going into force, and "for all" is being changed to "for many."

Wow, that's only about 7 months away. :thumbsup:

I haven't really been keeping up with such things ... are they still planning to retain "one in being" in the creed?

Heck, no, thank God. It will be replaced by "consubstantial" which comes from the Latin "consubstantialem" which is the synonym for Greek "homoousios".

You can see that change in the Ordinary of the Mass (among many others) in this chart:

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/examples.shtml

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« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2011, 11:34:38 PM »

Christ is risen!
I would think that this entire site would be all the elaboration of that particular point that anyone could ever need, but maybe not...
QFT
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« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2011, 11:36:22 PM »

Christ is risen!
Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.

Dude, are you saying we're heathens?
That you are imagining vain things.
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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2011, 08:34:48 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.

Oh, I don't think they even need special permission to celebrate Mass in any language according to the approved text. In my own Archdiocese of Boston, Mass is celebrated in 20 different languages each week.

Well, that's what somebody told me (I guess it was Chris).

In any case, I think the bigger obstacle would be the fact that few Catholics know Greek.
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2011, 08:59:12 AM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai. Note the verb there is proeinai (προείναι), not ekporeuomenon.

in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.

Well, you be the judge of that yourself.
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2011, 09:34:44 AM »

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai.

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh And another thing: what do you mean by "reverse translate"? Let me remind you that the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed is not the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed (although it is based on it), just like the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed is not the Nicean Creed (although it is based on it).
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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.
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« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2011, 04:52:25 PM »

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?

I don't know what is reverential enough for you, but, AFAIK, there are no parishes in Poland which would offer the NOM in Latin, in Gregorian chant, ad orientem, with six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar, etc., etc.

The NOM in Latin is offered in some major churches in Kraków and Warszawa.
The liturgy in Wawel cathedral is normally celebrated ad orientem.

Also, daily masses at my cathedral in Kielce are celebrated at the side altar of Matka Boża Łaskawa ad orientem although Sunday and holyday masses are celebrated at the main altar, in Polish. There are six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar.
Side chapel of Our Gracious Lady, at which Masses are celebrated ad orientem in Kielce

Note: This altar was built in 2000.
On gregorian chant in Poland:
The vernacular Lenten and Easter hymns in Poland are based on gregorian chant.

Although the fact is that, outside of the cathedrals and seminaries, masses are rarely said ad orientem in Poland. Another sad fact is that 1/4 to 1/3 of churches in Poland were built after the council, of which the majority were built after the conservative reign of Primate Wyszyński. These new churches were built exclusively for the Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2011, 05:04:58 PM »

I personally think that, in both east and west too much emphasis is laid on having by the books, stylized liturgies which may sound good on paper, but are hardly possible for the average parish church to put on every Sunday.  Like it or not we are fragile human beings who are prone to make errors and mistakes with things, especially if they are regular occurrences in our lives, such as the liturgy (The old saying "familiarity breads contempt" applies here).  Tolkien comes off to me as a typical British snob when it comes to observations about people and their behavior during Mass.  He would have been better off just praying for his own salvation instead of criticising his fellow parishioners styles of dress and supposed rude habits of worship. 

The idea that there is this "perfect" way to do liturgy and that we laypeople must participate in this supposed worship strikes me as being somewhat elitist, almost gnostic in tone.  Since most Churches do not put on this type of perfect, "Roles Royce" style liturgy that would leave perhaps well over 95% of believers out in the cold.  I just can't fathom this type of egalitarian view regarding Christian worship.
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« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2011, 05:15:12 PM »

Here is a good article written some years ago by an RC priest about the Latin Mass and the "proper" way to celebrate the Liturgy.  I think that it's just as valid for OC's who crave the "liturgically correct" way of doing things over the practical way that most Church services are actually officiated.

http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/3303

The Mass: no way back
John Jay Hughes - 5 July 2003


Elena Curti?s article last week on the old rite of Mass impelled an American priest and church historian to set down his recollections of the past

THE American convert Cardinal Avery Dulles SJ writes of the pre-Vatican II Mass: ?If there be anyone who contends that in order to be converted to the Catholic faith one must be first attracted by the beauty of the liturgy, he will have me to explain away. Filled as I was with a Puritan antipathy toward splendour in religious ritual, I found myself actually repulsed by the elaborate symbolism in which the Holy Sacrifice is clothed.? Accustomed to Presbyterian worship, Dulles says that in the Masses he attended as an undergraduate ?there was little external unity to be discerned. The priest, so far from telling the congregation when to sit or stand or kneel, carried out his tasks almost as though he were alone. The congregation, for their part, were not watching with scrupulous exactitude the movements of the celebrant. Some, on the contrary, were reciting prayers on mysterious strings of beads which Catholics call rosaries. Others were thumbing through pages of prayer-books and missals, which, for all I knew, might have been totally unrelated to the Mass. Not even a hymn was sung to bring unity into this apparently dull and unconnected service.?

Dulles?s experience was also mine ? with the important exception that, as a High Church Anglican, I found Puritanism as off-putting as the old silent Latin Mass was for Dulles. For the first 32 years of my life I was nourished in the Anglican Communion by a liturgy which fulfilled all the postulates of the nascent Catholic liturgical movement (then still suspect in the English-speaking world). Moreover, for six years I had the high privilege, like my father and grandfather before me, of leading the celebration of that liturgy as an Anglican priest. The Elizabethan language we used strikes me now as precious and stilted. But the Eucharist we celebrated was deeply reverent. There was full congregational participation (Catholic references, pre-Vatican II, to ?the dialogue Mass? amused us: we knew no other). There was fervent singing of hymns which I shall miss until the day I die. I heard powerful preaching which moved me then, and moves me still...

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« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2011, 05:18:22 PM »

The NOM in Latin is offered in some major churches in Kraków and Warszawa.
The liturgy in Wawel cathedral is normally celebrated ad orientem.

Good to know. Thanks for the info, synLeszka.
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« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2011, 05:25:37 PM »

Let the Presbyterians and the Anglicans complain. What they have to do with the liturgy of other churches is beyond me. Probably these same people would attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and remain unmoved. What can you say? It takes all kinds. I was raised in the Presbyterian Church and craved the kind of worship they apparently see as anathema. Whose view should determine the celebration? Neither. It would be equally wrong of me to say that my own proclivities are evidence of the health or suitability of a particular mode of celebration, or else all churches would celebrate according to St. Basil. That is clearly not appropriate. Rather a look into history can tell us who is preserving the faith as it was once and for all delivered by the holy apostles, including a proper liturgical life (yes, I maintain that there is such a thing). Surely you are Orthodox for some reason, Robb, and that reason is not to post approvingly the disparaging words of Protestants against the Latins, or the Latins against the Orthodox.
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« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2011, 05:55:08 PM »

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh And another thing: what do you mean by "reverse translate"? Let me remind you that the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed is not the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed (although it is based on it), just like the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed is not the Nicean Creed (although it is based on it).

Because as has been stated many times on this forum, though you missed it, the Latin Catholic Church has conceded the point that in Greek the Filioque is heretical. 

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.

On the basis of Jn 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit “to ek tou PatroV ekporeuomenon” (“who takes his origin from the Father”). The Father alone is the principle without principle (arch anarcoV) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source (phgh) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit therefore takes his origin from the Father alone (ek monou tou PatroV) in a principal, proper and immediate manner.1

The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the "Father's monarchy", and the Western tradition, following St Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father "principaliter", that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, PL 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the "monarchy of the Father" implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or principle (principium) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

This origin of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone as principle of the whole Trinity is called ekporeusiV by Greek tradition, following the Cappadocian Fathers. St Gregory of Nazianzus, the Theologian, in fact, characterizes the Spirit's relationship of origin from the Father by the proper term ekporeusiV, distinguishing it from that of procession (to proienai) which the Spirit has in common with the Son. "The Spirit is truly the Spirit proceeding (proion) from the Father, not by filiation, for it is not by generation, but by ekporeusiV (Discourse 39, 12, Sources chrétiennes 358, p. 175). Even if St Cyril of Alexandria happens at times to apply the verb ekporeusqai the Son's relationship of origin from the Father, he never uses it for the relationship of the Spirit to the Son (Cf. Commentary on St John, X, 2, PG 74, 910D; Ep 55, PG 77, 316 D, etc.). Even for St Cyril, the term ekporeusiV as distinct from the term "proceed" (proienai) can only characterize a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou PatroV kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula to ek tou PatroV ekporeuomenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM



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« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2011, 06:05:16 PM »

Because as has been stated many times on this forum, though you missed it, the Latin Catholic Church has conceded the point that in Greek the Filioque is heretical.

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?
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« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2011, 06:41:30 PM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?
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« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2011, 09:56:11 PM »

Well, if you just want to "reverse translate" the Latin into Greek, I believe it would be: ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai.

I wonder why it wasn't done then. If the editio typica of the NOM has the "and from the Son" phrase, then why the Greek version -- out of all the versions in the world -- should not have it? Huh

I recall this same question being asked some years ago. As I recall, the conversation kind of broke down at that point.
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« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2011, 11:55:09 PM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.


I think Tolkien would agree with you, Keble. He was suggesting going to one as an exercise, not make it one's regular habit.

I remember his grandson recalling Tolkien taking him to Mass when he was a boy in the early 1970s. The particular Mass they went to was so irreverent that Tolkien walked out in the middle of it.
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« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2011, 12:39:39 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.

The latin church concedes this about a thousand years too late. And they DID REQUIRE the Church to insert it at one point..or at least a Cardinal Humbert did. (whether he had that authority I dont know.)

Humbert himself raised the filioque as an issue, claiming that the East's omission of the word from the Nicene Creed had brought them into serious heresy. On July 16 Humbert and his party entered Hagia Sophia just as the liturgy was to begin and placed the bull of excommunication against Patriarch Michael, Leo of Ohrid, and "all their followers in the aforesaid errors and presumptions" on the altar. While careful to note that "with respect to the pillars of the empire and it's wise and honored citizens, the city is most Christian and orthodox," the bull took direct aim at "Michael, false neophyte patriarch, who only out of human fear assumed the monastic habit, now known notoriously to many because of his extremely wicked crimes." Among these crumes (and there were many) was the charge that Michael and his followers, "like Pneumatomachians or Theoumachians, have deleted from the creed the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son."

One may read the fine details in on google book:

The filioque: history of a doctrinal controversy
 By Anthony Edward Siecienski

http://books.google.com/books?id=auT8VbgOe48C&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=humbert+bull+filioque&source=bl&ots=oQ5psCivB2&sig=jXxiQql-9I22kLTp9-lmhZx1BH0&hl=en&ei=Vz66TfH6ENOBtgeQhoDIAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=humbert%20bull%20filioque&f=false
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« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2011, 02:03:17 AM »

It is at those times when I read these encouraging words from JRR Tolkien (in a letter written to his son in the 1960s):
[....]
Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children -- from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn -- open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.

I have to say that, while appreciating some of the sentiment, this strikes me as bad advice. The problem is that, as frail humans, we are governed by habituation, and if we constantly immerse ourselves in slovenly, irreverent liturgy, our own faith is almost certainly going to take on the same slovenly and irreverent color. Indeed, one can see in the USA a Roman style of liturgy that is almost defiantly bad, and which holds solemnity and reverence in contempt as something done by (ugh) Anglicans. We can bring our own reverence to church, and with it we can prevail against the surroundings, for a time. But eventually we will inculcate in ourselves the same faults in which our clerics indulge.


I think Tolkien would agree with you, Keble. He was suggesting going to one as an exercise, not make it one's regular habit.

I remember his grandson recalling Tolkien taking him to Mass when he was a boy in the early 1970s. The particular Mass they went to was so irreverent that Tolkien walked out in the middle of it.

I don't think your ever going to find the "perfect" liturgy (Maybe ina Cathedral or monastery).  Most parish churches just can't do what it takes to put on such a "rols royce" service every week.  You have to take what you can get and jsut make the best of it.  This snobbish search for the most reverant liturgy by some reminds me of some type of esoteric gnosticism.
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« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2011, 07:34:27 AM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?

Can you, please, answer my question: is the phrase "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" heretical or not? If not, then what is preventing the Greek-speaking Roman Catholics from reciting the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creen, which is recited by all other Roman Catholics in the world?
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« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2011, 09:13:01 AM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?

Can you, please, answer my question: is the phrase "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" heretical or not? If not, then what is preventing the Greek-speaking Roman Catholics from reciting the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creen, which is recited by all other Roman Catholics in the world?

The option you offer is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

Filioque does NOT do that.  Proceeds in Latin can mean EITHER an originating causal procession OR a source procession that is NOT causal. 

So Filioque does not rule out the explicit teaching of the papal Catholic Church that the Father is the originating cause of the divinity...It simply makes the word proceeds mean two different things in the same breath.

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« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2011, 09:30:20 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh
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« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

There have been Catholic bishops who have said so in the past because they were either hostile or angry or ignorant or a combination of the three.  I have friends who say Orthodoxy is heretical but that does not mean that is what the Church teaches.  I know clergy and bishops who would agree with them but that does not mean that is what the Church insists upon.

We have been mean spirited and nasty to one another for quite a long time.  Each one of us much choose whether to continue it or to do what we can to stop it.
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« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2011, 09:37:55 AM »

Are you telling me that there are no parishes in Poland who offer a reverential Novus Ordo liturgy?

I don't know what is reverential enough for you, but, AFAIK, there are no parishes in Poland which would offer the NOM in Latin, in Gregorian chant, ad orientem, with six candles and a crucifix in the middle of the altar, etc., etc.
So if it doesn't have the precise combination, then it is not reverent? ... Interesting.
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« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2011, 09:41:34 AM »

You miss.  

Never met a child quite so jaded.

Indeed. Too much smugness and snark.  Wink


Funny, I was just reading about you guys in Psalm 2.
I read about you every time Jesus condemns the pharisees.
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« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2011, 09:48:22 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2011, 09:50:57 AM »

So if it doesn't have the precise combination, then it is not reverent? ... Interesting.

What is interesting is how you read it in my posts. I didn't say that. As a matter of fact, I don't really like the "big six." Wink
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« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2011, 10:06:28 AM »

The option you offer . . .

It wasn't me who offered it. It was Peter J.

. . . is unacceptable because it changes the meaning of the Creed because it EXPLICITLY rules out the teaching that the Father is the cause of the divinity.

So you are telling me that both "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" and "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" are heretical? Interesting. So, according to the Vatican, Greek happens to be the only language in the world in which there is absolutely no way to put the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creed in a non-heretical manner? I always used to think that Greek is a very rich language in which there are virtually unlimited possibilities to express philosophical and theological ideas... Huh

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes

Not at all...I am only responsible for the message delivered.  I can do nothing about the message received.
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« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2011, 10:27:14 AM »

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes

Quote
That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula ek to Patros ekporeumenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.
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« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2011, 10:33:29 AM »

So you are telling me that out of all the languages on earth, Greek happens to be the only one in which there is no way to express the "truth" of Filioque in a way which wouldn't be heretical for the Vatican? What about the translation proposed by Peter J (ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai)? Is it heretical or not?

I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.  The Latin Church acknowledges that "originating from" and "proceeding from" are two seperate things.  That being the case why would the Latin Church want to insert it into the Greek Creed?

Can you, please, answer my question: is the phrase "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" heretical or not? If not, then what is preventing the Greek-speaking Roman Catholics from reciting the Nicean-Constantinopolitan-Toledan Creen, which is recited by all other Roman Catholics in the world?


I don't speak for Deacon Lance, but I would say that you are right to distinguish between those two questions: if "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" is acceptable (and I admit I myself am curious whether he will say that it is) then it doesn't necessarily follow that there should be a Greek version of the creed that includes it.
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« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2011, 10:40:12 AM »

How the heck did you twist that?

The papal Church does not say that "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is heretical.

You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes

Quote
That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula ek to Patros ekporeumenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.

The formula above cannot be used WITH the addition of "from the Son" because it then DOES make the double procession a causal and originating one.

You see there are two ways of conveying procession in Greek...NEITHER one does what the Latin does which is to have the capacity to express BOTH the originating procession and the sourcing non-originating procession both in the same word.

You cannot do in Greek what you can do in Latin...no matter how hard you try.

I was not contradicting myself.  It is NO-GO in both Greek examples.

PS Michal: Please pardon.  We both got tangled for different reasons so now I see what you were saying to me about my Church saying that you cannot add from the Son to the phrase above...You simply cannot add it to either one: 

One makes it a double causal procession and the other leaves out the causal procession altogether...while the Latin form includes both types of procession and it does so by including Filioque to give context for the second type of procession.

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« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2011, 10:43:42 AM »

Quote from: Michał
You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes
Not at all...

Yes, you are. First you wrote: "He [Peter J] is right about the filioque. In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause" (ergo: "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is considered heretical by both Orthodox and Catholics). Then you wrote: "The papal Church does not say that 'ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon' is heretical."
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« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2011, 10:46:57 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure what you are upset about here.  The Latin Church has conceded that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without Filioque is the ecumenical and normative Creed and does not allow it to be inserted in the Greek Creed and in fact never required any Eastern Church to insert it.

The latin church concedes this about a thousand years too late. And they DID REQUIRE the Church to insert it at one point..or at least a Cardinal Humbert did.

You shouldn't attribute too much importance to what one single Cardinal says.

Take Cardinal Mahoney.
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« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2011, 10:48:59 AM »

Quote from: Michał
You are contradicting yourself. Roll Eyes
Not at all...

Yes, you are. First you wrote: "He [Peter J] is right about the filioque. In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause" (ergo: "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" is considered heretical by both Orthodox and Catholics). Then you wrote: "The papal Church does not say that 'ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon' is heretical."

I am not going to confuse things by trying to explain what I thought you meant.  I understand now and answered your question above.

You cannot use "from the Son" in either one of the possible Greek phrasings.  I explained why above.
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« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2011, 10:49:48 AM »

I read about you every time Jesus condemns the pharisees.

So if it doesn't have the precise combination, then it is not reverent? ... Interesting.

Alright now ... stop having fun and start working.
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« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2011, 10:52:20 AM »

PS Michal: Please pardon.  We both got tangled for different reasons so now I see what you were saying to me about my Church saying that you cannot add from the Son to the phrase above...You simply cannot add it to either one: 

One makes it a double causal procession and the other leaves out the causal procession altogether...while the Latin form includes both types of procession and it does so by including Filioque to give context for the second type of procession.

OK, so for your Church the "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" phrase is unaccatable because it is a heresy and the "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" -- because it flattens the meaning of the N-C-T Creed? Am I getting it right?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2011, 10:55:55 AM »

PS Michal: Please pardon.  We both got tangled for different reasons so now I see what you were saying to me about my Church saying that you cannot add from the Son to the phrase above...You simply cannot add it to either one: 

One makes it a double causal procession and the other leaves out the causal procession altogether...while the Latin form includes both types of procession and it does so by including Filioque to give context for the second type of procession.

OK, so for your Church the "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon" phrase is unaccatable because it is a heresy and the "ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou proeinai" -- because it flattens the meaning of the N-C-T Creed? Am I getting it right?

I think we are there...I think so...hope so  Smiley

They would both be heterodox...if used with "from the Son"...
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