OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 09:43:47 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Papal Liturgy nowadays  (Read 5258 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« on: April 17, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite," only according to what he himself (in 1990) called "a fabrication, a banal product of the moment." But even a NOM Liturgy can be done in the "Tridentine style." Is it the case with Papal Masses nowadays? Are they served ad orientem or versus populum? In Latin or in vernacular? With Gregorian chant or with modern singing? With the "big six" and a crucifix on the altar or with some contemporary alternatives of those?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:59:09 AM by Michał » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 11:31:23 AM »

Located a website which gives the sources when Cardinal Ratzinger made this statement not once but twice.

http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2009/08/archbishop-nichols-versus-cardinal.html

In Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."


In the preface to the French translation of Monsignor Klaus Gamber's most famous book, Die Reform der römischen Liturgie (The Reform of the Roman Rite) then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately."
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 03:05:23 AM »

pope Benedict like many people...is ..full of contradictions.

I myself am surely full of contradictions.

All you have to do is watch EWTN and many of your questions would be answered.
It is streamed online 24/7 if you have high speed access.

Here are my answers which may not be strictly accurate, but are generally so.


No, most if not ALL publicly celebrated masses are done in the made up "versus populum" form.

Privately and for masses which receive less publicity, he has celebrated ad orientem.

This appears to be because this is a symbolic move to not face people and the liberal local bishops become afraid or extra rebellious if he does this. It is "politically unacceptable" (so much for his authority right?),

The Big six candles with elaborate holders and Crucifix are I think ALWAYS used.

90% of the mass is said in latin, except for the intercessions for the people, gospel, epistle and lesson (homily/sermon), which are in fact often read by guest lay people or clerics from different countries and different languages.

Of all the things I think music has improved the most.

This is actually a good thing. Medieval Chant and 16th c polyphonic settings are much more common place than they were 5 years ago.

However, so far, this has little effect on the typical Latin parish church, which continues to use the guitar and modernist/secular/protestant style hymnody globdeygook almost as much as it did 10 years ago. However many of the suburban parishes in the USA are more cutting edge and have made more improvements towards tradition..but this is still..incrementally..maybe 10% better than 2000. There is a long way to go for the average parish..it is still immensely unorthodox musically.


So yes,

Pope benedict is apparently a hypocrit in many ways, or at least someone who is very difficult for the average individual to understand in terms of liturgical matters, it is rightfully most confusing.

This is one of the grave concerns many traditionalist catholics which support the pre-vat II Latin Mass have of him within in the past 3 years that he has not been radical enough, and brought only small doses of change.

In fact there has almost been a depression amongst many that the 1962 form Latin Mass to celebrate his papal anniversay which was successful last in April of 2010 at the National Shrine of the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception has been cancelled for 2011. The Paulus Institute which tried to schedule it again found great opposition to it from Donald Cardinal Wuerl who was last year only an Archbishop. Essentially certain US bishops and or Cardinals, such as Wuerl, feel threatened by traditional latin catholics and fear that if 5000 of them regularly show up on the footsteps of the largest basilica in the USA..the pandoras box of "bad nasty pre-vatican II era" will be opened wide forevermore.

Since the 2007 papal motu proprio "Summorum pontificum" supposedly freeing the usage of the Latin mass, many catholics try to unite and have this ancient form of mass celebrated. They take polls, they pray rosaries, they send thousands of signatures to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" in Rome complaining that their diocese will not allow celebrate of traditional masses. They have no responses. So far the bishops and priests are usually very much against it. This 2007 directive has  ignored and maligned against bitterly by much of the latin hierarchy, which even at this moment appear to be finding new methods to subvert and destroy any of its influence to revive ancient tradition. The handful that support it are ostracized and punished privately.

I think this is a fair assessment and have been saddened that all the "power" and infallibility of the papacy is in reality, rather powerless and ineffectual. Since the post vatican II era, bishops hold the real power, perhaps they always have.

Orthodoxy makes sense because at least it acknowledges that which is impossible...whereas for the Latin church the impossible is acknowledged as reality..

If the Orthodox Church is seen as an embarrassment and joke because of it's jurisdictional and or ethnic rivalries/lack of unity, the Latin Catholic church is also seen as an embarrassment due to it's papal authority/centralization being rather illusionary and rarely making an appearance in terms of supporting the "Orthodox" form of ancient latin liturgy.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 03:19:03 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,855



« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 06:23:14 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"

Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?
Logged

Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »

I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"

Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?

There are rumours that he does celebrate it privately but will never do it publically -- to avoid tensions in the RCC.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 04:57:13 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.

Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 05:14:33 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?



« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:18:17 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 05:25:45 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on very feelings and not actually studying the older or newer latin liturgy very closely.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?





Yowsers! Put the claws away!

I have read the NO Mass, and I think (though I don't tend to presume) what Robb is saying is that some of the language is similar to that of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great. In recent modifications that the College of Cardinals have made to the Mass, they seem to be leaning more towards the same language used in the Divine Liturgy.

This is simply an observation. I could be 110% wrong, and off base.

However, as the Church's have a shared History, and both Church's venerate St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that the College of Cardinals would draw inspiration by the man called "golden mouthed" and one of the great theologians of the Church.

In regards to the "If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?" comment, in addition to it being rather snarky, I think it's a bit of a cheap shot. Robb was raised Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy. Many posters on this board are former Catholics.

His comment was not disrespectful towards the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, so I don't know where you get off being so rude.

Also, to imply that he is ignorant and/or stupid? Really?

We just got out of Lent and celebrated Pascha. Although we can eat meat again, that doesn't mean we should chew out each other.

Please, put the claws away. This is a discussion forum where we openly discuss things. No need to tear one another apart.  angel
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 05:56:10 PM »

Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.

Therefore I will remove myself from the discussion.
My feelings are too strong. But the fact that you are ex-catholics tells me some things.

You ought to ask yourselves if the language of the western rite orthodox mass is further removed from the liturgy of john chrysostom compared to novus ordo.

I leave you with these three links which say all that needs to be said:

http://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/2010/05/three-most-untraditional-prayers.html

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw&feature=related

Christ is risen!
Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 05:56:49 PM »

I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.

Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?

There's an up-side to this.  There's fewer of us today who are quite so easily bowled over...or taken off guard...eh?   Smiley
Logged

Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2011, 05:58:48 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem. The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements? Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theological facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?





You've never heard a single person praise the NO Mass?  Do you live under some type of rock?  
It sounds like you definitely are a "traditionalist" Catholic, filled with venom and arrogance towards anyone who doesn't share your eccentric and dismal viewpoints.  You people are what drove me away from Catholicism in the first place.
The NO has the definite Eastern flavored to it, it isn't a stale creation like its Tridentine predecessor (Something that the Pope also said about the Latin Mass which nobody ever bothers to bring up).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:59:31 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2011, 06:01:20 PM »


The [liturgical] additions of the late Middle Ages were eliminated, and at the same time severe measures were adopted to prevent a rebirth. .... At that time, the fate of the Western liturgy was linked to a set authority, which worked in a strictly bureaucratic way, lacking any historic vision and considering the problem of the liturgy from the sole viewpoint of rubrics and ceremonies, like a problem of etiquette in a saint's court, so to speak.

As a consequence of this link, there was a complete archeologization of the liturgy, which from the state of a living history was changed into that of pure conservation and, therefore, condemned to an internal death. Liturgy became once and forever a closed construction, firmly petrified. The more it was concerned about the integrity of pre-existent formulas, the more it lost its connection to concrete devotions ....

In this situation, the baroque carved it [the liturgy] superimposing a people's para-liturgy over its true and proper archeologized liturgy. The solemn baroque mass, through the splendor of the orchestra's performance, became a kind of sacred opera, in which the songs of the priest had their role as did the alternating recitals. .... On the ordinary days that did not allow such a performance, devotions that followed the people's mentality were often added to the mass.

(Joseph Ratzinger, Problemi e risultati del Concilio Vaticano II, Brescia: Queriniana, 1967, pp. 25-27)

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2011, 06:03:54 PM »

Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.


Indeed He is Risen!

The best thing to be said about the normative liturgy of the Roman rite is that it is an approved liturgical translation with approved rubrics.  It has fed many spiritually and will continue to do so for many generations.  

There are times when I go simply to experience the clarity of the message and the clean clear lines of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

To those who worship in its bosom daily or weekly it is home.

When I said I was going to translate to one of the eastern Catholic Churches a very close spiritual guide screwed up his face and said "Why?  It is a repetitive and boring liturgy!!"

I have learned that the nay-sayers are actually the losers.  I prefer to love all approved liturgies, each one perfect in its own rite...right?   Smiley
Logged

Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,942


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2011, 06:09:43 PM »

I'll back up Rob here and say I know many Latin Catholics that are just fine with the NO and want nothing to do with the Tridentine Rite, and they are not always liberals either.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2011, 06:26:50 PM »

Christopher,
Have you ever been to an N.O. mass that is celebrated properly? There is, indeed, a beautiful simplicity.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,232


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2011, 06:41:38 PM »

Quote
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.

I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?



When I was attending the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church, their Bishop said that Melkite Theologians played a prominent role at Vatican II.
They encouraged a return to the more ancient forms of the Latin Mass (Gregorian Mass) in the Novus Ordo:

The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).

However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 06:43:55 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2011, 06:51:12 PM »


However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).

And is not in the rubrics either. In fact, good litrugists consider "versus populem" to be a liturgical abuse.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2011, 08:14:33 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.

Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,232


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2011, 09:46:51 PM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.



Thanks for those liturgies. Where did you get them?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 05:54:34 AM »

The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).

First of all, these are neither mandatory, nor globally standard for the NOM. Moreover, AFAIK, not only Communion under both species, but also the procession and the litanies are from the pre-Tridentine Latin rites/uses which were more splendid and more akin to the Eastern Liturgies.

Professor Dobszay comments that the 'Tridentine Rite' is in fact a cut-down version (for the use of the Roman Curia) of the true Roman Rite which existed throughout the West in various forms.

The fact that Sarum became obsolete preserved it from tampering hands at that time. The full ceremonial is very ornate and reminiscent of Byzantine splendour, with the use of flabellae and scores of men and boys apparelled in copes and dalmatics. That kind of liturgical life . . . is quite a contrast from the Counter-Reformation sobriety of the Roman rite in its extraordinary form.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 06:13:02 AM by Michał » Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 06:11:34 AM »

The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

Just a sidenote for those interested: the former is used by some AWRV parishes, the latter -- by Fr. Aidan (Keller) of the ROCOR (currently, only occasionally -- when he visits St. Nicholas Monastery in Ft. Myers, Florida).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 06:14:56 AM by Michał » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 11:00:19 AM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2011, 11:44:27 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 11:45:36 AM by Michał » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2011, 11:55:32 AM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2011, 11:57:39 AM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...That is reserved, in the Latin rite, to the Father.

The filioque should never be said in the Creed when the Creed is recited in Greek...

Logged

Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 12:07:40 PM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 12:08:27 PM by Michał » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 12:14:41 PM »

Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. Wink

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...

Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.

I learned what I have told you from Orthodox sources, first, and Catholic sources later, so now I do not know how to respond to you.

You will have to look well past me for an answer then...I fear... Smiley
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 01:06:14 PM »

Hi Michał. For the moment let me just give you short answers.

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

Well, you can't have a mass without a priest (not even the OF Wink)

The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .

Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.

So what? Huh (Assuming that you are right.)

So what? Oh, I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of this ... and apparently not everyone was.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2011, 01:10:17 PM »

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

I will be grateful for that.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 01:17:10 PM »

Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

I will be grateful for that.

Just checked with a Greek Orthodox friend who corroborated that Latin rite Catholics in Greece do not recite the Creed in Greek with the filioque.  That change was made post-Vatican II with the change from the mass in Latin to the mass in Greek.

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy
Logged

Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2011, 01:30:22 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 01:32:56 PM by Michał » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2011, 01:36:49 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.  Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.

Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2011, 01:42:25 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2011, 01:49:56 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Not at all

Christ is Risen!!
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2011, 02:03:08 PM »

Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2011, 04:03:38 PM »

I thought I remembered seeing it in The Greek and Latin traditions about the procession of the Holy Spirit, also known as the Vatican's Clarification on the Filioque, but I didn't have the time to look for it earlier. Anyhow, here it is:

Quote
Even for St Cyril, the term ekporeusis as distinct from the term "proceed" (proienai), can only characterise a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.

See also http://www.agrino.org/cyberdesert/zizioulas.htm#liturgy

Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2011, 04:06:39 PM »

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   Cheesy

Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.

I think, if memory serves, that I first learned of it from byzcath as well.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2011, 04:13:55 PM »

. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.

You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2011, 04:16:24 PM »

This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."

Yes, that's a good illustration of my point.

Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 520



WWW
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2011, 04:35:41 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration

Logged

WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2011, 04:50:13 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow. That is exactly like my parish's Maundy Thursday Mass.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2011, 05:00:12 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow.

Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2011, 05:04:02 PM »

If one wishes to experience the Novus Ordo celebrated with grace and beauty, attend liturgy at St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenville, South Carolina.

Maundy Thursday Preface and Sanctus

Maundy Thursday Consecration


Wow.


Wow indeed. But then comes a question: how many per cent of the NOM parishes celebrate the Mass this way?

Most every parish that I can drive to in four hours.  There are rare exceptions in dioceses where the bishops are notoriously lax but even there there are priests who manage to do the right things.


« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 05:11:30 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »

Christus resurrexit.
Quite different.
Only if you think like a twelve year old.
I aim younger. Mark 10:15
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 72 queries.