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Author Topic: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion  (Read 9282 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2011, 04:35:04 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2011, 04:49:03 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 04:52:35 PM »

Another one Porvoo agitator.
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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 04:53:39 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.
Cooperation can be had on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth, but communion comes only from confessing the Orthodox Faith.
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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 05:04:26 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.
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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 05:06:00 PM »





They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.


It's unfortunate that someone always insists on referencing "the clown masses"  Sad.  Given that the plural was used, just how many of them were there, anyway?  As appalling as "they" were, they are hardly representative of Catholicism, even though some would like to think are.  It or they are only representative of pride and sinfulness, and abuse of the Liturgy.  To equate them with Catholicism is totally disingenuous.  It would be equally disingenuous of me were I to keep talking about the abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice that I have personally witnessed and to equate them with Orthodoxy.  C'mon, Isa, of all people you should know better than that.  It is comments like that that make any kind of dialog between Catholics and Orthodox almost impossible.  If you or anyone else is so opposed to dialog (and I am *not* saying you are) then why even discuss anything with Catholics?
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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2011, 05:23:21 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?

Yes.
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2011, 05:47:43 PM »





They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.


It's unfortunate that someone always insists on referencing "the clown masses"  Sad.  Given that the plural was used, just how many of them were there, anyway?  As appalling as "they" were, they are hardly representative of Catholicism, even though some would like to think are.  It or they are only representative of pride and sinfulness, and abuse of the Liturgy.  To equate them with Catholicism is totally disingenuous.  It would be equally disingenuous of me were I to keep talking about the abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice that I have personally witnessed and to equate them with Orthodoxy.  C'mon, Isa, of all people you should know better than that.  It is comments like that that make any kind of dialog between Catholics and Orthodox almost impossible.  If you or anyone else is so opposed to dialog (and I am *not* saying you are) then why even discuss anything with Catholics?
If someone is going to claim the Vatican is a united monolith, I want the details of what that entails.

So, what abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice are you talking about?  You need not limit yourself to those you have personally witnessed.
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2011, 06:01:02 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2011, 06:07:57 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?

Only when you make them bigger than they are.
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 06:30:27 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2011, 06:39:56 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2011, 07:01:31 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.

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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2011, 07:24:21 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

Quote
... It then addresses the question of Catholics receiving the sacraments from non-Catholics. It sets the following strict conditions:

    a. necessity or genuine spiritual advantage
    b. when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided
    c. it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister
    d. a church which has valid sacraments
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2011, 07:29:17 PM »

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.

It's really my fault. I forgot that, as a Catholic, it's my duty to take cheap shots against the Orthodox whenever possible.  By not doing so, I'm effectively guilty of hating my fellow Catholics. Embarrassed
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2011, 07:50:53 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.


You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.

My contention is that if it can be done for some then it can be done for all, IF we had the will to do so.



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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2011, 07:54:28 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

I fully expect that just as there will never be another Unia there will never be another false union like there was during the Council of Florence.

This time the union will be true and it will perdure.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2011, 08:11:11 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Yes, I certainly did notice that that's one of the criteria.

Once more, your level of presumptuousness absolutely astounds me.
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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.



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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2011, 08:32:30 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation, it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills, such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).  

Over the course of the years I have been privileged to walk and talk with people of both Churches and benefited by attending both the DL and the Catholic Mass. I can vouch that, among cradle Orthodox there is a true attitude of respect for RC's (I've been told numerous times by Orthodox faithful that the Catholic Church was the "same religion" as theirs).  It seems like a lot of this recent, anti ecumenical trouble has been stirred up in Orthodoxy by 1.  Hyper Slavic and Russian nationalist who seek to cause trouble and provoke hostility amongst eachother and use religion as a weapon to do so (This is especially true in regions like the Balkans and is sadly practiced by both RC's as well as OC's).
2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.


These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union, but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.
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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2011, 08:33:55 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2011, 08:35:24 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.





That's the Holy Spirit at work.  He works through the common people to ferment the Union of Churches.  These people in the pews on both sides of the aisle sense that the differences between the RCC and OCC are not as great as that which Unites us.  Plus, your Ukrainian so I'm guessing that Ukrainians like to participate in eachothers cultural events, regardless of what Church their at (Especially if it's a Ukrainian one).
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:14 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:49 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.


I won't become Orthodox because Orthodoxy materially refuses to enter into communion with the Church of my Baptism and because I do not believe the schism to have a formal foundation in reality, I will continue to refuse to participate in it by "converting" and renouncing the Catholic Church.

I don't understand how you can't understand that.

M.
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2011, 08:41:55 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.

M.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2011, 08:43:48 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.

M.

Amen to that!
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2011, 08:49:35 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation. 



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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2011, 08:54:26 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation.  

I believe we are distinct in very many ways.  I believe we were distinct even when we were in communion.

I don't believe that we are so different that we do not share the same Eucharist.  I believe we share Apostolic Succession and I believe all of our sacraments are graced.  I do not believe that one is a branch of the other.  I believe all Catholic Churches, Orthodox and papal, are true particular Churches and should be governed as such and I believe we ALL have very distinct traditions that should be protected and cherished.

I do not believe that any of the distinctions are grounds for schism or loss of communion. 

I believe that as long as I am prepared to receive communion according to the tradition of the Orthodox parish where I would receive communion then I should be able to commune there as well as in my eastern Catholic parish, or in the Latin rite parish in which I returned to the faith many years ago.
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2011, 09:10:35 PM »


Thank you for your answer.

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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2011, 09:13:04 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation. 

You make two good points there.

What I meant is that saying "If we're the same, then you should come over to our side" is completely wrong (even apart from the use of force). On the contrary, if we're the same, then there's no good reason for anyone to break off communion with one and join the other. (That's one reason why I'm bothered by J Michael breaking off communion with the Catholic Church but continuing to receive communion in it.)
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« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2011, 09:17:15 PM »


Thank you for your answer.



I think you can see from my response that even if there were the resumption of communion tomorrow, I would not be in favor of a recklessly open-door policy.  Not at all.  If you do not know the traditions and have not lived liturgically in any particular Church for a time, then one should not simply expect to walk up to communion simply because they feel like it.  There would have to be sufficient desire to want become part of the local community first, know the customs, rites and rituals, and only then, communion.

M.
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« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2011, 09:17:59 PM »

However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

I don't think it's all that strange, anymore than I think it's strange that many Anglicans, Lutherans, and other Protestants would receive communion in the Catholic Church, if the Catholic Church said they could.
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2011, 10:11:37 PM »


See....that makes no sense to me, whatsoever.

Why label yourself Anglican, Lutheran, etc.....and go to a Catholic Church to receive Communion?

Why not go to an Anglican, if you are Anglican;  Lutheran if you are Lutheran, etc?

If you find something within your own denomination, that keeps you there....why go elsewhere?  Why the NEED to go elsewhere?  Why wouldn't they be happy with their own?

Personally, I have no need, nor want, to go anywhere outside of an Orthodox Church....even if someone said it were okay.  Why, if I believe all the tenets of my own Church and hold them dear, would I go elsewhere?

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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2011, 10:56:58 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.
Which doesn't include Pastor Aeternus.  The schism is truly made by humand hands with Latin fingerprints.
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« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?

Only when you make them bigger than they are.
As St. John of Damascus, and all the Fathers and Mothers taught, a small thing is not a small thing, when it leads to something great.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. No need to to kneed in the foul leaven of filioque and the Vatican's claims to spoil the pure Bread from Heaven.
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2011, 11:02:29 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
yes, and I intened to keep it that way.
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2011, 11:07:59 PM »

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .


So we should just be at war with Roman Catholics at all times?


What war?
Who we?

“War” as opposition to lie - yes.
Christians (orthodox) in constant opposition to heretics and corruption etc/ and you ask me should we continue to oppose? 

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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2011, 11:11:29 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Good grief!!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2011, 11:13:05 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.

Sounds principles of Christian Commonwealth are precisely what lead away from reunion (at this point at least)!
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« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2011, 11:14:54 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation,
Not according to the Vatican. We do quite fine without its supreme pontiff. We are lacking nothing.

it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills,
The problem is the mountain that the Ultramontanists have made out of Vatican Hill.

such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).
Sad that you find the Holy Trinity a trivial matter.  Why don't we bow to Mecca while we are at it?

Over the course of the years I have been privileged to walk and talk with people of both Churches and benefited by attending both the DL and the Catholic Mass. I can vouch that, among cradle Orthodox there is a true attitude of respect for RC's (I've been told numerous times by Orthodox faithful that the Catholic Church was the "same religion" as theirs).  It seems like a lot of this recent, anti ecumenical trouble has been stirred up in Orthodoxy by 1.  Hyper Slavic and Russian nationalist who seek to cause trouble and provoke hostility amongst eachother and use religion as a weapon to do so (This is especially true in regions like the Balkans and is sadly practiced by both RC's as well as OC's).
2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.
3. The reiteration of the Vatican of its supremist claims, which in part created the Protestants, and against which Russia has historically (Florence, Brest-Lvov, etc) has served as a bulwark.

These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union, but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.
Their supreme pontiff can repent of the error of his ways at any time. Read the epistles of the Eastern Patriarchs, all anti-slav and without Protestant influence:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
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« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.

It's really my fault. I forgot that, as a Catholic, it's my duty to take cheap shots against the Orthodox whenever possible.  By not doing so, I'm effectively guilty of hating my fellow Catholics. Embarrassed

LMAO  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2011, 11:19:50 PM »


Thank you for your answer.



I think you can see from my response that even if there were the resumption of communion tomorrow, I would not be in favor of a recklessly open-door policy.  Not at all.  If you do not know the traditions and have not lived liturgically in any particular Church for a time, then one should not simply expect to walk up to communion simply because they feel like it.  There would have to be sufficient desire to want become part of the local community first, know the customs, rites and rituals, and only then, communion.

M.
I have gone to communion in over a dozen local Churches and in the WRO, and had no problem because no matter the difference in custom, rites and rituals we all confess the SAME Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church.  If you are prepared, yes, you should simply expect to walk up to commune to any Orthodox priest.
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« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2011, 11:21:18 PM »

I fully expect that ... there will never be another false union like there was during the Council of Florence.

I wouldn't be too sure. There already is one in the works.
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« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2011, 11:30:36 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation, it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills, such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).

Teaching that the Father alone Spirates the Spirit is an essential doctrine of the Orthodox Christian faith. Filioque is not a molehill.

2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.

I never was an anti-Romanist Protestant. Before I spent all that much time exploring Orthodoxy I was actually a Tractarian Branch Theorist. I developed my "hard-line" stance against Romanism only through exploration of Orthodoxy. As much as this syndrome is true for some, quite simply you are exaggerating its prevalence and place in anti-Romanist Orthodoxy.


These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union,

There is no true union between the Romanists and Orthodoxy. There is no chipping away. True union is found only in the Orthodox Church.

but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.

Only an insane or ignorant ecclesiology would lead one to this suggestion that the Catholic Church is so divided and in need of reunion with itself in its constituent parts.
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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
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