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Author Topic: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion  (Read 9502 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2011, 04:04:22 PM »

Regarding the “returning of favors”, if Roman Catholics admire and highly respect something in Orthodoxy, and if Orthodox do not see anything worthwhile in post-schism Roman Catholicism, this should not be thought of in terms of a lack of charity on the part of the Orthodox.  It could very well be a matter of conviction that follows from careful examination, a sincere conviction that Orthodoxy is the true Church in all its fullness and glory.  What can be added to or taken away from “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15) or the “fullness of him that filleth all in all” (Eph 1:23)?


I hear what you're saying, jah777, but I just want to point out, with regard to "if Roman Catholics admire and highly respect something in Orthodoxy" ... well, some do and some don't. (Nowadays, the former are more numerous. Before Vatican II, the latter were more numerous.)
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« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2011, 04:05:40 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
yes, and I intened to keep it that way.

Why ialmisry, if I didn't know better I'd think you like that "flippant attitude". Wink
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« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2011, 04:06:44 PM »


How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

See dzheremi's post:

As someone who has been under Rome and just recently got out from under that, erm...union, I can say with no anti-Roman sentiment that I did not leave one communion just to join another that is "basically" the same as it is.
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« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2011, 04:34:39 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
of course not: it is a heretical creed for a heretical church.  Thus is it fine as it is: it lets the Orthodox know who the heretics are, and avoid them accordingly. Hence why we fault its ommission by those in union with the heretics who teach it.

Truth in advertising.

Ah. I had wondered why that was.

So, to make sure I understand you correctly, you would also fault Pope Leo III in the same way, right? (Since he said the creed in its original form, and also affirmed the correctness of the statement "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".)

No, because he was before the Schism and most likely was simply affirming what Maximus the Confessor was talking about.
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« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2011, 04:46:55 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.
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« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2011, 04:52:10 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so thatone day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

This has to be added to the "irony" thread. Semantics is kinda important. Syntax might not be so much.
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« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2011, 04:59:12 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
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« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?

I mean that people who tend to frequent forums about a particular subject tend to be much more well educated in a formal sense about the subject the board is about than others who do not.

Not only are participants on boards more educated in the subject the board is about, they also tend to have much more zealous or rigidly held beliefs or stances on the subject the board is about than most others who don't hang out in such areas.

IME.

I doubt the women who work in the cafeteria here at work who are all RCs and spend most of their time working, doing charity, and raising families have thought a lot about the filioque or would even care that EOs don't include it. They are salt of the earth. Humble and hard working. One of the women noticed my eating habits over the course of the year and asked if I was Jewish. I told her I was an inquirer in EO. Her reaction: That's great! I don't know a lot about them, but I know they have more rules about eating and are more strict on some things.

She is praying that I am received into the Church. I doubt she gives a fig about the filioque.

Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.

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« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2011, 05:26:40 PM »



Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.



Hey!  I remember when the Jesuits were Catholic...'course I am old....but still... Smiley

thanks for the skinny on orthonerds
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« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2011, 05:32:51 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?

I mean that people who tend to frequent forums about a particular subject tend to be much more well educated in a formal sense about the subject the board is about than others who do not.

Not only are participants on boards more educated in the subject the board is about, they also tend to have much more zealous or rigidly held beliefs or stances on the subject the board is about than most others who don't hang out in such areas.

IME.

I doubt the women who work in the cafeteria here at work who are all RCs and spend most of their time working, doing charity, and raising families have thought a lot about the filioque or would even care that EOs don't include it. They are salt of the earth. Humble and hard working. One of the women noticed my eating habits over the course of the year and asked if I was Jewish. I told her I was an inquirer in EO. Her reaction: That's great! I don't know a lot about them, but I know they have more rules about eating and are more strict on some things.

She is praying that I am received into the Church. I doubt she gives a fig about the filioque.

Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.



This is true. But it doesn't quite accomplish the goal it seems you are aiming for; it's still clear that both you and Robb are exaggerating how uncommon it is for the filioque to be an important factor in one's consideration of converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2011, 05:41:26 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics (and not not doctrine)

Well, there is nothing we can do about "invincible ignorance".

and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

I do too. That doesn't require me to have such a low view of the nature of the Schism.
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« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2011, 05:41:41 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox
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« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2011, 05:45:46 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox

There is a ribald joke that would be perfect here . . .
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« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2011, 06:00:03 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate

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« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2011, 06:00:43 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox

There is a ribald joke that would be perfect here . . .

heh....

Let's see if I have this right.  Here are two of my favorite bloggers.  I consider them both to be orthonerds:

http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/

Would that be accurate?
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« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2011, 06:07:44 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



You could be pleased to send it to me if you like...but I don't know about cost.  I have someone who can translate it for me if it is not too long.  Otherwise I can muddle through it.

Also I am aware of the reactions of some Catholics, clergy and laity, toward those who translate to Orthodoxy.  It is not something that pleases me in any way.  It has been a long time since I spent any time on Father Placide.  So I will go back and do so over the next week or two.  Each time I go back to the texts of his on-line, I find that I react the same way to them.

As I said I do not get the same feeling with Father Gabriel and don't anticipate that I ever will.

M.
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« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »

and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

I do too. That doesn't require me to have such a low view of the nature of the Schism.

Me too.
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« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2011, 06:41:14 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

 Smiley

Hear, hear.
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« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2011, 07:10:17 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



You could be pleased to send it to me if you like...but I don't know about cost.  I have someone who can translate it for me if it is not too long.  Otherwise I can muddle through it.

Also I am aware of the reactions of some Catholics, clergy and laity, toward those who translate to Orthodoxy.  It is not something that pleases me in any way.  It has been a long time since I spent any time on Father Placide.  So I will go back and do so over the next week or two.  Each time I go back to the texts of his on-line, I find that I react the same way to them.

As I said I do not get the same feeling with Father Gabriel and don't anticipate that I ever will.

M.

MY ERROR: I have erred here.  Father Placide is not the monk that I was thinking of when I made my comments.  Thank you Father Ambrose for having me stop and think again.

I started a thread on Father Placide whose story I have read and appreciated, so my other comments here, are not accurate and reflect my reaction to a different person entirely!!
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« Reply #154 on: April 20, 2011, 07:21:48 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC?  It seems incredible considering how ecumenical and liberal the French Catholic Church has been reported to be since the 1960's.  I couldn't imagine a French bishop condemning anyone (Except a Traditionalist Catholic, and they have had a long standing feud with each other).
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« Reply #155 on: April 20, 2011, 09:24:12 PM »

This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC? 

Good question.
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« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2011, 09:48:23 PM »


This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC? 


After Vatican II.  Fr Placide and the other Cistercian monks began visiting Athos in 1971 and in June 1977 they were baptized on Athos at the monastery of Simonopetra.  Those who had been priests were then ordained by a bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2011, 10:37:38 PM »

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

Father, I think it is available in English under the title “Stages of a Pilgrimage” published in the book “The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain: Contemporary Voices from Mount Athos” by Hieromonk Alexander (Golotzin).  Do you know whether or not this is the same account?  I quoted from this work in the following message:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35350.msg558539.html#msg558539

I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.
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« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2011, 10:48:52 PM »

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

Father, I think it is available in English under the title “Stages of a Pilgrimage” published in the book “The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain: Contemporary Voices from Mount Athos” by Hieromonk Alexander (Golotzin).  Do you know whether or not this is the same account?  I quoted from this work in the following message:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35350.msg558539.html#msg558539

I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.

It is the translation of the French account that is on the Internet. 
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« Reply #159 on: April 21, 2011, 02:36:54 AM »


I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.

I would really appreciate it.  My e-mail is ambrois @xtra.co.nz

I think my old copy may be a preliminary draft of his conversion story and I have it only in French.
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« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2011, 06:44:34 AM »

No problem. I've been on varsity internets since '88. Having that experience, I know people can be pretty much offended by anything.

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

(Okay, I admit, that was sarcasm; but I couldn't see a better way to get the point across.)
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« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2011, 08:43:27 AM »

See....that makes no sense to me, whatsoever.

Why label yourself Anglican, Lutheran, etc.....and go to a Catholic Church to receive Communion?

Why not go to an Anglican, if you are Anglican;  Lutheran if you are Lutheran, etc?

If you find something within your own denomination, that keeps you there....why go elsewhere?  Why the NEED to go elsewhere?  Why wouldn't they be happy with their own?

Personally, I have no need, nor want, to go anywhere outside of an Orthodox Church....even if someone said it were okay.  Why, if I believe all the tenets of my own Church and hold them dear, would I go elsewhere?

LizaSymonenko,

You ask a good question. I've written a bit of a response, but this thread (or this forum for that matter) doesn't seem the best place for it, so I've started a new thread on the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35462.new.html
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« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2011, 04:50:48 PM »

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

 laugh
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« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2011, 11:24:54 PM »

No problem. I've been on varsity internets since '88. Having that experience, I know people can be pretty much offended by anything.

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

(Okay, I admit, that was sarcasm; but I couldn't see a better way to get the point across.)

Your rhetorical skills are poor. The above is not sarcasm. You should really pick up a primer on rhetorical tropes, if you are going to try to point them out.

And mixing threads is poor forum form.

And if you can't see the difference between you decrying elliptical "hostility" (which I did not use) and pointed and directed abusive language toward a particular person (which you did engage in), then I can't help you any further.

Have a joyous Pascha!
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« Reply #164 on: April 23, 2011, 08:49:50 PM »

then I can't help you any further.

But you'll probably keep trying to.
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« Reply #165 on: April 23, 2011, 09:02:44 PM »


And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.
.

Christ is Risen!

Are these two interviews on the Net?  I'd be very grateful if someone gave the links.
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« Reply #166 on: April 24, 2011, 05:42:21 AM »

then I can't help you any further.

But you'll probably keep trying to.

Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #167 on: April 24, 2011, 11:46:41 AM »

Happy Pascha, everyone! I was blessed enough to see a good friend of mine be baptized, confirmed, and receive first Holy Eucharist at the Great Vigil of Easter last night. Thanks be to God!
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« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2011, 11:23:06 AM »

Happy Pascha, everyone! I was blessed enough to see a good friend of mine be baptized, confirmed, and receive first Holy Eucharist at the Great Vigil of Easter last night. Thanks be to God!
Glory to God!
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« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2011, 10:39:48 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.
Which doesn't include Pastor Aeternus.  The schism is truly made by humand hands with Latin fingerprints.

3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM
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« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2011, 10:47:57 PM »


And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.

.

Christ is Risen!

Are these two interviews on the Net?  I'd be very grateful if someone gave the links.


B u m p

Bumping this because these are two interviews I would really like to hear.

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« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:13 AM »

Bumping this because these are two interviews I would really like to hear.

Bless Father,

Christos Voskrese!

I do not know if these are the interviews you are lookikng for.  They are in print...not video. The first one was when he was still with the Catholic Church.  The second one was after his conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

http://www.pravmir.com/article_1220.html
http://www.pravmir.com/article_1221.html

Kissing your right hand,
Mickey


« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 08:42:05 AM by Mickey » Logged
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« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2011, 10:26:34 AM »


Thank you very very much.
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