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Author Topic: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion  (Read 9489 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: April 17, 2011, 08:02:15 AM »

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."



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88Devin12
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 08:12:20 AM »

Amazing words from Metropolitan Hilarion, he is truly blessed!
(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 08:37:23 AM »

(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)

He is on the right track. But hardliners wouldn't be happy with him as the patriarch.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:00:32 AM »

(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)

He is on the right track. But hardliners wouldn't be happy with him as the patriarch.
Are they ever happy? Wink
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 12:44:28 PM »

I like this statement, and agree with it very much. A practical example would be a soup kitchen ministry. Instead of both groups setting up separate kitchens to feed the poor, they could collaborate to reach more people with a larger soup kitchen. After all, something like that wouldn't require either side to compromise on doctrine, and would be a benefit to all involved.

Eis polla eti despota!
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 09:38:56 PM »

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion, and neither of us should compromise

Interesting in view of the fact that some of my fellow Catholics have stated or implied that we are already the same.
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »

Prayers and Hope. ....That He's never elected Patriarch....... police

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:04:24 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 11:44:01 PM »

Because of this or something else?
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 11:55:41 PM »

Even thur prayers and Hope that they don't get elected ,The Bad Ones Always seem to be elected.....Gods plan i guess must go thur,How else will the great falling away come to pass ,but thur the bad ones... Grin
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 01:42:44 AM »

Even thur prayers and Hope that they don't get elected ,The Bad Ones Always seem to be elected.....Gods plan i guess must go thur,How else will the great falling away come to pass ,but thur the bad ones... Grin
... really? ugh...
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 12:26:20 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 04:24:14 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 11:11:58 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 12:54:29 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Care to substantiate your slander?

Orthodox: We believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the one which confesses the Orthodox Creed of the Catholic Church as the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils left it. Such Orthodox can commune in any Orthodox Church, as I can personally attest on three continents (four, if Europe counts seperate).

Of course, anyone who submits to the Vatican can commune in your churches. But then so could we Orthodox Catholics if we wanted, and the Nestorians, and the Altkatholisch, the Polish National Catholics etc.  And those with clown masses, and a certain cardinal safe from prosecution for covering up pedophilia.
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 01:09:39 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"

There are now more Cardinals (199) than member UN nations (192).  No wonder the Vatican doesn't join the UN or the WCC; the 199 individual kingdoms consist of the whole world.   Wink

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 02:53:06 AM »

Roman corrupted perception:
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

One more evidence of corruption and lie…
I never heard any of orthodox say such creed.
So if you people lie in small, no one trust you in big.



Real fact:
1. Pop all his corrupt structure are not catholic.
2. “catholic” is Greek word Pop not appreciate and apply for speculation.

No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now, because got brainwashed.
Most common known identification:
-   romans
-   latinans

Orthodox – are only catholic church.

Until Pop and romans  identify them self as “catholic” – no dialog in option.





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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 05:36:06 AM »

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 06:27:38 AM »

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .


So we should just be at war with Roman Catholics at all times?
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 07:01:41 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

On a positive note, this incident has helped me to finally "make up my mind" about Wyatt. (Well, synLeszka too, but that's a name I just barely recognize.)
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 08:00:33 AM »

Roman corrupted perception:
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

One more evidence of corruption and lie…
I never heard any of orthodox say such creed.
So if you people lie in small, no one trust you in big.



Real fact:
1. Pop all his corrupt structure are not catholic.
2. “catholic” is Greek word Pop not appreciate and apply for speculation.

No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now, because got brainwashed.
Most common known identification:
-   romans
-   latinans

Orthodox – are only catholic church.

Until Pop and romans  identify them self as “catholic” – no dialog in option.







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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy

Tit for tat is not necessarily a good strategy, but it can be illustrative on occasion.
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 10:55:36 AM »

No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now

I have a question for you. What do you call the Polish National Catholic Church?
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 10:56:59 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 11:47:02 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 11:50:14 AM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

 laugh laugh laugh

Who cares who you quote!!

I can quote one holy catholic and apostolic Church that says I don't need to believe in any apparitions, and more than that I should not base my faith [[beliefs] in private devotions but in the public work [liturgy] and teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

So who cares what you can do?...not I

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:52:03 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 11:54:01 AM »

For the sake of historical accuracy, I have to remind all,  particularly Alive,  that St. Vladimir accepted Christianity during the period of the undivided Church, prior to the Great Schism. At the time the Constantinopolitan Bishops who received Vladimir and the peoples of the Rus would have regarded the Church of Rome and the Pope as part of the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:54:35 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew
Of course you don't believe it. You believe you are the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church," yet you aren't catholic and you definitely are not one.
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.

The EO are not one. Period. That was my point and why I gave synLeszka an amen. I don't think anyone literally believes that they confess belief in a divided Church. They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do. Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 02:34:24 PM »

Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:34:51 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 02:39:57 PM »

Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.

That's so crazy it just might work.
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 02:57:28 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 03:01:05 PM »

Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.

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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. Tongue  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 03:05:01 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. Tongue  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 angel  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 03:08:04 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. Tongue  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 angel  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...

I never liked his ideas even when I was a RC before I (re)discovered Eastern Christianity.  He employs the kind of rhetoric that just beats you into submission.  He has crazy eyes.  I'm sure he's a very nice, devout person, but his public persona turns me off completely.
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2011, 03:18:09 PM »

He has crazy eyes.

LOL  Shocked
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 03:19:43 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. Tongue  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 angel  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...

I never liked his ideas even when I was a RC before I (re)discovered Eastern Christianity.  He employs the kind of rhetoric that just beats you into submission.  He has crazy eyes.  I'm sure he's a very nice, devout person, but his public persona turns me off completely.

I don't doubt his devotion or his good intentions.  I doubt the usefulness and accuracy of his appointed role as the quintessential Catholic lay spokesperson.  

I've never seen him speak in person [remember I am TV-free] but I was once given several of his tapes to listen to and comment on.  I was not happy with his shading and nuance of several key teachings.  Very protestant with a gloss of Catholic phrasings, and an unwillingness to cut to the chase:  remembering that his talks are mainly directed toward ordinary folk who seem to do best with declarative sentences, I looked for the simple assertions of adult catechesis, and found them missing.

So if you add wild eyes to that...well... Wink...

M.
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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 03:21:24 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.  The situation with the Orthodox in the US isn't all that different from a century ago when one could find English, Irish, Italian, Polish, and other Roman Catholic parishes within a block of each other in the major cities (and language can't be the excuse, at the time they all celebrated in Latin!).  The main difference is that in the case with the Orthodox the differing jurisdictions each answer to a different Patriarch or Metropolitan, while the Roman Catholic parishes answered ultimately to the Pope.  Still, it wasn't until sixty years ago the ethnic differences in the Roman parishes began to fade.  Given that the major waves of the Orthodox immigration to this country was just starting as the Roman immigration was just finishing we aren't really all that far behind.

As for Roman Catholic ethnicities "coexisting" any better than the Orthodox despite the supposed "unifying influence" of the Pope, Western European history tells a far different story (the Hundred Years War, anyone?).
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 03:34:30 PM »

I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.  The situation with the Orthodox in the US isn't all that different from a century ago when one could find English, Irish, Italian, Polish, and other Roman Catholic parishes within a block of each other in the major cities (and language can't be the excuse, at the time they all celebrated in Latin!).  The main difference is that in the case with the Orthodox the differing jurisdictions each answer to a different Patriarch or Metropolitan, while the Roman Catholic parishes answered ultimately to the Pope.  Still, it wasn't until sixty years ago the ethnic differences in the Roman parishes began to fade.  Given that the major waves of the Orthodox immigration to this country was just starting as the Roman immigration was just finishing we aren't really all that far behind.

As for Roman Catholic ethnicities "coexisting" any better than the Orthodox despite the supposed "unifying influence" of the Pope, Western European history tells a far different story (the Hundred Years War, anyone?).

I would hope that everyone reading your message here would give your brush-off of the unifying character of a single sacral language another look.

Even as a child of four, I was singing in a children's choir.  We sang all Saturday morning requiem masses.  And by the time I began first grade I was very fluent in "Church" Latin within the context of the liturgy and the hymns.  It is the kind of fluency one gets with prayers that are chanted rather than prayers that are recited.

But that unifying character of the sacral language is not just something you or anyone else can poke under the rug along with every other inconvenient truth.
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2011, 03:42:08 PM »

I think that's his point, though, Mary.  That even though there was the unifying sacral language, as you put it, people still organized themselves according to their ancenstral ethnicity, even after the second or third generation.  Remember, it was also only until recently that the Orthodox, at least the Slavs, had a unifying sacral language, as well, and even that change is still in flux.
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« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2011, 03:47:22 PM »

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of just about everything in the history of Christianity in general. Uniform Church a'la modern RC apologetics is an utopia that has never existed anywhere.
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2011, 03:57:00 PM »

I think that's his point, though, Mary.  That even though there was the unifying sacral language, as you put it, people still organized themselves according to their ancenstral ethnicity, even after the second or third generation.  Remember, it was also only until recently that the Orthodox, at least the Slavs, had a unifying sacral language, as well, and even that change is still in flux.

I understand.  I do.  Way back in my other life I was an armchair Marxist and tried to believe in Lenin's Internationalism only to find myself morphed into a raving nationalist.  I'd like to think that I've regained some balance in these kinds of discussions...We'll see.

But the very fact that people are kin-tuned and clanish makes the unifying character of language a very essential element in crafting unity in diversity and sometimes wresting order from chaos...but nothing sits still in real life...etc.

This could be a very interesting discussion on its own merits.

M.
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2011, 04:25:39 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

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 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

 laugh laugh laugh

Who cares who you quote!!

I can quote one holy catholic and apostolic Church that says I don't need to believe in any apparitions, and more than that I should not base my faith [[beliefs] in private devotions but in the public work [liturgy] and teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

So who cares what you can do?...not I

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium. That's between you and them. Just don't expect us to submit to those who make such meaningless gestures with such fanfare, or reproach us for wanting nothing to do with them.
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« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2011, 04:28:01 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
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« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2011, 04:34:07 PM »

Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  Huh You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  Tongue

In Christ,
Andrew

 Cheesy  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   Cheesy
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.

The EO are not one. Period. That was my point and why I gave synLeszka an amen. I don't think anyone literally believes that they confess belief in a divided Church.
We do all the time, with the unaltered words of Ecumenical Councils "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Churc."

They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.
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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2011, 04:35:04 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2011, 04:49:03 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 04:52:35 PM »

Another one Porvoo agitator.
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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 04:53:39 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.
Cooperation can be had on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth, but communion comes only from confessing the Orthodox Faith.
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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 05:04:26 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.
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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 05:06:00 PM »





They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.


It's unfortunate that someone always insists on referencing "the clown masses"  Sad.  Given that the plural was used, just how many of them were there, anyway?  As appalling as "they" were, they are hardly representative of Catholicism, even though some would like to think are.  It or they are only representative of pride and sinfulness, and abuse of the Liturgy.  To equate them with Catholicism is totally disingenuous.  It would be equally disingenuous of me were I to keep talking about the abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice that I have personally witnessed and to equate them with Orthodoxy.  C'mon, Isa, of all people you should know better than that.  It is comments like that that make any kind of dialog between Catholics and Orthodox almost impossible.  If you or anyone else is so opposed to dialog (and I am *not* saying you are) then why even discuss anything with Catholics?
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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2011, 05:23:21 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?

Yes.
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2011, 05:47:43 PM »





They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.


It's unfortunate that someone always insists on referencing "the clown masses"  Sad.  Given that the plural was used, just how many of them were there, anyway?  As appalling as "they" were, they are hardly representative of Catholicism, even though some would like to think are.  It or they are only representative of pride and sinfulness, and abuse of the Liturgy.  To equate them with Catholicism is totally disingenuous.  It would be equally disingenuous of me were I to keep talking about the abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice that I have personally witnessed and to equate them with Orthodoxy.  C'mon, Isa, of all people you should know better than that.  It is comments like that that make any kind of dialog between Catholics and Orthodox almost impossible.  If you or anyone else is so opposed to dialog (and I am *not* saying you are) then why even discuss anything with Catholics?
If someone is going to claim the Vatican is a united monolith, I want the details of what that entails.

So, what abuses of Orthodox liturgical practice are you talking about?  You need not limit yourself to those you have personally witnessed.
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2011, 06:01:02 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2011, 06:07:57 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?

Only when you make them bigger than they are.
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 06:30:27 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2011, 06:39:56 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2011, 07:01:31 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.

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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2011, 07:24:21 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

Quote
... It then addresses the question of Catholics receiving the sacraments from non-Catholics. It sets the following strict conditions:

    a. necessity or genuine spiritual advantage
    b. when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided
    c. it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister
    d. a church which has valid sacraments
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2011, 07:29:17 PM »

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.

It's really my fault. I forgot that, as a Catholic, it's my duty to take cheap shots against the Orthodox whenever possible.  By not doing so, I'm effectively guilty of hating my fellow Catholics. Embarrassed
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2011, 07:50:53 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.


You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.

My contention is that if it can be done for some then it can be done for all, IF we had the will to do so.



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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2011, 07:54:28 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

I fully expect that just as there will never be another Unia there will never be another false union like there was during the Council of Florence.

This time the union will be true and it will perdure.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2011, 08:11:11 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Yes, I certainly did notice that that's one of the criteria.

Once more, your level of presumptuousness absolutely astounds me.
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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.



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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2011, 08:32:30 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation, it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills, such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).  

Over the course of the years I have been privileged to walk and talk with people of both Churches and benefited by attending both the DL and the Catholic Mass. I can vouch that, among cradle Orthodox there is a true attitude of respect for RC's (I've been told numerous times by Orthodox faithful that the Catholic Church was the "same religion" as theirs).  It seems like a lot of this recent, anti ecumenical trouble has been stirred up in Orthodoxy by 1.  Hyper Slavic and Russian nationalist who seek to cause trouble and provoke hostility amongst eachother and use religion as a weapon to do so (This is especially true in regions like the Balkans and is sadly practiced by both RC's as well as OC's).
2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.


These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union, but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.
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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2011, 08:33:55 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2011, 08:35:24 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.





That's the Holy Spirit at work.  He works through the common people to ferment the Union of Churches.  These people in the pews on both sides of the aisle sense that the differences between the RCC and OCC are not as great as that which Unites us.  Plus, your Ukrainian so I'm guessing that Ukrainians like to participate in eachothers cultural events, regardless of what Church their at (Especially if it's a Ukrainian one).
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:14 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:49 PM »

I don't think anyone needs to make them bigger than they are. Recognizing them for what they are (should Rome ever decide to do this in a concrete matter) is enough. They are not merely different ways of looking at the same thing, because if they were we would already have healed the Great Schism. The fact is, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ontologically different. Their understandings, while they certainly concern the same "things", are not different in a way that is complementary or acceptable to either communion.

Apparently that is not entirely true.  The Catholic Church clearly thinks we are not identical in our expression of the faith but we teach the same truth sufficiently so that were I to be in an area where Orthodox priests did not refuse communion to Catholics then I would be able to receive communion without hesitation.



See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  If what is holding you back, is a belief in something R. Catholicism teaches, then you should not "want" to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church, as it would be against your beliefs.

I simply ask, because I see this all the time in our Orthodox church.  Catholic parents want their kids who already did their First Communion in an RC church to join our kids in First Holy Confession. 

Another family wanted their baby baptized in an Orthodox Church, yet, they wanted both godparents to be Catholic.

I just don't get it.


I won't become Orthodox because Orthodoxy materially refuses to enter into communion with the Church of my Baptism and because I do not believe the schism to have a formal foundation in reality, I will continue to refuse to participate in it by "converting" and renouncing the Catholic Church.

I don't understand how you can't understand that.

M.
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2011, 08:41:55 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.

M.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2011, 08:43:48 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.

M.

Amen to that!
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2011, 08:49:35 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation. 



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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2011, 08:54:26 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox?  

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation.  

I believe we are distinct in very many ways.  I believe we were distinct even when we were in communion.

I don't believe that we are so different that we do not share the same Eucharist.  I believe we share Apostolic Succession and I believe all of our sacraments are graced.  I do not believe that one is a branch of the other.  I believe all Catholic Churches, Orthodox and papal, are true particular Churches and should be governed as such and I believe we ALL have very distinct traditions that should be protected and cherished.

I do not believe that any of the distinctions are grounds for schism or loss of communion. 

I believe that as long as I am prepared to receive communion according to the tradition of the Orthodox parish where I would receive communion then I should be able to commune there as well as in my eastern Catholic parish, or in the Latin rite parish in which I returned to the faith many years ago.
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2011, 09:10:35 PM »


Thank you for your answer.

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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2011, 09:13:04 PM »

See...I have an issue with this.  ElijahMaria, maybe you can clarify it for me.

How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

LizaSymonenko,

No offense, I hope, but what you're saying here seems to me to be an awful lot like what Catholics said to Orthodox to initiate the Union of Brest: We're really the same already, so why don't you come over to our side?

Well...I am hardly forcing someone to convert, and ruining their lives if they don't.  However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

Besides I am not the one who said "We're really are the same already....".  I think we are quite different....and more than in human interpretation. 

You make two good points there.

What I meant is that saying "If we're the same, then you should come over to our side" is completely wrong (even apart from the use of force). On the contrary, if we're the same, then there's no good reason for anyone to break off communion with one and join the other. (That's one reason why I'm bothered by J Michael breaking off communion with the Catholic Church but continuing to receive communion in it.)
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« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2011, 09:17:15 PM »


Thank you for your answer.



I think you can see from my response that even if there were the resumption of communion tomorrow, I would not be in favor of a recklessly open-door policy.  Not at all.  If you do not know the traditions and have not lived liturgically in any particular Church for a time, then one should not simply expect to walk up to communion simply because they feel like it.  There would have to be sufficient desire to want become part of the local community first, know the customs, rites and rituals, and only then, communion.

M.
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« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2011, 09:17:59 PM »

However, I'm not offended, I am just trying to understand...that if someone is RC...why do they wish to participate in the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church?

I don't think it's all that strange, anymore than I think it's strange that many Anglicans, Lutherans, and other Protestants would receive communion in the Catholic Church, if the Catholic Church said they could.
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2011, 10:11:37 PM »


See....that makes no sense to me, whatsoever.

Why label yourself Anglican, Lutheran, etc.....and go to a Catholic Church to receive Communion?

Why not go to an Anglican, if you are Anglican;  Lutheran if you are Lutheran, etc?

If you find something within your own denomination, that keeps you there....why go elsewhere?  Why the NEED to go elsewhere?  Why wouldn't they be happy with their own?

Personally, I have no need, nor want, to go anywhere outside of an Orthodox Church....even if someone said it were okay.  Why, if I believe all the tenets of my own Church and hold them dear, would I go elsewhere?

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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2011, 10:56:58 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.
Which doesn't include Pastor Aeternus.  The schism is truly made by humand hands with Latin fingerprints.
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« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Robb.  Seriously?  Practically the same...with some major differences.

Are these actually "differences" or just different ways of looking at the same issues?
You honestly think belief in the infallible authority of a supreme pontiff and continued profession of an unauthorized addition to the Creed are NOT major differences, that they're merely different ways of looking at the same issues? Even if they are merely different ways of looking at the same issues, those differences of method are pretty major in and of themselves, don't you think?

Only when you make them bigger than they are.
As St. John of Damascus, and all the Fathers and Mothers taught, a small thing is not a small thing, when it leads to something great.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. No need to to kneed in the foul leaven of filioque and the Vatican's claims to spoil the pure Bread from Heaven.
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2011, 11:02:29 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
yes, and I intened to keep it that way.
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2011, 11:07:59 PM »

Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .


So we should just be at war with Roman Catholics at all times?


What war?
Who we?

“War” as opposition to lie - yes.
Christians (orthodox) in constant opposition to heretics and corruption etc/ and you ask me should we continue to oppose? 

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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2011, 11:11:29 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.

Good grief!!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2011, 11:13:05 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives. Why then can't we just have unity with eachother? The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever. Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide. With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Didn't learn from Florence, did you?

Well, It doesn't have to just like Florence, but certainly there should be reunion based on sound principles of Christian Commonwealth.

Sounds principles of Christian Commonwealth are precisely what lead away from reunion (at this point at least)!
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« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2011, 11:14:54 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation,
Not according to the Vatican. We do quite fine without its supreme pontiff. We are lacking nothing.

it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills,
The problem is the mountain that the Ultramontanists have made out of Vatican Hill.

such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).
Sad that you find the Holy Trinity a trivial matter.  Why don't we bow to Mecca while we are at it?

Over the course of the years I have been privileged to walk and talk with people of both Churches and benefited by attending both the DL and the Catholic Mass. I can vouch that, among cradle Orthodox there is a true attitude of respect for RC's (I've been told numerous times by Orthodox faithful that the Catholic Church was the "same religion" as theirs).  It seems like a lot of this recent, anti ecumenical trouble has been stirred up in Orthodoxy by 1.  Hyper Slavic and Russian nationalist who seek to cause trouble and provoke hostility amongst eachother and use religion as a weapon to do so (This is especially true in regions like the Balkans and is sadly practiced by both RC's as well as OC's).
2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.
3. The reiteration of the Vatican of its supremist claims, which in part created the Protestants, and against which Russia has historically (Florence, Brest-Lvov, etc) has served as a bulwark.

These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union, but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.
Their supreme pontiff can repent of the error of his ways at any time. Read the epistles of the Eastern Patriarchs, all anti-slav and without Protestant influence:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
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« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.

It's really my fault. I forgot that, as a Catholic, it's my duty to take cheap shots against the Orthodox whenever possible.  By not doing so, I'm effectively guilty of hating my fellow Catholics. Embarrassed

LMAO  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2011, 11:19:50 PM »


Thank you for your answer.



I think you can see from my response that even if there were the resumption of communion tomorrow, I would not be in favor of a recklessly open-door policy.  Not at all.  If you do not know the traditions and have not lived liturgically in any particular Church for a time, then one should not simply expect to walk up to communion simply because they feel like it.  There would have to be sufficient desire to want become part of the local community first, know the customs, rites and rituals, and only then, communion.

M.
I have gone to communion in over a dozen local Churches and in the WRO, and had no problem because no matter the difference in custom, rites and rituals we all confess the SAME Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church.  If you are prepared, yes, you should simply expect to walk up to commune to any Orthodox priest.
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« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2011, 11:21:18 PM »

I fully expect that ... there will never be another false union like there was during the Council of Florence.

I wouldn't be too sure. There already is one in the works.
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« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2011, 11:30:36 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism are essentially one in those matters of faith which are necessary for salvation, it is we the individuals who make mountains out of moll hills, such as the Filique and some other trivial issues which could easily be resolved (Especially by fostering an attitude of friendship and mutual respect for one another).

Teaching that the Father alone Spirates the Spirit is an essential doctrine of the Orthodox Christian faith. Filioque is not a molehill.

2.  By the influx of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy, especially in the U.S. who take their extreme anti Catholic rhetoric with them.  These "Ortho-Prots" cause more harm then good because, by hating and causing friction between Churches based on their own prejudices, they prevent the atmosphere of Ecumenical progress that's necessary for genuine dialogue and eventual reunion between the Churches.

I never was an anti-Romanist Protestant. Before I spent all that much time exploring Orthodoxy I was actually a Tractarian Branch Theorist. I developed my "hard-line" stance against Romanism only through exploration of Orthodoxy. As much as this syndrome is true for some, quite simply you are exaggerating its prevalence and place in anti-Romanist Orthodoxy.


These two groups the ultra slavophile nationalist on one hand and the Protestant converts on the other are chipping away at true union,

There is no true union between the Romanists and Orthodoxy. There is no chipping away. True union is found only in the Orthodox Church.

but the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh by thwarting them all and producing a genuine reunion of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ.

Only an insane or ignorant ecclesiology would lead one to this suggestion that the Catholic Church is so divided and in need of reunion with itself in its constituent parts.
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« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2011, 11:34:15 PM »


Thank you for your answer.



I think you can see from my response that even if there were the resumption of communion tomorrow, I would not be in favor of a recklessly open-door policy.  Not at all.  If you do not know the traditions and have not lived liturgically in any particular Church for a time, then one should not simply expect to walk up to communion simply because they feel like it.  There would have to be sufficient desire to want become part of the local community first, know the customs, rites and rituals, and only then, communion.

M.

Communion should be because of oneness of faith.
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« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2011, 11:39:06 PM »

I have gone to communion in over a dozen local Churches and in the WRO, and had no problem because no matter the difference in custom, rites and rituals we all confess the SAME Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church.  If you are prepared, yes, you should simply expect to walk up to commune to any Orthodox priest.

*thumbs up*
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« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2011, 12:02:17 AM »

As someone who has been under Rome and just recently got out from under that, erm...union, I can say with no anti-Roman sentiment that I did not leave one communion just to join another that is "basically" the same as it is. If you think the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox church are so similar as to be basically the same, then that says far more negative things about the prospect of reunion than even most hardcore anti-Roman position could say.

As for Slavophilia or Convertitis, I think this is massively overblown (though, yes, I will admit I have seen it too). What about those of us who would join the Oriental Orthodox, who have no Slavic component? What are we, then? Crypto-Ethiopians? Coptologists in the making? Pseudo-Syrians? Get outta here with that!
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« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2011, 12:07:15 AM »

What about those of us who would join the Oriental Orthodox, who have no Slavic component? What are we, then? Crypto-Ethiopians? Coptologists in the making? Pseudo-Syrians? Get outta here with that!

 Grin
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« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2011, 04:47:58 AM »


The problem is, the Filioque isn't just semantics. Christianity isn't just about spreading love and peace. It's about worshiping God and entering into communion with him, and helping others enter communion with him. He has given us his Church, and his very Body and Blood. We must protect both, and when someone denies the true God, we have to protect them and the gifts. This means that unfortunately, when one changes the faith that God himself has given us, we cannot commune them anymore. That is the simple fact, it may be sad, but so is all sin. Excommunication isn't some kind of punishment, just as hell isn't some kind of punishment. It's a consequence of sin.

Christianity isn't, and never has been about feeling good and being lovey-dovey with everyone around us. It's consisted of both faith and works, you can't have one without the other. If you truly love, you will have faith, if you have faith, you will love and do good. Reducing Christianity to just "loving" and spreading "peace" is (honestly) insulting to not just our faith, but to God himself.

He walked in the heat of day, on gray dusty roads,
walking He taught us to love and forgive,
He ate with publicans, He did not know, who was an enemy,
He bowed before those who needed His help

My Teacher, before is my road,
which I have to walk just like you,
My Master, all around me are people,
whom I must love just like Thee

Your emphasis on solely worshipping God is pagan at best. Your Christianity, Devin, is a state religion, where the police are used to bring the bedbound to church, so as to fulfill the legal obligation. Your Christianity is not  the Christian martyrs, who did not want Christianity to become the religion of the Antichrist, the Roman civic religion.
Christianity is love. Christianity is not the power of the state used to punish heretics. Christianity is love.
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« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2011, 04:49:09 AM »

Your emphasis on solely worshipping God is pagan at best. Your Christianity, Devin, is a state religion, where the police are used to bring the bedbound to church, so as to fulfill the legal obligation. Your Christianity is not  the Christian martyrs, who did not want Christianity to become the religion of the Antichrist, the Roman civic religion.
Christianity is love. Christianity is not the power of the state used to punish heretics. Christianity is love.

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« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2011, 06:09:58 AM »


The problem is, the Filioque isn't just semantics. Christianity isn't just about spreading love and peace. It's about worshiping God and entering into communion with him, and helping others enter communion with him. He has given us his Church, and his very Body and Blood. We must protect both, and when someone denies the true God, we have to protect them and the gifts. This means that unfortunately, when one changes the faith that God himself has given us, we cannot commune them anymore. That is the simple fact, it may be sad, but so is all sin. Excommunication isn't some kind of punishment, just as hell isn't some kind of punishment. It's a consequence of sin.

Christianity isn't, and never has been about feeling good and being lovey-dovey with everyone around us. It's consisted of both faith and works, you can't have one without the other. If you truly love, you will have faith, if you have faith, you will love and do good. Reducing Christianity to just "loving" and spreading "peace" is (honestly) insulting to not just our faith, but to God himself.

He walked in the heat of day, on gray dusty roads,
walking He taught us to love and forgive,
He ate with publicans, He did not know, who was an enemy,
He bowed before those who needed His help

My Teacher, before is my road,
which I have to walk just like you,
My Master, all around me are people,
whom I must love just like Thee

Your emphasis on solely worshipping God is pagan at best. Your Christianity, Devin, is a state religion, where the police are used to bring the bedbound to church, so as to fulfill the legal obligation. Your Christianity is not  the Christian martyrs, who did not want Christianity to become the religion of the Antichrist, the Roman civic religion.
Christianity is love. Christianity is not the power of the state used to punish heretics. Christianity is love.

I think you misunderstand me greatly. This is my Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8
http://youtu.be/sAlCze3ZFjA

I love others, but that love is not the limits of my faith. To limit Christianity to love and good deeds is something I have found all too often in Protestant Christianity. It's to ignore Christ himself, not to mention his holy pure Church and it's Saints.

Christianity is far more than just faith, and is far more than just works, it is both faith and works, and it's even more. We cannot limit it to one or the other.

I love and pray for the return of the Church of Rome and her members. But even the Prodigal Son had a conversion experience and experienced metanoia, deep repentance. Our Church will always be hoping, praying, and watching for those who come running home. But we cannot forsake our own household to achieve that reunion.
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« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2011, 10:00:51 AM »


The problem is, the Filioque isn't just semantics.

The real problem for me and many others is that, for most all of the contested doctrine, what Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches, I've only ever heard it from Orthodox believers.  My Church does not teach what you all say it teaches.

That is a major reason that I can not "convert" to Orthodoxy.  I can't teach Catholic doctrine Orthodox style.  It makes no sense to me at all. 
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« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2011, 10:10:12 AM »

So, what does your church teach?

No Filioque?  No papal infallibility?  No Immaculate Conception? No indulgences, purgatory, etc?

....because that would be interesting.

You stated that it is "what the Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches".  Does the Catholic Church not teach these things?
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« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2011, 10:22:13 AM »

So, what does your church teach?

No Filioque?  No papal infallibility?  No Immaculate Conception? No indulgences, purgatory, etc?

....because that would be interesting.

You stated that it is "what the Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches".  Does the Catholic Church not teach these things?


Meaning.  The meaning of the teaching is not the same when delivered to me by my Church and when delivered to me by Orthodoxy.  You don't tell me accurately what my Church means.

That's why we continue to dialogue...or so it seems to me.

To me, Palamas, St. Gregory is a good example of what I am talking about only in the other direction.

I still argue with Catholics who think that St. Gregory is a heretic because he entirely separates the essence of God from the energies of God in his teaching.  Thankfully I have the homilies in English now to work with as well as the Triads, because the Homilies clarify certain things that are not precisely clear in the Triads.

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy.  

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.
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« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2011, 11:16:48 AM »

So, what does your church teach?

No Filioque?  No papal infallibility?  No Immaculate Conception? No indulgences, purgatory, etc?

....because that would be interesting.

You stated that it is "what the Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches".  Does the Catholic Church not teach these things?


Meaning.  The meaning of the teaching is not the same when delivered to me by my Church and when delivered to me by Orthodoxy.  You don't tell me accurately what my Church means.

That's why we continue to dialogue...or so it seems to me.

To me, Palamas, St. Gregory is a good example of what I am talking about only in the other direction.

I still argue with Catholics who think that St. Gregory is a heretic because he entirely separates the essence of God from the energies of God in his teaching.  Thankfully I have the homilies in English now to work with as well as the Triads, because the Homilies clarify certain things that are not precisely clear in the Triads.

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy.  

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.
I think that many of us Latins are with you there on St. Gregory, with the addition that there are times when he needs to be a little more careful with his theological language, but heck, the same could be said of St. Augustine who is a doctor of the Church.
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« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2011, 11:28:27 AM »


I think that many of us Latins are with you there on St. Gregory, with the addition that there are times when he needs to be a little more careful with his theological language, but heck, the same could be said of St. Augustine who is a doctor of the Church.

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.
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« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2011, 11:44:55 AM »


I think that many of us Latins are with you there on St. Gregory, with the addition that there are times when he needs to be a little more careful with his theological language, but heck, the same could be said of St. Augustine who is a doctor of the Church.

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.
I understand that you and I differ a bit on this, but I don't have a problem with that, as we are both Catholic and share the same faith. I just think that its dangerous for St. Gregory to say that God's essence transcends His energies infinitely, and an infinte number of times. Such language sorta of reduces his energies to psuedo divine status, and reflects an over dependence on Neo-Platonic thought. I see what St. Gregory was trying to do, and I don't think he is a ditheist heretic. I just think that such language is a bit dangerous.
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« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2011, 11:49:20 AM »

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.

Just curious. What would you say about Will R. Huysman's approach towards St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism? If you are not familiar with his writings on this topic:
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-1.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-2.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2009/09/orthodoxy-of-st-gregory-palamas.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2008/10/thomism-and-palamism-compared.html
- http://www.google.pl/search?q=palamas+OR+palamism+site%3Athebananarepublican.blogspot.com
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« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2011, 12:19:45 PM »

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.

Just curious. What would you say about Will R. Huysman's approach towards St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism? If you are not familiar with his writings on this topic:
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-1.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-2.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2009/09/orthodoxy-of-st-gregory-palamas.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2008/10/thomism-and-palamism-compared.html
- http://www.google.pl/search?q=palamas+site%3Athebananarepublican.blogspot.com

I think that Will's are some of the best short treatises on the Internet.  I don't always agree with him but there's meat there on the bones.  He is right when he suggests that St. Gregory does not have the philosophical subtlety that is in evidence in the writings of the two Gregorys of Cappadocia, but he misses something in all of that.  He misses the fact that St. Gregory is not meeting a metaphysical analysis with another metaphysical analysis.  He is meeting a very negative critique of praxis and an existential phenomena with a theo-logical and practical explanation of that phenomena that is in some ways unique to him and to his monks in that moment...the explanation, not the experience.  He is working much closer to the ground than the Cappadocians were doing in their Trinitarian writings.

We'd have to look more specifically for me to say much more.  I don't think Will's heart is in the wrong place.  He's not nearly as sympathetic as I am, for example, and much more abstract in his thinking and writing...in terms of living a monastic or eremitic existence...but I sure would not put him or his work out with the trash!  Nor would I see him as someone who would not or could not adjust his thinking.

M.
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« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2011, 12:22:34 PM »

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.

Just curious. What would you say about Will R. Huysman's approach towards St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism? If you are not familiar with his writings on this topic:
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-1.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-2.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2009/09/orthodoxy-of-st-gregory-palamas.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2008/10/thomism-and-palamism-compared.html
- http://www.google.pl/search?q=palamas+site%3Athebananarepublican.blogspot.com

I think that Will's are some of the best short treatises on the Internet.  I don't always agree with him but there's meat there on the bones.  He is right when he suggests that St. Gregory does not have the philosophical subtlety that is in evidence in the writings of the two Gregorys of Cappadocia, but he misses something in all of that.  He misses the fact that St. Gregory is not meeting a metaphysical analysis with another metaphysical analysis.  He is meeting a very negative critique of praxis and an existential phenomena with a theo-logical and practical explanation of that phenomena that is in some ways unique to him and to his monks in that moment...the explanation, not the experience.  He is working much closer to the ground than the Cappadocians were doing in their Trinitarian writings.

We'd have to look more specifically for me to say much more.  I don't think Will's heart is in the wrong place.  He's not nearly as sympathetic as I am, for example, and much more abstract in his thinking and writing...in terms of living a monastic or eremitic existence...but I sure would not put him or his work out with the trash!  Nor would I see him as someone who would not or could not adjust his thinking.

M.

Thank you, Mary.
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« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2011, 12:47:24 PM »

I don't see that.  I think many Latins read and have read him as though he is using certain words the way Aquinas used them. He isn't, so you have to look for meaning in context rather than words in black and white.  These teachers that are referenced here are exceptionally careful with words.  More than most of us.

Just curious. What would you say about Will R. Huysman's approach towards St. Gregory Palamas and Palamism? If you are not familiar with his writings on this topic:
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-1.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2011/02/palamas-patristics-2.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2009/09/orthodoxy-of-st-gregory-palamas.html
- http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2008/10/thomism-and-palamism-compared.html
- http://www.google.pl/search?q=palamas+site%3Athebananarepublican.blogspot.com

I think that Will's are some of the best short treatises on the Internet.  I don't always agree with him but there's meat there on the bones.  He is right when he suggests that St. Gregory does not have the philosophical subtlety that is in evidence in the writings of the two Gregorys of Cappadocia, but he misses something in all of that.  He misses the fact that St. Gregory is not meeting a metaphysical analysis with another metaphysical analysis.  He is meeting a very negative critique of praxis and an existential phenomena with a theo-logical and practical explanation of that phenomena that is in some ways unique to him and to his monks in that moment...the explanation, not the experience.  He is working much closer to the ground than the Cappadocians were doing in their Trinitarian writings.

We'd have to look more specifically for me to say much more.  I don't think Will's heart is in the wrong place.  He's not nearly as sympathetic as I am, for example, and much more abstract in his thinking and writing...in terms of living a monastic or eremitic existence...but I sure would not put him or his work out with the trash!  Nor would I see him as someone who would not or could not adjust his thinking.

M.

Thank you, Mary.

Welcome!  If you want to start a new thread after Bright Week, it would be a good thing to discuss on the way to Pentecost...

Christ is Risen!

M.
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« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2011, 01:11:56 PM »

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy. 

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.

There are, of course, those Orthodox that have taken more than just a “close look” at Roman Catholic teaching, particularly among those patristic scholars such as Fr. Gabriel (Bunge) and Fr. Placide (Deseille), who entered Orthodoxy after years of wrestling with the Orthodox-Catholic differences to an extent that few have.  Many Orthodox who I have seen refer to Roman Catholic teaching tend to go to the sources of these teachings in either particular Roman Catholic councils where the teachings were established, or in the Roman Catholic Catechism.  Sure, on forums such as this one you may encounter a lot of people who have never taken a very close look at Roman Catholic or Orthodox teaching, but rather prefer to just share opinions and thoughts rather than take the time to carefully examine authoritative documents of either faith.  On such forums you will likely see many misconceptions, particularly among the Orthodox laity, but to take the opinions expressed by anonymous Orthodox on Internet forums as a basis for determining how Roman Catholicism is understood by the Orthodox, would be a big mistake I think. 

Regarding the “returning of favors”, if Roman Catholics admire and highly respect something in Orthodoxy, and if Orthodox do not see anything worthwhile in post-schism Roman Catholicism, this should not be thought of in terms of a lack of charity on the part of the Orthodox.  It could very well be a matter of conviction that follows from careful examination, a sincere conviction that Orthodoxy is the true Church in all its fullness and glory.  What can be added to or taken away from “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15) or the “fullness of him that filleth all in all” (Eph 1:23)?
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« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2011, 01:22:01 PM »

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy. 

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.

There are, of course, those Orthodox that have taken more than just a “close look” at Roman Catholic teaching, particularly among those patristic scholars such as Fr. Gabriel (Bunge) and Fr. Placide (Deseille), who entered Orthodoxy after years of wrestling with the Orthodox-Catholic differences to an extent that few have.  Many Orthodox who I have seen refer to Roman Catholic teaching tend to go to the sources of these teachings in either particular Roman Catholic councils where the teachings were established, or in the Roman Catholic Catechism.  Sure, on forums such as this one you may encounter a lot of people who have never taken a very close look at Roman Catholic or Orthodox teaching, but rather prefer to just share opinions and thoughts rather than take the time to carefully examine authoritative documents of either faith.  On such forums you will likely see many misconceptions, particularly among the Orthodox laity, but to take the opinions expressed by anonymous Orthodox on Internet forums as a basis for determining how Roman Catholicism is understood by the Orthodox, would be a big mistake I think. 


There's more to the Father Placide story than meets the eye...or I'll eat my shoes.  There's no way to prove it but I've been around a long time and there's a bitterness there that is not just a mid-life discovery that the Catholic Church is in error.

And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.

And I am not looking at Orthodox on the Internet for my grasp of Orthodoxy's misrepresentations of Catholic teaching.  I am looking first and foremost at parish experience on the ground and then at scholar-monks and priests whose work I can access in English....and THEN I see these things echoed here on the Internet.

M.
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« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2011, 01:22:53 PM »

So, what does your church teach?

No Filioque?  No papal infallibility?  No Immaculate Conception? No indulgences, purgatory, etc?

....because that would be interesting.

You stated that it is "what the Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches".  Does the Catholic Church not teach these things?


Meaning.  The meaning of the teaching is not the same when delivered to me by my Church and when delivered to me by Orthodoxy.  You don't tell me accurately what my Church means.

That's why we continue to dialogue...or so it seems to me.

To me, Palamas, St. Gregory is a good example of what I am talking about only in the other direction.

I still argue with Catholics who think that St. Gregory is a heretic because he entirely separates the essence of God from the energies of God in his teaching.  Thankfully I have the homilies in English now to work with as well as the Triads, because the Homilies clarify certain things that are not precisely clear in the Triads.

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy.  

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.
Au contraire, it is very common.
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« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2011, 01:29:24 PM »

There's more to the Father Placide story than meets the eye...or I'll eat my shoes.  There's no way to prove it but I've been around a long time and there's a bitterness there that is not just a mid-life discovery that the Catholic Church is in error.

And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.

So, why did they leave then?
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« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2011, 01:41:26 PM »

There's more to the Father Placide story than meets the eye...or I'll eat my shoes.  There's no way to prove it but I've been around a long time and there's a bitterness there that is not just a mid-life discovery that the Catholic Church is in error.

And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.

So, why did they leave then?

I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

Father Bunge lived in the sort of liminal space that I live in and finally he went to the place where people understood him best, and where he could be most at home liturgically and spiritually and habitually.  That is what I believe.

M.
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« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2011, 01:44:10 PM »

V
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« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2011, 01:45:06 PM »

And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.
 

So you are suggesting that two mature monastics who are renowned for their patristic scholarship make such a serious decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church to be received by the Orthodox Church, and this decision had nothing to do with doctrinal reasons?  Now, that is a tough one to swallow.  Regarding Fr. Gabriel’s silence on doctrinal issues following his conversion, perhaps he is simply attempting to show some discretion.  There are still very many Roman Catholics who are close to him and respect him, and at this time the quiet witness of his conversion may be of more help to them in coming to understand why he made such a decision, whereas a loud denunciation of “Latin heresies” may only serve to alienate and further anger those Roman Catholics who may be shocked or confused about such a major decision.

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« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2011, 01:52:27 PM »

And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.
 

So you are suggesting that two mature monastics who are renowned for their patristic scholarship make such a serious decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church to be received by the Orthodox Church, and this decision had nothing to do with doctrinal reasons?  Now, that is a tough one to swallow.  Regarding Fr. Gabriel’s silence on doctrinal issues following his conversion, perhaps he is simply attempting to show some discretion.  There are still very many Roman Catholics who are close to him and respect him, and at this time the quiet witness of his conversion may be of more help to them in coming to understand why he made such a decision, whereas a loud denunciation of “Latin heresies” may only serve to alienate and further anger those Roman Catholics who may be shocked or confused about such a major decision.



Yes.  I am strongly suggesting that in both cases there was more to it than doctrine.  That is exactly what I am suggesting.  I am also suggesting that there will probably be a better opportunity to find out if I am right or just blind from Father Gabriel than from Father Placide.

And I see here on this very Forum that the idea of shocking Latins is the LAST thing on the list of no-no's...That is not real to my ears.  I believe Father Gabriel is a much more honest man than that.
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« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2011, 02:26:47 PM »


Yes.  I am strongly suggesting that in both cases there was more to it than doctrine.  That is exactly what I am suggesting.  I am also suggesting that there will probably be a better opportunity to find out if I am right or just blind from Father Gabriel than from Father Placide.
 

I suppose that to say there “was more to it than doctrine” may be a valid claim, since there is more in general to the Church than doctrine alone.  However, it is impossible that the decision of these two fathers to be received into the Orthodox Church was made without seriously considering the doctrine of both faiths. 

Have you read Archimandrite Placide’s story, found in English under the title “Stages of a Pilgrimage” and published in the book “The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain: Contemporary Voices from Mount Athos” by Hieromonk Alexander (Golotzin)?  If not, I would highly recommend it.  Below are a few excerpts regarding the “doctrinal” aspect of his journey, though the complete story should be read and considered carefully.  I must say that I find no bitterness, anger, or resentment in this account, but rather a clear and thorough account which helps to understand the issues Fr. Placide wrestled with for so many years, and why he eventually entered the Orthodox Church.  His thought is so clearly laid out that there seems little room for speculating on “hidden motives” or “more to the story”.

Again, here are a few relevant excerpts from Fr. Placide’s journey:


Quote
I was thus led to reflect on the religious history of the West, and especially on the profound changes that one sees in almost all areas between the eleventh and thirteenth centuries.  At that time the institutions of the Church were altered (notably the understanding of the papacy with the Gregorian reform), and so were the rites of the sacraments (the abandonment of baptism by immersion, of communion under both kinds, of the deprecative formula of absolution, etc.), and doctrine (the introduction of the filioque in the Creed and the development of the scholastic method of theology).  One may note simultaneously the appearance of a new religious art, naturalistic, which breaks with the traditional canons of Christian art as elaborated over the course of the era of the Fathers.

This fact, moreover, is recognized by Catholic historians.  As Father Yves Congar has written: “The great shift is located at the hinge of the eleventh and twelfth centuries.  But the shift takes place only in the West.  Between the ends of the eleventh and thirteenth centuries everything changes.  This did not affect the East where, in so many ways, Christian practices remain today as they were – and as they were with us – before the end of the eleventh century.  The more one understands these things, the more this observation is confirmed; and it is a very serious matter since it points us back precisely to the moment when the schism became a fact which, up to now, has found no real cure.  It is impossible that this coincidence should be purely accidental and external.”  Still more recently, another historian has confirmed these views: “It is certainly not accidental that the break between Rome and Constantinople became definitive in 1054, at the very moment when, under the influence of the reform movement, the papacy and the Western Church had chosen to travel religious paths that were altogether new.”

For Father Congar, certainly, this mutation does not bear on the essentials of the faith.  Nevertheless, it is a fact that both sides felt the divergences that had thus appeared between the two Churches necessarily entailed a break in communion.  Thus there was schism, and even heresy, since dogmatic principles were affirmed on the one side and denied on the other.  And history, so it seemed to me, made it quite clear that the initiative for the rupture had come from the Church of the West.

In order to justify her internal evolution the Roman Church appeals to the doctrine of the development of dogma, and to the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff.  Seen this way, the various changes appear as stages in a legitimate process of growth, and the definition of new dogmas as a transition from the implicit to the explicit.  The new forms are contained in the old as the oak tree is in the acorn.  The sole definitive criterion permitting one to discern with certainty a legitimate development from a distortion or corruption of the Tradition is communion with the Roman Pontiff, and the guarantee of his doctrinal infallibility.  The essential identity between the two successive stages of development can thus be affirmed, even if it should escape the observer, provided it be admitted by the pope.

It was thus that solely the doctrine of papal primacy and infallibility could reassure me of the identity of the present-day Roman Church with the Early Church, in spite of the historical facts pointing to the contrary and what my own inner sense suggested to me concerning matters of the faith.

But on this point again, familiarity with the Fathers of the Church and the study of history exposed me to the fragility of the Roman position.  Admittedly, the popes claimed a primacy of divine right from very early on, though without making a “dogma” of it as would later be the case.  But this demand was never unanimously accepted in the Early Church.  Quite the contrary, one can say that the present dogma of the Roman primacy and infallibility is opposed to the spirit and general practice of the Church during the first ten centuries.  The same is true of other doctrinal differences, particularly the filioque, which appeared very early in the Latin Church, but which was never received by the rest of the Christian world as part of the deposit of faith (this is why its definition as dogma can only be considered by the Orthodox Church as an error in matters of faith).

I observed that the analysis of Catholic historians agreed, in great part, with that of Orthodox theologians, even if they did not draw identical conclusions form the facts – the former’s main concern being often to discern in the distant past some faint indications of subsequent developments.  Even so Mgr. Batiffol, for example, wrote concerning the idea of the Pope as successor of Saint Peter: “Saint Basil does not mention it, neither does Saint Gregory Nazianzus or Saint John Chrysostom.  The authority of the bishop of Rom is one of the first importance, but in the East it was never seen as an authority by divine right.”

Concerning the infallibility of the Pope, Father F. W. De varies, speaking of the formula, “Peter has spoken through Agathon!” which was used by the Fathers of the VIth Ecumenical Council, acknowledges that: “This formula is nothing other than a solemn affirmation, made after a thorough examination of Agathon’s letter, that Agathon (the pope at the time) was in accordance with the witness of Saint Peter.  This exclamation in no way means that Agathon must be right since he possesses the authority of Peter…Another indication of the non-recognition by the Council of the absolute authority of the Pope in matters of doctrine is the very fact that Honorius – rightly or wrongly, it makes no difference – was condemned by the Council as a heretic, and that Pope Leo II made no objection to the fact that a Council had done so.  The phrase of the Codex juris canonici:  ‘Prima sedes a nemine judicatur (‘The first See is judged by no one)’ was not therefore at that time recognized in an absolute sense even in Rome.  In any case, a similar condemnation of a Pope would be unthinkable today.  One must thus admit that there has been an evolution.”

Quote
It was only very gradually that I came to the conclusion that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ in her fullness, and that the Roman Catholic Church is a member separated from her.  Such a trek would doubtless have been easier for younger men, or for men less integrated that I was into the Roman Church.  For a Catholic of my generation, the idea of papal primacy was deeply rooted.  Besides, in my earliest years as the Trappist monastery I had known the Latin tradition in one of its purest forms, well-preserved until very recently.  I had also known monks, nuns, and fervent Christians who had shone with a deep spiritual life.  I was familiar with the lives of many Catholic saints; to me their sanctity seemed to be beyond doubt, and close to that of Orthodox saints.  I was aware of and loved everything there was of authentic Christianity – which now I would tend to call genuine Orthodox survivals – among Roman Catholics…

But how could we remain loyal members of the Catholic Church, and so continue to profess outwardly all her dogmas, when inwardly we were convinced that certain of these dogmas had departed from the Tradition of the Church?  How could we continue to share in the same Eucharist while aware of our differences regarding the Faith?  How could we remain outside the Orthodox Church, outside of which there could be no salvation and life in the Spirit for those who, having recognized her as the Church of Christ, refused to join her for human motives?  To give in to considerations of ecumenical diplomacy, opportunity, and personal convenience would, in our case, have been to seek to please men rather than God, and to lie both to men and to God.  Nothing could have justified such duplicity.






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« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2011, 02:40:33 PM »



But how could we remain loyal members of the Catholic Church, and so continue to profess outwardly all her dogmas, when inwardly we were convinced that certain of these dogmas had departed from the Tradition of the Church?  How could we continue to share in the same Eucharist while aware of our differences regarding the Faith?  How could we remain outside the Orthodox Church, outside of which there could be no salvation and life in the Spirit for those who, having recognized her as the Church of Christ, refused to join her for human motives?  To give in to considerations of ecumenical diplomacy, opportunity, and personal convenience would, in our case, have been to seek to please men rather than God, and to lie both to men and to God.  Nothing could have justified such duplicity.

This is a very personal story and one that, if systemically accurate, would have resulted in many many more such stories as men and women monastics had opportunity to experience documents not available to the average layman or woman.









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« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2011, 02:45:25 PM »



But how could we remain loyal members of the Catholic Church, and so continue to profess outwardly all her dogmas, when inwardly we were convinced that certain of these dogmas had departed from the Tradition of the Church?  How could we continue to share in the same Eucharist while aware of our differences regarding the Faith?  How could we remain outside the Orthodox Church, outside of which there could be no salvation and life in the Spirit for those who, having recognized her as the Church of Christ, refused to join her for human motives?  To give in to considerations of ecumenical diplomacy, opportunity, and personal convenience would, in our case, have been to seek to please men rather than God, and to lie both to men and to God.  Nothing could have justified such duplicity.

This is a very personal story and one that, if systemically accurate, would have resulted in many many more such stories as men and women monastics had opportunity to experience documents not available to the average layman or woman.
Ah, that secret gnostic experience open only to the elite.

"experience" a document?
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« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2011, 03:06:16 PM »



But how could we remain loyal members of the Catholic Church, and so continue to profess outwardly all her dogmas, when inwardly we were convinced that certain of these dogmas had departed from the Tradition of the Church?  How could we continue to share in the same Eucharist while aware of our differences regarding the Faith?  How could we remain outside the Orthodox Church, outside of which there could be no salvation and life in the Spirit for those who, having recognized her as the Church of Christ, refused to join her for human motives?  To give in to considerations of ecumenical diplomacy, opportunity, and personal convenience would, in our case, have been to seek to please men rather than God, and to lie both to men and to God.  Nothing could have justified such duplicity.

This is a very personal story and one that, if systemically accurate, would have resulted in many many more such stories as men and women monastics had opportunity to experience documents not available to the average layman or woman.
Ah, that secret gnostic experience open only to the elite.

"experience" a document?

He does seem to have had one doesn't he....

I would not criticize anyone's editing or use of English if I were you...I don't think that is a can of worms you really want to open with me  Tongue
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« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2011, 03:06:53 PM »

I am not a monastic, nor have I had access to any special documents not available to the layperson (you too can buy a Bible, an Agpeya, and a copy of the sayings of the Desert Fathers; heck you can buy them all at the same place, since you are on the internet. It has never been more possible.). Yet that story, while acted out in many different people according to their level of spiritual development, strikes me as the least personal, or most communal, and dare I say it (if anything in the experience of God can be put in this way) average story imaginable. Why? Because it's my story, too. And it's the story of many ex-Catholic (and ex-Muslim, ex-Atheist, ex-___) friends. And it's the story surely of many who are now priests in the Orthodox Church. It's the story of still many more who are hundreds upon hundreds of miles away from any Byzantine history or Orthodox ecclesiastical structure, but live out their faith in an immigrant church that came to them in much the same way as the faith had come to King Ezana of Axum, or Coptic Egypt by the work of St. Mark, or Armenia by the work of St. Gregory the Illuminator. You think the people in these places had tons of documents available to them to peruse and then make some sort of intellectual decision? And the people of Mt. Lebanon, likewise? And the Indians? And the Slavs? And the Romanians? I think that is a ridiculous reduction of the living history of the Church and its real witness, wherein faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Please do not depreciate the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God and the guidance of the churches. When others are led to Rome instead points East, do you likewise take such a hands-off approach, insisting that one individual's story is numerically insignificant, and hence explainable by some other, peculiar means? I would think not. Or at least I hope not.

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« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2011, 03:10:39 PM »


Please do not depreciate the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God and the guidance of the churches. When others are led to Rome instead points East, do you likewise take such a hands-off approach, insisting that one individual's story is numerically insignificant, and hence explainable by some other, peculiar means? I would think not. Or at least I hope not.



 Cheesy  Oh!! I don't ever do that.  In fact I am also pretty sure that is how we find ex-Orthodox in the Catholic Church... Cheesy

I am just teasing but it is true.  Those doors swing both ways.  What is most important is what our respective confessions actually teach and how we understand one another formally...or not...as the case may be.

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« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2011, 03:14:42 PM »

I personally don't believe that Roman Catholics believe in the Filioque as a doctrine, and that (most) Catholics do affirm pretty much the same thing about it that we do as Orthodox, in that instance, it is semantics. HOWEVER, the simple fact that the Filioque is in the Creed in the Roman Church is still an error and reunion cannot ever take place until it is removed.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and through the Son. From what I've read, the Roman Church was affirming the same thing, but the language differences caused a huge misunderstanding. However, the addition of Filioque alone is wrong and warranted excommunication. I do also believe that the Filioque has led to a minimalization of the Holy Spirit in much of Western Theology. Even if it's just semantics, it still had a wider effect on Western Theology.

Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.
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« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2011, 03:20:35 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
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« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2011, 03:30:01 PM »

Your emphasis on solely worshipping God is pagan at best. Your Christianity, Devin, is a state religion, where the police are used to bring the bedbound to church, so as to fulfill the legal obligation. Your Christianity is not  the Christian martyrs, who did not want Christianity to become the religion of the Antichrist, the Roman civic religion.
Christianity is love. Christianity is not the power of the state used to punish heretics. Christianity is love.

LOL. Nice trolling.
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« Reply #124 on: April 20, 2011, 03:31:37 PM »


The problem is, the Filioque isn't just semantics.

The real problem for me and many others is that, for most all of the contested doctrine, what Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches, I've only ever heard it from Orthodox believers.  My Church does not teach what you all say it teaches.

That is a major reason that I can not "convert" to Orthodoxy.  I can't teach Catholic doctrine Orthodox style.  It makes no sense to me at all. 

We have shown you again and again that you don't realize (conveniently, as you would have to realize that your church is heretical if you did) what your church actually teaches on the matter.
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« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.

Then there can never be any reunion. It was added to the Creed without any Ecumenical Council, and an Ecumenical Council IS needed to add ANYTHING to the Creed. It's unilateral addition by the Roman Church to the Creed was an act that denied the validity/importance of the Ecumenical Councils and was indeed a symptom of the larger problem of the fact that the Roman Church had begun to think they had an authority over the other Churches. (which they didn't in fact have, and we told it so, and so the Roman Church took it's ball to play elsewhere)

Again, I mourn the separation of the Roman Church from the One Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church, but I would much rather prefer that schism remain than for us to sacrifice the traditions and faith handed down to us from Christ himself.
If it is the case that the Roman Church refuses to recant, then I mourn it's choice to remain in schism. It is the one that is making the choice, not us. All it takes is some repentance and rejection of it's innovations. I mourn for the fact that the Roman Church remains in it's sins & errors. Hopefully some day it will return to Holy Orthodoxy, on that day, we will rejoice. But until then, the Orthodox Church will continue preserving the faith of Christ & his Apostles...
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« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2011, 03:33:16 PM »



But how could we remain loyal members of the Catholic Church, and so continue to profess outwardly all her dogmas, when inwardly we were convinced that certain of these dogmas had departed from the Tradition of the Church?  How could we continue to share in the same Eucharist while aware of our differences regarding the Faith?  How could we remain outside the Orthodox Church, outside of which there could be no salvation and life in the Spirit for those who, having recognized her as the Church of Christ, refused to join her for human motives?  To give in to considerations of ecumenical diplomacy, opportunity, and personal convenience would, in our case, have been to seek to please men rather than God, and to lie both to men and to God.  Nothing could have justified such duplicity.

This is a very personal story and one that, if systemically accurate, would have resulted in many many more such stories as men and women monastics had opportunity to experience documents not available to the average layman or woman.
Ah, that secret gnostic experience open only to the elite.

"experience" a document?

He does seem to have had one doesn't he....
Don't have a decoder ring for that sentence.

I would not criticize anyone's editing or use of English if I were you...I don't think that is a can of worms you really want to open with me  Tongue
I tremble.

You use "experience" and its permutations in a myriad of odd and contorted ways, so I don't think it is an issue of English usage. It seems to be a term of art for you.
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« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2011, 03:34:12 PM »

So, what does your church teach?

No Filioque?  No papal infallibility?  No Immaculate Conception? No indulgences, purgatory, etc?

....because that would be interesting.

You stated that it is "what the Orthodox say the Catholic Church teaches".  Does the Catholic Church not teach these things?


Meaning.  The meaning of the teaching is not the same when delivered to me by my Church and when delivered to me by Orthodoxy.  You don't tell me accurately what my Church means.

That's why we continue to dialogue...or so it seems to me.

To me, Palamas, St. Gregory is a good example of what I am talking about only in the other direction.

I still argue with Catholics who think that St. Gregory is a heretic because he entirely separates the essence of God from the energies of God in his teaching.  Thankfully I have the homilies in English now to work with as well as the Triads, because the Homilies clarify certain things that are not precisely clear in the Triads.

I COULD simply go along with my fellow Catholics and think of St. Gregory as a good monk but a lousy theologian who taught heresy.  

I decided to look more closely.

Apparently the favor is very rarely returned.

Actually, we do. You assume that directly studying your doctors will logically lead to their acquittal of heresy, but that's not necessarily the case.
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« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2011, 03:37:36 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
of course not: it is a heretical creed for a heretical church.  Thus is it fine as it is: it lets the Orthodox know who the heretics are, and avoid them accordingly. Hence why we fault its ommission by those in union with the heretics who teach it.

Truth in advertising.
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« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2011, 03:41:49 PM »


Please do not depreciate the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God and the guidance of the churches. When others are led to Rome instead points East, do you likewise take such a hands-off approach, insisting that one individual's story is numerically insignificant, and hence explainable by some other, peculiar means? I would think not. Or at least I hope not.



 Cheesy  Oh!! I don't ever do that.  In fact I am also pretty sure that is how we find ex-Orthodox in the Catholic Church... Cheesy

I am just teasing but it is true.  Those doors swing both ways.  What is most important is what our respective confessions actually teach and how we understand one another formally...or not...as the case may be.



What do you mean by understanding one another "formally"? As opposed to what, exactly? I take it you mean the kinds of discussions that go on here to be the "informal" ones, but I don't understand why they are not as important or illuminating.
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« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2011, 03:42:40 PM »

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and through the Son. From what I've read, the Roman Church was affirming the same thing, but the language differences caused a huge misunderstanding.

Are you taking into account the definitions of the 13th-16th centuries? These definitely do not sound to me like they are saying the same thing regarding Trinitarian theology.
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« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2011, 03:46:31 PM »

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and through the Son. From what I've read, the Roman Church was affirming the same thing, but the language differences caused a huge misunderstanding.

Are you taking into account the definitions of the 13th-16th centuries? These definitely do not sound to me like they are saying the same thing regarding Trinitarian theology.

nah I haven't read them, I'm mainly going off what I read in Sir Steven Runciman's book, "The Great Church in Captivity". As well as conversations I've had with Roman Catholics.
It could be a case that in recent centuries they have changed their beliefs.
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« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2011, 03:47:08 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
of course not: it is a heretical creed for a heretical church.  Thus is it fine as it is: it lets the Orthodox know who the heretics are, and avoid them accordingly. Hence why we fault its ommission by those in union with the heretics who teach it.

Truth in advertising.

When I tired of the Latins and tried to be a happy Catholic with the Ukrainians, I was shocked and honestly upset to find that I was the only one in the congregation who did NOT recite the filioque in the Creed. I had naturally assumed that it would not be there. When I asked the priest after the conclusion of the liturgy, he was ashamed and admitted that they had a long way to go to properly return to their spiritual tradition. ECism was not the "other lung" I had been told it would be...unless we conceptualize the church as a very sick man.
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« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »


Please do not depreciate the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God and the guidance of the churches. When others are led to Rome instead points East, do you likewise take such a hands-off approach, insisting that one individual's story is numerically insignificant, and hence explainable by some other, peculiar means? I would think not. Or at least I hope not.



 Cheesy  Oh!! I don't ever do that.  In fact I am also pretty sure that is how we find ex-Orthodox in the Catholic Church... Cheesy

I am just teasing but it is true.  Those doors swing both ways.  What is most important is what our respective confessions actually teach and how we understand one another formally...or not...as the case may be.



What do you mean by understanding one another "formally"? As opposed to what, exactly? I take it you mean the kinds of discussions that go on here to be the "informal" ones, but I don't understand why they are not as important or illuminating.

The teaching authority in the Church rests with our bishops...When you hear me referring to "formal" and "informal" teaching with respect to Orthodoxy or the Catholic Church that is my reference.  Sorry for not making that more clear earlier!

M.
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« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2011, 04:01:49 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
of course not: it is a heretical creed for a heretical church.  Thus is it fine as it is: it lets the Orthodox know who the heretics are, and avoid them accordingly. Hence why we fault its ommission by those in union with the heretics who teach it.

Truth in advertising.

Ah. I had wondered why that was.

So, to make sure I understand you correctly, you would also fault Pope Leo III in the same way, right? (Since he said the creed in its original form, and also affirmed the correctness of the statement "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".)
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« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2011, 04:04:22 PM »

Regarding the “returning of favors”, if Roman Catholics admire and highly respect something in Orthodoxy, and if Orthodox do not see anything worthwhile in post-schism Roman Catholicism, this should not be thought of in terms of a lack of charity on the part of the Orthodox.  It could very well be a matter of conviction that follows from careful examination, a sincere conviction that Orthodoxy is the true Church in all its fullness and glory.  What can be added to or taken away from “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15) or the “fullness of him that filleth all in all” (Eph 1:23)?


I hear what you're saying, jah777, but I just want to point out, with regard to "if Roman Catholics admire and highly respect something in Orthodoxy" ... well, some do and some don't. (Nowadays, the former are more numerous. Before Vatican II, the latter were more numerous.)
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« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2011, 04:05:40 PM »

you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium.

That's easy for you to say.
yes, and I intened to keep it that way.

Why ialmisry, if I didn't know better I'd think you like that "flippant attitude". Wink
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« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2011, 04:06:44 PM »


How is it that you would be happy to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodoxy Church?  Why?  If you think you would like to, and you believe the two faiths to be that similar....why not become Orthodox? 

See dzheremi's post:

As someone who has been under Rome and just recently got out from under that, erm...union, I can say with no anti-Roman sentiment that I did not leave one communion just to join another that is "basically" the same as it is.
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« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2011, 04:34:39 PM »



Now, if we understand that the doctrine is semantics, then the Roman Church should have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, but that he proceeds through the Son. And if it is semantics, then the Roman Church should also have no problem removing Filioque from the Creed, considering it was an error in the first place.

The filioque is fine as it is.  There's no need to remove it and no need for Orthodoxy to continue to insist after all these centuries IF it is not really heresy...and in terms of what the Church understands it to mean, it is not.
of course not: it is a heretical creed for a heretical church.  Thus is it fine as it is: it lets the Orthodox know who the heretics are, and avoid them accordingly. Hence why we fault its ommission by those in union with the heretics who teach it.

Truth in advertising.

Ah. I had wondered why that was.

So, to make sure I understand you correctly, you would also fault Pope Leo III in the same way, right? (Since he said the creed in its original form, and also affirmed the correctness of the statement "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".)

No, because he was before the Schism and most likely was simply affirming what Maximus the Confessor was talking about.
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« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2011, 04:46:55 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.
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« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2011, 04:52:10 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so thatone day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

This has to be added to the "irony" thread. Semantics is kinda important. Syntax might not be so much.
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« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2011, 04:59:12 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
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« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?

I mean that people who tend to frequent forums about a particular subject tend to be much more well educated in a formal sense about the subject the board is about than others who do not.

Not only are participants on boards more educated in the subject the board is about, they also tend to have much more zealous or rigidly held beliefs or stances on the subject the board is about than most others who don't hang out in such areas.

IME.

I doubt the women who work in the cafeteria here at work who are all RCs and spend most of their time working, doing charity, and raising families have thought a lot about the filioque or would even care that EOs don't include it. They are salt of the earth. Humble and hard working. One of the women noticed my eating habits over the course of the year and asked if I was Jewish. I told her I was an inquirer in EO. Her reaction: That's great! I don't know a lot about them, but I know they have more rules about eating and are more strict on some things.

She is praying that I am received into the Church. I doubt she gives a fig about the filioque.

Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.

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« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2011, 05:26:40 PM »



Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.



Hey!  I remember when the Jesuits were Catholic...'course I am old....but still... Smiley

thanks for the skinny on orthonerds
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« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2011, 05:32:51 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?

I mean that people who tend to frequent forums about a particular subject tend to be much more well educated in a formal sense about the subject the board is about than others who do not.

Not only are participants on boards more educated in the subject the board is about, they also tend to have much more zealous or rigidly held beliefs or stances on the subject the board is about than most others who don't hang out in such areas.

IME.

I doubt the women who work in the cafeteria here at work who are all RCs and spend most of their time working, doing charity, and raising families have thought a lot about the filioque or would even care that EOs don't include it. They are salt of the earth. Humble and hard working. One of the women noticed my eating habits over the course of the year and asked if I was Jewish. I told her I was an inquirer in EO. Her reaction: That's great! I don't know a lot about them, but I know they have more rules about eating and are more strict on some things.

She is praying that I am received into the Church. I doubt she gives a fig about the filioque.

Now the Jesuits I stayed with, I am sure would have some strong opinions.



This is true. But it doesn't quite accomplish the goal it seems you are aiming for; it's still clear that both you and Robb are exaggerating how uncommon it is for the filioque to be an important factor in one's consideration of converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2011, 05:41:26 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics (and not not doctrine)

Well, there is nothing we can do about "invincible ignorance".

and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

I do too. That doesn't require me to have such a low view of the nature of the Schism.
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« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2011, 05:41:41 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox
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« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2011, 05:45:46 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox

There is a ribald joke that would be perfect here . . .
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« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2011, 06:00:03 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate

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« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2011, 06:00:43 PM »

And this is a poor pool to select data from as the people here are orthonerds.

What is an orthonerd?  I do notice that several identified their assertion that the Catholic Church is all about apparitions as having come from a college or university campus environment...I did note that.  But is that what orthonerds are?  Student converts?
orthonerds = Geek Orthodox

There is a ribald joke that would be perfect here . . .

heh....

Let's see if I have this right.  Here are two of my favorite bloggers.  I consider them both to be orthonerds:

http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/

http://bekkos.wordpress.com/

Would that be accurate?
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« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2011, 06:07:44 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



You could be pleased to send it to me if you like...but I don't know about cost.  I have someone who can translate it for me if it is not too long.  Otherwise I can muddle through it.

Also I am aware of the reactions of some Catholics, clergy and laity, toward those who translate to Orthodoxy.  It is not something that pleases me in any way.  It has been a long time since I spent any time on Father Placide.  So I will go back and do so over the next week or two.  Each time I go back to the texts of his on-line, I find that I react the same way to them.

As I said I do not get the same feeling with Father Gabriel and don't anticipate that I ever will.

M.
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« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »

and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

I do too. That doesn't require me to have such a low view of the nature of the Schism.

Me too.
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« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2011, 06:41:14 PM »

Say what one will, but I still believe that much of the schism was caused by politics and semantics and I still hope and pray that we can hammer out our differences so that one day, God willing we can all be one Church again.

 Smiley

Hear, hear.
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« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2011, 07:10:17 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



You could be pleased to send it to me if you like...but I don't know about cost.  I have someone who can translate it for me if it is not too long.  Otherwise I can muddle through it.

Also I am aware of the reactions of some Catholics, clergy and laity, toward those who translate to Orthodoxy.  It is not something that pleases me in any way.  It has been a long time since I spent any time on Father Placide.  So I will go back and do so over the next week or two.  Each time I go back to the texts of his on-line, I find that I react the same way to them.

As I said I do not get the same feeling with Father Gabriel and don't anticipate that I ever will.

M.

MY ERROR: I have erred here.  Father Placide is not the monk that I was thinking of when I made my comments.  Thank you Father Ambrose for having me stop and think again.

I started a thread on Father Placide whose story I have read and appreciated, so my other comments here, are not accurate and reflect my reaction to a different person entirely!!
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« Reply #154 on: April 20, 2011, 07:21:48 PM »


I have no idea in reality.  I have a better idea with Father Bunge.  I cannot fathom Father Placide at all, but there is more there than meets the eye, I am sure.  You'll never see the kind of screed against the Catholic Church come from Father Bunge that you see from Father Placide and his followers.

It would be nice if you referenced the negative comments you make about Fr Placide so that we may judge for ourselves if your accusations against him are true.

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

By the way, any negativity by Fr Placide and the six monks who left Catholicism with him is not entirely without cause.   The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris issued a sharp denunciation of him and his monastic brothers and forbade any Catholics to visit any of their French monasteries.  Not all your hierocrats share your irenic position of "let people make their home wherever is best for their spiritual life."


Here is the delightful little place built by Fr Placide in the Rhone valley and dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great.

Monastery of Saint Anthony the Great
France, Ecumenical Patriarchate



This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC?  It seems incredible considering how ecumenical and liberal the French Catholic Church has been reported to be since the 1960's.  I couldn't imagine a French bishop condemning anyone (Except a Traditionalist Catholic, and they have had a long standing feud with each other).
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« Reply #155 on: April 20, 2011, 09:24:12 PM »

This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC? 

Good question.
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« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2011, 09:48:23 PM »


This happened before or after Vatican Council II in the RCC? 


After Vatican II.  Fr Placide and the other Cistercian monks began visiting Athos in 1971 and in June 1977 they were baptized on Athos at the monastery of Simonopetra.  Those who had been priests were then ordained by a bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2011, 10:37:38 PM »

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

Father, I think it is available in English under the title “Stages of a Pilgrimage” published in the book “The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain: Contemporary Voices from Mount Athos” by Hieromonk Alexander (Golotzin).  Do you know whether or not this is the same account?  I quoted from this work in the following message:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35350.msg558539.html#msg558539

I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.
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« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2011, 10:48:52 PM »

Fr Placide penned an 'Apologia' for his journey into Orthodoxy which would help you understand why he took this path.  However it is only in French and is not generally available.  I could make you a photocopy I suppose.

Father, I think it is available in English under the title “Stages of a Pilgrimage” published in the book “The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain: Contemporary Voices from Mount Athos” by Hieromonk Alexander (Golotzin).  Do you know whether or not this is the same account?  I quoted from this work in the following message:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35350.msg558539.html#msg558539

I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.

It is the translation of the French account that is on the Internet. 
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« Reply #159 on: April 21, 2011, 02:36:54 AM »


I have this full account in English and could send it if there is interest.

I would really appreciate it.  My e-mail is ambrois @xtra.co.nz

I think my old copy may be a preliminary draft of his conversion story and I have it only in French.
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« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2011, 06:44:34 AM »

No problem. I've been on varsity internets since '88. Having that experience, I know people can be pretty much offended by anything.

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

(Okay, I admit, that was sarcasm; but I couldn't see a better way to get the point across.)
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« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2011, 08:43:27 AM »

See....that makes no sense to me, whatsoever.

Why label yourself Anglican, Lutheran, etc.....and go to a Catholic Church to receive Communion?

Why not go to an Anglican, if you are Anglican;  Lutheran if you are Lutheran, etc?

If you find something within your own denomination, that keeps you there....why go elsewhere?  Why the NEED to go elsewhere?  Why wouldn't they be happy with their own?

Personally, I have no need, nor want, to go anywhere outside of an Orthodox Church....even if someone said it were okay.  Why, if I believe all the tenets of my own Church and hold them dear, would I go elsewhere?

LizaSymonenko,

You ask a good question. I've written a bit of a response, but this thread (or this forum for that matter) doesn't seem the best place for it, so I've started a new thread on the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35462.new.html
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« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2011, 04:50:48 PM »

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

 laugh
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« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2011, 11:24:54 PM »

No problem. I've been on varsity internets since '88. Having that experience, I know people can be pretty much offended by anything.

It's all becoming clear to me now: when it's a post of mine you have no problem applying the label "hostility", but when it's a post of yours we all have to remember to have "thick skins" for the internet and "people can be pretty much offended by anything."

Thank you for this education.

(Okay, I admit, that was sarcasm; but I couldn't see a better way to get the point across.)

Your rhetorical skills are poor. The above is not sarcasm. You should really pick up a primer on rhetorical tropes, if you are going to try to point them out.

And mixing threads is poor forum form.

And if you can't see the difference between you decrying elliptical "hostility" (which I did not use) and pointed and directed abusive language toward a particular person (which you did engage in), then I can't help you any further.

Have a joyous Pascha!
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« Reply #164 on: April 23, 2011, 08:49:50 PM »

then I can't help you any further.

But you'll probably keep trying to.
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« Reply #165 on: April 23, 2011, 09:02:44 PM »


And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.
.

Christ is Risen!

Are these two interviews on the Net?  I'd be very grateful if someone gave the links.
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« Reply #166 on: April 24, 2011, 05:42:21 AM »

then I can't help you any further.

But you'll probably keep trying to.

Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #167 on: April 24, 2011, 11:46:41 AM »

Happy Pascha, everyone! I was blessed enough to see a good friend of mine be baptized, confirmed, and receive first Holy Eucharist at the Great Vigil of Easter last night. Thanks be to God!
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« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2011, 11:23:06 AM »

Happy Pascha, everyone! I was blessed enough to see a good friend of mine be baptized, confirmed, and receive first Holy Eucharist at the Great Vigil of Easter last night. Thanks be to God!
Glory to God!
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« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2011, 10:39:48 PM »

You will note that one of the criteria for Latin Catholics for receiving Communion from an Orthodox priest would be:

a. Necessity or genuine spiritual advantage

Some might remember my mentioning that when one asks for a economia for the salvation of their soul, it is rarely refused and most often presumed to be genuine.  I am not going to point fingers directly and name names, per usual,  because it is not prudent to do that here, but I am aware of several cases where Catholics are regular communicants at Orthodox parishes because they requested that economia for the salvation of their soul and it was granted to them by both bishops in question.  No one makes an issue of it and all is peaceful.

So to suggest that there are not times when the schism is breached without any fuss or fanfare, for the good of souls, is not a great stretch of my imagination.


Admittedly this does happen, under the circumstances you outline.  I know an absolutely wonderful Byzantine Catholic who was sexually abused by the Catholic Eparch.  Heavily traumatized she received permission to remain a Byzantine Catholic but to receive communion in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

I am thinking of the woman from the old days on cineast, and if she is the one then I know this one as well.  That was the very first instance that I had ever heard of such a thing.  But there are others...and more than I imagined possible. 

These are some of the things that cause me to realize that the schism truly is made by human hands and can be un-done without any of the particular Churches relinquishing their catholic Traditions.
Which doesn't include Pastor Aeternus.  The schism is truly made by humand hands with Latin fingerprints.

3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM
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« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2011, 10:47:57 PM »


And with Father Gabriel there is no indication that he left the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons at all, and he's done two long interviews where if that were the case he could have made that very plain in all its detail...and he did not.  In fact his silence on the issue of doctrine, thundered.

.

Christ is Risen!

Are these two interviews on the Net?  I'd be very grateful if someone gave the links.


B u m p

Bumping this because these are two interviews I would really like to hear.

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« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:13 AM »

Bumping this because these are two interviews I would really like to hear.

Bless Father,

Christos Voskrese!

I do not know if these are the interviews you are lookikng for.  They are in print...not video. The first one was when he was still with the Catholic Church.  The second one was after his conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

http://www.pravmir.com/article_1220.html
http://www.pravmir.com/article_1221.html

Kissing your right hand,
Mickey


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« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2011, 10:26:34 AM »


Thank you very very much.
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