Author Topic: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion  (Read 10556 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« on: April 17, 2011, 08:02:15 AM »
Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."




Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 08:12:20 AM »
Amazing words from Metropolitan Hilarion, he is truly blessed!
(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)

Offline Michał

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 08:37:23 AM »
(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)

He is on the right track. But hardliners wouldn't be happy with him as the patriarch.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:00:32 AM »
(I still hope and pray that some day he becomes Patriarch)

He is on the right track. But hardliners wouldn't be happy with him as the patriarch.
Are they ever happy? ;)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 12:44:28 PM »
I like this statement, and agree with it very much. A practical example would be a soup kitchen ministry. Instead of both groups setting up separate kitchens to feed the poor, they could collaborate to reach more people with a larger soup kitchen. After all, something like that wouldn't require either side to compromise on doctrine, and would be a benefit to all involved.

Eis polla eti despota!
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 09:38:56 PM »
Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion, and neither of us should compromise

Interesting in view of the fact that some of my fellow Catholics have stated or implied that we are already the same.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline stashko

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »
Prayers and Hope. ....That He's never elected Patriarch....... :police:

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:04:24 PM by stashko »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 11:44:01 PM »
Because of this or something else?
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

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Offline stashko

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 11:55:41 PM »
Even thur prayers and Hope that they don't get elected ,The Bad Ones Always seem to be elected.....Gods plan i guess must go thur,How else will the great falling away come to pass ,but thur the bad ones... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 01:42:44 AM »
Even thur prayers and Hope that they don't get elected ,The Bad Ones Always seem to be elected.....Gods plan i guess must go thur,How else will the great falling away come to pass ,but thur the bad ones... ;D
... really? ugh...

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 12:26:20 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 04:24:14 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Online Shlomlokh

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 11:11:58 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 12:54:29 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Care to substantiate your slander?

Orthodox: We believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the one which confesses the Orthodox Creed of the Catholic Church as the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils left it. Such Orthodox can commune in any Orthodox Church, as I can personally attest on three continents (four, if Europe counts seperate).

Of course, anyone who submits to the Vatican can commune in your churches. But then so could we Orthodox Catholics if we wanted, and the Nestorians, and the Altkatholisch, the Polish National Catholics etc.  And those with clown masses, and a certain cardinal safe from prosecution for covering up pedophilia.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 01:09:39 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"

There are now more Cardinals (199) than member UN nations (192).  No wonder the Vatican doesn't join the UN or the WCC; the 199 individual kingdoms consist of the whole world.   ;)


Offline Alive

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 02:53:06 AM »
Roman corrupted perception:
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

One more evidence of corruption and lie…
I never heard any of orthodox say such creed.
So if you people lie in small, no one trust you in big.



Real fact:
1. Pop all his corrupt structure are not catholic.
2. “catholic” is Greek word Pop not appreciate and apply for speculation.

No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now, because got brainwashed.
Most common known identification:
-   romans
-   latinans

Orthodox – are only catholic church.

Until Pop and romans  identify them self as “catholic” – no dialog in option.






Offline Alive

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 05:36:06 AM »
Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 06:27:38 AM »
Saturday, March 26, 2011

Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion,
and neither of us should compromise


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/03/moscow-to-rome-yes-to-cooperation-no-to.html


From a statement of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokalamsk published in Russia
Today (h/t Ad Orientem):
***
Bishop Hilarion commented on his statement to RG as follows.


"The idea of a strategic alliance with the Catholics- is an old idea of
mine. It came to me when the Catholics were electing the new Pope. Although
I would like to point out that what I am suggesting is, in essence, the
direct opposite of Uniatism, which is a way toward a rapprochement based on
doctrinal compromises. In our point of view, the policy of Uniatism had
suffered complete failure. Not only did it not bring the Orthodox Christians
and Catholics closer together, it actually distanced them. And Uniatism, as
is currently recognized by both Orthodox believers and Catholics, is not the
path toward unity...."





“YES” to WHAT cooperation?
What a PC rubbish….

1.   “Moscow” is not only orthodox in the world.
2.   Vladimir 1000 years ago tell “no for rome” on Slavic land.
3.   People never learn history lesson?  Alexander Nevski was “very cooperative”.

I would not surprise if one day Russian  people kick such hierarchs out for “cooperation” .


So we should just be at war with Roman Catholics at all times?

Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 07:01:41 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

On a positive note, this incident has helped me to finally "make up my mind" about Wyatt. (Well, synLeszka too, but that's a name I just barely recognize.)
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 08:00:33 AM »
Roman corrupted perception:
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"

One more evidence of corruption and lie…
I never heard any of orthodox say such creed.
So if you people lie in small, no one trust you in big.



Real fact:
1. Pop all his corrupt structure are not catholic.
2. “catholic” is Greek word Pop not appreciate and apply for speculation.

No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now, because got brainwashed.
Most common known identification:
-   romans
-   latinans

Orthodox – are only catholic church.

Until Pop and romans  identify them self as “catholic” – no dialog in option.







"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D

Tit for tat is not necessarily a good strategy, but it can be illustrative on occasion.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 10:55:36 AM »
No orthodox people ever call Romans as catholic till now

I have a question for you. What do you call the Polish National Catholic Church?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 10:56:59 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 11:47:02 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 11:50:14 AM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Who cares who you quote!!

I can quote one holy catholic and apostolic Church that says I don't need to believe in any apparitions, and more than that I should not base my faith [[beliefs] in private devotions but in the public work [liturgy] and teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

So who cares what you can do?...not I

 :D :D :D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:52:03 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 11:54:01 AM »
For the sake of historical accuracy, I have to remind all,  particularly Alive,  that St. Vladimir accepted Christianity during the period of the undivided Church, prior to the Great Schism. At the time the Constantinopolitan Bishops who received Vladimir and the peoples of the Rus would have regarded the Church of Rome and the Pope as part of the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:54:35 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew
Of course you don't believe it. You believe you are the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church," yet you aren't catholic and you definitely are not one.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.

The EO are not one. Period. That was my point and why I gave synLeszka an amen. I don't think anyone literally believes that they confess belief in a divided Church. They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do. Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 02:34:24 PM »
Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:34:51 PM by Second Chance »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 02:39:57 PM »
Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.

That's so crazy it just might work.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 02:57:28 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Schultz

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 03:01:05 PM »
Can you all relax, please???!!! Here we are four days from Glorious Pascha and we are quibbling again (and again and again). Why are we paying so much attention to the  Neanderthals amongst us anyway? They are not going to change no matter what.

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Schultz

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. :P  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 03:05:01 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. :P  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 :angel:  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...

Offline Schultz

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 03:08:04 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. :P  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 :angel:  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...

I never liked his ideas even when I was a RC before I (re)discovered Eastern Christianity.  He employs the kind of rhetoric that just beats you into submission.  He has crazy eyes.  I'm sure he's a very nice, devout person, but his public persona turns me off completely.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2011, 03:18:09 PM »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 03:19:43 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

There are no Orthodox bodies who call themselves "Ruthenian".  That's a Roman Catholic term. :P  And all the various Eastern Catholic churches are organized in the same way.

One more reason why Scott Hahn is full of it.

 :angel:  You won't hold it a'gin me then if I agree with you...

I never liked his ideas even when I was a RC before I (re)discovered Eastern Christianity.  He employs the kind of rhetoric that just beats you into submission.  He has crazy eyes.  I'm sure he's a very nice, devout person, but his public persona turns me off completely.

I don't doubt his devotion or his good intentions.  I doubt the usefulness and accuracy of his appointed role as the quintessential Catholic lay spokesperson.  

I've never seen him speak in person [remember I am TV-free] but I was once given several of his tapes to listen to and comment on.  I was not happy with his shading and nuance of several key teachings.  Very protestant with a gloss of Catholic phrasings, and an unwillingness to cut to the chase:  remembering that his talks are mainly directed toward ordinary folk who seem to do best with declarative sentences, I looked for the simple assertions of adult catechesis, and found them missing.

So if you add wild eyes to that...well... ;)...

M.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 03:21:24 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.  The situation with the Orthodox in the US isn't all that different from a century ago when one could find English, Irish, Italian, Polish, and other Roman Catholic parishes within a block of each other in the major cities (and language can't be the excuse, at the time they all celebrated in Latin!).  The main difference is that in the case with the Orthodox the differing jurisdictions each answer to a different Patriarch or Metropolitan, while the Roman Catholic parishes answered ultimately to the Pope.  Still, it wasn't until sixty years ago the ethnic differences in the Roman parishes began to fade.  Given that the major waves of the Orthodox immigration to this country was just starting as the Roman immigration was just finishing we aren't really all that far behind.

As for Roman Catholic ethnicities "coexisting" any better than the Orthodox despite the supposed "unifying influence" of the Pope, Western European history tells a far different story (the Hundred Years War, anyone?).
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 03:34:30 PM »
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but it might: a quote from a published book.

Quote
Upon closer examination, I found the various Orthodox churches to be hopelessly divided among themselves, similar to the Protestants, except that the Orthodox were split along the lines of ethnic nationalisms; there were Orthodox bodies that called themselves Greek, Russian, Ruthenian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian and so on. They have coexisted for centuries, but more like a family of brothers who have lost their father.

- Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism by Scott and Kimberly Hahn

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.  The situation with the Orthodox in the US isn't all that different from a century ago when one could find English, Irish, Italian, Polish, and other Roman Catholic parishes within a block of each other in the major cities (and language can't be the excuse, at the time they all celebrated in Latin!).  The main difference is that in the case with the Orthodox the differing jurisdictions each answer to a different Patriarch or Metropolitan, while the Roman Catholic parishes answered ultimately to the Pope.  Still, it wasn't until sixty years ago the ethnic differences in the Roman parishes began to fade.  Given that the major waves of the Orthodox immigration to this country was just starting as the Roman immigration was just finishing we aren't really all that far behind.

As for Roman Catholic ethnicities "coexisting" any better than the Orthodox despite the supposed "unifying influence" of the Pope, Western European history tells a far different story (the Hundred Years War, anyone?).

I would hope that everyone reading your message here would give your brush-off of the unifying character of a single sacral language another look.

Even as a child of four, I was singing in a children's choir.  We sang all Saturday morning requiem masses.  And by the time I began first grade I was very fluent in "Church" Latin within the context of the liturgy and the hymns.  It is the kind of fluency one gets with prayers that are chanted rather than prayers that are recited.

But that unifying character of the sacral language is not just something you or anyone else can poke under the rug along with every other inconvenient truth.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 03:35:40 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Schultz

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2011, 03:42:08 PM »
I think that's his point, though, Mary.  That even though there was the unifying sacral language, as you put it, people still organized themselves according to their ancenstral ethnicity, even after the second or third generation.  Remember, it was also only until recently that the Orthodox, at least the Slavs, had a unifying sacral language, as well, and even that change is still in flux.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 03:42:26 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2011, 03:47:22 PM »
I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of Roman Catholic history here in the US.

I find statements like the authors above made to be woefully ignorant of just about everything in the history of Christianity in general. Uniform Church a'la modern RC apologetics is an utopia that has never existed anywhere.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2011, 03:57:00 PM »
I think that's his point, though, Mary.  That even though there was the unifying sacral language, as you put it, people still organized themselves according to their ancenstral ethnicity, even after the second or third generation.  Remember, it was also only until recently that the Orthodox, at least the Slavs, had a unifying sacral language, as well, and even that change is still in flux.

I understand.  I do.  Way back in my other life I was an armchair Marxist and tried to believe in Lenin's Internationalism only to find myself morphed into a raving nationalist.  I'd like to think that I've regained some balance in these kinds of discussions...We'll see.

But the very fact that people are kin-tuned and clanish makes the unifying character of language a very essential element in crafting unity in diversity and sometimes wresting order from chaos...but nothing sits still in real life...etc.

This could be a very interesting discussion on its own merits.

M.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2011, 04:25:39 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Who cares who you quote!!

I can quote one holy catholic and apostolic Church that says I don't need to believe in any apparitions, and more than that I should not base my faith [[beliefs] in private devotions but in the public work [liturgy] and teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

So who cares what you can do?...not I

 :D :D :D
you're quite entitled to have such a flippant attitude to your supreme pontiff, bishops and magisterium. That's between you and them. Just don't expect us to submit to those who make such meaningless gestures with such fanfare, or reproach us for wanting nothing to do with them.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Robb

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2011, 04:28:01 PM »
The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are practically the same, although the two tend to view certain theological questions from different perspectives.  Why then can't we just have unity with eachother?  The world needs a united Christian Church now more then ever.  Let us put aside our non essential differences to build up the body of Christ, with each different Church working in their own spheres.

We could use the model of unity drawn up by the Council of Florence as our guide.  With that the East lost nothing of her theology or liturgy and the west lost nothing of her own ideas.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moscow to Rome: Yes to cooperation, no to communion
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2011, 04:34:07 PM »
Orthodox: "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"
Catholic: "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church"


Really?  ??? You've been here long enough to know we don't believe that!  :P

In Christ,
Andrew

 :D  I would liken their comments here to your comments on how it is so necessary for all Catholics to believe in private apparitions....It is about as accurate and as fair-minded, and caring...   :D
Really? You can quote (not put words in their mouth, but quote) an Orthodox who says "We believe in many,divided and divisible, independent churches"? Because we can provide plenty of quotes from your correligionists claiming one must believe in Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe etc.

I'm just glad to see that elijahmaria didn't second (or should I say "third" since Wyatt had already seconded) synLeszka's post.

The EO are not one. Period. That was my point and why I gave synLeszka an amen. I don't think anyone literally believes that they confess belief in a divided Church.
We do all the time, with the unaltered words of Ecumenical Councils "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Churc."

They consider themselves to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" just as we do.
So you confess that you are one with the clown masses, lord of the dance expositions, etc.

Whose side are you on anyway? You claim to be Roman Catholic. Are you? If so, it would be nice if you would started having the stones to defend our Church instead of kissing up to those who we consider to be schismatics. So if you think you have "made up your mind" about me now and hate me for sticking up for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that's fine with me. Jesus warned us that we would be hated because of Him. I am just surprised to see the hatred coming from within our Church.
So much for oneness.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth