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the_typist
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« on: April 17, 2011, 02:38:42 AM »

By what authority do Protestant churches teach the Bible?

I am talking more specifically about Charismatics/Pentacostals but you can include anyone outside of the Orthodox Church.

Thanks.

M

Btw, I come from a Foursquare church and I am sure they are all somewhat different but my old church and some I have seen in California, are very similar.
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 08:22:33 AM »

Their own authority...

IE: None.

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »

Hi M, we used to be members at a Foursquare church and I would agree with the reply above -- anyone can teach the Bible on their own authority in the charismatic church.  Everyone has the Holy Spirit, in that understanding, and anyone can hear/interpret the Bible.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 07:00:41 PM »

For some reason, although there are 30482385^8482 interpretations of the Bible, your pastor will insist that HIS is right. There is no authority outside of them for the most part.

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 07:21:08 PM »

By what authority do Protestant churches teach the Bible?

Other than the faculty of reason and the chances that they may or may not be properly utilizing it, they really have no God-given authority to interpret the Bible like the Church does.
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 07:23:56 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some level of hierarchy within the Episcopalian, Methodist, and Presbyterian traditions? Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 07:24:25 PM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 07:25:28 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some level of hierarchy within the Episcopalian, Methodist, and Presbyterian traditions? Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.

Both statements are true.

What are you trying to get at by them?
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 07:26:01 PM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 07:27:12 PM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

 Roll Eyes

y u mad tho?
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 07:29:18 PM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

 Roll Eyes

y u mad tho?

You're expressing an opinion, clearly antagonistic to the Orthodox teaching, as if fact, on an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 07:32:18 PM »

You're expressing an opinion, clearly antagonistic to the Orthodox teaching, as if fact, on an Orthodox forum.

I don't consider it antagonistic, nor do I think that what I said is indisputable fact. That's just what I believe--regardless of my ecclesiastical affiliation.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 07:52:48 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some level of hierarchy within the Episcopalian, Methodist, and Presbyterian traditions? Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.
Yes, but by the time it filters down to the local congregation, just about anything can happen. It's not likely much will be done by the upper levels unless someone starts to complain. Non-liturgical churches don't usually publish lectionaries (let alone anything more) to be used by their pastors. They can pretty well do whatever they like. It's hard on the good people who really care.
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 11:39:26 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some level of hierarchy within the Episcopalian, Methodist, and Presbyterian traditions? Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.

Presbyterians, as far as I'm aware, are the only protestants to develop a Conciliar form of government.

While Anglicans do ultimately claim apostolic authority, Methodists do not, though the American branch uses some of the same terminology and have a hierarchy, Wesley explicitly taught that all had authority to teach scripture, Wesley himself (a priest who didn't believe that Bishops were anything special) appointed overseers for the American colonies, who on their own appropriated the title "bishop" (in spite of the opposition of Wesley).
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 12:44:33 AM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

 Roll Eyes

y u mad tho?

You're expressing an opinion, clearly antagonistic to the Orthodox teaching, as if fact, on an Orthodox forum.
As if you don't do the same thing? Undecided
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 01:28:47 AM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

I actually agree with you to a degree. Every worldview ultimately has a subjective foundation, because it begins with the subject that believes whatever he believes. However, the subject can recognize objectivity outside of himself, and can choose to defer to that objectivity. For Protestants, they recognize the Bible as a divinely objective source that conveys divinely objective Truth. However, they fail to recognize that subjective interpretations of objective truth render their worldview no more objective than atheism, nihilism, or existentialism. The objective Truths of Scripture require an objective interpreter, i.e. the Church. And yes, it is still a subjective decision to trust in the Church. But God is experienced and known through the synthesis of the subjective and the objective.


Selam
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 02:14:32 AM »

What are some ways to convince Protestants to follow the Orthodox Church?

I suppose I should ask what are some ways to convince anyone who is non-Orthodox if they are too ignorant to read such books about the faith? As I keep hearing from my Protestant friends..."I don't have time to read" or "I am too busy" etc. What can I do then, pray?

Thanks!

M

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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 02:53:31 AM »

I mean, none of us, Orthodox, Catholic Protestant, can claim to have the authority the Mormons have.

A career con-man in Central NY looked at some pebbles in his hat and it led him to golden tablets, delivered unto him by the angel Moroni written about American Indians, who were actually Israelites. Obvs.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2011, 03:01:22 AM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some level of hierarchy within the Episcopalian, Methodist, and Presbyterian traditions? Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.

Both statements are true.

What are you trying to get at by them?

The OP asked by what authority Protestants teach the Bible. I was trying to establish the authority within these Protestant traditions, as I knew that they were held together by a little more than just name alone.

Is that okay with you?
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2011, 03:06:17 AM »

What are some ways to convince Protestants to follow the Orthodox Church?
I think one of the things we need to do is start from a premise even Protestants accept. How can we start from the foundation of our belief in the authority of the Church and the Fathers without first convincing Protestants to accept that authority? I don't know that such an approach would work in most situations. I therefore recommend starting from the Scriptures, which even Protestants accept as authoritative, and showing them how their beliefs are inconsistent with and sometimes even contradict the Scriptures. You'll probably get a bit more traction with that approach than by saying, "this is what the Church teaches".

One other thing to remember is that you can't force anyone to be open to anything. You pretty much have to find those who are already open to hearing what you have to say. What did Jesus tell His disciples to do if a town won't receive their teachings? Leave the town, shake the dust off their feet, and go to the next town. Sometimes you just have to leave a person alone and pray that God will open the person's heart in His due time.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2011, 03:07:32 AM »

What are some ways to convince Protestants to follow the Orthodox Church?

I suppose I should ask what are some ways to convince anyone who is non-Orthodox if they are too ignorant to read such books about the faith? As I keep hearing from my Protestant friends..."I don't have time to read" or "I am too busy" etc. What can I do then, pray?

Thanks!

M



Pray first, then talk to them.

Remember, Christ went into the desert and prayed and fasted for forty days before beginning His ministry.

You can never convince anyone to follow anything you do by argument alone. Live your faith. Be an example unto others. St. Seraphim of Sarov is famous for saying "acquire a spirit of peace, and thousands around you will be saved." Or to borrow an expression from Francis of Assisi, "preach the Gospel, and when necessary, use words."

Invite friends to come to Church with you. Invite them to social events your parish has.

Don't be obnoxious about it. No one likes to have another faith pushed on them. Faith is a very personal thing. If you get too pushy about it, you'll just insult people.

Live your faith and pray for others. This is the best you can do.
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2011, 03:11:17 AM »

What are some ways to convince Protestants to follow the Orthodox Church?

I suppose I should ask what are some ways to convince anyone who is non-Orthodox if they are too ignorant to read such books about the faith? As I keep hearing from my Protestant friends..."I don't have time to read" or "I am too busy" etc. What can I do then, pray?

Thanks!

M



One thing that drew me to Orthodoxy was the humility and reverence that I observed in so many Orthodox believers (this forum is often an exception I'm afraid, and I am to blame more than most.) So try to be humble in articulating the differences and benefits of the true Faith. We have the Fathers and the apostles to rely upon, which is good to do when discussing and debating with Protestants. They only have their own opinions or that of their particular denomination to rely upon. But the more we say, "The Church teaches... Father____ teaches... Saint____ says, etc" then the more we demonstrate the objectivity of our Orthodox foundation. Plus, it helps to keep us humble, since we are not simply relying upon our own individualistic interpretations.

Here is an article I wrote on Sola Scriptura. It might be helpful to you:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=136158253123105

And yes, do pray!


Selam


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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2011, 03:28:51 AM »

Notwithstanding my sarcastic previous comment, I agree with a couple of you who have said that "convince" is not the best way to evangelize anyone, but I think that communicating a reality that always seemed obvious to me, that the authority/traditions of the church preceded the composition of the scriptures, is interesting. That is, I haven't ever given any presentation of this argument much thought, as I just always accepted it. What exactly is the Protestant argument that justifies their rejection of all that preceded the actual composition of the modern scriptures (something that the church did, in a very "churchly" way)?
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2011, 03:33:32 AM »

Notwithstanding my sarcastic previous comment, I agree with a couple of you who have said that "convince" is not the best way to evangelize anyone, but I think that communicating a reality that always seemed obvious to me, that the authority/traditions of the church preceded the composition of the scriptures, is interesting. That is, I haven't ever given any presentation of this argument much thought, as I just always accepted it. What exactly is the Protestant argument that justifies their rejection of all that preceded the actual composition of the modern scriptures (something that the church did, in a very "churchly" way)?

Simple. Most Protestants have absolutely no idea how the canon of scripture came into existence.

In their minds the Bible just came from the sky leather bound with the words of Christ in red. Wink
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2011, 03:34:54 AM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

 Roll Eyes

y u mad tho?

You're expressing an opinion, clearly antagonistic to the Orthodox teaching, as if fact, on an Orthodox forum.
As if you don't do the same thing? Undecided

No, I don't.
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2011, 09:07:40 AM »

Hmmm...

Seems to me that even an honest practitioner of (true) 'Sola Scriptura' would have to arrive at the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is received through the laying on of hands which is Chrismation.

There also has to be a demonstrable Apostolic succession combined w/ adherence to the Creed.

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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2011, 09:43:08 AM »

HandmaidenofGod, Thankful, PeterTheAleut, Gebre Menfes Kidus,

Thank you all very much and the others who I haven't named.

I will try my best and Pray to God about this.

Thank you so much!

M
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2011, 10:23:44 AM »

All men and women ultimately pick and choose what to believe. Most think that they are following an authority (Bible, Church, science, etc.), though tye are really just fooling themselves about how true or objective their beliefs and opinions are. In that way, atheism and Protestantism and Orthodoxy are really just three sides of the same coin. Er... you know what I mean.

If we have free will then there will always be a measure of picking and choosing and so it will really come down to what degree? We will show restraint differently based on what we view as an authority. The Church can talk back to you and so we use more restraint than protestants when it comes to obeying the Church.

If you ask the Bible questions it won't talk back to you and so protestants have less restraint in doing whatever they want to do, and believing whatever they want to believe. They can make the Bible say whatever they want it to say, and they can also ignore any passage they want by way of cultural or scientific relevancy.

And so they are ultimately an authority in a way we are not.

Atheists? It all depends on what kind of atheist we are talking about. If we are talking about one who believes in free will then they are the only authority for they strive on absolute autonomy. They want to have absolute freedom in doing whatever they want to do without restraint. The only problem is other atheists who believe in free will want absolute autonomy as well. There will ultimately be a conflict if everyone wants absolute autonomy.

For atheists that are determinists. Well, they will use the state as an arm of their authority to force everyone else to submit to what they think is right or wrong. The only problem is every determinist wants to use the state to do that and so their will ultimately be conflict.
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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2011, 01:13:56 PM »

Notwithstanding my sarcastic previous comment, I agree with a couple of you who have said that "convince" is not the best way to evangelize anyone, but I think that communicating a reality that always seemed obvious to me, that the authority/traditions of the church preceded the composition of the scriptures, is interesting. That is, I haven't ever given any presentation of this argument much thought, as I just always accepted it. What exactly is the Protestant argument that justifies their rejection of all that preceded the actual composition of the modern scriptures (something that the church did, in a very "churchly" way)?

Simple. Most Protestants have absolutely no idea how the canon of scripture came into existence.

In their minds the Bible just came from the sky leather bound with the words of Christ in red. Wink

^^^THIS^^^  I believe the question of the Canon is one of the Top Two reasons folks begin exploring Ancient Christianity and the Historic Church.  The second, would be the myriad of conflicting opinions different sectarian Protestants have on many crucial issues despite all professing "Sola Scriptura!.   Cool
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 11:02:12 AM »

As a RC inquiring into Orthodoxy, this thread is what I have maintained all along. It boils down to a question of authority. The comment on the  canon of scripture being formalized by the undivided church eliminates sola scriptura as the Bible is actually part of Tradition or at least determined by it. The only question I had to answer is does the Bishop of Rome have all the  authority or is it shared as in the Orthodox churches. I have slowly come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy best models the pre-schism church even though the Pope was always a force as he represented the Latin speaking church. This is why  I am on the path I am on. on an unrelated point, how does an illiterate or blind person determine what is right as they almost have to depend on other peoples words. My wife has macular degeneration and really is limited to what she can hear(you tube, tapes ect). a lot of posters on this site are very well versed in ancient document of the Fathers and the Councils. My wife  is somewhat limited to what I can explain and I am a terrible teacher. She converted to the RCC about 8 yrs after we were married and now is somewhat hesitant to consider converting to Orthodoxy. any suggestions/prayers. would be appreciated
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »

Notwithstanding my sarcastic previous comment, I agree with a couple of you who have said that "convince" is not the best way to evangelize anyone, but I think that communicating a reality that always seemed obvious to me, that the authority/traditions of the church preceded the composition of the scriptures, is interesting. That is, I haven't ever given any presentation of this argument much thought, as I just always accepted it. What exactly is the Protestant argument that justifies their rejection of all that preceded the actual composition of the modern scriptures (something that the church did, in a very "churchly" way)?

Simple. Most Protestants have absolutely no idea how the canon of scripture came into existence.

In their minds the Bible just came from the sky leather bound with the words of Christ in red. Wink

You think most Orthodox do? Some even believe there was a single source of scripture every Hebrew was reading from during the times of Christ called the Septuagint. Frankly that has more lulz than red lettering the words of Christ.

Sorry, but from my experience your average fundie would run circles around your average Orthodox when it comes to the content of scripture and its history.

Let's not get too self-righteous.
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2011, 11:42:12 AM »

Also, I know the Southern Baptist Convention also has some guidelines regarding beliefs and what can and cannot be taught.
The Southern Baptists have a non-binding statement of belief that has been subject to revision three times since it was first penned in 1925.To be considered a Southern Baptist, one must only give to the SBC cooperative program; individual churches may teach as they say fit, regardless of their affiliation. There is an assumed unity of doctrine among Southern Baptists because why would one give to the cooperative program -- which in turn funds SBC missionary efforts around the world, which are held to a doctrinal standard -- if they did not agree with its doctrinal position?

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL ORTHODOX CHURCH
MyMapleStory
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Faith: Approaching Orthodoxy
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2011, 07:09:32 PM »

From a personal assumption they have the Holy spirit guiding them. Of course anyone else who claims the holy spirit must be lying or mistaken, unless they agree with them.
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