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Author Topic: Mozarabic rite in America?  (Read 2197 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: April 14, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »

Are there any Western Rite parishes in America that celebrate the Mozarabic rite?  I have seen pictures of a beautiful church in NYC which claims to use this rite, but I'm not sure if they are canonical or not? 
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 06:25:44 PM »

I don't think there are any.
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 07:47:14 PM »

I'm pretty sure the church that uses the "mozarabic" rite in NYC is a part of the same synod as the one I'm in, which is not in communion with World Orthodoxy. I don't think there are any World Orthodox churches that use this rite anymore, at least to the best of my knowledge.
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 10:10:22 PM »

There are no Mozarabic Catholic parishes in America but there is at least one priest with biritual faculties who celebrates the Mozarabic Mass around the country.
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 04:38:58 PM »

I checked and don't see the Church your talking about in NYC as listed among the Milan Synod parishes in the USA (Or whatever they call themselves these days in America). 
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 10:14:18 PM »

I checked and don't see the Church your talking about in NYC as listed among the Milan Synod parishes in the USA (Or whatever they call themselves these days in America). 

This is the church I was talking about:
http://steulaliaorthodoxmission.blogspot.com/

I'm pretty sure that this used to be a part of our synod as well but it was closed down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyR3le87AHA
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »

There are no Mozarabic Catholic parishes in America but there is at least one priest with biritual faculties who celebrates the Mozarabic Mass around the country.

Interesting. I though that Mozarabic rite was restricted strictly to Toledo whereas even other parts of Spain use the regular Roman rite. Apparently I was wrong.

What's the RC policy with Mozarabic rite, Father Deacon? Is it somehow restricted or have I understood completely wrong?
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 03:45:53 PM »

Hi Reader, hope Holy Week is going well:

I'm pretty sure the church that uses the "mozarabic" rite in NYC is a part of the same synod as the one I'm in, which is not in communion with World Orthodoxy. I don't think there are any World Orthodox churches that use this rite anymore, at least to the best of my knowledge.

We're technically not in NYC, which is why we don't make that claim (though I guess we could say we are in the NYC area; one priest I know called it the "sixth borough"). We are a short bus ride away from there in Yonkers.

The Church of San Isidoro and San Leandro, as of the last time I checked was under no one. It is a nice church. Many important things in my own life happened there. We were originally formed as a mission at that Church under Archbishop (now Metropolitan) John. There are very few, if any, members left to that original church, and most have moved to other parts of the city or have left New York.

There are no Mozarabic Catholic parishes in America but there is at least one priest with biritual faculties who celebrates the Mozarabic Mass around the country.

Any priest using the Mozarabic Mass today has to-- if I understand correctly-- use the gutted Novus Ordo form. Our presanctified takes longer than that.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 03:48:49 PM by Suaiden » Logged

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Robb
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 04:52:12 PM »

Why exactly did the Church of San Isidoro and San Leandro choose to break away from the Milan Snod and place themselves udner no one?
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 05:38:52 PM »

Why exactly did the Church of San Isidoro and San Leandro choose to break away from the Milan Snod and place themselves udner no one?

The Church was under no one to begin with and he was never received, but it wasn't that we didn't try our best. The priest built the interior of the church with his own hands and was ordained by an Independent Bishop. He lived on his own trying to reach out to the community, which was of course first a difficulty because of the nearby churches, and effectively lived as an isolated hermit for a few decades.

He considered joining with our Synod, and a few functions were held there for about a year. He changed his mind. I hope he will change it again.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 10:26:26 PM »

I checked and don't see the Church your talking about in NYC as listed among the Milan Synod parishes in the USA (Or whatever they call themselves these days in America). 

This is the church I was talking about:
http://steulaliaorthodoxmission.blogspot.com/

The website says that the correct term is "Hispanic Rite".
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Suaiden
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2011, 12:23:00 AM »

I checked and don't see the Church your talking about in NYC as listed among the Milan Synod parishes in the USA (Or whatever they call themselves these days in America). 

This is the church I was talking about:
http://steulaliaorthodoxmission.blogspot.com/

The website says that the correct term is "Hispanic Rite".

The correct term is "Hispanic" Rite, though "Mozarabic" is much more common. Mozarabic was actually a Roman perjorative-- implying that the Rite was "Islamicized"-- that eventually became held up as a badge of honor by the small "Mozarabic" community families after the schism due to jealousy for their ritual.
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2011, 05:53:56 PM »

Any priest using the Mozarabic Mass today has to-- if I understand correctly-- use the gutted Novus Ordo form.

That's what I've heard, too. I was told that someone with little knowledge of liturgics would hardly see any difference between the Mozarabic NOM and the Roman NOM.
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Suaiden
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2011, 07:25:44 PM »

Any priest using the Mozarabic Mass today has to-- if I understand correctly-- use the gutted Novus Ordo form.

That's what I've heard, too. I was told that someone with little knowledge of liturgics would hardly see any difference between the Mozarabic NOM and the Roman NOM.

Well, this is true for two reasons. If you compare an old Hispanic Mass to an old Roman Mass (I mean 500 years ago, not 50 years ago), you would see little practical difference, although the music and certain gestures would be rather different. (Liturgically, however, this is because what are standard parts of the Roman canon are variable in the Hispanic.)

As to today, this depends ultimately on how it is performed. According to the ritual instructions given by Rome in 2000 in response to questions, even what direction the priest faces is up for debate. (http://personales.ya.com/mrgreyes/ermita/iglesias/igl-alt-doc.htm) Some of the "Mozarabic Masses" have all sorts of Novus Ordo items, such as female lectors, spoken readings, the use of modern vestments, et cetera.

The preparatory prayers in both the Roman and Hispanic NOM have been basically removed, as well as other prepatory elements, such as the offertory blessings.

So, yes, that's very true. As someone raised in the NO Church before my conversion to Orthodoxy, rediscovery of the Western rites years later, and virtually exclusive use of the Hispanic ritual for the past few years, I can only say that there is a world of difference. Eastern Orthodox who see these modern "Western rites" are being cheated, especially the converts, and when they complain that the "Orthodox Western Rite" is nothing more than corrected modern forms, we know quite well their complaint is justified.

This is why our Synod has extremely strict rules concerning our usages. We are keenly aware of offering "a stone for bread" to the Orthodox of any ritual background. And the people know, when they see what we do, that same Orthodox spirit offered in a different form, but one that is not alien, but gives life and hope.
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