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Author Topic: Horologion - STS or Jordanville ROCOR  (Read 3882 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 13, 2011, 07:06:38 AM »

I have the Unabbreviated Horologion by Fr. Lawrence of Jordanville ROCOR but am interested in the Horologion or Book of Hours b y St. Tikhon Seminary Press.  Could anyone comment on the merits of the latter and maybe compare them?
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 09:49:35 AM »

I have the STS Horologion. It's a good volume, but it could be made smaller in format. It has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints. IMO, there is no "complete" horologion. All of them (STS, HTM, ROCOR, and Old Rite) have unique features that one may find desirable or even essential.
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 11:37:00 AM »

I and two other priests are working on a 'pre-horologion' that explains how the Horologion works.  My observation is that most Horologia have only minor variances, most often in translation but occasionally in application.  After all, abbots are free to apply the Horologion as they see fit, and so monasteries vary in how their particular services are arranged.

I find the STS Horologion to be very good, but I have not been able to get the Jordanville version so I can't comment on that.

What I will say is that what can make an Horologion 'good' or 'bad' is the liturgical knowledge of the user.  A well-practiced monastic reader will be able to make up for the ambiguities and omissions that are often present in these books to some degree, since they all assume different levels of expertise.  You would probably want to compare them yourself and make your own determination if you plan on using it for more than reference.


I have the STS Horologion. It's a good volume, but it could be made smaller in format. It has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints. IMO, there is no "complete" horologion. All of them (STS, HTM, ROCOR, and Old Rite) have unique features that one may find desirable or even essential.
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 01:44:24 PM »

...the STS Horologion... has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints...

I just got a copy of the STS Horologion, after using the Jordanville one for years.  Where is this material?

Admittedly, I haven't gone through the entire book page by page yet, but I haven't found any material to do with the menaion, or even major feasts in it.  The Jordanville Horologion has the daily Troparia and Kontakia, and excerpts from the Menaion and Triodion stuff, but I haven't found anything like that in the STS one.

Unless you're referring to stuff like mentioning various saint in the Litya, or something like that.  I haven't gone into that much detail yet, I'm afraid.  Like I said, I've only recently received it.

So, it seems to me, that the STS Horologion has an advantage in that it makes the different "styles" of the services, like Lenten and Paschal variations, much clearer, as it prints them out separately, rather than having a bunch of confusing rubrics bouncing the Reader back and forth throughout the text.  The Jordanville Horologion has very basic menaion and Triodion type stuff in it already (basically just the Troparia, Kontakia and sometimes the Prokeimenon.  And on occasion, the Antiphons for the Divine Liturgy).

I would think that if one has a full Liturgical library, with the entire Menaion, Lenten Triodion, Pentecostarion, etc.  the STS one would make life a bit simpler, as the layout of the service is clearer.  But, if one is piecing together Reader Services out of what one has available, the Jordanville might have an advantage - but it equally has a disadvantage that sorting out the variables for Lenten, Paschal, Festal and Ferial services can be quite a headache.

So, in the end, I'd have to say that the STS Horologion tips the scales (no pun intended, as it is actually a larger volume) over the Jordanville one, but with the caveat that it doesn't have all the handy material one might find in the Jordanville.

I realize I was rambling, but I hope that helps.
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 02:19:37 PM »

IIRC, the STS horologion has the magnifications (Russian style) for several saints, including the American ones, and prokeimena.
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 02:20:24 PM »

The STS horlogion also has a rubrics page for doing the services without a priest.
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 02:27:28 PM »

Ah, I haven't got to the magnifications bit yet.  And yes, there is a marvelous part about how things work without a Priest - all service books of all kinds should have stuff like that, I think.  There's almost a strange dependance we have on Priests in particular; so much so, that I suspect many parishes wouldn't have services on Sunday morning if something suddenly (may God forbid!) happen to their Priest
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

Thanks to all for your comments!  If only there was an an all in one volume Horologion.  Maybe someone might scan and put on the web the instructions for reader services.  My own parish has no resident priest and we have one come from the mainland about 7-8 times a year, and the rest of the Sundays we have typika and hours and it would be great to get a greater handle on the latter.
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 02:50:45 PM »

Well, it's only Vespers and Matins that are really confusing.  Especially Matins.  The Hours are actually quite easy, especially the Sunday morning ones - Lenten variations never apply.  All you have to know is what Troparia and Kontakion to use and that's it.
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 03:40:30 PM »

Thats true.  The hours we have down pat......
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 03:42:43 PM »

Thanks to all for your comments!  If only there was an an all in one volume Horologion.  Maybe someone might scan and put on the web the instructions for reader services.  My own parish has no resident priest and we have one come from the mainland about 7-8 times a year, and the rest of the Sundays we have typika and hours and it would be great to get a greater handle on the latter.

http://www.saintjonah.org/services/horologion.htm
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 03:52:44 PM »

I don't have the Jordanville Horologion but I have the HTM (Boston), STS, and Old Rite Horlogions (and yes, I do feel somewhat guilty about having 3 Horologions).  Honestly, I like the HTM (Boston) one the best, and while I have picked up the STS Horologion from time to time, probably my biggest issue with that Horologion is the translation of the Psalms.  The Jordanville, Old Rite, and HTM Horologions all use the same translation of the Psalms, so these are familiar to me.  In my opinion, the HTM Horologion is very straight forward.  The STS Horlogion seems to have a lot of explanatory material that other Horologions do not have, but I'm not sure if this material alone is worth the purchase.  The HTM Horologion is unique in that it contains Synaxarion readings, but this significantly increases the size of the volume and if one owned a copy of the Prologue then this material is not so critical.  The Old Rite Horlogion has troparian and kontakia, the HTM seems to have more troparia and kontakia (and definitely more for Greek and Western saints), but I did not realize that the Jordanville Horologion also has troparia and kontakia. 

I realize the response doesn't exactly fit the question, but hope it helps anyway. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 04:44:43 PM »

Yes, the Boston Horologion is pretty much the best overall, and I didn't mention it, as it wasn't part of the original question.  But, if you're in a parish or mission that is following the Slavic traditions, then it can be a bit confusing, since the BH is set up for Greek, or Byzantine traditions.

Admittedly, there isn't much difference between Byzantine and Slavic traditions as far as the Daily Cycle of services go, but there are differences.

That, and I always got tongue-tied over Boston's translation of various hymns, as opposed to the Jordanville or OCA ones.  Don't know why, I just do.
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 09:34:15 AM »

I don't have the Jordanville Horologion but I have the HTM (Boston), STS, and Old Rite Horlogions (and yes, I do feel somewhat guilty about having 3 Horologions).  Honestly, I like the HTM (Boston) one the best, 

I did not realize that the Jordanville Horologion also has troparia and kontakia. 

I have the Jordanville, Old Rite, and HTM Horologia. The HTM is by far the best in my opinion. The Jordanville has the added benefit of adding the customary Morning and Evening Prayers for those who use them (although the morning prayers are not separated from the rest of the Midnight Office, which makes for quite a peculiar usage). It only has Tropiara and Kontakia for great feasts as far as I can remember.

The HTM follows Greek usage, but the differences are slight. Also, where Troparia/Kontakia differ between Greek and Russian usage for great feasts, the HTM includes both. The most expensive, but by far the best.
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 03:23:39 PM »

I have the STS Horologion. It's a good volume, but it could be made smaller in format. It has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints. IMO, there is no "complete" horologion. All of them (STS, HTM, ROCOR, and Old Rite) have unique features that one may find desirable or even essential.

I totally agree with this. I'd add a Coptic Horologion, too.

What I really long for is the day we finally get sensible and prepare something similar in concept to the Catholics' monastic breviary. Don't know if we'll ever try something like that, but it would be a pleasure to be able to do the hours at home without having to get out four or five different (mostly large) books.
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 04:06:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I live and breath the Coptic Agpeya, I am quite curious what is the difference? I have read the Armenian Hours and it is very different, as is the Ethiopian Hours (which I would of course also pray faithfully if there any English translations available, but when I asked my priest about it with a straight face he laughed and said, "maybe you should do it?" of course he meant in the long term future because he knows my scholarly involvement in Orthodox and of course he works as a translator with UCLA so it was as much an invitation as anything Smiley ) but I have not read the Horologion..

well, I investigated it a bit, and it is similar, but like the Ethiopian and Armenian Hours, it is not thematic like the Coptic Agpeya, which is oriented around the Passion and Crucifixion of Christ to each Hour, and for me, brings my mentality towards these redemptive acts of Christ, so for me, to pray the Hours is not just to pray some routine prayers, but to bring the very Passion of Christ into my daily meditations and to conform my daily realities towards this inherent deeper reality of Jesus Christ.  As Saint Basil said, "for his mystic sojourn among us is called flesh and blood, whereby our soul is nourished and meanwhile trained for the contemplation of actual realities." [ Eighth Letter]

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 10:01:27 PM »

I have the STS Horologion. It's a good volume, but it could be made smaller in format. It has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints. IMO, there is no "complete" horologion. All of them (STS, HTM, ROCOR, and Old Rite) have unique features that one may find desirable or even essential.

I totally agree with this. I'd add a Coptic Horologion, too.

What I really long for is the day we finally get sensible and prepare something similar in concept to the Catholics' monastic breviary. Don't know if we'll ever try something like that, but it would be a pleasure to be able to do the hours at home without having to get out four or five different (mostly large) books.

Such books don't exist in Orthodoxy, because a daily private recitation of the Divine Office is not contemplated. It is the Church's public, communal, form of prayer, whether there is a priest or not. "Where two or three are gathered together in My name..." But in private, historically, [literate] laity and monastics prayed the Psalter, while the illiterate said a greater number of Jesus Prayers and did more prostrations. In recent centuries, the private recitation of the Psalter has, to a large extent, been displaced by printed prayer books. But the Psalter is the ancient Christian prayer book for solitary prayer.
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 06:20:40 PM »

I have the STS Horologion. It's a good volume, but it could be made smaller in format. It has material that AFAIK the ROCOR one does not--particularly material for American saints. IMO, there is no "complete" horologion. All of them (STS, HTM, ROCOR, and Old Rite) have unique features that one may find desirable or even essential.

I totally agree with this. I'd add a Coptic Horologion, too.

What I really long for is the day we finally get sensible and prepare something similar in concept to the Catholics' monastic breviary. Don't know if we'll ever try something like that, but it would be a pleasure to be able to do the hours at home without having to get out four or five different (mostly large) books.

Such books don't exist in Orthodoxy, because a daily private recitation of the Divine Office is not contemplated. It is the Church's public, communal, form of prayer, whether there is a priest or not. "Where two or three are gathered together in My name..." But in private, historically, [literate] laity and monastics prayed the Psalter, while the illiterate said a greater number of Jesus Prayers and did more prostrations. In recent centuries, the private recitation of the Psalter has, to a large extent, been displaced by printed prayer books. But the Psalter is the ancient Christian prayer book for solitary prayer.

The result of this, unfortunately, is that people don't become familiar with the many extraordinary texts that are part, in particular, of the Vespers and Matins services. So while I know what you say is probably accurate, I don't necessarily agree that it is entirely desirable, especially in a country of high literacy. And most churches don't do daily Vespers or Matins, so there's no way for a lay person to become exposed to these texts except by personal initiative. I don't know any printed prayer book that contains enough to say either Vespers or Matins adequately. Nothing wrong with a good prayer book, they're just not meant for that use.
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 02:03:47 PM »


[/quote] The result of this, unfortunately, is that people don't become familiar with the many extraordinary texts that are part, in particular, of the Vespers and Matins services. So while I know what you say is probably accurate, I don't necessarily agree that it is entirely desirable, especially in a country of high literacy. And most churches don't do daily Vespers or Matins, so there's no way for a lay person to become exposed to these texts except by personal initiative. I don't know any printed prayer book that contains enough to say either Vespers or Matins adequately. Nothing wrong with a good prayer book, they're just not meant for that use.
[/quote]

Dear Hermogenes:

We have strayed a bit from the topic. I only know Fr. Laurence's Unabbreviated Horologion from Jordanville, which I like because it is unabbreviated, i.e., it doesn't use the customary abbreviations of the Church Slavonic editions, which could be a stumbling block for those less familiar with the service texts. Also, I belong to ROCOR, so the texts are the same as those I hear in church, which I think would be a consideration for a lot of people - which version is used in their parish?  Perhaps the St. Tikhon's edition also avoids abbreviations, but I haven't seen it. As for the Holy Transfiguration Monastery edition, I try to avoid using their products, on principle.

To return briefly to the question of an Eastern Orthodox "breviary", I'm not against such an idea in theory - I just don't see how one could even be created in practice. the Horologion alone is a pretty hefty volume, then there is the Octoechos (another four volumes), the Menaion (13 large volumes, if you include the General Menaion), not to mention the Triodion and the Pentecostarion. All of these combine in virtually an infinite variety of ways when the Paschal cycle is taken into account. The Kyriopascha, which we last had in 1991, when Pascha coincides with the Annunciation, won't occur again until 2075.

Of course, while not portable, we are fortunate that, within the past decade, all of the books needed to perform the full cycle of services in English are now readily available to anyone. So people can avail themselves of all the liturgical texts to study outside of the services, if they so desire. However, I would cynically observe that most people's thirst for a knowledge of the liturgical texts does not extend to attending Saturday night vigil, let alone investing in the service books themselves.

Moreover, I think we have to ask ourselves the question: What are the Church's traditions regarding the prayer life of individuals? In this area, the Church is not very specific, due, I think, to the great disparities in literacy and circumstances that must be taken into consideration. We have the modern prayer books, which are excellent for teaching the basic prayers (and which are also relatively easy to memorize) and then we have the more ancient level of the Psalter and the Jesus Prayer, together with reading the Scriptures and the Lives of the Saints.

Most of the liturgical texts consist of poetic meditations on or allusions to Scripture, especially the Psalms, as well as the Lives of the Saints. If we have not familiarized ourselves with them beforehand, how can we fully appreciate the texts of the services when we encounter them? Again, perhaps I am overly cynical, but, in my experience, the vast majority of even regular churchgoers have never read the Gospels, let alone the Psalter or the Lives of the Saints. So, it would seem that the Church's emphasis on just those elements for the prayer life of individuals suits our spiritual needs better than trying to emulate what is, after all, a post-schism Roman Catholic devotional practice.
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 02:18:57 PM »

If you want a prayer book that has daily offices such as vespers and matins to be said in the little church (the family home), The Hours of Prayer is one such prayer book:
http://orthodoxgoods.com/hoursofprayer.html
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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2011, 02:51:03 PM »


The result of this, unfortunately, is that people don't become familiar with the many extraordinary texts that are part, in particular, of the Vespers and Matins services. So while I know what you say is probably accurate, I don't necessarily agree that it is entirely desirable, especially in a country of high literacy. And most churches don't do daily Vespers or Matins, so there's no way for a lay person to become exposed to these texts except by personal initiative. I don't know any printed prayer book that contains enough to say either Vespers or Matins adequately. Nothing wrong with a good prayer book, they're just not meant for that use.
[/quote]

Dear Hermogenes:

We have strayed a bit from the topic. I only know Fr. Laurence's Unabbreviated Horologion from Jordanville, which I like because it is unabbreviated, i.e., it doesn't use the customary abbreviations of the Church Slavonic editions, which could be a stumbling block for those less familiar with the service texts. Also, I belong to ROCOR, so the texts are the same as those I hear in church, which I think would be a consideration for a lot of people - which version is used in their parish?  Perhaps the St. Tikhon's edition also avoids abbreviations, but I haven't seen it. As for the Holy Transfiguration Monastery edition, I try to avoid using their products, on principle.

To return briefly to the question of an Eastern Orthodox "breviary", I'm not against such an idea in theory - I just don't see how one could even be created in practice. the Horologion alone is a pretty hefty volume, then there is the Octoechos (another four volumes), the Menaion (13 large volumes, if you include the General Menaion), not to mention the Triodion and the Pentecostarion. All of these combine in virtually an infinite variety of ways when the Paschal cycle is taken into account. The Kyriopascha, which we last had in 1991, when Pascha coincides with the Annunciation, won't occur again until 2075.

Of course, while not portable, we are fortunate that, within the past decade, all of the books needed to perform the full cycle of services in English are now readily available to anyone. So people can avail themselves of all the liturgical texts to study outside of the services, if they so desire. However, I would cynically observe that most people's thirst for a knowledge of the liturgical texts does not extend to attending Saturday night vigil, let alone investing in the service books themselves.

Moreover, I think we have to ask ourselves the question: What are the Church's traditions regarding the prayer life of individuals? In this area, the Church is not very specific, due, I think, to the great disparities in literacy and circumstances that must be taken into consideration. We have the modern prayer books, which are excellent for teaching the basic prayers (and which are also relatively easy to memorize) and then we have the more ancient level of the Psalter and the Jesus Prayer, together with reading the Scriptures and the Lives of the Saints.

Most of the liturgical texts consist of poetic meditations on or allusions to Scripture, especially the Psalms, as well as the Lives of the Saints. If we have not familiarized ourselves with them beforehand, how can we fully appreciate the texts of the services when we encounter them? Again, perhaps I am overly cynical, but, in my experience, the vast majority of even regular churchgoers have never read the Gospels, let alone the Psalter or the Lives of the Saints. So, it would seem that the Church's emphasis on just those elements for the prayer life of individuals suits our spiritual needs better than trying to emulate what is, after all, a post-schism Roman Catholic devotional practice.
[/quote]

Yes, it would be a pretty big logistical headache, and no guarantee anyone would even want it, since we Orthodox tend to stick with what we've "always done," no matter how well or poorly it works. I want to be clear, though: I am most definitely not trying to emulate anything Catholic. I just always find myself wishing as I lay out the five or six volumes I'll need for the evening's Vespers service that I could just use one book with everything in it. The multivolume approach seems almost guaranteed to produce distraction as it interrupts the flow of prayer. The RC breviaries are usually four volumes, btw, not just one book. They arrange them by season.
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« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2011, 03:22:08 PM »


Yes, it would be a pretty big logistical headache, and no guarantee anyone would even want it, since we Orthodox tend to stick with what we've "always done," no matter how well or poorly it works. I want to be clear, though: I am most definitely not trying to emulate anything Catholic. I just always find myself wishing as I lay out the five or six volumes I'll need for the evening's Vespers service that I could just use one book with everything in it. The multivolume approach seems almost guaranteed to produce distraction as it interrupts the flow of prayer. The RC breviaries are usually four volumes, btw, not just one book. They arrange them by season.
[/quote]

Perhaps a re-examination of the physical layout of your cleros might help somewhat. My life as a psalomshchik improved radically after I noticed at Jordanville that each cleros had a lectern that was about 8 feet long, with enough shelf space underneath to hold all the required service books and music. Several books could be open at once, everything is handy and, of course, juggling is reduced to a minimum. But I still kept up my practice of typing out the moveable portions that the choir would sing, like the stichera on "Lord, I have cried" and the troparia and kontakia, so that I could point the text and each singer would have his own copy. We were fortunate in those days to have a group of singers who could sing by the tones from a pointed text.
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« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2011, 03:25:53 PM »

Hermogenes,

One could do all right with a complete Octoechos and a Horologion, with perhaps a Festal Menaion, Triodion, and Pentecostarion to cover the festal cycle. A General Menaion could cover the sanctoral cycle. It would not cover all the specific hymns from the Menaion, but it would be a start. The Byzantine Rite just has a ton of specific and changeable hymnody which cannot all be put in one book.

Whereas one could do a version  of Byzantine Rite services at home, they would at best require adjustments to do as services without clergy, and abbreviations due to lack of texts. This is quite different from the Roman, Monastic, or Sarum breviaries which have less variation overall, although I find the Western canonical hours vary more from day to day in the week.
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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 03:50:02 PM »

I just always find myself wishing as I lay out the five or six volumes I'll need for the evening's Vespers service that I could just use one book with everything in it. The multivolume approach seems almost guaranteed to produce distraction as it interrupts the flow of prayer. The RC breviaries are usually four volumes, btw, not just one book. They arrange them by season.

It is oxymoronic to say one would like “one book with everything in it” unless you produce a breviary that looks like this:

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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »


Quote

It is oxymoronic to say one would like “one book with everything in it” unless you produce a breviary that looks like this:



Wouldn't have to be anywhere nearly that big. It would be in four or five volumes. Using Bible paper, which I do realize many people intensely dislike, a 2,200-page book is defiitely very portable. Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible--about the size of a large paperback novel. All four or five volumes would fit in a briefcase or rucksack with plenty of room to spare, although the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one ata time. If they had four or five marker ribbons per volume, which for some reason most makers of Orthodox prayer books leave out, it could be a very practical set of books, if only for oddbals like me who enjoy saying Matins and Vespers. The BIG question really is: How many other such oddballs are there? Is there even a market for something of this sort?
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 05:21:04 PM »


Quote

It is oxymoronic to say one would like “one book with everything in it” unless you produce a breviary that looks like this:



Wouldn't have to be anywhere nearly that big. It would be in four or five volumes. Using Bible paper, which I do realize many people intensely dislike, a 2,200-page book is defiitely very portable. Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible--about the size of a large paperback novel. All four or five volumes would fit in a briefcase or rucksack with plenty of room to spare, although the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one ata time. If they had four or five marker ribbons per volume, which for some reason most makers of Orthodox prayer books leave out, it could be a very practical set of books, if only for oddbals like me who enjoy saying Matins and Vespers. The BIG question really is: How many other such oddballs are there? Is there even a market for something of this sort?

Such a thing could certainly be done, but it would be pretty cost-prohibitive.
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 05:38:09 PM »


Wouldn't have to be anywhere nearly that big. It would be in four or five volumes. Using Bible paper, which I do realize many people intensely dislike, a 2,200-page book is defiitely very portable. Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible--about the size of a large paperback novel. All four or five volumes would fit in a briefcase or rucksack with plenty of room to spare, although the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one ata time. If they had four or five marker ribbons per volume, which for some reason most makers of Orthodox prayer books leave out, it could be a very practical set of books, if only for oddbals like me who enjoy saying Matins and Vespers. The BIG question really is: How many other such oddballs are there? Is there even a market for something of this sort?

That seems about right.  Knowing the four volume western liturgy of the hours, I would expect the eastern liturgy to be about the same size, since there is an office of readings in the western set,  or maybe five volumes at the outside to account for the desire for a selection of additional ritual services.

I would certainly be interested and love high quality bible paper.... Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 05:41:33 PM »


Quote

It is oxymoronic to say one would like “one book with everything in it” unless you produce a breviary that looks like this:



Wouldn't have to be anywhere nearly that big. It would be in four or five volumes. Using Bible paper, which I do realize many people intensely dislike, a 2,200-page book is defiitely very portable. Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible--about the size of a large paperback novel. All four or five volumes would fit in a briefcase or rucksack with plenty of room to spare, although the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one at a time. If they had four or five marker ribbons per volume, which for some reason most makers of Orthodox prayer books leave out, it could be a very practical set of books, if only for oddbals like me who enjoy saying Matins and Vespers. The BIG question really is: How many other such oddballs are there? Is there even a market for something of this sort?

3-4 hours a day in prayer - I am chastened! Questions:

-At what font size? I begin to have trouble reading anything under 10pt text.

-You said, "Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible". But then you said, "the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one [book] at a time". If I understand you correctly, you are contemplating, basically, one book per quarter-year. That being the case, would not the triodion and pentecostarion texts have to be integrated into the quarter where they might potentially fall?

-Do you contemplate that the complete horologion, octoechos and psalter will appear in each volume? Seems like all of that would be necessary, if each volume is to be usable as a standalone text.

-New calendar or old, since this probably will affect in which volumes you place at least some of the triodion and pentecostarion texts? In either case, you will have to account for the earliest and latest possible dates for Easter, which will be tricky.

As for the market, my understanding is that the complete menaion from SJOKP has only sold a few hundred copies, so I wonder. But, if you want something of this sort, and believe in its worth, the best way to get it is to do it yourself, and let the naysayers like me be darned to heck! There is always the self-publishing route.
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 09:48:06 PM »

I prefer Fr Laurence's "Jordanville" Horologion ... I am a member of the Church Abroad, and familair with the translations, which I like very much, but, to be honest, I will admit I am probably somehwat biased, and hev not liked any OCA translations I have seen. I have seen the Boston Horologion, yes, it is nice, but, unfortunately, taking into consideration the 'entire situation,' I cannot, in good conscience, support Holy Transfiguration Monastery ...
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »

Have you considered buying the Boston Horologion second hand, or would this still be too much in support of the monastery for you?  I only ask because in this instance they would have already gotten their money, and so you wouldn't be giving them any more.
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2011, 01:06:32 PM »


Quote

It is oxymoronic to say one would like “one book with everything in it” unless you produce a breviary that looks like this:



Wouldn't have to be anywhere nearly that big. It would be in four or five volumes. Using Bible paper, which I do realize many people intensely dislike, a 2,200-page book is definitely very portable. Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible--about the size of a large paperback novel. All four or five volumes would fit in a briefcase or rucksack with plenty of room to spare, although the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one at a time. If they had four or five marker ribbons per volume, which for some reason most makers of Orthodox prayer books leave out, it could be a very practical set of books, if only for oddballs like me who enjoy saying Matins and Vespers. The BIG question really is: How many other such oddballs are there? Is there even a market for something of this sort?

3-4 hours a day in prayer - I am chastened! Questions:

-At what font size? I begin to have trouble reading anything under 10pt text.

-You said, "Even the largest volume--the one containing Triodion and Pentecostarion--would be a smaller book physically than the Orthodox Study Bible". But then you said, "the whole point is that you'd only have to carry one [book] at a time". If I understand you correctly, you are contemplating, basically, one book per quarter-year. That being the case, would not the triodion and pentecostarion texts have to be integrated into the quarter where they might potentially fall?

-Do you contemplate that the complete horologion, octoechos and psalter will appear in each volume? Seems like all of that would be necessary, if each volume is to be usable as a standalone text.

-New calendar or old, since this probably will affect in which volumes you place at least some of the triodion and pentecostarion texts? In either case, you will have to account for the earliest and latest possible dates for Easter, which will be tricky.

As for the market, my understanding is that the complete menaion from SJOKP has only sold a few hundred copies, so I wonder. But, if you want something of this sort, and believe in its worth, the best way to get it is to do it yourself, and let the naysayers like me be darned to heck! There is always the self-publishing route.

The Liturgy of the Hours is roughly 10 over 10.5-11.0. (I'm eyeballing it, don't have a gauge handy.)

Each volume would have to contain the complete Psalter and Octoechos, as well as the complete Menaion for the time-frame covered in the volume. The Menaion section would probably be somewhere from 600-900 pages.

Only those sections of the Horologion would be included that pertained to the date-range in question. For example, none of the Lenten content would be needed in the volume covering the period after Pentecost.

It's possible one of the section breaks would come at Pascha, if including both Triodion and Pentecostarion resulted in a book that was too ungainly. And there would always be a certain amount of overlap, especially in the Lent/Pascha volumes, because it isn't a static date.

New vs. Old calendar is certainly a hugely emotional and complicated issue. I don't know how to resolve it at this point. My church uses the "revised" Julian calendar, so I would probably start there and see how many changes or appendices would be needed to accommodate Old Calendarists as well. It may not be possible to accommodate both factions in one work, but we'll see.

I agree, the best way to gauge the interest is to simply begin, produce a sample volume, and see what people say.

Most of our prayer books are fairly inexpensive. The complete Menaion in either Athonite or Slavonic form is more than a thousand dollars a set (I think SJOK's edition comes to around $1,400). I believe the whole set I'm proposing could be brought in for about $200 retail, which is only a little more than the RC breviary costs--especially if the editor were willing to forgo any royalties.

If for some reason a simpler or shorter form seemed preferable, the General Menaion could be substituted for the monthly volumes.

Lots of issues arise in preparing a work like this. Permissions would probably be the biggest headache.

BTW--a spoken (i.e., read) Matins takes about 45 minutes to an hour, assuming a fairly brisk pace. Vespers takes about a half-hour, depending on whether or not you include the Ninth Hour and/or Typica. (Also, whether it's a Vigil, etc.) It's more than a Trisagion and a couple of Psalms, for sure, but I'm guessing most people following this thread already do quite a bit more than that.

I apologize for taking us so far off topic. This has been a pet idea of mine for a number of years, and I have begun work on it, so my enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of me.
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2011, 03:33:35 PM »

I forgot to mention that these would be available in individual volumes, like the Menaion is now.
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