Author Topic: Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.  (Read 10645 times)

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Offline jac109

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Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« on: May 24, 2004, 04:39:02 AM »
Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
Same-sex marriage called last straw prompting plan for 1 state to secede
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571
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Offline Fr. David

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 07:25:18 AM »
Can not WAIT to hear what Joe Z has to say about THIS!   ;D
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Offline ania

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 09:46:53 AM »
Well, if they can do it, more power to them.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Linus7

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2004, 10:01:00 AM »
Some folks in South Carolina want to secede . . . again?

Won't happen.

Unless I am mistaken, there is a sizeable portion of the population of that state dependent on the federal government.

Bread and circuses will keep them "loyal."
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 10:01:28 AM by Linus7 »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2004, 10:34:06 AM »
I say lets form an Orthodox Christian nation, within the USA!
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2004, 10:41:55 AM »
I say lets form an Orthodox Christian nation, within the USA!

From what I've seen of our political and other discussions, we would only succeed at seceding, over and over again.

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Offline Schultz

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2004, 11:03:56 AM »
There are dozens of these "Christian nations" in Montana and Idaho, usually populated by people who have never even seen anyone other than a white American their entire lives.

I am highly dubious of any such venture.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2004, 11:07:03 AM »
From what I've seen of our political and other discussions, we would only succeed at seceding, over and over again.



lol...you are so very right....we'd all end up having our own little nation.
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Offline JoeS

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2004, 05:08:19 PM »
I have the uneasy feeling that this new state would be extremely intolerable among the most moderate who may not agree totally with what this group is trying to do.  Ofcourse, this isnt going to happen, but hypothetically speaking, what about those folks who are gay and live together would these Christians tar and feather them or tie them up and drop them off at the border.  My mind is swurling with thoughts of this "third Reich" style of state.  Its mind boggling.

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Offline jac109

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2004, 05:22:18 PM »
I have the uneasy feeling that this new state would be extremely intolerable among the most moderate who may not agree totally with what this group is trying to do.  Ofcourse, this isnt going to happen, but hypothetically speaking, what about those folks who are gay and live together would these Christians tar and feather them or tie them up and drop them off at the border.  My mind is swurling with thoughts of this "third Reich" style of state.  Its mind boggling.

When is the last time someone was tarred and feathered, a hundred years ago? Nonetheless, if the sodomites don't like living in a Christian society, then let them form their own state. Wait, that's not necessary. They already have California, so they can just move there.

We're already in a "Third Reich" state of sorts. We have effectual defacto suppression of Christianity and traditional values.
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2004, 05:29:23 PM »
Let me get my gun!  I'll proudly stand on the border of any southron nation that desires seceed (a state is by definition a sovreign nation that may or may not *voluntarily* yield some of their power to a larger overarching institution) and shoot to kill any yankee that dares try to get across.

I fully support any move for re-secession and have done so for years.  I am also a financial contributer to the CSA project (a project whereas 5 million pro-confederates over the next ten years move to South Carolina).

Secession is a natural right.  If it is wrong for the south to seceed, it was wrong for America to seceed in the first place.  We are a seperate ethnic group with our own culture etc.  It is high time that we stop being ruled (read oppressed) by a tyranical foreign power known as Babylon on the Potomoc.

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Offline Ebor

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2004, 05:43:34 PM »
There are dozens of these "Christian nations" in Montana and Idaho, usually populated by people who have never even seen anyone other than a white American their entire lives.

Well, alot if not most of the folk that do that are immigrants to Montana, just to be precise.  And there are people who aren't white living there too. Not as many as say, Baltimore, but some. (remember that Montana also has a number of Reservations: Blackfeet, Cheyanne, etc)

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Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2004, 06:08:17 PM »
Joe,

   The last attempted Confederate nation was supported by a less-than-desired figure among good Orthodox people- The Pope of Rome ;D.

   Seriously though, any secession movements are quite foolish. One ridiculous movement, the League of the South, declares their desire "to advance the cultural, social, economic, and political well being and independence of the Southern people by all honourable means."

   That's a touchy statement, but then again, they heavily limit themselves by generally focusing on our "Anglo-Saxon roots", and by continuing the "spirit of 1861" (which I don't bash since my g-g-grandfathers fought for the South). But they are really foolish, partisan movements, which is why I belittle them in the first place.
If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Offline jac109

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2004, 02:52:56 AM »
There are dozens of these "Christian nations" in Montana and Idaho, usually populated by people who have never even seen anyone other than a white American their entire lives.

Is that a bad thing?

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Offline jac109

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2004, 02:56:04 AM »
lol...you are so very right....we'd all end up having our own little nation.

Stop the hate - separate!
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2004, 08:20:07 AM »
This talk reminds me of the book "Snow Crash".
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2004, 03:50:28 PM »
As a resident of South Carolina, whose ancestors fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War, let me say that I am GLAD they were defeated. I LIKE being a part of the United States of America. I consider myself a Southern resident of the United States of America, and I'll put my loyalty to the USA before any Neo-Confederate idea of Southern Nationalism.  Growing up here in South Carolina, I have learned to ignore the constant bashing of the Federal Gov't and the supposed "vile Yankees." I don't venerate the Lost Cause and the "gallant lads in gray" because I'm glad their cause was lost.  Few people in SC ever stop to think that nearly ALL progressive change has had to be forced on this state and almost never comes from within.  I'm convinced South Carolina would be a Fascist Republic if it were not for the restraining influence of the Federal Government on this state. Ending slavery, granting female suffrage, ending prohibition, ending segregated schools, ending Jim Crow laws were ALL brought about by federal decree and forced on the state of SC and I'm glad they were.  I shudder to think who truly intolerant SC would be if it were not for Washington bringing us into line with the rest of the nation.

Offline ExOrienteLux

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2004, 09:33:47 PM »
Personally, I would much rather (and do) support the Free State Project reworking NH than this idea.  I have a feeling that it's going to fall flat on its face, which I hope the FSP doesn't do, because that movement actually has some chance of working.

Oh well.  There's no use arguing over what Protestants will do, is there? ;)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2004, 09:34:10 PM by ExOrienteLux »
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Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2004, 09:37:55 PM »

   The FSP also isn't on the same plane as nostolgic Dixie movements- they offer all different peoples a chance to participate (not calling the LoS rascist, but it is very narrow).

   I hope the FSP works.
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2004, 02:41:12 AM »
ahem.  I would like to chime in as the only LoS member on this board (that I am aware of).  No the LoS is not racist.  In fact so called minority groups make up a sizable chunk of its membership.  The same with teh SCV.  Let us not forget that many Native Americans fought with and for the confederacy (some in parts of Flordia kept the fight up until the latter half of hte 20th century) not to mention many Americans of African Descent and even some Americans of Latin American descent.  (I would be remiss if I didn't mention for Nektarios' sake that the state of Arizona---then a territory of the Confederacy--sent several men to fight, five of who died for the Confederacy).  

That being said, I actually don't support these measures to cause SC to re-secede.  Don't get me wrong.  Ain't a day that goes by that I don't hope for a free and independent Dixe (therefore my membership in teh LoS), but I desire that freedom for all Southlanders, not just one surrounded nation like SC.  

If these efforts succeed and SC secedes at some point, it will merely be swallowed up whole by the yankee govm't in a massive bloodbath.  I hate to be dire, but I doupt at taht point if any SouthCarolinian will be left alive (man, woman or child) since the govm't apparently does not have moral qualms about waging war on non-beligerants.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2004, 03:02:16 AM »
I'm with Tikhon29605 here. As an alumnus of Washington and Lee University I am fairly sure that Robert Edward Lee (President of then-Washington College 1865-1871) would agree here too.
Now if the Keys were to again attempt to secede as the 'Couch Republic', I might move south again.

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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2004, 07:53:44 AM »
What Tikhon wrote is right.  The USA is not an "opt-out" system.  In other words, if you don't like what the political process in Washington is doing, your remedy is to act within that political process, not to "opt out" of it.  Membership in the USA is not "for as long as I like what Washington is doing", it is permanent.
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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2004, 04:01:54 PM »
actually, I won't go into this too much as american politics is banned until June 8, but Secession is not a constitutionally gauranteed right--it is a God Given Right, according to Locke.  

The US. Seceeded from the British empire when it felt it no longer represented the best interesest of the people.  Numerous other examples could be given.  

Membership in the US is permanent, so long as the government of the US represents the best interests of the people in each particular state.  When the government no longer represents the best interests of hte population of a particular state, than that state has a right to seceed.  Read Locke folks.  

Oh and before you throw out Locke because he upholds Secession, realize that you will also be throwing out the Decleration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constituion (both very Locke-ian in their outlook).

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2004, 04:04:34 PM »
oh and BTW, the State Constitutions of several states including New Hampshire gaurantee the right of Secession.   These State Constitutions were  approved by Washington (at least at the time) so that should give some indication of the opinions regarding this matter in our governmental system back then.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2004, 10:30:19 AM »
Re: the original story, I wonder if these people have a sense of history. I imagine they'd be calmer if they did.

This impulse to separate and form a perfect Christian society is as old as America - from the English Puritans and Shakers to Oneida and New Harmony to the Mormons.

Most of the time they failed, sometimes spectacularly.

One possible successful exception: the Amish.

Re: the South and secession, while I question the War of the Rebellion (New England and the merchant class's grievances were against Parliament, not the Christian King to whom they'd sworn their loyalty*) the South had a right to do what it did, Pope Pius IX was right to support them and Lee was a hero.

*Many people don't realize the war was a civil war. Many Americans were loyal Britons - 8,000 served with honour in HM Forces. A lot of the redcoats were Americans themselves - and particularly Southerners as they were conservative. Benedict Arnold was an exception - the British didn't like him because of his weak character.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2004, 01:51:44 PM »
*Many people don't realize the war was a civil war. Many Americans were loyal Britons - 8,000 served with honour in HM Forces

So true, Serge! They were called UEL (United Empire Loyalists) and many of them moved to the Maritime Provinces of Canada rather than accept the rejection of their Sovereign after the defeat of the British in the American Revolution.

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2004, 02:12:05 PM »
good riddance.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2004, 02:45:04 PM »
In fact I can think of a few more I would like to go up to the People's Republic of Canada.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2004, 02:54:11 PM »
no offense intended to the good canadians here.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2004, 05:28:09 PM »
as an update to that "christians seek to form new nation" story: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38679

You ready to move JAC?  I know I am.....

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Offline Columcille

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2004, 04:58:40 PM »
I truly support any State's right to secession.  I don't believe that the feds will ever allow this to happen, for the same reason that the South was not allowed to seceed - loss of tax revenue.  Like it or not the REAL reason for Lincoln's war was to prevent the loss of tax revenue from the South (read "When in the Course of Human Events" by Charles Adams).

On the other hand  ;), I wouldn't mind returning the family to the ancestral manse in Honea Path, SC.  However, if the Secesh gov't is controlled by Teetotaller/prohibition Prots, and I won't be able to get my McTarnahan's Scottish Style Ale,  I think we'll just stay here in Texas!

« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 05:42:08 PM by Columcille »
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Offline Oblio

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2004, 05:06:56 PM »
Quote
However, if the Secesh gov't is controlled by Teetotaller/prohibition Prots, and I won't be able to get my McTarnahan's Scottish Style Ale,  I think we'll just stay here in Texas!

What !  You mean it won't be controlled by Orthodox ??  I was looking forward to being able to buy wine on Sundays rather than having to stock up on the way home from Vespers.

Offline Columcille

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2004, 05:16:22 PM »
Hah!!!

Sacrifices will have to be made!!
"The way of God is a daily cross.  No one has ascended into heaven through an easy life."  St. Isaac of Syria

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2004, 07:27:49 PM »
lol!

Excellent points btw Columcille.

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Offline Seraphim Reeves

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2004, 07:48:34 PM »
Ahem, I thought Orthodoxy in principle was most congenial to the rule of sacral monarchs..."King of kings" after all...ahem.

Seraphim - A non-seditious, Canadian citizen. :)

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2004, 08:19:00 PM »
shush Seraphim.   We don't want ByzPrince catching wind of this thread.  ;)

I agree. I wish we could have a good true monarch.  But right now our only options are heretics and pagans of various stripes.  Would that the Holy Tsar would be restored.

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Offline Columcille

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2004, 10:20:02 PM »
Tsar of South Carolina?

Hmmmmm . . . . .

It just might work!   :D
« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 10:21:34 PM by Columcille »
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2004, 11:32:35 PM »
it just might at that!

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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2004, 03:23:09 AM »
How about Tsar of Possum Kingdom, Sugar Tit and All The Carolinas?  

P.S.  I live in South Carolina and Possum Kingdom and Sugar Tit are real places.

Offline Columcille

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2004, 07:37:59 AM »
Now we're getting somewhere!!

Tsar of Possum Kingdom, Sugar Tit and All The Carolinas.

I can see Southroners converting by the millions!!!
"The way of God is a daily cross.  No one has ascended into heaven through an easy life."  St. Isaac of Syria

Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2004, 08:34:59 AM »
   To convert millions of Southrons, the E.O. Church must...

1. Transform Dixie into a sacred chant

2. Make hush puppies an optional use for Holy Communion

  There are others, but I can't think of 'em!


        --Ben, SCV member and one of the Yankee Diaspora in North Carolina
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2004, 10:30:45 AM »
Personally as a lifelong Southron, and a member of both the SCV and the LoS as well as other heritage organizations, and as a man who has both Confederate and Tsarist Russian flags hanging proudly on his walls, I see a great opportunity in the south for a valid inculturation.

Unfortunatly this has not yet happened for two reasons:

1.  Lack of interest for such
2.  Concern for holding on to one's Ethnic distinction

Think about this, how big a percentage of the active posters (lets take the top 30 for instance) are Southrons?  How many of these are converts?  How many missions made up exclusivly or at least containing 50% or more converts exist in the South?  How many monastaries exist in the south? there are other questions one could ask as well.  

Of course one might also ask, whyare there no Southron Saints?  but as Orthodoxy is a fairly recent addition to the Contiguous States and even more so to the South, one could say that this is the reason there are not yet any saints.  

All talk of Secession, Heritage, etc. aside, from my perspective at least the South seems more open to the traditional Orthodox worldview than other cultures.

Joe Zollars
These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.