Author Topic: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?  (Read 161388 times)

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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #945 on: December 08, 2012, 12:31:38 PM »
I gave up on this thread when I figured out that the PMS-is-OK crowd is not interested in any evidence that does not conform to their pre-conceptions...
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Offline Incognito777

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #946 on: October 05, 2014, 04:24:02 AM »
I would say the tradition he follows is not truly Orthodox (in that it doesn't stem from teachings of the Apostles or of the Fathers).  It is a man-made invention, the same types of "traditions of men" the Pharisees piled onto the shoulders of their followers."

The Orthodox view of sex is not biblical. It comes from Gnosticism and Augustine.


I know of no other church closer to the doctrines that I find in Scripture other than the orthodox church, so I suppose I will continue to attend orthodox churches. 

I would say Orthodoxy is more unbiblical than Protestantism. The office of Apostle was the highest conferred by Christ. Yet there is not a scrap of evidence that they were ever referred to as "Father," or had their hand kissed by fellow human beings. I would argue that the apostles would be appalled at such a thing. They viewed themselves as servants of the people, not masters and overlords of the people. The title "His All Holiness," (as applied to a Patriarch) is also unbiblical. None of the apostles ever used such a title. In their mind, only God is all holy. Applying this term to a mere man is idolatrous, unbiblical and blasphemous. Also, there is no evidence that the apostles or their successors had their hand kissed by other people. My philosophy is: if the apostles didn't do it, we shouldn't either. I don't think it is spiritually healthy for a priest to have his hand constantly kissed by people. I think it can lead to narcissism.

I am Orthodox, but I believe there are a lot of unbiblical and unwarranted traditions that crept in and remained unchecked in an uncritical age and by an illiterate people. Most people did not even have access to Holy Scripture.

Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #947 on: June 17, 2016, 08:39:35 AM »
Wow!  Resurrection of threads AND cloning of posts!  This is amazing!
Resurrection and recapitulation on oc.net who would have thunk it?  ;)

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Offline BrotherBoris

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #948 on: June 17, 2016, 09:34:43 AM »
I would say the tradition he follows is not truly Orthodox (in that it doesn't stem from teachings of the Apostles or of the Fathers).  It is a man-made invention, the same types of "traditions of men" the Pharisees piled onto the shoulders of their followers."

The Orthodox view of sex is not biblical. It comes from Gnosticism and Augustine.


I know of no other church closer to the doctrines that I find in Scripture other than the orthodox church, so I suppose I will continue to attend orthodox churches. 

I would say Orthodoxy is more unbiblical than Protestantism. The office of Apostle was the highest conferred by Christ. Yet there is not a scrap of evidence that they were ever referred to as "Father," or had their hand kissed by fellow human beings. I would argue that the apostles would be appalled at such a thing. They viewed themselves as servants of the people, not masters and overlords of the people. The title "His All Holiness," (as applied to a Patriarch) is also unbiblical. None of the apostles ever used such a title. In their mind, only God is all holy. Applying this term to a mere man is idolatrous, unbiblical and blasphemous. Also, there is no evidence that the apostles or their successors had their hand kissed by other people. My philosophy is: if the apostles didn't do it, we shouldn't either. I don't think it is spiritually healthy for a priest to have his hand constantly kissed by people. I think it can lead to narcissism.

I am Orthodox, but I believe there are a lot of unbiblical and unwarranted traditions that crept in and remained unchecked in an uncritical age and by an illiterate people. Most people did not even have access to Holy Scripture.

Relax about the hand kissing!  I never have understood why that offends so many Americans.  I have the suspicion that the real reason many Americans don't like it is that they bristle at the idea of spiritual hierarchy and giving honor to those to whom honor is due.   This is one spot where our egalitarian American culture really clashes with Orthodoxy.  Just learn to be humble and accept the ways and customs of the Church, including honoring your priest or bishop by kissing his hand.  It is a beautiful custom and the very Scriptures themselves tell us to "greet one another with a holy kiss."  Notice it does not say "holy handshake." 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:35:11 AM by BrotherBoris »

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #949 on: June 17, 2016, 09:41:12 AM »
I would say the tradition he follows is not truly Orthodox (in that it doesn't stem from teachings of the Apostles or of the Fathers).  It is a man-made invention, the same types of "traditions of men" the Pharisees piled onto the shoulders of their followers."

The Orthodox view of sex is not biblical. It comes from Gnosticism and Augustine.


I know of no other church closer to the doctrines that I find in Scripture other than the orthodox church, so I suppose I will continue to attend orthodox churches. 

I would say Orthodoxy is more unbiblical than Protestantism. The office of Apostle was the highest conferred by Christ. Yet there is not a scrap of evidence that they were ever referred to as "Father," or had their hand kissed by fellow human beings. I would argue that the apostles would be appalled at such a thing. They viewed themselves as servants of the people, not masters and overlords of the people. The title "His All Holiness," (as applied to a Patriarch) is also unbiblical. None of the apostles ever used such a title. In their mind, only God is all holy. Applying this term to a mere man is idolatrous, unbiblical and blasphemous. Also, there is no evidence that the apostles or their successors had their hand kissed by other people. My philosophy is: if the apostles didn't do it, we shouldn't either. I don't think it is spiritually healthy for a priest to have his hand constantly kissed by people. I think it can lead to narcissism.

I am Orthodox, but I believe there are a lot of unbiblical and unwarranted traditions that crept in and remained unchecked in an uncritical age and by an illiterate people. Most people did not even have access to Holy Scripture.

Relax about the hand kissing!  I never have understood why that offends so many Americans.  I have the suspicion that the real reason many Americans don't like it is that they bristle at the idea of spiritual hierarchy and giving honor to those to whom honor is due.   This is one spot where our egalitarian American culture really clashes with Orthodoxy.  Just learn to be humble and accept the ways and customs of the Church, including honoring your priest or bishop by kissing his hand.  It is a beautiful custom and the very Scriptures themselves tell us to "greet one another with a holy kiss."  Notice it does not say "holy handshake."


You do realise you just answered a post from 2014....right? 
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Offline BrotherBoris

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #950 on: June 17, 2016, 10:16:16 AM »
So what?

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #951 on: June 17, 2016, 01:23:00 PM »
Hand kissing never bothered me as an Orthodox catechumen.   Now, the whole thing of demanding that somebody have a "spiritual father", on the other hand, so popular among the hyperdox... IS creepy.

It's hard for me to see pre-marital sex as the end of the world, nor does it necessarily detract from having a happy marriage.  But I'm not exactly cool with this idea that you "try out" a potential spouse (or two, or three).  It suggests too mechanistic a view of sexuality, one that isn't even remotely healthy in the long term (what are you going to do when you get old and stuff doesn't work quite right?). 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:29:29 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #952 on: June 17, 2016, 01:35:49 PM »
Did it creep you out in school to have a teacher?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #953 on: June 17, 2016, 01:54:43 PM »
From what I've seen, some people want a "spiritual father" to micromanage their lives and tell them what books they're allowed to read, what their hobbies should be, whom they should befriend or marry, etc. Essentially, a Christian guru. Which is kind of creepy.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #954 on: June 17, 2016, 02:27:41 PM »
From what I've seen, some people want a "spiritual father" to micromanage their lives and tell them what books they're allowed to read, what their hobbies should be, whom they should befriend or marry, etc. Essentially, a Christian guru. Which is kind of creepy.
I see what you mean, this is weird, but I think it's the healthy tradition to have a relationship with your confessor beyond the confessional "pulpit" (I don't know how it's called in English).
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #955 on: June 17, 2016, 02:56:31 PM »
It's hard for me to see pre-marital sex as the end of the world, nor does it necessarily detract from having a happy marriage. 

Look, I met people who had premarital sex.  They're very loving and kind, and really more Christ-like than others...


....

... ;)
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #956 on: June 17, 2016, 03:44:26 PM »
I've also met murderers who are very kind and much more honorable than most people. That being said, murder is still wrong. The same principle applies to pre-marital sex, despite it being a far less grave sin.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #957 on: June 17, 2016, 03:46:32 PM »
From what I've seen, some people want a "spiritual father" to micromanage their lives and tell them what books they're allowed to read, what their hobbies should be, whom they should befriend or marry, etc. Essentially, a Christian guru. Which is kind of creepy.

That sound robot-like, creepy.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #958 on: June 17, 2016, 11:14:08 PM »
Personally, I can't see much problem in having pre-marital sex by itself. However, we gladly aren't moral slaves of our opinions as soon as we find Orthodoxy, and Christ and his Church frown upon it, so it must be bigger than our own impressions and we must humble ourselves into accepting something bigger. That's the way I see it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 11:14:59 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #959 on: June 18, 2016, 12:53:55 AM »
I've also met murderers who are very kind and much more honorable than most people. That being said, murder is still wrong. The same principle applies to pre-marital sex, despite it being a far less grave sin.

That message was not for you.  It was a rhetorical device.
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Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #960 on: June 18, 2016, 09:07:37 AM »
Ok I know you will all shoot me for saying this but when I was complaining to my Orthodox father confessor that I m in relationship with my boyfriend and I know premarital sex is a big sin but it's difficult for us to abstain he said'Jesus only talked about monogamy'.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 09:09:51 AM by Seekingtrue »

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #961 on: June 18, 2016, 09:35:26 AM »
So what?

In the USA, we don't honor people with hand-kissing.  Also, there are lots of germaphobes here.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #962 on: June 18, 2016, 10:03:54 AM »
So what?

In the USA, we don't honor people with hand-kissing.  Also, there are lots of germaphobes here.

Hand kissing of priest is also receiving grace.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #963 on: June 18, 2016, 10:55:05 AM »
Ok I know you will all shoot me for saying this but when I was complaining to my Orthodox father confessor that I m in relationship with my boyfriend and I know premarital sex is a big sin but it's difficult for us to abstain he said'Jesus only talked about monogamy'.

Why did you think we'd shoot you for this? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #964 on: June 18, 2016, 11:31:01 AM »
I've also met murderers who are very kind and much more honorable than most people. That being said, murder is still wrong. The same principle applies to pre-marital sex, despite it being a far less grave sin.

That message was not for you.  It was a rhetorical device.

I wasn't really replying to you. Sorry for the confusion. I was just replying to the general outcry that just because it might have less consequences today due to birth control and that it seems harmless, it in no way detracts from the fact that God forbids it. By no means is it the end of the world, but it is still something God forbids. Sure people now get married at much later ages than they did one or two centuries ago, so it is much more difficult. But that's the price of modernity, at least how I see it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 11:32:26 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #965 on: June 20, 2016, 12:59:08 AM »
I've also met murderers who are very kind and much more honorable than most people. That being said, murder is still wrong. The same principle applies to pre-marital sex, despite it being a far less grave sin.

That message was not for you.  It was a rhetorical device.

I wasn't really replying to you. Sorry for the confusion. I was just replying to the general outcry that just because it might have less consequences today due to birth control and that it seems harmless, it in no way detracts from the fact that God forbids it. By no means is it the end of the world, but it is still something God forbids. Sure people now get married at much later ages than they did one or two centuries ago, so it is much more difficult. But that's the price of modernity, at least how I see it.

I don't disagree.  I was simply writing what I wrote in trying to connect with a particular poster who uses this line of argumentation in another thread that is somewhat off topic from this one.  :)
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #966 on: October 05, 2017, 03:41:18 AM »
Every sexual act requires both to be in holy union, everything outside this union is fornication -> mortal sin 100%. Even we are forbidden to pray for that kind of sins.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 03:41:30 AM by Indocern »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #967 on: October 05, 2017, 05:24:16 AM »
Are we really forbidden to pray for someone who has fallen into any sort of sin, no matter how terrible? Christ certainly spent/spends His time and energy healing sinners of all kinds who repent, so why shouldn't we pray that someone caught in the grips of sin find release from it?

Offline Indocern

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #968 on: October 05, 2017, 05:32:47 AM »
Well, this is said by st. John

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:33:06 AM by Indocern »

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #969 on: October 05, 2017, 05:43:02 AM »
Well, this is said by st. John

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

So, somebody who has sex before marriage is completely irredeemable and beyond the power of Christ for you? How depressing.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?
« Reply #970 on: October 05, 2017, 06:18:40 AM »
To me all people are same. I just try to give some info on the sins based on the Bible.