dzheremi: This podcast has some interesting contributions to this general topic from Fr. Hans Jacobse (Antiochian Orthodox), founder of the "Orthodoxy Today" website.
that was really uninteresting by the end. to be honest.
but it did have some good quotes. like this one
abortions will stop when women stop aborting their children
he did, very briefly, touch on premarital sex
Ive done a lot of retreats [...]teaching [...] "don't sleep with your girl friend" [...]
however, despite stating his views, he does not explain them. so is really no better that if any of you just said "don't have premarital sex" without giving an explanation.
there was one quote that really stood out for me:
the truth is self verifying. what I mean by that is: the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model of what the truth should be.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ.
the was I read this is:
the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model given out by the church.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ. as written in the bible.
OK, so this does seem a little bias of an interpretation. and I'm sure you will say something along the lines of "the apostle's teaching are as accurate as the bible. and because the Orthodox Church follows their teachings precisely
over the last 1000 years then the teachings of the church are true because they come, indirectly, from Jesus Christ himself"
despite all that. I'm just stating how I read the quote.
Pikhristos Aftonf: AW EM GEE what the Orthodox church calls tradition, MUST BE the teaching of Christ that weren't mentioned in the bible!!!
And the teachings of the Pope, who has dedicated his entire life to the teachings of Christianity, and who is the head Bishop of the entire Roman Catholic Denomination, MUST BE the teachings of Christ. as given to him through direct revelation. I mean, why not? it makes as much sense as your logic.
I care not for traditions. or your flawed logic.
Pikhristos Aftonf: by your logic, if the bible does not specifically and explicitly state that rape is a sin, does that mean that it is not?
actually it DOES state rape is a sin. on multiple occasions. in multiple contexts. and goes into great detail on the punishments for rape.
one would think that with all that attention to rape, there would at least be one definable account of premarital sex.
akimori makoto: I am not an expert on such matters, I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament. and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.Artificial
: This originally meant ‘full of artistic or technical skill’. Now its meaning has a very different slant.Manufacture
: From the Latin meaning ‘to make by hand’ this originally signified things that were created by craftsmen. Now the opposite, made by machines, is its meaning.Awful
: This meant ‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing. However, over time it has evolved to mean exactly the opposite.
I'm sure your intelligent enough to see where my rebuttal is going.
Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally.
we have already established that my knowledge of church history is limited.
I thought most of the books of the Bible where rediscovered hundreds of years after Jesus died. such as the dead sea scrolls.
how does this fact fit in with the early church fathers who knew the apostles personally?
Pikhristos Aftonf: does a question need to be justified and elaborated upon, i am interested to know the reasons you hold the doctrine of the trinity as faith, even though the old testament opposes it! also the new testament does not specifically read, "God exists in three Hypostasis of one essence.
if you can believe in the trinity just because the interpretations of the fathers led to it, then surely you can believe that premarital sex is a sin for the same reason.
I did not ask for it to be justified, only elaborated on. (although I commonly ask you to justify opinions). and yes, to prevent confusion it is best if lesser understood questions get elaborated on.
back to justifying opinions: what makes you say I "hold the doctrine of the trinity as faith"?
I assume if is because I used the trinity to denounce the he/she bible a few posts ago. that does not mean I believe in it. I have also used the Roman Catholic Church in a few examples (much to the dislike of Orthodox Christians).
do I believe God exists. yes
do I believe Jesus existed. yes
do I believe the holy spirit exists. yes. although I am a little unsure on its nature.
do I believe the the three are all just different facets of the same being, ie God. no
Jesus has shown his independence to god several times. if he and God where truly one and the same then doing things like preforming his first miracle even thou his "time has not yet come", such things just would not occur.
primuspilus: My question is that the Scriptures state alot about "sexual immorality" so therefore JSG, what would you constitute this to mean? (genuine question)
and my genuine answer: morality implies a knowledge of right and wrong.
to have sex, even premarital sex, definable feels
right. but to actually know
right and wrong, for me at least, requires the sort of defineable proof I seek from this thread.
Jason.Wike: The website is the web version of an actual book
written by actual people, with actual view points, that are based on actual reasons.
such reasons are what I am after. not the literature that comes as a result of them.
genesisone: You must have plenty of examples in mind where premarital sex is encouraged or shown to be helpful and beneficial to all concerned.
Um... no. none that come to mind.
but I do remember 2 or 3 passages where premarital sex is discouraged
, and thats just what has shown up on this thread.
here is another quote that has shown up on this thread:
just_some_guy: my question is whether or not it is sinful for premarital sex. it is NOT whether or not is a good idea.