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Author Topic: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?  (Read 51512 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #630 on: November 04, 2011, 11:53:57 AM »

My question is that the Scriptures state alot about "sexual immorality" so therefore JSG, what would you constitute this to mean? (genuine question)



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« Reply #631 on: November 04, 2011, 05:32:31 PM »

does a question need to be justified and elaborated upon, i am interested to know the reasons you hold the doctrine of the trinity as faith, even though the old testament opposes it! also the new testament does not specifically read, "God exists in three Hypostasis of one essence.
if you can believe in the trinity just because the interpretations of the fathers led to it, then surely you can believe that premarital sex is a sin for the same reason.
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« Reply #632 on: November 04, 2011, 06:47:59 PM »

Quote
ori makoto: I wonder if all those Greek people, the vast majority of whom are Orthodox Christians, would know?
Greek speaking people knowing the meaning of Greek words. sounds logical.
however, as an english speaker, I still need to refer to a dictionary to understand the use of a word. what Im saying is, are "all those Greek people" we are talking about linguist ? Im sure some of them are. so what evidence/ logical reasoning do they use to come about such a deffinition?
or better yet, what evidence/ logical reasoning do You use to define the word as such? (and PLEASE don't just say 'because the church says so' because that gets us nowhere)

Thank you for taking my post in the right spirit.

I am not an expert on such matters, I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.

Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally. Often, if it is difficult to tell what the apostles meant in the new testament, any ambiguity can be resolved by consulting the apostolic fathers.
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« Reply #633 on: November 05, 2011, 08:04:19 PM »

following from AM's post, the Apostles themselves expanded on what they wrote in the Gospels and the New Testament as a whole.
Quote
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

does the above mean that Christ taught and performed miracles that weren't in the bible [tick]
does that mean that sola scripture is a faulty method of dealing with the christian faith   [tick]
does that mean that these miracles and lessons are lost to history                               [cross]
AW EM GEE what the Orthodox church calls tradition, MUST BE the teaching of Christ that weren't mentioned in the bible!!!
the bible is the STORY OF SALVATION, not "the list of things that christians can and can't do to inherit the kingdom of heaven".
thus, you can't expect the bible to explicitly outline this, when that is not what its intended message is.
by your logic, if the bible does not specifically and explicitly state that rape is a sin, does that mean that it is not? your logic is not flawed, flawed would be praising it, your logic is abominable. surely the teaching of the church step in where the Bible stops as a guideline on how to live our lives in the image of Christ, through the examples of saints and apostles.
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« Reply #634 on: November 05, 2011, 09:02:25 PM »

This podcast has some interesting contributions to this general topic from Fr. Hans Jacobse (Antiochian Orthodox), founder of the "Orthodoxy Today" website. I like his focus on the anthropological side of Christian morality, since so many people (like the OP, from how I see it) are very much locked into this way of seeing the world, and answers that don't look right from that viewpoint are automatically discounted.

With that in mind, I think the OP could stand to think a little about what it means to be a human being, and indeed, a child of God. Heck, we all could.
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« Reply #635 on: November 07, 2011, 08:25:00 AM »

Quote
dzheremi: This podcast has some interesting contributions to this general topic from Fr. Hans Jacobse (Antiochian Orthodox), founder of the "Orthodoxy Today" website.
that was really uninteresting by the end. to be honest.
but it did have some good quotes. like this one  Wink
Quote
abortions will stop when women stop aborting their children

he did, very briefly, touch on premarital sex
Quote
Ive done a lot of retreats [...]teaching [...] "don't sleep with your girl friend" [...]
however, despite stating his views, he does not explain them. so is really no better that if any of you just said "don't have premarital sex" without giving an explanation.

there was one quote that really stood out for me:
Quote
the truth is self verifying. what I mean by that is: the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model of what the truth should be.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ.
the was I read this is:
the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model given out by the church.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ. as written in the bible.

OK, so this does seem a little bias of an interpretation. and I'm sure you will say something along the lines of "the apostle's teaching are as accurate as the bible. and because the Orthodox Church follows their teachings precisely over the last 1000 years then the teachings of the church are true because they come, indirectly, from Jesus Christ himself"
despite all that. I'm just stating how I read the quote.







Quote
Pikhristos Aftonf: AW EM GEE what the Orthodox church calls tradition, MUST BE the teaching of Christ that weren't mentioned in the bible!!!
And the teachings of the Pope, who has dedicated his entire life to the teachings of Christianity, and who is the head Bishop of the entire Roman Catholic Denomination, MUST BE the teachings of Christ. as given to him through direct revelation. I mean, why not? it makes as much sense as your logic.
I care not for traditions. or your flawed logic.

Quote
Pikhristos Aftonf: by your logic, if the bible does not specifically and explicitly state that rape is a sin, does that mean that it is not?
actually it DOES state rape is a sin. on multiple occasions. in multiple contexts. and goes into great detail on the punishments for rape.
one would think that with all that attention to rape, there would at least be one definable account of premarital sex.





Quote
akimori makoto: I am not an expert on such matters, I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament. and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.
Artificial: This originally meant ‘full of artistic or technical skill’. Now its meaning has a very different slant.
Manufacture: From the Latin meaning ‘to make by hand’ this originally signified things that were created by craftsmen. Now the opposite, made by machines, is its meaning.
Awful: This meant ‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing. However, over time it has evolved to mean exactly the opposite.
I'm sure your intelligent enough to see where my rebuttal is going.

Quote
Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally.
we have already established that my knowledge of church history is limited.
I thought most of the books of the Bible where rediscovered hundreds of years after Jesus died. such as the dead sea scrolls.
how does this fact fit in with the early church fathers who knew the apostles personally?



Quote
Pikhristos Aftonf: does a question need to be justified and elaborated upon, i am interested to know the reasons you hold the doctrine of the trinity as faith, even though the old testament opposes it! also the new testament does not specifically read, "God exists in three Hypostasis of one essence.
if you can believe in the trinity just because the interpretations of the fathers led to it, then surely you can believe that premarital sex is a sin for the same reason.
I did not ask for it to be justified, only elaborated on. (although I commonly ask you to justify opinions). and yes, to prevent confusion it is best if lesser understood questions get elaborated on.

back to justifying opinions: what makes you say I "hold the doctrine of the trinity as faith"?
I assume if is because I used the trinity to denounce the he/she bible a few posts ago. that does not mean I believe in it. I have also used the Roman Catholic Church in a few examples (much to the dislike of Orthodox Christians).

do I believe God exists. yes
do I believe Jesus existed. yes
do I believe the holy spirit exists. yes. although I am a little unsure on its nature.
do I believe the the three are all just different facets of the same being, ie God. no
Jesus has shown his independence to god several times. if he and God where truly one and the same then doing things like preforming his first miracle even thou his "time has not yet come", such things just would not occur.




Quote
primuspilus: My question is that the Scriptures state alot about "sexual immorality" so therefore JSG, what would you constitute this to mean? (genuine question)
and my genuine answer: morality implies a knowledge of right and wrong.
to have sex, even premarital sex, definable feels right. but to actually know right and wrong, for me at least, requires the sort of defineable proof I seek from this thread.



Quote
Jason.Wike: The website is the web version of an actual book
written by actual people, with actual view points, that are based on actual reasons.
such reasons are what I am after. not the literature that comes as a result of them.



Quote
genesisone: You must have plenty of examples in mind where premarital sex is encouraged or shown to be helpful and beneficial to all concerned.
Um... no. none that come to mind.
but I do remember 2 or 3 passages where premarital sex is discouraged, and thats just what has shown up on this thread.
here is another quote that has shown up on this thread:
Quote
just_some_guy: my question is whether or not it is sinful for premarital sex. it is NOT whether or not is a good idea.
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« Reply #636 on: November 07, 2011, 09:38:54 AM »

Quote from: just_some_guy
I care not for traditions. or your flawed logic.

Then why are you here?
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« Reply #637 on: November 07, 2011, 10:34:17 AM »

OK, so this does seem a little bias of an interpretation. and I'm sure you will say something along the lines of "the apostle's teaching are as accurate as the bible. and because the Orthodox Church follows their teachings precisely over the last 1000 years then the teachings of the church are true because they come, indirectly, from Jesus Christ himself"
despite all that. I'm just stating how I read the quote.

Almost 2000 years.

Quote
we have already established that my knowledge of church history is limited.

No one doubts that.

Quote
I thought most of the books of the Bible where rediscovered hundreds of years after Jesus died. such as the dead sea scrolls.
how does this fact fit in with the early church fathers who knew the apostles personally?

It doesn't fit because it is not the fact. Bible wasn't miraculously discovered in 1950s. It had existed before. Most of the Dead Sea scrolls contain the Old Testament books (of the Bible, not the Protestant crib).
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« Reply #638 on: November 07, 2011, 12:02:40 PM »

I don't know if this has been asked yet or not, but... Is it premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married?  Grin
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« Reply #639 on: November 07, 2011, 12:27:55 PM »

I don't know if this has been asked yet or not, but... Is it premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married?  Grin

good question! Grin

when one comes to the Orthodox Church all one hears about  aspires to is marriage, the marriage of man and woman , the marriage of the Israel and God, the Marriage of Christ and His Church, the marriage of the monastic to Christ, the marriage of the Soul and her Creator,( I am being redundant for a purpose here) boy from beginning to the end its all about Holy Union and a marital union at that! so my understanding is if it is a holy union it is marriage.  Wink so this premarital sex thing goes in the bin that is labled as ' you missed the mark'. OFC this is meaningles to the OP, but I am just saying.. angel
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« Reply #640 on: November 07, 2011, 01:02:32 PM »

that was really uninteresting by the end. to be honest.

Noted. Learning about the Orthodox mindset is boring. No wonder you're such a smash hit around here.

Quote
he did, very briefly, touch on premarital sex
Quote
Ive done a lot of retreats [...]teaching [...] "don't sleep with your girl friend" [...]
however, despite stating his views, he does not explain them. so is really no better that if any of you just said "don't have premarital sex" without giving an explanation.

I think you may have missed the point of that part of the podcast. The point is that it is really less about empty (content-less) moralizing, and more about what it means to be a child of God. As I am sure you would agree, Fr. Jacobse believes that it is not enough to simply tell young people "don't have sex with your girlfriend" (as he states, "they've heard it so much they don't hear it anymore"), but that to show them why you must show them what they're meant to be - how they're meant to live. Forgive me, but it seems from everything you've written in this thread that you have no idea what that is. By reducing the Bible (or any aspect of Christianity) to a simple code of behavior ("do this, don't do this"), you end up missing the bigger picture of who we are meant to be. I'm pretty sure that was in the podcast, too, and it's a real shame you missed it.

Quote
there was one quote that really stood out for me:
Quote
the truth is self verifying. what I mean by that is: the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model of what the truth should be.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ.
the was I read this is:
the truth is true, not because it conforms to some model given out by the church.
the truth is true, because it comes from him that is true. who is Jesus Christ. as written in the bible.

I don't disagree with that, in that what is written about Jesus Christ in the Bible is true, but I think that's a pretty self-serving manipulation of the quote given the context in which you are using the Bible to justify your wrong decision-making. Also, Fr. Jacobse did not say "as written in the Bible".

Quote
OK, so this does seem a little bias of an interpretation.


I'd say that adding something to the quote that wasn't originally there purely to support your position is more than just a little biased. You must come from the Martin Luther school of Biblical interpretation.
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« Reply #641 on: November 07, 2011, 01:44:29 PM »

do I believe God exists. yes
do I believe Jesus existed. yes
do I believe the holy spirit exists. yes. although I am a little unsure on its nature.
do I believe the the three are all just different facets of the same being, ie God. no
Jesus has shown his independence to god several times. if he and God where truly one and the same then doing things like preforming his first miracle even thou his "time has not yet come", such things just would not occur.
You seem to think we hold to some modalist view of God. Why would we do this if we have condemned modalism as a heresy? We don't believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all just different facets of God. We believe that the three distinct persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. BTW, we believe that Jesus IS the Son and that Jesus still lives today.
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« Reply #642 on: November 07, 2011, 07:22:01 PM »

I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.

Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally.

This coud have been easily said to Jesus by the learned Hebrew scholars when he confronted them at 12 explaining the torah and indeed later as an adult. An equally young  (though not blonde and blue eyed -- what that has to do with anything idk), who had only been born in the last minute comparatively.

Do the Gentile early Christians have more weight than the Jewish born early Christians when it comes to understanding of the scriptures?
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« Reply #643 on: November 07, 2011, 09:16:45 PM »

I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.

Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally.
This coud have been easily said to Jesus by the learned Hebrew scholars when he confronted them at 12 explaining the torah and indeed later as an adult. An equally young  (though not blonde and blue eyed -- what that has to do with anything idk), who had only been born in the last minute comparatively.

Do the Gentile early Christians have more weight than the Jewish born early Christians when it comes to understanding of the scriptures?

Was Jesus ever corrected for having a misunderstanding of human sexuality and it's place in marriage?
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« Reply #644 on: November 07, 2011, 10:11:21 PM »

I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.

Are you familiar with the "apostolic fathers"? They are the early church leaders who wrote immediately following the writing of the new testament. Many of them knew the apostles personally.

This coud have been easily said to Jesus by the learned Hebrew scholars when he confronted them at 12 explaining the torah and indeed later as an adult. An equally young  (though not blonde and blue eyed -- what that has to do with anything idk), who had only been born in the last minute comparatively.

Do the Gentile early Christians have more weight than the Jewish born early Christians when it comes to understanding of the scriptures?

I think you have a good global point here, but I only meant for my "argument" (it is more of a feeling) to be applied to matters of pure linguistics.

My presumption (rebuttable on strong enough evidence) is that those of a Greek-speaking patrimony more properly understand the meaning of particular Greek words used in the new testament, especially where their interpretation is witnessed to by centuries of conformity across many places. So, my starting point is that the pre-Nicene and later fathers probably well-understood what the apostles meant by the word "porneia" when they wrote it.

Re my blonde and blue-eyed comment: we Greeks/Romans/Hellenes/Byzantines/&c. tire of being told how wrong our pronunciation of our own language is, how little our language resembles that of the ancients, how we aren't even really Greeks/Romans/Hellenes/Byzantines/&c. because our skin is too dark and our eyebrows too fuzzy. I will confess I have a bias against anglophone and continental scholars who think they have arrived at a superior, purer understanding of the ancients and the apostles than that of our God-bearing fathers.
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« Reply #645 on: November 07, 2011, 10:14:59 PM »

Quote
akimori makoto: I am not an expert on such matters, I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament. and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.
Artificial: This originally meant ‘full of artistic or technical skill’. Now its meaning has a very different slant.
Manufacture: From the Latin meaning ‘to make by hand’ this originally signified things that were created by craftsmen. Now the opposite, made by machines, is its meaning.
Awful: This meant ‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing. However, over time it has evolved to mean exactly the opposite.
I'm sure your intelligent enough to see where my rebuttal is going.
[/quote]

I do, indeed, see where you are going with this, and I generally think you have a point. You will find, however, that all the evidence points to the fact that the earliest Christians who wrote anything down understood "porneia" to include extra-marital sex.

Now, I agree that this particular facet of Christian morality is quite burdensome in the modern age, given the unnatural delay of marriage which has become the norm. I do not believe, however, that the proper remedy is to reinterpret the Scriptures in a way that is totally unfaithful to their authors and those who learnt the faith from them.
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« Reply #646 on: November 08, 2011, 01:31:15 AM »

Quote
akimori makoto: I am not an expert on such matters, I just find it a bit difficult to believe that the Greeks who have gone before us for centuries all somehow misunderstood what the word porneia meant at the time of the writing of the new testament. and some blonde and blue eyed scholars born in the last five minutes are able to somehow divine its true meaning.
Artificial: This originally meant ‘full of artistic or technical skill’. Now its meaning has a very different slant.
Manufacture: From the Latin meaning ‘to make by hand’ this originally signified things that were created by craftsmen. Now the opposite, made by machines, is its meaning.
Awful: This meant ‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing. However, over time it has evolved to mean exactly the opposite.
I'm sure your intelligent enough to see where my rebuttal is going.

Yes, so then the Greek speakers were too stupid and simple to realize that words might change in meaning over the centuries? Any English speaker worth his salt would know that the three examples you provided originally meant something else because of other words with similar stems but divergent meanings. For example, with artificial, we have the word artifice, which preserves the original association with artistry and cleverness. Similarly, we have an entire host of words related to manufacture, the best example probably being manual, which means simply, "done with the hands." For awful, we have the word awesome, which has retained the original association with the word awe that the word awful in modern English parlance has lost. I think that to assume that the Greek speaking world has, for over a millennium, been too benighted to figure out whether porneia had undergone some sort of semantic change since the time of the Gospels is a rather untenable position.
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« Reply #647 on: November 08, 2011, 02:51:00 AM »

Old Testament wasn't specifically against premarital sex and had some pretty patriarchal and polygamic laws, but the New Testament is different.

The word "Porneia" means "Sexual Immorality", which Paul clearly calls any sex outside of marriage. It has much wider meaning than fornication though. Christ mostly talked about adultery(cheating spouse), because premarital sex wasn't that common in Jewish society.

Today in Europe, North and South America - very few people follow this commandment, and whoever doesn't follow it, I consider Non-Christians. That was reason I left Christianity myself, because saw most of Christians as false Christians, not only advocating premarital sex, but even mocking the chaste men. I blamed Church for half of it, because it very tolerant in this issue and never publicly condemns it. There are other sins to count, and I am generally Pelagian in thoughts.


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« Reply #648 on: November 08, 2011, 07:57:46 AM »


That was reason I left Christianity myself, because saw most of Christians as false Christians,


How is this a legitimate reason to leave Christianity? How do part-time 'christians' invalidate the religion itself?
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« Reply #649 on: November 08, 2011, 11:01:34 AM »


That was reason I left Christianity myself, because saw most of Christians as false Christians,


How is this a legitimate reason to leave Christianity? How do part-time 'christians' invalidate the religion itself?

Because Church wasn't saying anything against them. They are still proud to have 83% of population Orthodox Christian, when real number is 1-2%... I have never heard an address of the Church about these issues, they tend to live peacefully and just want people to come to church whatever their morality or knowledge may be.

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« Reply #650 on: November 08, 2011, 11:24:23 AM »

That was reason I left Christianity myself, because saw most of Christians as false Christians

Just because folks dont take Christ seriously does not mean Christ is a lie.

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« Reply #651 on: November 08, 2011, 12:25:48 PM »

Quote from: Virtus_lb
I blamed Church for half of it, because it very tolerant in this issue and never publicly condemns it. There are other sins to count, and I am generally Pelagian in thoughts.

What? You mean to tell me you have never heard a sermon or read an article which condemns premarital sex? I don't believe that. Either you don't attend church, or you went to a very liberal one.

Besides, who are you to 'count' other people's sins? Are you saying you don't sin?

That's impossible.
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« Reply #652 on: November 08, 2011, 12:36:44 PM »

In the end, we're all hypocrites.

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« Reply #653 on: November 08, 2011, 01:01:59 PM »

Hmm. I'm not seeing the logic in giving up on Christianity because of bad Christians. When we're disappointed in a meal, do we stop eating forever?
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« Reply #654 on: November 08, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »

Quote from: Virtus_lb
I blamed Church for half of it, because it very tolerant in this issue and never publicly condemns it. There are other sins to count, and I am generally Pelagian in thoughts.

What? You mean to tell me you have never heard a sermon or read an article which condemns premarital sex? I don't believe that. Either you don't attend church, or you went to a very liberal one.

Besides, who are you to 'count' other people's sins? Are you saying you don't sin?

That's impossible.

Well, in my country lot of Orthodox have criticized me for condemning sex before marriage. So even if I assume that most of falsely self-proclaimed(which are like 95% at least) Orthodox in my country don't visit church and never hear from a preacher --- I have never heard from a priest talking about premarital sex in regards to men.

The whole society agrees that men should be pretty skilled in sex at the time of marriage and they are considered weak or fools if they aren't. The Church still continues to preach about chastity of women only for some reason, because this appeals to our patriarchal society well as we have institute of virginity as way to monopolize women, while men can go to whores or to other countries for having fun.

I am not discrediting our whole Church, we have been Christians since IV century and there have been and still are some righteous and true Christian Theologians/priests in our country. I just talk about general situation.


P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
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« Reply #655 on: November 08, 2011, 01:52:56 PM »

P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
HAHAHA! I wish!


Call any of us when you do not feel anger, greed, pride, or lust. Or call me and tell me what your secret is.
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« Reply #656 on: November 08, 2011, 01:56:55 PM »

Quote from: Virtus_lb
I blamed Church for half of it, because it very tolerant in this issue and never publicly condemns it. There are other sins to count, and I am generally Pelagian in thoughts.
P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
Not trying to make light, but as a non-believer, the Devil doesn't care a wit about you not sinning Smiley

I would make the same argument about alot of folks that are "born" into a belief system. They (I use the term lightly) are by default what folks choose to be. I've seen it in Orthodoxy, RC's, Protestants, Muslims, everyone. Those born into a belief system really have not had that "eureka!" moment where converts have. vSo they kind of just "tread water" if you will.

Of course my generalizations are not completely accurate (as most aren't  Smiley) but I hope it helps.


PP
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« Reply #657 on: November 08, 2011, 02:18:14 PM »

P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
HAHAHA! I wish!


Call any of us when you do not feel anger, greed, pride, or lust. Or call me and tell me what your secret is.

Well, I don't say I never experience these, but as I said - for a believer it's much easier. Or else, he/she isn't a believer.

Recently I was arguing with Protestants(they are fascinated by my biblical knowledge and reasoning by the way) about "Only Faith", and as far as I am kind of Pelagian, I "tricked" them and in the end I got them agree on: "We are saved by faith alone, but if we have no works or if we continue to sin - this means we have no faith". Cheesy

For me, I consider sexual desire to be toughest to deal with. Anger and Greed are mostly alien to me... And there is no secret here... Pride - this depends...
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« Reply #658 on: November 08, 2011, 02:20:42 PM »


Not trying to make light, but as a non-believer, the Devil doesn't care a wit about you not sinning Smiley

I would make the same argument about alot of folks that are "born" into a belief system. They (I use the term lightly) are by default what folks choose to be. I've seen it in Orthodoxy, RC's, Protestants, Muslims, everyone. Those born into a belief system really have not had that "eureka!" moment where converts have. vSo they kind of just "tread water" if you will.

Of course my generalizations are not completely accurate (as most aren't  Smiley) but I hope it helps.


PP

You are right, that's why I sometimes consider baptism of children(even though it's not wrong) leading Christians in wrong way. When 83% of country's population are Christians, and only 2%(maximum) exhibit Christian reasoning, then something's wrong... And tree is judged by its fruits you know...

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« Reply #659 on: November 08, 2011, 02:29:12 PM »


Not trying to make light, but as a non-believer, the Devil doesn't care a wit about you not sinning Smiley

I would make the same argument about alot of folks that are "born" into a belief system. They (I use the term lightly) are by default what folks choose to be. I've seen it in Orthodoxy, RC's, Protestants, Muslims, everyone. Those born into a belief system really have not had that "eureka!" moment where converts have. vSo they kind of just "tread water" if you will.

Of course my generalizations are not completely accurate (as most aren't  Smiley) but I hope it helps.


PP

You are right, that's why I sometimes consider baptism of children(even though it's not wrong) leading Christians in wrong way. When 83% of country's population are Christians, and only 2%(maximum) exhibit Christian reasoning, then something's wrong... And tree is judged by its fruits you know...
Although I wont say the baptism of children is wrong, as I personally believe in it I will say that I agree that it can lead into the wrong way if not taken with the right heart attitude later on in life. I think it is a shame where there are so many Christians where you are (and in many other places) that can have the word "nominal" in front of it.....what a shame. Lord have mercy.


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« Reply #660 on: November 08, 2011, 02:59:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



You are right, that's why I sometimes consider baptism of children(even though it's not wrong) leading Christians in wrong way. When 83% of country's population are Christians, and only 2%(maximum) exhibit Christian reasoning, then something's wrong... And tree is judged by its fruits you know...


This is not exactly an Orthodox ontology.  We in Orthodox are not "born-again" and our Mystery of Baptism is not a symbol or reflection of cognisant conversion or sincere repentance, Baptism is from God.  Baptism is a mystical conversion of the heart and soul, killing and burying the old man of Sin and entering the neophyte into a new life in Christ, even as a young infant.  We do not choose God here, God has chosen us.  The Baptism does all the work, we do nothing but receive it.  So if we Baptize later it will make NO DIFFERENCE, the Baptism is Grace, and Grace is not given by measure or agency.  Older people do not receive more Grace than younger.  The Church MUST give Baptism to those, even infants, to prepare the life in the Church spiritually, by the Holy Spirit.  The Baptism does all the work.  If a person is 10 months old, 10 years old, or 100 years old, there is no difference.  The "born-again" concepts of Baptism from Evangelicals fit more-so into the Orthodox Tradition of Confession/Repentance.  If we find our communities or societies in an Orthodox decline, we do not need to change Orthodox, we need to change ourselves.  Further, its not a matter of force of will, it must be of the Grace of God, so we must turn to prayer for these matters, deeply.  The more we need change, the more deeply we need to pray and let God go before us doing His might works.

stay blessed,
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« Reply #661 on: November 08, 2011, 03:07:13 PM »

P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
HAHAHA! I wish!


Call any of us when you do not feel anger, greed, pride, or lust. Or call me and tell me what your secret is.

Well, I don't say I never experience these, but as I said - for a believer it's much easier. Or else, he/she isn't a believer.

For me, I consider sexual desire to be toughest to deal with. Anger and Greed are mostly alien to me... And there is no secret here... Pride - this depends...

No offense my brother, but I am extremely skeptical when I find people who can identify sins that they don't struggle with at all. I've listed them and used them when I criticized my loved ones for struggling with them. Guess what? I got mine. It was pride the entire time. And now I am unluckily burdened with my other vices as well.

If you breathe, you are prideful in some way. Nuff said.

It is easier for a believer in the sense that we have prayer, we have the saints and can ask them to help us intercede, we can talk to God, we can fast, etc. etc. But perhaps it takes many many years to even think it's easier to get by each day without sinning, whether in thought or deed.
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« Reply #662 on: November 08, 2011, 04:22:46 PM »

P.S. I am not sinless, but could become if I was Christian. At least I don't say bad words, I don't fornicate, kill, murder or do harm to anyone even when I am a non-believer. So it should be easier for a believer...
HAHAHA! I wish!


Call any of us when you do not feel anger, greed, pride, or lust. Or call me and tell me what your secret is.

Well, I don't say I never experience these, but as I said - for a believer it's much easier. Or else, he/she isn't a believer.

For me, I consider sexual desire to be toughest to deal with. Anger and Greed are mostly alien to me... And there is no secret here... Pride - this depends...

No offense my brother, but I am extremely skeptical when I find people who can identify sins that they don't struggle with at all. I've listed them and used them when I criticized my loved ones for struggling with them. Guess what? I got mine. It was pride the entire time. And now I am unluckily burdened with my other vices as well.

If you breathe, you are prideful in some way. Nuff said.

It is easier for a believer in the sense that we have prayer, we have the saints and can ask them to help us intercede, we can talk to God, we can fast, etc. etc. But perhaps it takes many many years to even think it's easier to get by each day without sinning, whether in thought or deed.

What you mean in "struggle with sins" - do you want to kill or steal so much that you are struggling with those? I understand the thought may arise, you can do nothing about it, but main thing is - you shouldn't have intention or motivation to do it. And it's common sense for any normal person to love others, and if you love others, you don't feel anger, hate, greed and etc.

"If you breathe, you are prideful in some way." - this statement is alien to the scriptures I would say, not to mention logic.

Then why Apostle John writes: "Don't be fooled! Whoever sins, is not from God." and later: "Whoever is born of God, does not sin, because Son of God protects him". And I thought people were born of God at the time of baptism. [Check last 3 chapters of John's I epistle]

And why Apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 5: "I told you not to mix with adulterers... And any other sinners(he lists some types of sinners)... I told you not to even eat with them..."


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« Reply #663 on: November 08, 2011, 05:06:32 PM »

1 John 3:15: Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If we want to take the murder definition to that point, yes, I struggle with it. Same with adultery.

I know it is not quite the same as murdering, but I believe that sin stems from a single thought, and as long as I have those thoughts there often, my chances to sin are definitely increased.
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« Reply #664 on: November 08, 2011, 05:25:16 PM »

1 John 3:15: Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If we want to take the murder definition to that point, yes, I struggle with it. Same with adultery.

I know it is not quite the same as murdering, but I believe that sin stems from a single thought, and as long as I have those thoughts there often, my chances to sin are definitely increased.

Brings to mind one of my favorite Warhammer 40k quotes - Thought begets heresy.  Heresy begets retribution. 

Seems like that works pretty well in the spiritual life as well.
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« Reply #665 on: November 08, 2011, 06:09:25 PM »

I understand the thought may arise, you can do nothing about it, but main thing is - you shouldn't have intention or motivation to do it. And it's common sense for any normal person to love others, and if you love others, you don't feel anger, hate, greed and etc.


You can do a lot about it. If you keep your thoughts in check, then the negative ones come up less and less often. I agree with you that you shouldn't have intention or motivation to act on those thoughts but i must disagree that in loving others you don't feel negative emotions /laughs. You just don't act on them, or try not to.
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« Reply #666 on: November 08, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »

1 John 3:15: Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If we want to take the murder definition to that point, yes, I struggle with it. Same with adultery.

I know it is not quite the same as murdering, but I believe that sin stems from a single thought, and as long as I have those thoughts there often, my chances to sin are definitely increased.

Nice avatar change! Much more inline with the season.
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« Reply #667 on: November 08, 2011, 06:25:35 PM »

1 John 3:15: Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If we want to take the murder definition to that point, yes, I struggle with it. Same with adultery.

I know it is not quite the same as murdering, but I believe that sin stems from a single thought, and as long as I have those thoughts there often, my chances to sin are definitely increased.

Brings to mind one of my favorite Warhammer 40k quotes - Thought begets heresy.  Heresy begets retribution. 

Seems like that works pretty well in the spiritual life as well.

Awesome. Preaching to the hipsters is so 2008, you gotta cull that stuff for the nerd set and get them to Orthodoxy toot sweet!
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« Reply #668 on: November 08, 2011, 07:13:35 PM »

1 John 3:15: Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If we want to take the murder definition to that point, yes, I struggle with it. Same with adultery.

I know it is not quite the same as murdering, but I believe that sin stems from a single thought, and as long as I have those thoughts there often, my chances to sin are definitely increased.

Nice avatar change! Much more inline with the season.
I love how you quote my posts to respond to my avatars.

You're welcome.

And Vamrat, nice Warhammer quote. And I've played it, although I never read the books, so I'll have to quote it to my friend next time I see him, just to see if he recognizes it...
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« Reply #669 on: November 09, 2011, 03:51:48 AM »

Ok since IsmiLiora's saying got so popular, I will write an answer to it. Smiley

First of all, does that mean hating a good brother or bad brother? I doubt someone can hate a good brother, or else he/she is wicked or mentally ill... If someone is bad, can he be called our brother at all? Paul asked us: "not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is" a sinner(wicked too)...

So he just falsely calls himself a brother while in reality he isn't...

But Christ asked us to love our enemies, not to mention the neutral people. And James says: "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness." And he spends several sentences proving that it's extremely wrong.

Thus, I am asking you, when the church councils cursed the heretics, isn't it against what Christ and Apostle James told us?

But no, you say, that they deserve it, they deserve being cursed so devastatingly, that they have no chance of salvation. It seems there is no point in last judgment, we have judged and condemned everyone already.

Now with all this, tell me, what is meant in "to hate his brother"? Can you curse(for eternal damnation) someone and still love him?
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« Reply #670 on: November 09, 2011, 03:54:46 AM »

Now with all this, tell me, what is meant in "to hate his brother"? Can you curse(for eternal damnation) someone and still love him?
Anathema does not mean eternally damned, despite what NIV translators and LARPers would have you believe.
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« Reply #671 on: November 09, 2011, 03:55:59 AM »

Thus, I am asking you, when the church councils cursed the heretics, isn't it against what Christ and Apostle James told us?
When Christ and the apostle John called people broods of vipers and antichrists, respectively, were they defying the true path?
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« Reply #672 on: November 09, 2011, 04:07:28 AM »

You(IsmiLiora) ask what is secret, but I ask you - what is love?

Isn't it unconditional passion towards others? As Apostle writes: "love doesn't keep records of bad"; Is it something that is hard? Doesn't St. Gregory the Theologian write in his letter to Theodore:

"We think it an important matter to obtain penalties from those who have wronged us:  an important matter, I say, (for even this is sometimes useful for the correction of others)—but it is far greater and more Godlike, to bear with injuries.  For the former course curbs wickedness, but the latter makes men good, which is much better and more perfect than merely being not wicked."

But is it hard for a believer? Jesus said: "Rejoice, because great is your reward in heaven". But no, lot of people want pleasure on earth too, they want revenge, they sue their wrongdoers in court - it's their right as they say. Those are ones with little faith.

To be demanding, is not love, it's hate, it's fear, but not love. You should be happy because someone else is happy, that's all that makes you happy if you love him/her. And as Paul writes: "It doesn't ask anything in return" - because if you do, then it's a bargain, it's trade and not emission of love like a light, which lights everything on its way, like a rain, "which is sent to all, righteous and unrighteous".

So, if you love, then all your bad thoughts will disappear. Greed, Anger, Hate and etc.

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« Reply #673 on: November 09, 2011, 04:11:35 AM »

Now with all this, tell me, what is meant in "to hate his brother"? Can you curse(for eternal damnation) someone and still love him?
Anathema does not mean eternally damned, despite what NIV translators and LARPers would have you believe.

This is what modern Church believes in general. St. John Crysostom criticized anathemizing of heretics, but no one listened to him. Well, his best friend got cursed(with terrible words) 125 years later though. Cheesy

And there was a Georgian Council convened in 11th century, which in the end proclaimed: "Let all Orthodox be glorified and all unorthodox be cursed eternally." - And people are proud of these words.

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« Reply #674 on: November 10, 2011, 02:28:10 AM »

Quote
biroP: Then why are you here?
I am here in an attempt to gain understanding on why I should not have premarital sex.
It has been repeated to me several times that followers of the Orthodox Church believe this because the Orthodox Church teaches it. and that they believe the Orthodox Church has not waivered from the original teachings of the apostals, so there for it must be correct.
I have stated that such a narrow minded view is not sufficient to convince me. And that I wish to hear reasons for the Church to teach against Premarital sex.
some responces have addressed reasons for the Churches view; ranging from the moral / ethical stand point to the technical (definition) stand point. and I appreciate them debating on a more logical level.
If, however, you are unable to grasp the concept that "because it is the tradition of the Church" is an argument that is unable to convince me.... then what are you doing here?



Quote
Michał Kalina: Almost 2000 years.
Oops, typo.  yes 2000 years


Quote
Bible wasn't miraculously discovered in 1950s. It had existed before. Most of the Dead Sea scrolls contain the Old Testament books (of the Bible, not the Protestant crib).
firstly, I know it existed before: hence I said rediscovered.
secondly, I think you misunderstood my question...
Quote
akimori makoto: Often, if it is difficult to tell what the apostles meant in the new testament, any ambiguity can be resolved by consulting the apostolic fathers
if the large portions of the Bible where lost for hundereds of years. then how could one use the apostolic fathers to make clear the teachings of the Apostels if you did not even have access the the new testament to begin with?



edit: clicked post by accident. still replying to other comments
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