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Author Topic: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?  (Read 53448 times) Average Rating: 1
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just_some_guy
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« Reply #585 on: October 30, 2011, 07:41:48 AM »

Lust as defined by the dictionary is actually not the same as it is defined within Orthodoxy.
lol. there is so much I could say to this... but will bite my tongue
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« Reply #586 on: October 30, 2011, 07:49:22 AM »

I would like to add that in ancient times, it was much more common for people to get married at a younger age, sometime in their teens. Thus it wouldn't have been as long to wait, not when compared to today, when people take twice as much time. Also, in any era, sex outside of marriage could, if you're not careful, lead to disease and unwanted pregnancy. Some things have changed over time, but some things haven't.
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« Reply #587 on: October 30, 2011, 08:24:05 AM »

its irrelevant, the apostles passed it down to the congregation that it is a sin to have sex outside the bounds of marriage as it is a form of lust which is a sin, thus we follow, it makes it as much of a sin as lying or stealing, but that only means you can confess and repent !
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« Reply #588 on: October 30, 2011, 09:40:12 AM »

@ neon_knights:
you took the time to write it, so I shall take the time to respond. unfortunately I will not be addressing your points at face value simply because I disagree with so many of your beliefs / underlining assumptions.

lets begin:
Quote
If you look at the Biblical creation myth, whether you hold it to be entirely true physically or not
as stated I prefer to interpret the bible in an accurate and literal sense. literal as in not a myth.
the point you made is still relevent to those who agree with my point of view, but I thought that since even other EO members disagree with you then maybe its worth pointing out.

Quote
THIS is the formula (or "context" as Pikhristos was talking about) that God clearly intended for sex.
lets pull this ALL the way back to my OP.
Quote
The Bible clearly explains sex has three purposes:

Procreation – this is the obvious purpose of sex.
 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Genesis 1:28


Enjoyment - sex is designed to be fun and enjoyable.
 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

A loving doe, a graceful deer-
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.

Proverbs 5:18-19


An expression of love – sex is the physical manifestation of love.
 Let us go early to the vineyards
to see if the vines have budded,
if their blossoms have opened,
and if the pomegranates are in bloom-
there I will give you my love.

Song of Songs 7:12


Quote
The Bible often uses the word "porneia" as something that is forbidden, which means an illicit sexual act. Erasmus and most other translators of the Bible into English translate the word as "fornication", which means sex outside of marriage
yes. also covered this in my OP

Quote
If you trust that the Holy Spirit guided these translators to provide an accurate English translation of the Bible, then the question ends there.
I trust these people as much as the people who wrote the he/she bible. they talk about the Father/Mother, the Son/Daughter, and the holy asexual spirit.

Quote
Earlier you said abortion wasn't bad
STOP QUOTING ME OUT OF CONTEXT !!
Quote
fist off. when I said "abortions are Not 'bad'", that was supposed to be the header for the following sub categories. You should read it as...
"abortions are Not 'bad' socially, because ..."
"abortions are Not 'bad' financially, because ..."
"abortions are Not 'bad' politically, because..."


Quote
the Catholic Church (which according to the Bible is the "pillar of truth")
according to other Orthodox Christians on this thread the Catholic Church, and I quote,  "WENT INTO HERESY and hetropraxis".

and according to me: it don't matter what other Christians (of any denomination) said or did. unless I get sound reasoning or scriptural evidence for such actions then I, to quote my Grand Pa, "don't give a flying rats behind"

and that goes for all of you. its all well and good for you to use historical events as evidence. but there where as many deluded people back then as there are today.





and on the subject of Lust.
once you lot have agreed upon a definition then I will address the issue.
or even two definitions if there is a split amongst you.



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« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 09:28:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Pikhristos Aftonf
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« Reply #589 on: October 30, 2011, 10:09:39 AM »

OP please stop bossing us around!
Quote
as stated I prefer to interpret the bible in an accurate and literal sense. literal as in not a myth.
the point you made is still relevent to those who agree with my point of view, but I thought that since even other EO members disagree with you then maybe its worth pointing out.
is your view strictly literal? so does that mean you hold the revelations in a literal sense? if yes, then why are you having this conversation, stick to your belief, but only know that it lacks grace! if no then we can discuss things:
firstly- if you don't hold the Biblical verses in a literal sense all the time, do you use your own discretion to decide on whether a passage is literal or allegorical?
secondly- do you subscribe to the interpretation of the early church fathers, or only your own?
Quote
lets pull this ALL the way back to my OP.
should i take this to mean that you take the Bible literally in every instance? if so, conversation ends here for me!
Quote
I trust these people as much as the people who wrote the he/she bible. they talk about the Father/Mother, the Son/Daughter, and the holy asexual spirit.
what does that mean? why are you capitalising Mother and Daughter? the capitalized form is appropriate to the first and second persons of the trinity...
Quote
according to other Orthodox Christians on this thread the Catholic Church, and I quote,  "WENT INTO HERESY and hetropraxis".
herein collapses your literalism! when we talk about Catholic Church we refer to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which IS THE ORTHODOX CHURCH! the Catholic Church does not have hegemony over that term; furthermore their application of the term in description of themselves is simply WRONG because they fell into heresy!
Catholic merely means Universal, as the Orthodox church is the ONLY church, it is the Universal Church!
the Roman Catholic Church is a different thing.

Quote
its all well and good for you to use historical events as evidence. but there where as many deluded people back then as there are today.
if we use Oral tradition as passed down from the Apostles, is that enough?
are the Apostles included in your "deluded" frame of things? Is the Holy Virgin Mary?
actually there was less delusion, as you must know, there was less chance of confusion and delusion due to the smaller timeframe of events since the ascension of Christ. the smaller timeframe allowed less time for "delusion" to occur.
i agree there were "deluded" men in ancient times. however, to compare the degree of "delusion" of the ancient church to today's fractioned, numerous and more often than not heretical protestantism is simply Historiographical injustice!
Quote
and on the subject of Lust.
once you lot have agreed upon a definition then I will address the issue.
or even two definitions if there is a split amongst you.
if you cared to read beyond "i disagree" you will find that Quinault and I share the same view (at least i hope that i share his, because i agree with it).
I believe Lust=sexual desire. However, through the mystery of Marriage sexual desire between the married couple is sanctified and given a context in which it is to operate in a Godly way. so that it is no longer lust! this allows a context in which sexual desire is not sinful. outside this context , sexual desire is nothing but lust as it is a passion not sanctified by the holy spirit through matrimony. and as you agree that lust is a sin, that leads to the conclusion that if my original statement is true, then premarital sex is a sin. please show me why original statement is not true....

also i am still waiting for you to address reply #128!

« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:21:46 AM by Pikhristos Aftonf » Logged
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« Reply #590 on: October 30, 2011, 10:49:05 AM »

Perhaps some qualifying terms will help the lust definitions.

Lust is a passion of sexual desire, just as rage is a passion of anger.

You can be angry without sinning. It is when this anger affects our decisions, will, and desire that it becomes sinful. In a similar way, sexual desire is not in itself sinful. It is when the desire becomes a means in itself and/or when the desire controls ourselves that it becomes sinful.

For example, a loving sexual encounter between husband and wife is not sinful when they are having sex, not just out of love and 'with' one another, but 'for' one another. However, as soon as one is 'using' the other for sexual fulfillment, for pleasure for the sake of pleasure, where they are practically performing masturbation by use of another, THEN it is becoming sinful. In this way, sex is not for the union of two, but for the passionate self-fulfillment of individuals.

The context is love. God is love. Sex for personal fulfillment is at it's best self-love, which is in the realm of pride. Love is shared between others.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:51:15 AM by Aindriú » Logged


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« Reply #591 on: October 30, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »

within the context of marriage, much like the anger scenario is within the context of maintaining a christian attitude
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« Reply #592 on: October 30, 2011, 12:40:29 PM »

Quote from: just_some_guy
and according to me: it don't matter what other Christians (of any denomination) said or did. unless I get sound reasoning or scriptural evidence for such actions then I, to quote my Grand Pa, "don't give a flying rats ass"

and that goes for all of you. its all well and good for you to use historical events as evidence. but there where as many deluded people back then as there are today.

If you're going to call people delusional and refer to a rodent's body, then you shouldn't be surprised at the responses you get. 
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« Reply #593 on: October 30, 2011, 01:04:21 PM »

Seriously. The attitude of the OP is astounding. And you expect some woman to sleep with you? And when she says no because you're an arrogant man-child, are you going to ask for scriptural evidence to justify her stance?
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« Reply #594 on: October 30, 2011, 03:07:42 PM »

Seriously. The attitude of the OP is astounding. And you expect some woman to sleep with you? And when she says no because you're an arrogant man-child, are you going to ask for scriptural evidence to justify her stance?

Touche! I would add that one cannot be a Christian by default ;I believe tat OP had said something to the effect that, as a number cruncher, he came to disbelieve in evolution and thus became a Christian. I would say that being a Christian is to be a follower of the Lord Jesus the Christ. It definitely is not being your own lord, something that the OP seems to believe in.
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« Reply #595 on: October 30, 2011, 05:30:50 PM »

Seriously. The attitude of the OP is astounding. And you expect some woman to sleep with you? And when she says no because you're an arrogant man-child, are you going to ask for scriptural evidence to justify her stance?

Bravo! Give the man a cigar!!
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Pikhristos Aftonf
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« Reply #596 on: October 30, 2011, 07:51:42 PM »

well played, Sir  Grin
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« Reply #597 on: October 31, 2011, 12:35:36 AM »

The sources I quoted from are all highly regarded sources in the Christian community. The Didache was considered to be Scripture by many, and Enoch is considered Scripture by the Ethiopians. Augustine is considered one of the greatest theologians ever, especially by the Christian west. None of these sources are "deluded".

JSG, you're the one that's deluded.

Seems like you've already made up your mind. Any argument you hear from any of us on here wont be good enough for you. Why are you even persisting? You are obviously not getting the responses you want.

If you are looking for arguments from Scripture ONLY, then go to another forum. As stated several times before, Orthodox Christians do NOT believe in Sola Scriptura, let alone Solo Scriptura (look it up), which is what you are touting.

I hope you understand that ANYONE, if placed in a "Bible alone" setting, can twist the meaning of scripture to say what they want it to say (EXACTLY what you are doing). Look at Harold Camping. Thats why its SO IMPORTANT to look at the Bible through the eyes of the Early Christians; through the testimonies of the Fathers, through the Councils and creeds, through deuterocanonical or pseudopigraphical writings. But none of that will fly for you, so I really suggest you look elsewhere. Go to a Calvinist forum. If they start throwing Church Fathers at you (they probably will), go to an evangelical or fundy forum. But trying to get people on here to give you evidence from the Bible only will eventually lead to an epistemological debate.

Again, you've already made up your mind. Why are you still arguing? To cause trouble? For the thrill of a good debate? Obviously the people here arent following your "debating guidelines", and probably wont. I guess that makes the people here bad debaters in your mind. Bull shyte.

I wish you luck in finding a woman you can have sex with. You are REALLY going to need it.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 12:44:50 AM by neon_knights » Logged
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« Reply #598 on: October 31, 2011, 12:56:31 AM »

JSG please understand that your sola scripture methodology is both arrogant and flawed, you refuse the interpretations of the early fathers, the disciples of the disciples and instead take your own? are you really that arrogant?
you need to understand that to be Christian is to attempt to live a Christ-like life. that includes both observing and respecting the scriptures as well as the Oral tradition and all other things passed by the apostles on to their students, onto their students, until it reached the Orthodox church of 2011.by rejecting the non-scriptural components, you are picking and choosing the faith, does that seem right to you? make your own interpretation of biblical phrases, ignore a large part of Christianity, these are your choices, but don't request that anyone approves of premarital sex just because the Scriptures didn't specifically oppose it.
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« Reply #599 on: October 31, 2011, 07:30:39 AM »

JSG is no friend to his Sola Scriptura coreligionists. In my experience, most of them tend towards a legalism that comes down hard on any sexual activity outside marriage between one man and one woman.

I wonder if JSG can provide us with any authoritative reference that actually and actively supports his position?
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« Reply #600 on: October 31, 2011, 09:27:13 AM »

I wonder if JSG can provide us with any authoritative reference that actually and actively supports his position?

Yes.  People here have been trying for 5 pages to show JSG their point of view (which he shoots down with arrogant sophistry).  Perhaps it is time for him to make a case.  It is far harder to argue a point than it is to negate one.  So, JSG, are your wits up to the challenge?  Can you prove any spiritual benefit of premarital sex?
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« Reply #601 on: October 31, 2011, 11:38:29 PM »

 His love was revealed on the Cross, when He suffered with and for mankind to break the burden of death.

I'm almost embarrassed that I have to speak with you this way, because you are obviously intelligent and probably have been exposed to all of this before.  But, I think your own suffering has made this unclear.

  Jesus Christ did not break the burden of death for anybody, we all stil have to die wheather or not he was raised from the dead.  His death is only "symbolic", meaning the church or whatever is  free to fill it with any meaning they want.

You're embarrased?  That's your problem.  For me, I'm successfully de-converted from Orthodoxy... I do not share that faith anymore.  Your take on Buddhism is offbase, there are actually schools of Buddhist thought that focus on working with our desires in order to achieve liberation.  Blanket rejection of desire, aversion to desire rather, is itself a form of immoderation and absolutism that the Buddha also rejected.  The goal of Buddhism is the liberation of all beings, not just oneself (the self-other dichotomy may be OK with Christians, but in Buddhism there is no difference between seeking happiness for oneself and others, ultimately).    That can even include living a life of something other than celibacy.

  Having a desire is perfectly OK.  Desires should be held lightly, without clinging.  It's OK to desire something as long as what you desire doesn't hurt somebody else or yourself.

Quote
 The liberation of Christianity is the freedom from death.  It is the healing of the person that begins in this life and continues into eternity.  It is a gift of love that comes independent of circumstances.  

  See what I just said... there is no liberation from death, we will all die and become worm food.  Christ didn't fix it so we never die.  We still will grow old, our bodies will wither and we will die, we'll lose friends, loved ones... if one believes Christianity, potentially forever because some will go to heaven and some to hell, all depending on what particular sect you just happened to go to.  
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 11:43:23 PM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
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« Reply #602 on: October 31, 2011, 11:56:12 PM »

Yet Buddhism has no authority on anything.
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« Reply #603 on: November 01, 2011, 12:27:02 AM »

 His love was revealed on the Cross, when He suffered with and for mankind to break the burden of death.

I'm almost embarrassed that I have to speak with you this way, because you are obviously intelligent and probably have been exposed to all of this before.  But, I think your own suffering has made this unclear.

  Jesus Christ did not break the burden of death for anybody, we all stil have to die wheather or not he was raised from the dead.  His death is only "symbolic", meaning the church or whatever is  free to fill it with any meaning they want.

You're embarrased?  That's your problem.  For me, I'm successfully de-converted from Orthodoxy... I do not share that faith anymore.  Your take on Buddhism is offbase, there are actually schools of Buddhist thought that focus on working with our desires in order to achieve liberation.  Blanket rejection of desire, aversion to desire rather, is itself a form of immoderation and absolutism that the Buddha also rejected.  The goal of Buddhism is the liberation of all beings, not just oneself (the self-other dichotomy may be OK with Christians, but in Buddhism there is no difference between seeking happiness for oneself and others, ultimately).    That can even include living a life of something other than celibacy.

  Having a desire is perfectly OK.  Desires should be held lightly, without clinging.  It's OK to desire something as long as what you desire doesn't hurt somebody else or yourself.

Quote
 The liberation of Christianity is the freedom from death.  It is the healing of the person that begins in this life and continues into eternity.  It is a gift of love that comes independent of circumstances.  

  See what I just said... there is no liberation from death, we will all die and become worm food.  Christ didn't fix it so we never die.  We still will grow old, our bodies will wither and we will die, we'll lose friends, loved ones... if one believes Christianity, potentially forever because some will go to heaven and some to hell, all depending on what particular sect you just happened to go to.  


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« Reply #604 on: November 01, 2011, 12:56:44 AM »

 See what I just said... there is no liberation from death, we will all die and become worm food.
No.
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« Reply #605 on: November 01, 2011, 01:18:37 AM »

Yet Buddhism has no authority on anything.

 I do not believe the Eastern Orthodox Church/Communion has any authority either.  There are claims to authority, of course... but I don't believe them. 
 
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« Reply #606 on: November 01, 2011, 01:21:08 AM »

Yet Buddhism has no authority on anything.

 I do not believe the Eastern Orthodox Church/Communion has any authority either.  There are claims to authority, of course... but I don't believe them. 
 
And how does Buddhism have any authority?
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« Reply #607 on: November 01, 2011, 02:07:44 AM »

Hi Daedelus1138,

You'll probably say I'm wrong, but I don't think you believe half of what you say here.  To be honest it pains me to see the things you are saying about the Orthodox Church. I think you want to believe what you say desperately and I understand why and can sympathize.  This is a profoundly difficult world we live in and I don't claim to have any real answers as to why things are the way they are.  I for one don't doubt for a second that you didn't choose who you were attracted to.  I don't doubt that what you seek is true love.  I don't doubt that you carry an enormous cross and that Orthodoxy, at least the way it was presented to you, was profoundly burdensome and sucked out almost every last drop of life in you until you felt completely worthless, in a dark pit, with no feeling of love, either from the Church or from God Himself.  I don't buy into the "every cross is the same" BS that some people preach around here.  I don't doubt what you say, but you will never find the Light in Buddhism.  It will leave you in far worse shape.  You will continue to thirst, at least I hope, for the Divine.  In Orthodoxy there is life and I truly believe that you could live within the Church, remain faithful to her teachings (which are of divine origin!), without having to feel spiritually and emotionally dead.  I don't know what you experienced in the Church, but I'd be interested in hearing your story.  With that said, regardless of where you go from here, I pray that you don't lose that spark that seeks knowledge of the true God.   
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« Reply #608 on: November 01, 2011, 08:49:50 AM »

]
And how does Buddhism have any authority?

   What do you mean by "authority"?   You mean power over somebody to compel them to believe or obey?  Then this isn't what Buddhism is about at all.  Epistemology in Buddhism starts with faith in the Buddha's realization of Nirvana.  Buddhism also deals much less with moral issues than Christianity and there are certainly no divine commandments; its up to the individual and their spiritual teacher, there is no centralized "Buddhist morality".

    I value some things I learned in Orthodoxy, but the authority the Church presents is simply based on the age old (fallacious) principle of "because I said so".  For all I know, Anglicans or Lutherans, or Baptists could be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church".  The charges of the Latins against Orthodoxy of Caesaropapism are basicly true, though I find equal fault with Roman Catholics on this issue.   So, I don't think Orthodox have any special expertise in telling me about morality.  It is not obvious to me that being gay or having gay relationships is immoral or unethical so I do not accept Orthodoxy.

  I just want everybody to know I'm still kicking but I'm not Orthodox anymore.   Ionnis is partly right,  I do "miss" being Orthodox, it broke my heart to have to leave the Orthodox church but in the end, it is the right thing to do.  My blood pressure is lower, i feel less conflicted. Am I perfectly happy?  No, I am still working on that.   I am currently exploring Pure Land Buddhism and take refuge in the Buddha and also I am interested in Taoist teachings (and also learning some Chinese and studying some aspects of Chinese medicine and alchemy).  I try to keep an open mind, and I realize some of the dangers of fanaticism.  If anything it was a kind of cosmic justice I found out about my gay side in the Orthodox church, I had run away from Episcopalians because I craved a spiritually "safe" environment away from the debates about homosexuality that were happening in the Anglican world.   And I burned emotional bridges with some Anglicans I knew, since I had repressed my sexuality so much I just never thought about or appreciated the weight of these issues, about the terrible sacrifice I was expecting myself to endure, or the complex values Anglicans must deal with.  So in some ways, I deserved what was coming to me by not dealing with people with love. I have since talked to an Episcopalian priest again and he said I would be welcome at his cathedral church to participate in the liturgy and receive the Eucharist.  I thanked him for his time but told him I'm not yet ready, but if I ever return to faith in God, Anglicanism would be my spiritual home, despite the horrible attitude I had at the time to Anglicanism.  Orthodoxy is simply not an option for me, it is unlivable, though I appreciate many things in the Orthodox tradition, its teaching about homosexuality is not one of them.


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« Reply #609 on: November 01, 2011, 08:54:56 AM »

So, you believe something is okay because you... really want to do it.  Huh

I don't think Buddhism teaches that.
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« Reply #610 on: November 01, 2011, 11:50:16 AM »

So, you believe something is okay because you... really want to do it.  Huh

I don't think Buddhism teaches that.

  Why presume starting out that homosexual acts are immoral?  Not everybody shares that view (including many Buddhists, the founder of the Western Buddhist Order in Britain (Ven. Sangharakshita, a British-born convert to Buddhist in the late 50's), which is part of the Tibetan Buddhist/Vajrayana tradition, doesn't consider homosexuality immoral (he's gay himself), neither does the Buddhist Churches of America or Sokka Gakai, the biggest Buddhist sects in the US).  At one time I was a non-Christian, even before I became Orthodox...  I did not consider homosexuality to be immoral, even though I did not identify as gay or bisexual (it was something I left largely unexamined).    When Orthodox insist that the burden is to prove that homosexuality is not immoral, they are not appreciating the burden of proof is on them in terms of what most educated people will accept.
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« Reply #611 on: November 01, 2011, 04:56:13 PM »

You didn't really answer the statement. Nice tangent.

You believe something is okay just because you really want to do it?
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« Reply #612 on: November 01, 2011, 05:00:58 PM »

When Orthodox insist that the burden is to prove that homosexuality is not immoral, they are not appreciating the burden of proof is on them in terms of what most educated people will accept.


Like premarital sex, I've never heard that homosexuality was immoral 'but we're not going to tell you why'.

BTW, you are or are not Christian? Your avatar info claims non-Christian and ex-catechumen.
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« Reply #613 on: November 01, 2011, 05:28:38 PM »

Yet Buddhism has no authority on anything.

 I do not believe the Eastern Orthodox Church/Communion has any authority either.  There are claims to authority, of course... but I don't believe them. 
 

Because you are the sole authority.
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« Reply #614 on: November 01, 2011, 05:29:58 PM »

So, you believe something is okay because you... really want to do it.  Huh

I don't think Buddhism teaches that.

It does if someone really wants it to.
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« Reply #615 on: November 01, 2011, 06:01:15 PM »

When Orthodox insist that the burden is to prove that homosexuality is not immoral, they are not appreciating the burden of proof is on them in terms of what most educated people will accept.


Like premarital sex, I've never heard that homosexuality was immoral 'but we're not going to tell you why'.

BTW, you are or are not Christian? Your avatar info claims non-Christian and ex-catechumen.

  I'm a non-Christian.  I believe Jesus could have existed, maybe even risen from the dead, but the Orthodox don't know any more about Jesus or what he would or wouldn't want than anybody else.  And I don't consider Jesus a unique divine being.  Theism no longer interests me, either.  So, I'm a non-Christian.
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« Reply #616 on: November 03, 2011, 07:06:25 AM »

I wonder if JSG can provide us with any authoritative reference that actually and actively supports his position?

Yes.  People here have been trying for 5 pages to show JSG their point of view (which he shoots down with arrogant sophistry).  Perhaps it is time for him to make a case.  It is far harder to argue a point than it is to negate one.  So, JSG, are your wits up to the challenge?  Can you prove any spiritual benefit of premarital sex?
in a rush at the moment. so will for now just point to a question I have already asked in the OP:

is the use of 'Fornication' in the bible justified? or is it a misquotation from the greek Porneia?

'sexual immorality's' is used in place of 'Fornication' in other translations. does this still include Fornication or is this used as a more accurate translation that does Not include Fornication.

PS: took me a while to figure out what JSG stood for. lol
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« Reply #617 on: November 03, 2011, 09:17:07 AM »

I am pretty sure JSG is another name of a person who was here a few months ago, and posted almost exactly the same argument, in the same tone, with the same words. It's just too odd to be a coincidence.
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« Reply #618 on: November 03, 2011, 09:27:44 AM »

I've actually wondered if its another Achronos cloneCheesy
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« Reply #619 on: November 03, 2011, 02:39:31 PM »

It doesn't sound like him. I don't think he'd do that, when he already has an account.
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« Reply #620 on: November 03, 2011, 03:18:02 PM »

It doesn't sound like him. I don't think he'd do that, when he already has an account.

But he already did that when he had an account.   police  Neenerneenerneener (the sound of a British siren).

I think the not sounding like him bit is more compelling.  I didn't read the thread though.  No premarital sex is pretty clearly the teaching of the Church, and the dude, whoever he is, is trying to get out of it.  Someone let me know if he succeeds!  Smiley
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« Reply #621 on: November 03, 2011, 03:21:14 PM »

Okay, fair enough.
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« Reply #622 on: November 03, 2011, 03:35:25 PM »

Okay, fair enough.

I feel much better, having argued that point.  Undecided

I should note a counterargument provided by The Exploited, regarding the sound of a British copper siren (they claim meemah v neenerneener, but I still think I'm more righter.  Warning: There may be foul language in this song, but you probably can't understand it as they are marblemouthed Edinburghers).  Here's an interesting guitar representation of the sound.

Back on topic: Don't have premarital sex kiddies!
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« Reply #623 on: November 03, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »

So, I'm a non-Christian.

It's good that you've come to terms with this fact which has been glaringly apparent to many here for quite some time.
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« Reply #624 on: November 03, 2011, 04:56:04 PM »

Quote from: just_some_guy
in a rush at the moment. so will for now just point to a question I have already asked in the OP:

is the use of 'Fornication' in the bible justified?


Yes.

Quote from: just_some_guy
or is it a misquotation from the greek Porneia?

No, it is accurate. That's pretty much the end, it is accurate as per scholars and it doesn't matter what some guy thinks.
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« Reply #625 on: November 03, 2011, 10:23:01 PM »

is the use of 'Fornication' in the bible justified? or is it a misquotation from the greek Porneia?

I wonder if all those Greek people, the vast majority of whom are Orthodox Christians, would know?
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« Reply #626 on: November 04, 2011, 02:00:44 AM »

OP, why do you believe in the trinity? it is not in the bible, it is contradicted by the majority of the old testament. the reason you believe in the trinity would be the same reason premarital sex is a sin
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« Reply #627 on: November 04, 2011, 05:12:56 AM »

Quote
biro: I am pretty sure JSG is another name of a person who was here a few months ago, and posted almost exactly the same argument, in the same tone, with the same words. It's just too odd to be a coincidence.
yes, that is odd
however I am not that guy. don't know what else to say.
nor am I "another Achronos clone"


Quote
Pikhristos Aftonf: OP, why do you believe in the trinity? it is not in the bible, it is contradicted by the majority of the old testament. the reason you believe in the trinity would be the same reason premarital sex is a sin
could you please expand on your question. I am unsure on what you are implying



Quote
ori makoto: I wonder if all those Greek people, the vast majority of whom are Orthodox Christians, would know?
Greek speaking people knowing the meaning of Greek words. sounds logical.
however, as an english speaker, I still need to refer to a dictionary to understand the use of a word. what Im saying is, are "all those Greek people" we are talking about linguist ? Im sure some of them are. so what evidence/ logical reasoning do they use to come about such a deffinition?
or better yet, what evidence/ logical reasoning do You use to define the word as such? (and PLEASE don't just say 'because the church says so' because that gets us nowhere)

Quote
Jason.Wike: No, it is accurate.
oh, ok. so you use an internet site to prove your point....
Quote
just_some_guy: some people will say yes because that is what they where taught. other will say no. different web site will also be inconsistent with the translation because they where written by the two groups of people.
wow. I saw this coming even back in my OP.

Quote
That's pretty much the end, it is accurate as per scholars and it doesn't matter what some guy thinks.
me agreeing with you just because you posted a link to a website that agrees with you has as much chance of happening as you agreeing with me just because I posted a link to a website that agrees with me.

so what now? unless a greek linguist posts a thesus on the social history and language development of biblical times... then we seem to be at an impass.

I sujest we focus on where the Bible didn't say don't have premarital sex "because it is a sin".
eg:
Quote
Psalms talks about prostitution. an act that obviously falls under fornication. however it does NOT say that prostitution is illegal. or against Gods will. sure it does say that it is a bad idea to get involved with prostitutes; but wouldn't it be easyier to convay this message simply by saying that fornication is a sin, and by extention prostitution?
why not just say "because it is a sin"?
my argument is because fornication is NOT a sin. the bible talks down on Protitutes for other reasons because it has other reasons to talk down on prostitution, and does not say fornication, and by extention prostitution, is a sin because it is not a sin. simple logic.

your view?
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« Reply #628 on: November 04, 2011, 06:53:21 AM »

I sujest we focus on where the Bible didn't say don't have premarital sex "because it is a sin".

I suggest we focus on where the Bible does say "Go ahead with premarital sex". You must have plenty of examples in mind where premarital sex is encouraged or shown to be helpful and beneficial to all concerned.
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« Reply #629 on: November 04, 2011, 11:53:03 AM »

The website is the web version of an actual book, the New American Standard New Testament Greek Lexicon. Something being on the web does not automatically make it an untrustworthy source. If I had posted someone's LiveJournal entry or Wikipedia it would be, but its an actual book, written by people that know what they're actually talking about, so you can't just brush it off. This is even true in academia, if I cite something from JSTOR or an online version of a book no professor is going to say "Its online so you can't use it."
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