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Author Topic: Premarital Sex Is Not a Sin?  (Read 45644 times) Average Rating: 1
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #180 on: May 11, 2011, 06:58:24 PM »

God told Man to have dominion over the animals; not to form inter-species relationships with them.   Huh
St. Seraphim of Sarov made friends with all the animals and fed a bear out of his hand.

God has dominion over us, but is still our Philanthropos.
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« Reply #181 on: May 11, 2011, 08:30:56 PM »

I do have the ability to know what it is like to be celibate and to desire a sexual relationship since my husband was deployed for almost 3 years between two deployments.

   That's a stretch to compare 3 years of loneliness against decades of it.   Presuming to jump into my life and diagnose my spiritual malaise when you don't even know much about my life at all is arrogant.

It is the difference between wishing you had been able to have something, and having it and losing it. I was married for a decade before my husband was deployed the first time. Not to mention the fact that I was a single parent of 2-4 children during those deployments.
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« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2011, 08:55:54 PM »

Why is rape the terrifying experience that it is?  Why are rape victims quite often more traumatized than assault victims and war veterans?  Yes, for the rapist rape is about control - but they're using the most physically and emotionally intense means of control, and the most scarring abuse of the human psyche, to accomplish that exercise in control.  It's never "just sex."  Sex is a beautiful gift from God, a means of intimate union - and that union was only designed to be made once, never broken, never shared with others.  When we go against this principle, we cheapen the effect that sex has on us, we wound ourselves emotionally, and we risk becoming sexual sociopaths - completely divorcing meaningful emotional (and spiritual) union from the sexual act.

This is a powerful paragraph.
Wow.
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« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2011, 11:44:48 PM »

God told Man to have dominion over the animals; not to form inter-species relationships with them.   Huh
St. Seraphim of Sarov made friends with all the animals and fed a bear out of his hand.

God has dominion over us, but is still our Philanthropos.

You're preaching to the choir.   Wink
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« Reply #184 on: May 12, 2011, 12:05:37 AM »

In the end, we will all be stripped naked of pretenses of holiness and the only thing we'll be judged by is how much we have loved.

Let's all smoke a bong and do a stranger.
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« Reply #185 on: May 12, 2011, 01:02:40 AM »

(Likewise, a strict understanding of the Fall as a mistake makes no sense, since an omnipotent being just doesn't let mistakes "just happen" outside his will). 

Theology fail.
Priceless.
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« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2011, 02:45:58 PM »

 Some people disparagingly discuss the negative effects of prolonged celibacy, and then suggest becoming sexually active, without recognizing that most of the issues that arise with prolonged celibacy have more to do with the support structure (familial, cultural, etc.) than with an individual being celibate. 

  An individual is never seperate from that support structure, or lack thereof, so to talk about celibacy abstractly like this ignores the lived reality of most people who are single.

Quote
I think, too, the perpetuation of the "its just sex" myth is extremely harmful - it's only "just sex" if you want to make it that way, and only after devaluing it through emotionally detached practice.  

  I've delt with several counsellors who would not support alot of the views of certain Orthodox theologians, and yet they treat sexuality seriously and realize it is emotionally risky.  Its not a black or white thing, not everybody that rejects medieval justifications for these mores views it as "just sex".  And for what its worth, I don't view sex without the oppenness to love as being responsible behavior.  I don't view sex as recreational as many people do now in our culture, but at the same time i have trouble seeing the medieval Christian ideals about sexuality as realistic.





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« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2011, 03:40:37 PM »

I haven't really read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has been dealt with.
Daedelus1138 have you spoken with your Priest about these issues? Why become Orthodox if you never intend to follow the strict moral code that Orthodoxy upholds?
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« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2011, 08:10:35 PM »

Daedelus1138, I like your posts very much... some people just dont realize that saints i.e. fathers are not infallible...  only the proclamations of the councils are the true teaching of our Church
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« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »

Daedelus1138, I like your posts very much... some people just dont realize that saints i.e. fathers are not infallible...  only the proclamations of the councils are the true teaching of our Church

 THAT is why I want to be Orthodox.  Not because i think St. So-and-So's thoughts on human sexuality are infallible eternal truth, but because I believe in the Nicene Creed and the 7 Ecumenical Councils expresses the catholic Faith.  I also happen to think the Eastern understanding of "the atonement" and salvation is, on the whole, more relevent to the modern world than the western juridical tradition (otherwise i might be Anglican, and there's still some Anglicans that worship at the feet of the Reformation).   Other than that, i'm a thinking person and i'm not going to shut off my critical thought stuff just because i'm told to do so.    Some people like to bash the West and our tradition of critical thinking and skepticism but perhaps these things are God's gift to humanity and not the curses some people make them out to be.

 Beyond that i have thought of just being an "emergent christian" and non churchgoer but honestly i think my spiritual life would suffer, so this is why I want to becom Orthodox.  Most people don't agree with everything their church does, how would one more person like me make much difference?
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« Reply #190 on: May 14, 2011, 09:18:06 PM »

I left one of the forerunner churches in the emergent movement. The voice behind the currtain is extremely unimpressive.
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« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2011, 10:06:03 PM »

Quote
i think my spiritual life would suffer, so this is why I want to becom Orthodox.  Most people don't agree with everything their church does, how would one more person like me make much difference?
Your spiritual life will suffer IF you are having premarital sex. Period. And you are not just disagreeing with whether we should have pews, or the style of icons. You are disagreeing with a MAJOR tenet within Christianity, not just Orthodoxy. You cannot bear fruit if you are having premarital sex. I ask again:
Quote
Daedelus1138 have you spoken with your Priest about these issues? Why become Orthodox if you never intend to follow the strict moral code that Orthodoxy upholds?
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2011, 12:02:42 AM »

And for what its worth, I don't view sex without the oppenness to love as being responsible behavior.
Do you believe that such non-committal love is something Christ would have advocated? Keeping in mind that He is the self-same Word who spoke to the Prophets Hosea, Isaiah, etc.
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W.A.Mozart
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« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2011, 07:00:08 PM »

THAT is why I want to be Orthodox.  Not because i think St. So-and-So's thoughts on human sexuality are infallible eternal truth, but because I believe in the Nicene Creed and the 7 Ecumenical Councils expresses the catholic Faith.  I also happen to think the Eastern understanding of "the atonement" and salvation is, on the whole, more relevent to the modern world than the western juridical tradition (otherwise i might be Anglican, and there's still some Anglicans that worship at the feet of the Reformation). 
my dear brother,you are a greater orthodox than you think... I happen to live in the othodox country and I see that people like to be given recipes and not to use their freedom (freedom in Christ,of course)-if a saint said something-it is true... that is because the mind of the majority of christians wants patterns and not freedom.Freedom is dangerous and the masks of the rules give us security-that is how they think...

and I will remind you of the words of st.Isaac the Syrian -When you step on the path of the righteousness,you will know that freedom is everything

God bless u from Serbia...





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« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2011, 07:05:58 PM »

And where, in any of the writings of the Fathers, in any of the books of the scriptures, or in any of the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods is 'freedom in Christ' defined as freedom to disobey the teachings of Christ and His Church?
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« Reply #195 on: May 15, 2011, 07:25:17 PM »

And where, in any of the writings of the Fathers, in any of the books of the scriptures, or in any of the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods is 'freedom in Christ' defined as freedom to disobey the teachings of Christ and His Church?
One always has freedom to disobey the teachings of Christ and His Church. One doesn't have license to do so.
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« Reply #196 on: May 16, 2011, 03:51:35 AM »

And where, in any of the writings of the Fathers, in any of the books of the scriptures, or in any of the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods is 'freedom in Christ' defined as freedom to disobey the teachings of Christ and His Church?

we already made a clear distinction between the fathers and the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods- the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods do not talk about the private life of christians-they mostly talk about dogmatics... sex does not have to be a destructive force before the marriage-it can also be destructive in the marriage-its a thing of our intimacy...   my bishop says that sex without love is a masturbation for two...

please note that I am not saying that premerital sex is obligatory- in our world,teenagers have sex earlier than ever -if premarital sex was a condition for better marriage-marriages would be perfect,which they are not.What i am saying is that you cant be exclusive and one-sided and say that premarital sex is a sin... because (now I ask you) where in the bible can you find a sentence claming that sex is a sin-we only see that fornication and adultery are sins...  sex is an understatment ... there is only love or fornication...we choose from these 2
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« Reply #197 on: May 16, 2011, 06:36:54 AM »

In the ancient world, people did get married earlier. It probably was not so hard to wait if the average age at first marriage was sometime in the teens. However, today, the dangers of sexual activity outside of a committed relationship (marriage) have increased. Waiting is not easy. However, if you don't wait, it's certainly not all fun and games.
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« Reply #198 on: May 16, 2011, 10:42:23 AM »

Morality is not relative, and it cannot be divorced from dogma. The two have always been together, from the time of the holy apostles.
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« Reply #199 on: May 16, 2011, 12:02:28 PM »

THAT is why I want to be Orthodox.  Not because i think St. So-and-So's thoughts on human sexuality are infallible eternal truth, but because I believe in the Nicene Creed and the 7 Ecumenical Councils expresses the catholic Faith.  I also happen to think the Eastern understanding of "the atonement" and salvation is, on the whole, more relevent to the modern world than the western juridical tradition (otherwise i might be Anglican, and there's still some Anglicans that worship at the feet of the Reformation). 
my dear brother,you are a greater orthodox than you think... I happen to live in the othodox country and I see that people like to be given recipes and not to use their freedom (freedom in Christ,of course)-if a saint said something-it is true... that is because the mind of the majority of christians wants patterns and not freedom.Freedom is dangerous and the masks of the rules give us security-that is how they think...

and I will remind you of the words of st.Isaac the Syrian -When you step on the path of the righteousness,you will know that freedom is everything

God bless u from Serbia...


Wow so you think you're own knowledge surpasses that of the Holy Fathers? What they got it wrong and the Orthodox world has just blindly been following some crazies? To be truly free one must reject all freedom and become a slave to all. Having sex before marriage and sinning doesn't make you free, it makes you a slave to those sins.
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« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2011, 06:36:26 PM »

 for out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks... fathers are not crazy but they werent proclaimed HOLY because of what they spoke and because they never said anything wrong... the things which are not negotiable in the church are the dogmats e.g. one cannot say that God is not the holy trinity and call himself a christian... on the other hand,the opinion of every father,priest,bishop etc. which is not a dogmatic opinion of the Church is only their opinion and we can discuss about it/them.It doesnt mean that they are not important(opinions) -they are often very important but we can talk about them and analyze them.

About the fathers... how did God let ...

- st.Gregory of Nyssa talk about his belief in apocatastasis?
-st. Irineos talk about chiliasm?
- st. Justin talk about the subordination of the Holy Trinity?
-st. John of Damascus talk using the ancient greek philosophy and Aristotle and to put those writings into a book called"An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith"?




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« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2011, 06:45:30 PM »

and one more thing...

"And  even that man has not sinned, again would the Son of God become flesh (man)." -Saint Maxim the Confessor.

"If man hadn't sinned,the son of God would not become flesh (man)." Saint Augustine.

Both proclaimed saints by the Church : )

p.s. once again,I'm not saying this to make fun of the fathers(God forbid! ) but to show what I have already said-fathers are not infallible...    is infallible
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« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2011, 07:14:47 PM »

There is a difference between taking one quote of a Father and parading it around as infallible vs. there being a giant consensus throughout the life of the Church that premarital sex is not how God intended us to use sex. In this discussion, the latter is the case.
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« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2011, 07:31:08 PM »

"And  even that man has not sinned, again would the Son of God become flesh (man)." -Saint Maxim the Confessor.

"If man hadn't sinned,the son of God would not become flesh (man)." Saint Augustine.

Both proclaimed saints by the Church : )

This is pure speculation, the fact is we did and He did and that is reality. What the Church teaches about human sexuality is not speculation based on a non-existent "what if".
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« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2011, 07:35:45 PM »

A person can repent and overcome their sins. This does not mean that the sins they used to do, suddenly, magically become things that were never sinful to begin with.
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« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2011, 10:20:00 PM »

we already made a clear distinction between the fathers and the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods- the decrees of the Ecumenical Synods do not talk about the private life of christians-they mostly talk about dogmatics...
If this is the case, how can you possibly claim that their silence on the matter is a license for fornication?

I suppose that Arius, Nestorius or Eutyches could have claimed the same thing as you are claiming. No Ecumenical Synod had yet to anathematize their heresies, either. But they were still heresies. Still wrong. Arianism, Nestorianism and Monophysitism (note that I'm referring to Eutyches and not the OO) were wrong even before the Synods condemned them, as their heretical nature is clear from tradition and scripture. In the same way, fornication is wrong and will always be wrong even if no Ecumenical Synod ever decrees it.
Quote
What i am saying is that you cant be exclusive and one-sided and say that premarital sex is a sin... because (now I ask you) where in the bible can you find a sentence claming that sex is a sin-we only see that fornication and adultery are sins...  sex is an understatment ... there is only love or fornication...we choose from these 2
"Fornication" IS premarital sex, and you yourself just admitted that the Bible condemns fornication.

I'll give credence to your belief if you can name one single Father who professed it.
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« Reply #206 on: May 17, 2011, 03:37:21 PM »

no,their silence is a sign that tells me it is something which I myself must settle within my inner being with the help of God... it is a personal decision...

About your interpretation of "Fornication" (being a premarital sex ) I dont want to go any further because we clearly have a different experience of love in Jesus Christ,our Lord... I will just say that monks in  mount Athos often say that-nothing is wrong by itself.What is wrong is a misuse or abuse of the function God intended for the specific thing,phenomenon or function.  Grin  of course,u can always say that premerital sex is the misuse... and that would mean that u know the hearts of people who have that kind of sex

God bless  angel
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« Reply #207 on: May 17, 2011, 03:46:31 PM »

I will just say that monks in  mount Athos often say that-nothing is wrong by itself.What is wrong is a misuse or abuse of the function God intended for the specific thing,phenomenon or function.  Grin  of course,u can always say that premerital sex is the misuse... and that would mean that u know the hearts of people who have that kind of sex

God bless  angel
Logical conclusion: We can't know the hearts of rapists, so we have no way of knowing if their actions are a misuse of sexuality or not.
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« Reply #208 on: May 17, 2011, 03:54:08 PM »

Mozart, are you having premarital sex? It is likely that you are. At least it seems so based on your arguments. And I don't need to know the hearts of others engaging in premarital sex. If they think what they are doing is holy and acceptable before God, they are completely deluded. Name one Orthodox saint that argued for sex OUTSIDE marriage.
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« Reply #209 on: May 17, 2011, 04:49:11 PM »

it is something which I myself must settle within my inner being with the help of God... it is a personal decision...


That is a trap. With this kind of thinking we can justify any kind of behavior. Of course, perhaps you are a better and stronger person than I, but as human beings we generally have the fatal tendency to be able to rationalize anything, if it's what we want to do. We say to ourselves, "there's really nothing wrong with (insert favorite sin here) because I've made the personal decision that it's ok. Surely God wants me to be happy and do what I want to do." God does want us to be happy but He knows what will bring us true happiness.
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« Reply #210 on: May 17, 2011, 04:53:58 PM »

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and save us.

Premarital sex and masturbation are forms of fornication. We are to flee from sexual immorality.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
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« Reply #211 on: May 17, 2011, 04:55:43 PM »

I'm quite surprised by how many new posters have been generated by this thread. This thread should be renamed to:
I have premarital sex and need to justify my actions because I want to do what I want to do.
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« Reply #212 on: May 17, 2011, 05:01:36 PM »

I'm quite surprised by how many new posters have been generated by this thread. This thread should be renamed to:
I have premarital sex and need to justify my actions because I want to do what I want to do.

Frank's song comes to mind: My way.

"I'll do it my way." This is a very self-centered song which shows the age in which we are in.
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« Reply #213 on: May 17, 2011, 05:07:10 PM »

it is something which I myself must settle within my inner being with the help of God... it is a personal decision...


That is a trap. With this kind of thinking we can justify any kind of behavior. Of course, perhaps you are a better and stronger person than I, but as human beings we generally have the fatal tendency to be able to rationalize anything, if it's what we want to do. We say to ourselves, "there's really nothing wrong with (insert favorite sin here) because I've made the personal decision that it's ok. Surely God wants me to be happy and do what I want to do." God does want us to be happy but He knows what will bring us true happiness.
Katherine is so right on here. I struggled for a long time coming to grips with the real implications of being a Christian, coming to grips with the fact that if I wanted to truly be a follower of Christ, to invite him into my life, and experience all of the blessings that come with that, I needed to let go of many of my desires. I see too many people bounce around for years in this very trap, and I've seen tragedy come of it. To know Christ, but not to consistently obey Him and His church, can be worse than not knowing Him, in my experience.
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« Reply #214 on: May 17, 2011, 05:09:07 PM »

For those poor souls who may be peeking in on this conversation wondering what on earth is going on, let me clarify one thing:

It is the unquestioned belief of the Orthodox Church (Eastern, Oriental, and Old Calendarists alike) that the only context proper for sexual activity is within marriage.  While we affirm and acknowledge the age-old Judeo-Christian prohibition on sex outside of marriage, and indeed see sex outside of marriage as missing the mark (literally amartia, sin) of human life according to God's plan and command, we also proclaim Christ crucified and Resurrected who came to save us from our sin, and we thus declare that no sin can doom us eternally if we choose to repent in this life.  For those who have had sexual relations outside of marriage (either premarital, or extramarital), there is forgiveness and new life waiting for you in Christ.  For those who wish to justify a life of pre/extramarital sexual activity, be warned that leading others astray compounds one sin with the other (premarital sex) - but there can be forgiveness and new life for you also.

Thank you.
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« Reply #215 on: May 17, 2011, 05:11:44 PM »

no,their silence is a sign that tells me it is something which I myself must settle within my inner being with the help of God... it is a personal decision...

We are deluded if we think that our "personal decisions" do not affect others.  I try and convince myself frequently that certain lifestyle decisions are "personal decisions" that must only be settled "between me and God."  This belief was no less false before I was married than it is after marriage (with two children to boot).
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« Reply #216 on: May 17, 2011, 05:17:29 PM »

I'm quite surprised by how many new posters have been generated by this thread. This thread should be renamed to:
I have premarital sex and need to justify my actions because I want to do what I want to do.
"When you are feeling fit and the sun is shining and you do not want to believe that the whole universe is a mere mechanical dance of atoms, it is nice to be able to think of this great mysterious force rolling on through the centuries and carrying you on it's crest. If, on the other hand, you want to do something rather shabby, the Life-Force, being only a blind force, with no morals and no mind, will never interfere with you like that troublesome God we learned about when we were children. You can switch it on when you want, but it will not bother you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Is the Life-Force the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has yet seen?"
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This, to me, is the end result of the kind of reasoning that is going on here.
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« Reply #217 on: May 17, 2011, 05:31:23 PM »

We are deluded if we think that our "personal decisions" do not affect others.  I try and convince myself frequently that certain lifestyle decisions are "personal decisions" that must only be settled "between me and God."  This belief was no less false before I was married than it is after marriage (with two children to boot).

your statement has no place in the experience of living Christ and his body in the divine liturgy because my personal decisions are those of me and Christ... as for the others,I thought the aim of this topis was to change our experiences in Christ about the topic and not to preach and  save souls... once again I ll tell you and I wont repeat-the main problem is the belief that the fathers are infallible in every aspect of their teaching... however,this does not degrade them,which some may think... 
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« Reply #218 on: May 17, 2011, 05:36:39 PM »

Mozart if you are trying to say that premarital sex is OK based on your relationship and how you have come
to know Christ, then I must say you are following a demon NOT Christ. Look up the word "prelest" if you need to...
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« Reply #219 on: May 17, 2011, 06:16:26 PM »

It is the difference between wishing you had been able to have something, and having it and losing it. I was married for a decade before my husband was deployed the first time. Not to mention the fact that I was a single parent of 2-4 children during those deployments.

  I don't see this as comparable and i'm not sure how I can see what you are saying as anything but an attempt to devalue my feelings.   The issue for me is not just lust so much as  its feeling alienated from other human beings, yet wanting at the same time to live a Christian life  where i'm suppossed to love these people i can barely identify with.  Feeling robbed, cheated, angry, humiliated, and devalued are things i struggle with alot.  People like you have the nerve to whine about a few years of seperation...   You simply do not understand what it is like to live with asperger's and feel the brokeness of the world so severely.

 I think Aki is the only one so far that has really grasped where i am comming from...
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« Reply #220 on: May 17, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »

We are deluded if we think that our "personal decisions" do not affect others.  I try and convince myself frequently that certain lifestyle decisions are "personal decisions" that must only be settled "between me and God."  This belief was no less false before I was married than it is after marriage (with two children to boot).

your statement has no place in the experience of living Christ and his body in the divine liturgy because my personal decisions are those of me and Christ... as for the others,I thought the aim of this topis was to change our experiences in Christ about the topic and not to preach and  save souls... once again I ll tell you and I wont repeat-the main problem is the belief that the fathers are infallible in every aspect of their teaching... however,this does not degrade them,which some may think... 

This is Protestant thinking at its best. Everything is a 'personal choice' that is made between you and God; that ultimately faith is a private matter. Sorry but Christian life is to be lived within a community. You can't hide inside yourself and expect to find the truth. As I've heard "We're saved together, but damned alone."
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« Reply #221 on: May 17, 2011, 06:25:31 PM »

It is the difference between wishing you had been able to have something, and having it and losing it. I was married for a decade before my husband was deployed the first time. Not to mention the fact that I was a single parent of 2-4 children during those deployments.

  I don't see this as comparable and i'm not sure how I can see what you are saying as anything but an attempt to devalue my feelings.   The issue for me is not just lust so much as  its feeling alienated from other human beings, yet wanting at the same time to live a Christian life  where i'm suppossed to love these people i can barely identify with.  Feeling robbed, cheated, and angry are things i struggle with alot.  People like you have the nerve to whine about a few years of seperation...   You simply do not understand what it is like to live with asperger's and feel the brokeness of the world so severely.

I highly doubt Quinault was trying to devalue what you said, she is almost always more than kind. I'm just surprised to see you trying to throw out Asperger's as an excuse to engage in premartial relations. Do you really think that is the answer to you feeling robbed, cheated, and angry? I guarantee if you live you that life you will be left feeling even more angry, even more robbed, even more cheated. And I know this from expeirence unfortunately. Without Christ and His commandments no one will find happiness. I'd like to quote the Eagles, "Every form of refuge has its price."
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« Reply #222 on: May 17, 2011, 06:29:58 PM »

This is Protestant thinking at its best. Everything is a 'personal choice' that is made between you and God; that ultimately faith is a private matter. Sorry but Christian life is to be lived within a community. You can't hide inside yourself and expect to find the truth. As I've heard "We're saved together, but damned alone."

   Not everything "Protestant" is evil, its time to throw that out.   Taken to an extreme the attitude you are suggesting leads to denial of personal responsibility found in every totalitarian ideology and movement.  How many people at Nuremberg pleaded that they were "only following orders"?  Most certainly we should be listening to our inner conscience over the voices of any man (or woman) we are lead to believe is in error, no matter what title they have for themselves.  

 And at the final judgement before God, we will most certainly be judged as individual persons, not as groups.  Other people cannot answer for our sins and failures beyond their participation in those sins, we have to do that ourselves.  So i don't see how it isn't ultimately between "us and God" really.  Anything else doesn't respect human freedom.
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« Reply #223 on: May 17, 2011, 06:42:43 PM »

I highly doubt Quinault was trying to devalue what you said, she is almost always more than kind. I'm just surprised to see you trying to throw out Asperger's as an excuse to engage in premartial relations.

  You're being very presumptuous and judgemental here.   I never said I wanted to excuse anything.    You're jumping to conclusions when you think I view premarital sex as the answer to my problems.  I don't have the answer truthfully, other than to pray.   If the possibility for a loving relationship with somebody came into my life, i wouldn't turn it down though, no matter what some so-called Christian thougt about it.  Emphasis upon "loving" though.   But getting to the point i am OK with relationships of that nature may take time, it may not come at all.  I pray alot to God to deal with these feelings, i'm tempted constantly with despair.

 Frankly, the attitude of people here is... shocking.  You rush into my life to judge me and comment, instead of just listening.   There's nothing discerning about this,  you are just parroting religious ideology and presuming alot about me.

 Ordinarily I would have more humility and just remain silent but I feel this issue is beyond me as an individual, when people are ignoring my voice, I am speaking as a person with asperger's, a member of a group of people who have suffered at the hands of an indifferent and cruel world, a world presuming to do things in our name for our own good (at best), I need to speak the truth on this matter and I won't be silenced.  You do not understand, listen to my story and the story of people like me before you comment.
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« Reply #224 on: May 17, 2011, 06:43:44 PM »

This is Protestant thinking at its best. Everything is a 'personal choice' that is made between you and God; that ultimately faith is a private matter. Sorry but Christian life is to be lived within a community. You can't hide inside yourself and expect to find the truth. As I've heard "We're saved together, but damned alone."

   Not everything "Protestant" is evil, its time to throw that out.   Taken to an extreme the attitude you are suggesting leads to denial of personal responsibility found in every totalitarian ideology and movement.  How many people at Nuremberg pleaded that they were "only following orders"?  Most certainly we should be listening to our inner conscience over the voices of any man (or woman) we are lead to believe is in error, no matter what title they have for themselves.  

 And at the final judgement before God, we will most certainly be judged as individual persons, not as groups.  Other people cannot answer for our sins and failures beyond their participation in those sins, we have to do that ourselves.  So i don't see how it isn't ultimately between "us and God" really.  Anything else doesn't respect human freedom.

So you're comparing following Nazi Germany to following the teachings of the Church? I think we can clearly see one is ok while the other is not. The Church is Christ's Bride being led by the Holy Spirit so I'm pretty sure we don't need to worry about genocide  laugh Unless you don't believe the church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Correct, not everything Protestant is evil as you can see since that's not what I said. But the need to individulize everything is by no means Christ's plan and why we see much splintering in those groups. If the ultimate arbitor of what is truth is one's self then no man is wrong since he is right in his own mind. No, we need the rebuke and sheparding of the Church to guide us. Yes your sins are between you and God alone, but that doesn't mean your whole life direction and choice of right and wrong is between you and God. You don't get to make the choice what is a sin and what isn't, and that was my point.
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