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Author Topic: Prophecies of the future of Israel  (Read 2855 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 11, 2011, 11:52:42 PM »

Has there ever been any prophecies on the future of the state of Israel by either Orthodox, or Catholic Saints?  Will the Jews always remain there or will the Muslims drive them out eventually?

Curious?
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 12:04:27 AM »

Has there ever been any prophecies on the future of the state of Israel by either Orthodox, or Catholic Saints?  Will the Jews always remain there or will the Muslims drive them out eventually?

Curious?
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 12:22:35 AM »

What do Jews have to do with Israel?
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 11:04:16 AM »

I hope that my question isn't too far off topic, but, as a new-comer to Holy Orthodoxy and a recovering Protestant and if I am understanding correctly, The Church is the New Israel under the New Covenant.  That side of the coin I can explain to my friends...but am always interested in learning more.  What I struggle to explain is the more political or secular side of the nation of Israel.  Who they are.  How that nation "came to be."  And how this Protestant infatuation with them has affected our nation. I would welcome any guidance in this area or direction to sources to study for myself.  I'm willing to do the legwork if pointed in the right direction.

I have edited to add a link which I found. Is it the opinion of those more knowledgable than I that it is well-stated?http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/bible-vs-modern-israel.html

(I'm sorry. I don't know why that didn't post as a direct link.)
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 11:49:49 AM »

What I struggle to explain is the more political or secular side of the nation of Israel.  Who they are.  How that nation "came to be."  And how this Protestant infatuation with them has affected our nation.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/bible-vs-modern-israel.html
Does this help?

I know what I'm about to say doesn't answer your question. (I haven't read the article yet, but I do enjoy that blog you referenced - I think you've noticed that it is a miscellany - more informative than instructive.)

I bolded one phrase in your message. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. As a Protestant, the modern nation of Israel seemed to get lots of attention, however, as my time as an Orthodox Christian passes, it has become a non-issue with me. It seems like somebody else's business. I really don't see how that discussion will lead me to salvation.

Try asking yourself and your friends, "How is this topic going to help me/you become a better person in Christ?" I will admit it's an interesting topic in the field of politics, but not of faith.
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 12:09:09 PM »

genesisone, thank you for your reply.  I agree and have found great rest in Christ, having left that infatuation behind.  My heart breaks for my friends, with whom I wish to share this peace as they are caught up like mice in the maze of some crazed science experiment.  It is my hope that by increasing my understanding of the secular history, in conjunction with the stand of The Church that I will be, with God's mercy, better prepared to bring them to be fuller understanding which God may use to bring them to the path of Holy Orthodoxy and the same peace in which I rest. 

I confess that I LOVE the response that "God got out of the real estate business..."  I'll borrow that, no doubt!!  But, would like to back up the wonderfully tart humor with some historical background, as well as the Church's teaching in this area.  Perhaps Mystagogy's post would be very adequate if their inquiry is, indeed, genuine.
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2011, 07:02:29 PM »

What do Jews have to do with Israel?

 Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2011, 07:45:45 PM »

Leap of Faith,

This is a fascinating and quite perplexing topic.  It's one that, while attracting somewhat conspiratorially minded folks, should also be of interest to those within the faith and within the U.S.  Of course, it also branches over into politics, which we should avoid discussing on this forum.

Unfortunately, there isn't much Church teaching on this to cite, as the idea of Biblical Israel being the hybrid secular/Jewish state in the Middle East is an absurd notion.  As I'm sure you are aware, this severe misunderstanding has only really gained traction in very modern, typically American Fundamentalist circles (which of course, are the most rightestest of all of the teachings  Wink).  

I become frustrated at this view, but I should simultaneously be saddened at how misled many Christians are.  Did they miss the New Covenant message, and with it, the transference of Israel?  The May 21st Rapturists may be a very small, embarrassing minority, but the supporters of the claim that Zionist (not using in a pejorative but literal sense) nation-state is the Biblical Israel are seemingly widespread and very destructive.

I'm afraid I don't know how to better assist you on this.  There is so much misinformation out there, and people seem so firmly entrenched in their ridiculous views, reading only works which are transparently propaganda.  Of course, telling your friends that the 'real' churches have never taught anything like this won't be of any assistance either.   Cheesy

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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2011, 07:49:24 PM »

What do Jews have to do with Israel?

 Huh Huh Huh

I suspect the view that the Jews living in Isreal are not really Jews but rabbinical and Talmudic may be at the root of this.
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2011, 08:23:11 PM »

What do Jews have to do with Israel?

 Huh Huh Huh

What do Rabbinical "Jews" have to do with the Israel of the Bible?
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2011, 07:41:08 PM »

Christ is risen!
genesisone, thank you for your reply.  I agree and have found great rest in Christ, having left that infatuation behind.  My heart breaks for my friends, with whom I wish to share this peace as they are caught up like mice in the maze of some crazed science experiment.  It is my hope that by increasing my understanding of the secular history, in conjunction with the stand of The Church that I will be, with God's mercy, better prepared to bring them to be fuller understanding which God may use to bring them to the path of Holy Orthodoxy and the same peace in which I rest. 

I confess that I LOVE the response that "God got out of the real estate business..."  I'll borrow that, no doubt!!  But, would like to back up the wonderfully tart humor with some historical background, as well as the Church's teaching in this area.  Perhaps Mystagogy's post would be very adequate if their inquiry is, indeed, genuine.
As the Lord said to the Samaritan women "will worship God neither on this mountain nor the other, but in Spirit and Truth."

The Temple was the center of the Old Covenant, but Christ said "tear down this Temple (His body) and in three days I will raise it up."

The Epistle of the Hebrews does not speak of the Temple but the Tabernacle.  The Tabernacle under the Old Covenant was only the temporary sanctuary, to be carried from the reception of the Law until they arrived in the Promised Land, where they were to build the one place of worship for all time. However, the Law cannot bring us to the True Promised Land, not Palestine but Eden.  To symbolize this Christ was baptized at the point where Israel entered Palestine, but in the Promised Land.  Hence Hebrews speaks of the Tabernacle, because in the Light of Christ the Temple is just a shadow of things to come, and passeth away.
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 12:01:42 AM »

Ultimately it is the LORD's decision.  Perhaps we just need to mind our own business
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 12:05:02 AM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
What do Rabbinical "Jews" have to do with the Israel of the Bible?

It doesn't make any more sense the second time.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 12:21:33 AM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
What do Rabbinical "Jews" have to do with the Israel of the Bible?

It doesn't make any more sense the second time.  Roll Eyes

With the added clarification, I think it does.  Rabbinical "Jews", as he describes them, are no no longer part of the Israel described in the Bible, as Israel became the Church of Christ with the New Covenant.  Their only connection is that they rejected their Messiah, and thus are no associated with Israel.

If one, however, has linked together Biblical Israel and the modern, Middle Eastern state, whether in prophecies, politics, theology, etc., then of course they have plenty to do with it.  This thread seemed to be dealing with prophecies concerning the "state of Israel", so I think it's safe to write that, in this context, they (Jews, Rabbinical "Jews", whatever) play a central role.

Does that explain it any better, or am I missing something? 
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 12:35:07 AM »

I know what he meant. I just don't believe him.  Roll Eyes Yet another "the Jews aren't the real Jews" partisan on this board. Roll Eyes (I mean DVE) Are we getting extra sunspots, or something?   Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 12:39:50 AM »

Ahh, my mistake.

But apart from the "the Jews aren't the real Jews" argument, you would agree with the assertion that current Jews (real or not  Wink) aren't part of Biblical Israel though, right?
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 12:44:06 AM »

No, I would not.
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 01:11:11 AM »

No, I would not.

Would you be willing to describe how you view the transition between the Old and New Covenant, and how Jews who did not become followers of Christ fit into that?

I'm not arguing, just curious.
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2011, 01:18:54 AM »

No, I would not.
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 10:36:00 AM »

Would this be because you have no basis in patristics and Church teaching to support this, but rather are swayed by modern day political correctness and Protestant eschatological theology?
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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 08:36:20 PM »

No and no. I'm not even Protestant.  Roll Eyes There can be more reasons for things than just the ones you'd think.
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 06:14:07 AM »

the Jews aren't the real Jews

If the "Catholics" are not the real Catholics, then it can't be inherently ridiculous to suggest that the "Jews" are not the real Jews just because they are commonly called such.
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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2011, 06:13:42 PM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

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« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2011, 06:42:41 PM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

primuspilus.
Indeed pray for the conversion of all, but be wary of backing the Jews. Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

St. John Chrysostom : "The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion."

Indeed, this sounds very harsh to our modern, ecumenist ears, but should nonetheless be heeded.
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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2011, 07:03:30 PM »

Christ's murderers you say? Why sir that is you and I an all men as well as the Jews.
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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 07:05:13 PM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

primuspilus.

Primuspilus,

OK, I can see that.

If we are to evaluate the mindset of Christian Zionism- and I mean this as an academic exercize, then we can say that the Promise is seen as a blessing of keeping the covenant along with other blessings, like the Messiah. So it seems like whether the blessings of the promise are to be bestowed depends on whether you see those on one side of the covenant as upholding their end of the bargain.

In other words, if you do believe that the promise of the land refers to just one ethnicity getting just one little piece of land, then there are two questions:

(1) Are the blessings from the promise only supposed to come when one side is upholding their side of the covenant?
(2) If so, is that covenant being upheld on both sides?

Also from the Christian Zionist viewpoint, what kind of state is supposed to be built exactly?
Would it be good if it recreated or strongly oriented itself toward the religious system of the 1st century that disagreed with Christianity?
If so, why is it important that the state takes this kind of religious view?

Another issue is the fact that the C.Z. system limits the Jewish people to those Jews who maintained the religious identity. Yet in fact, there are large numbers of Christian and Muslim people, especially Palestinians, who are of Jewish ethnicity.

So I think there are alot of issues that the typical C.Z. ideas don't take into account that change the picture.

And finally, one point that delegitimizes C.Z., so to speak, is that the big C.Z. groups refuse to evangelize, even though they think that the C.Z. movement is promoting some kind of end times situation where the supposed beneficiaries of their system would actually be punished for their failure to be evangelized. Considering all these issues, the C.Z. movement doesn't make sense when taken on its own terms.

I mean, how would you feel if a group like the CZs wanted to help Orthodoxy so that it could be destroyed or something?
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 07:17:50 PM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

primuspilus.

The real question is not whether they are 'Jews'... Even if they were 'Jews' -

The question is: Are they Israelites? Are 'Jews' Israel?

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
- Romans 9:6-9

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," Who is Christ.

(...)

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
- Galatians 3:16-29


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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 07:43:41 PM »

All good points.

Since we're on the topic of acedemic exercises....
I also see that the land of Israel, in my opinion based on the history rightfully belongs to the herirs of those who were betrayed by the muslims during the ejection of the Byzantines....and then again by the Crusaders.....and then again by the Ayyubids who made being Jewish very difficult, and nearly impossible by forcing a tax "People of the Book" on them and Christians as well. The Palestinians were not originally an ethnic group but became that but the various interlopers coming to the Levant throughout history.

I agree that nobody deserves to be a people without a homeland (like the Rom..even though they're mainly by their actions) but Israel, I believe rightfully belongs to the heirs of those ancient Jews legally speaking.

Although I am admittedly biased for the State of Israel, I am not what would be considered a Zionist by any stretch. Personally I feel myself becoming more detached to that view the deeper as I go into Orthodoxy, not forming an anti-jewish mindset, but simply as they have nothing to do with my faith and it is becoming more asinine to waste precious time on folks that deny my Lord, other than praying for them to come to Jesus.

Quote
(1) Are the blessings from the promise only supposed to come when one side is upholding their side of the covenant?
(2) If so, s that covenant being upheld on both sides?

Both good questions. My opinions are below:

1: The Old Testament makes it pretty clear that when the Israelites disobeyed God that he withdrew his hand from them (references arent really needed as Im sure we can think of MORE than a few examples)
2: This one is a little tougher considering Jesus' statements about the New Covenant. It can be easily argued that the New Covenant was an addendum to the Old Covenant in stating that Christians are looked at as God looked at the Jews in the Old Testament; that being that all Christians are sealed away as his special people as the Israelites once held that singular distinction. If this is so, then Christians would be the heirs to the holy places and the land itself.
It can also be argued that the New Covenant made the Old one invalid which means that the heirs to the ancient israelites (and by proxy, my aforementioned beliefs concerning israel) are invalid and that the Jews of today have no special right to the land as a Christian would see it....

To me, either flavor you want it, except by the blade of the the Muslim, they had no right to it whatsoever, and I would say that those Palestinians that live on the land NOW do belong there as they have had familial attachments to it....kind of how the US has Texas Smiley

EDIT: I think I just got busted by my boss Smiley groove-tastic

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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »

All good points.

Since we're on the topic of acedemic exercises....
I also see that the land of Israel, in my opinion based on the history rightfully belongs to the herirs of those who were betrayed by the muslims during the ejection of the Byzantines....and then again by the Crusaders.....and then again by the Ayyubids who made being Jewish very difficult, and nearly impossible by forcing a tax "People of the Book" on them and Christians as well. The Palestinians were not originally an ethnic group but became that but the various interlopers coming to the Levant throughout history.

I agree that nobody deserves to be a people without a homeland (like the Rom..even though they're mainly by their actions) but Israel, I believe rightfully belongs to the heirs of those ancient Jews legally speaking.

Although I am admittedly biased for the State of Israel, I am not what would be considered a Zionist by any stretch. Personally I feel myself becoming more detached to that view the deeper as I go into Orthodoxy, not forming an anti-jewish mindset, but simply as they have nothing to do with my faith and it is becoming more asinine to waste precious time on folks that deny my Lord, other than praying for them to come to Jesus.

Quote
(1) Are the blessings from the promise only supposed to come when one side is upholding their side of the covenant?
(2) If so, s that covenant being upheld on both sides?

Both good questions. My opinions are below:

1: The Old Testament makes it pretty clear that when the Israelites disobeyed God that he withdrew his hand from them (references arent really needed as Im sure we can think of MORE than a few examples)
2: This one is a little tougher considering Jesus' statements about the New Covenant. It can be easily argued that the New Covenant was an addendum to the Old Covenant in stating that Christians are looked at as God looked at the Jews in the Old Testament; that being that all Christians are sealed away as his special people as the Israelites once held that singular distinction. If this is so, then Christians would be the heirs to the holy places and the land itself.
It can also be argued that the New Covenant made the Old one invalid which means that the heirs to the ancient israelites (and by proxy, my aforementioned beliefs concerning israel) are invalid and that the Jews of today have no special right to the land as a Christian would see it....

To me, either flavor you want it, except by the blade of the the Muslim, they had no right to it whatsoever, and I would say that those Palestinians that live on the land NOW do belong there as they have had familial attachments to it....kind of how the US has Texas Smiley

Nice.

Personally, the idea of Zionism when taken at face value seems fine- the idea of the Jewish people returning to their homeland like other peoples.
But as your thinking shows, the movement has taken on added qualities.

First, the fact that it's not just a people returning to a land, but building a government based on one ethnicity.
Second, the issue of Palestinians and Jews claiming the same exact land
Third, that Palestinians are to a big extent actually of Jewish ethnicity, yet the ideology sees them as outsiders.
Fourth, what seems to be an unrecognized religious source that makes things alot deeper. If you are OK with this religious foundation, then everything looks cool of course. But for religious minorities I can see a problem.

Another issue is the fact that we are talking about other people- Jews and Palestinians- that have been sometimes strongly oppressed. Not to mention the fact that they are also monotheists and we must avoid arrogance based on such religious differences like St Paul says. But if we believe that a strongly religious or nationalist-oriented, dominant society have caused oppression in the past, doesn't our conscience demand that we recognize this even where we would like to think it couldn't happen?

What do you think?

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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 11:40:21 PM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

primuspilus.
Indeed pray for the conversion of all, but be wary of backing the Jews. Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

St. John Chrysostom : "The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion."

Indeed, this sounds very harsh to our modern, ecumenist ears, but should nonetheless be heeded.

St. John Chrysostom's words remind me of things I've heard from Brother Nathanael Kapner of Real Zionist News. Is this viewpoint pervasive in Eastern Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 11:46:24 PM »

Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

The people who physically executed Christ are dead, and they weren't Jews, they were Roman soldiers.

Also, we have all killed Christ. Including St. John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2011, 12:30:04 AM »

Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

The people who physically executed Christ are dead, and they weren't Jews, they were Roman soldiers.

Also, we have all killed Christ. Including St. John Chrysostom.

According to our Lord, a person who agrees with and acts like earlier evildoers can inherit their guilt:

29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'
31"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation (Matthew 23:29-35 NKJV).


So we must ask how many Jews alive today agree with the Jewish religious leaders who plotted our Lord's unjust crucifixion.

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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2011, 03:06:19 AM »

The way I see it is that the Lord promised the Israelites the Promised Land. Whether or not folks think that the current legal inhabitants are Jews or not does not matter to me. They havent been proven that they're not, and they are the heirs to that promise, so I'll back the Jews until such time as I can not. I just pray they come to Christ.

primuspilus.
Indeed pray for the conversion of all, but be wary of backing the Jews. Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

St. John Chrysostom : "The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion."

Indeed, this sounds very harsh to our modern, ecumenist ears, but should nonetheless be heeded.

St. John Chrysostom's words remind me of things I've heard from Brother Nathanael Kapner of Real Zionist News. Is this viewpoint pervasive in Eastern Orthodoxy?
Very much so. While many "Orthodox" modernists will deny it, this understanding of Judaism has been consistently taught and believed throughout the ages. While Orthodoxy expresses complete and total love towards the Jews (no matter how many times they try to destroy the Church), it does not fear to reveal Truth. You will hear a lot of opinions regarding this subject, but for the best representation of Orthodoxy, ask the people who know it best - the saints.
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2011, 03:13:55 AM »

Christ's murderers you say? Why sir that is you and I an all men as well as the Jews.

Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

The people who physically executed Christ are dead, and they weren't Jews, they were Roman soldiers.

Also, we have all killed Christ. Including St. John Chrysostom.
Christ died for all men, but that does not make us murders. The Jews carry that guilt (" His blood be on us, and on our children"). Do you have any patristic writings to support your view? Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2011, 09:05:17 PM »

Christ died for all men, but that does not make us murders. The Jews carry that guilt (" His blood be on us, and on our children"). Do you have any patristic writings to support your view? Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I'm familiar with this imprecatory prayer. Though most of the Jews prayed it who were present for our Lord's trial and crucifixion, a minority did not, including His mother, disciples, and other supporters. This means that not all Jewish children have been cursed.

Something else: the children may be determined spiritually instead of biologically. In 1 Peter 3:6, for instance, we see that Sarah's daughters or children are determined by whether they do well without being afraid foolishly. Likewise, the accursed children would be those who take after the Pharisees who maligned and persecuted our Lord. A Jew who believes and repents can avoid this curse, and a Gentile who adopts the Pharisees' ways can inherit it.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2011, 10:42:44 AM »

Oy vej....here we go again...down the rabbit hole. It seems to me that it is far more productive to worry ourselves about our own salvation rather than engage in this endless discussion.
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2011, 10:47:51 AM »

Oy vej....here we go again...down the rabbit hole. It seems to me that it is far more productive to worry ourselves about our own salvation rather than engage in this endless discussion.

Agreed. I think if Alice's white rabbit is conducting people down the rabbit hole here for this particular discussion he should be on triple time and be due for a long and lengthy holiday soon.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2011, 10:56:39 AM »

Oy vej....here we go again...down the rabbit hole. It seems to me that it is far more productive to worry ourselves about our own salvation rather than engage in this endless discussion.

Agreed. I think if Alice's white rabbit is conducting people down the rabbit hole here for this particular discussion he should be on triple time and be due for a long and lengthy holiday soon.



LOLz

Matthes,

It is nice having you here. I wouldn't get too worried about. Fr Hopko, an Orthodox scholar takes the view that the Roman government, and thus the gentiles were also responsible, and also mentioned a passage saying that afterwards, the Holy Spirit came down and cleansed Jerusalem.
Plus, the quote about Jesus' blood being on people doesn't seem only bad for the descendants in my view, because I can see an analogy to the cleansing lamb's blood in Yom Kippur. Your analysis is OK.
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2011, 07:20:46 PM »

Christ's murders are not to be trusted.

The people who physically executed Christ are dead, and they weren't Jews, they were Roman soldiers.

Also, we have all killed Christ. Including St. John Chrysostom.

We have not "all killed Christ". That - is ridiculous.

Did we "all" stone St. Stephen? Did we "all" behead St. John the Baptist?

"In 41 AD, when Agrippa I, who already possessed the territory of Antipas and Phillip, obtained the power of procurator in Judea, hence re-forming the Kingdom of Herod, he was reportedly eager to endear himself to his Jewish (Pharisaic) subjects and continued the persecution in which James the lesser lost his life, Peter narrowly escaped and the rest of the apostles took flight."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians


Was Agrippa eager to endear himself to all of us?

Did we all murder Blessed New Martyr Philoumenos of Jacob's Well too?

I don't think so.

'Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again."
- Matthew 20:17-19

'So they cried out again, "Crucify Him!" '
- Mark 15:13

'Then Pilate said to them, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, "Crucify Him!" '
- Mark 15:14

'But they shouted, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" '
- Luke 23:21

'Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him." '
- John 19:6

'But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!" '
- John 19:15

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the Churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost."
- I Thessalonians 2:14-16


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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2011, 07:44:44 PM »

No and no. I'm not even Protestant.  Roll Eyes There can be more reasons for things than just the ones you'd think.

I tend to belong to the "Christians are the real Jews" camp, but I am really curious as to your reasons for believing as you do, biro.

I'd be grateful for a PM if you aren't willing to discuss your stance here -- no pressure, either way.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2011, 08:17:40 PM »

I tend to belong to the "Christians are the real Jews" camp

You mean the Orthodox and Apostolic Christianity camp?
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2011, 10:14:05 PM »

I tend to belong to the "Christians are the real Jews" camp

You mean the Orthodox and Apostolic Christianity camp?

Well, I am a bit of a dilletante so hesitate to declare that the scripture and the fathers are on my side but it's good to hear it declared by someone else that I'm not "doing it wrong", to use an internet-ism.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2011, 10:50:19 PM »

 Grin I know.  I was a bit boorish with that, but I previously (and politely) asked her for her reasons and received a somewhat rude reply. 

Simultaneously, I didn't want the ambiguity to linger.  I think a lot of damage has been done by people having new interpretations (Evangos) or, for some reason, being frightened to proclaim the traditional understanding (more mainstream Protestants, RCs, Unitarians and the like). 
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2011, 11:07:20 PM »

O My people, what have I done to you? How have I wearied you? I gave light to your blind and cleansed your lepers; I raised the man from his bed.

O My people, what have I done to you? How have you repaid Me? Instead of manna, you gave Me gall; instead of loving Me, you nailed Me to the cross.

I can endure no more. I will call the Gentiles, and they will glorify Me with the Father and the Spirit; and I shall give them eternal life.

- Holy Friday Matins
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2011, 12:52:21 AM »

They havent been proven that they're not

The NT is fairly clear on the matter of Christians being the real Jews and the Church being the real Israel.
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