Poll

Both r apostilic church,so why still a big fuss in allowing this marriage.the RC church apparentely punishes the parents of the bride or groom if the weds in an orthodox parish,is this not a barbarian stone age rule?

the marriage should be allowed
1 (33.3%)
the cathloic church should change their attitude to the fellow churches,otherwise it will land up like the communist party of USSR
2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: May 11, 2011, 04:42:55 PM

Author Topic: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage  (Read 7314 times)

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Offline sinjuvarghese

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indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« on: April 11, 2011, 04:42:55 PM »
Both The indian orthodox and the roman catholic church areapostilic church,so why still a big fuss in allowing this marriage.the RC church apparentely punishes the parents of the bride or groom if the weds in an orthodox parish,is this not a barbarian stone age rule? and the funniest thing is that it happens only in kearala,india.it dosen't even happens in rome or any parts of europe.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 04:45:44 PM »
What kind of punishment are we talking about here?

As for stone age barbarians, I suspect Catholic-Orthodox intermarriage was a problem that didn't concern them much.
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Offline sinjuvarghese

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 05:02:57 PM »
the catholic fraction bans the brieds or the grooms parents from the church for six months,after the punishment period they have to appoligise in front of all the parish memembers.the the prist decides some punishment,like(make the walk around the church  etc etc).dont u think that this is brutal and barbarism.is this what christ thaught?should christans be like this?

Offline Salpy

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 10:31:36 PM »
Sounds like the parents should just convert to the Indian Orthodox Church.   :)

Welcome to the forum, Sinju!

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 12:21:29 AM »
Good grief. No, the Roman church is not Apostolic.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 12:52:39 AM »
Good grief. No, the Roman church is not Apostolic.

It looks like your hardliner brand of Non-Chaledonianism has once again proved to be nonexistent among the typical Oriental faithful.

Oh, and the second choice on the poll is fantastic.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 12:53:30 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 01:03:23 AM »
It looks like your hardliner brand of Non-Chaledonianism has once again proved to be nonexistent among the typical Oriental faithful.

I've never suggested otherwise. I think I have actually acknowledged a number of times on here that the typical OO believer is a doctrinal deviant.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 01:04:51 AM »
Also, with what percent of EO acknowledge that the Roman church is not Apostolic, I wasn't aware that this qualified as a "hard-liner" opinion.  ::)

Offline kazakage

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2011, 02:06:07 AM »
Are you sure thts the case?

We have an agreement with the Catholic church on weddings.it should be okay. I know many Orthodox guys who have married catholic gals and all r well. ;D

ps. But then Syrian Catholics didnt encourage marriage even with Latin catholics:) So even if such happens, it should come of no surprise..

Offline kazakage

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 02:13:56 AM »
Agreement btw Catholic church and Syriac Orthodox:

http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/agree/cath_malank_orth.shtm

I did see some news regarding Catholic- Malankara Orthodox..But i think they didnt finalise - but marriages do happen.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 05:01:22 PM »
Agreement btw Catholic church and Syriac Orthodox:

http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/agree/cath_malank_orth.shtm

I did see some news regarding Catholic- Malankara Orthodox..But i think they didnt finalise - but marriages do happen.

The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony? How awful.  :'(

Offline Michał

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 05:44:45 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 05:51:47 PM by Michał »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 06:11:49 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?

Yes! Most Coptic Bishops will tell you explicitly that the Romanists don't even have any Baptism, let alone Matrimony.

Offline Michał

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2011, 06:27:35 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?

Yes! Most Coptic Bishops will tell you explicitly that the Romanists don't even have any Baptism, let alone Matrimony.

Interesting. Thank you.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2011, 06:29:56 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?

Yes! Most Coptic Bishops will tell you explicitly that the Romanists don't even have any Baptism, let alone Matrimony.

Interesting. Thank you.

Sure.  ;)

Offline CBGardner

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
Good grief. No, the Roman church is not Apostolic.

My thoughts exactly. Plus you need more options for the poll, I can't select either.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 12:16:10 PM »
No, the Roman church is not Apostolic.

I'm going to have to agree with the non-Chalcedonian hard-liner: The Roman Church has severed its ties with the Apostles through schism and heresy.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 01:00:57 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?

Yes! Most Coptic Bishops will tell you explicitly that the Romanists don't even have any Baptism, let alone Matrimony.

None of the Coptic bishops I've met have ever said anything of the sort.

The Church does not judge the orders and sacraments of other groups. The insistance of baptising converts from Catholicism is not in any way a statement that Catholics are unbaptised, rather it is not assuming anything one way or the other. H.H. certainly receives Catholics as Christian brothers, as does every bishop I've ever heard of or encountered. In fact, Coptic Catholic converts are not rebaptised, since their baptism is by immersion, so clearly this indicates an acceptance of Catholic sacraments (how could the Coptic Catholics have valid baptism if the Roman Catholics they received their orders from were unbaptised), and merely an insistence on following the proper rites. Some Coptic clergy have even go so far as to say that there is no theological reason to rebaptise, that it is a wrong thing that stems from political motives from a period when Catholics would rebaptise converts from Coptic Orthodoxy.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 01:03:17 PM »
The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony?

Is there a single OO bishop who thinks otherwise?

Yes! Most Coptic Bishops will tell you explicitly that the Romanists don't even have any Baptism, let alone Matrimony.

None of the Coptic bishops I've met have ever said anything of the sort.

The Church does not judge the orders and sacraments of other groups. The insistance of baptising converts from Catholicism is not in any way a statement that Catholics are unbaptised, rather it is not assuming anything one way or the other. H.H. certainly receives Catholics as Christian brothers, as does every bishop I've ever heard of or encountered. In fact, Coptic Catholic converts are not rebaptised, since their baptism is by immersion, so clearly this indicates an acceptance of Catholic sacraments (how could the Coptic Catholics have valid baptism if the Roman Catholics they received their orders from were unbaptised), and merely an insistence on following the proper rites. Some Coptic clergy have even go so far as to say that there is no theological reason to rebaptise, that it is a wrong thing that stems from political motives from a period when Catholics would rebaptise converts from Coptic Orthodoxy.

Here is a quote from H.G. Bishop Youssef explicitly saying that Catholic orders are valid:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1002&catid=63

Offline Michał

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2011, 01:49:14 PM »
What Jonathan says is in accord with the practice of the Coptic Orthodox mission in Warsaw, Poland -- led, AFAIK, by a bishop* -- where RC women, wives of Coptic Orthodox men, are allowed to commune. Would the bishop allow unbaptised people to receive the Eucharist?

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Offline mike

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2011, 01:56:58 PM »
What Jonathan says is in accord with the practice of the Coptic Orthodox mission in Warsaw, Poland -- led, AFAIK, by a bishop* -- where RC women, wives of Coptic Orthodox men, are allowed to commune. Would the bishop allow unbaptised people to receive the Eucharist?

__________
* Every month, he comes to Warsaw from Germany for a couple of days.

Are they still active? Someone told me it stopped.
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2011, 02:04:40 PM »
What Jonathan says is in accord with the practice of the Coptic Orthodox mission in Warsaw, Poland -- led, AFAIK, by a bishop* -- where RC women, wives of Coptic Orthodox men, are allowed to commune. Would the bishop allow unbaptised people to receive the Eucharist?

__________
* Every month, he comes to Warsaw from Germany for a couple of days.

While I believe there is sufficient clear evidence that the Coptic Orthodox Church does not consider the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church to be graceless, does not consider RC's to be unbaptised, etc., I think it is also very clear that we are not in communion, and a practice of communing Roman Catholics who have not left the RC church and entered the Orthodox Church, is certainly not the norm, or representative of the practice of the Church.

Offline Michał

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2011, 02:08:36 PM »
Are they still active? Someone told me it stopped.

I'm sure they were two years ago. Since then it might have stopped. Maybe due to gas prices.

Offline Severian

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2012, 03:04:06 AM »
Agreement btw Catholic church and Syriac Orthodox:

http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/agree/cath_malank_orth.shtm

I did see some news regarding Catholic- Malankara Orthodox..But i think they didnt finalise - but marriages do happen.

The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony? How awful.  :'(
This is truly horrible. I am honestly going to lose sleep over this!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 03:07:30 AM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 03:04:12 AM »
Agreement btw Catholic church and Syriac Orthodox:

http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/agree/cath_malank_orth.shtm

I did see some news regarding Catholic- Malankara Orthodox..But i think they didnt finalise - but marriages do happen.

The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony? How awful.  :'(
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Here's an interesting article:

http://mgocsmdiaspora.org/blog/intermarriage-dilemma-the-orthodox-church-perspective/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 03:25:04 AM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2015, 01:21:39 PM »
Agreement btw Catholic church and Syriac Orthodox:

http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/agree/cath_malank_orth.shtm

I did see some news regarding Catholic- Malankara Orthodox..But i think they didnt finalise - but marriages do happen.

The MOSC recognizes marriages in Romanist churches as truly the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony? How awful.  :'(
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Still not able to sleep after three years?  It's a shame to lose so much sleep over something that's not true. 

Quote
Here's an interesting article:

http://mgocsmdiaspora.org/blog/intermarriage-dilemma-the-orthodox-church-perspective/

Though the writing style is informal and some of the facts presented imprecisely, this is more or less how things actually are. 
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Offline Severian

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2015, 02:47:05 PM »
^I'm short on time now, but I think the SOC does allow it. I think I remember reading a formal agreement to that effect. I'll pull it up later.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2015, 02:50:19 PM »
^I'm short on time now, but I think the SOC does allow it. I think I remember reading a formal agreement to that effect. I'll pull it up later.

When you are able to resume this, I'll be happy to read what you have to say.  In advance, I would simply clarify a couple of things:

a) The SOC =/= MOSC
b) intermarriage =/= recognition of non-Orthodox sacraments as equal to Orthodox sacraments
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2015, 04:18:47 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is there to any extent an implication of what one might call reduced sacramental efficacy in all of this?  It is difficult to find people in the middle ground who do not either favor a more broadly liberal approach like the OP, or people like Severian who favor the rejection of external sacraments altogether.

Also one may find the use of != to convey "not equals" helpful as its somewhat of a standard, at least in the geekier portions of thr Internet. 
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2015, 06:32:37 PM »
^I'm short on time now, but I think the SOC does allow it. I think I remember reading a formal agreement to that effect. I'll pull it up later.

When you are able to resume this, I'll be happy to read what you have to say.  In advance, I would simply clarify a couple of things:

a) The SOC =/= MOSC
b) intermarriage =/= recognition of non-Orthodox sacraments as equal to Orthodox sacraments
I am aware, yes.

Also, forgive me. These past few days in particular have rather s**ked. Ironically enough, severe sleep deprivation caused by circumstances outside my realm of control was a major factor.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 06:38:32 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2015, 06:54:59 PM »
Also, forgive me. These past few days in particular have rather s**ked. Ironically enough, severe sleep deprivation caused by circumstances outside my realm of control was a major factor.

Last summer I had my first real experience with insomnia.  I've had a sleepless night here and there, but never before a sleepless fortnight.  You have my unworthy and ineffective prayers. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2015, 06:56:06 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is there to any extent an implication of what one might call reduced sacramental efficacy in all of this?  It is difficult to find people in the middle ground who do not either favor a more broadly liberal approach like the OP, or people like Severian who favor the rejection of external sacraments altogether.

Also one may find the use of != to convey "not equals" helpful as its somewhat of a standard, at least in the geekier portions of thr Internet.
I too would be interested in hearing more about this issue and how it is viewed by the Asian OO. The African OO certainly do not allow their parishioners to marry outside the Orthodox Church. And as has been demonstrated earlier, the MOSC clearly does not either.

Also, I think the position I hold to is reasonable and rooted in the Patristic tradition. I am willing to stand corrected, however.

Also, forgive me. These past few days in particular have rather s**ked. Ironically enough, severe sleep deprivation caused by circumstances outside my realm of control was a major factor.

Last summer I had my first real experience with insomnia.  I've had a sleepless night here and there, but never before a sleepless fortnight.  You have my unworthy and ineffective prayers.
Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:26:26 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2015, 07:25:48 PM »
This was the statement I was referring to:

http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125socrcmarriageagmt.html

Wait editing...

Forget it, too lazy...

Anyway, I miss DVE.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:36:03 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2015, 07:48:57 PM »
From another webpage: http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125SOCRCMarriagePastoralGuide.html

Quote
Celebration of Interchurch Marriages

The liturgical minister should be the parish priest of the church where the marriage is celebrated, or his delegate from the same ecclesial communion.

There is to be no joint celebration of marriage by the ministers of both Churches. The marriage is to be blessed either by the Catholic or by the Syrian Orthodox minister. However, there could be some kind of participation at the liturgical service by the other minister, who could read a Scriptural passage or give a sermon.

On the occasion of these celebrations, the couple and any members of their families who belong to these Churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the Church where the sacrament of matrimony is being celebrated.

Proper entries must be made in the Church registers, and marriage certificates should be issued for a record to be made in the register of the other Church.
So, this sounded all well and good. It seems that if a Syriac Orthodox faithful marries a Romanist in their partner's church the couple is only allowed to commune in the Roman Church.

OTOH...

Quote
Pastoral Care of Catholic-Syrian Orthodox Interchurch Families

The Syrian Orthodox partner is to be reminded that he or she has to commit him/herself to imparting to their children proper Orthodox formation, to the extent possible and in agreement with his/her partner. Such formation should be fully in harmony with the Orthodox tradition to which he/she belongs.

The pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to the interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony.

Each partner is to be advised to attend the liturgical celebrations of his/her respective Church, but the couple may be allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint participation is socially required.

Any declaration of the nullity of such marriages is only to be considered with the consent of the bishops concerned from both Churches.

The funeral service should as far as possible be conducted according to the rite of the dead person's Church, even though he/she may be buried in either of the cemeteries, especially if the other partner is already buried there in a family tomb.
What sort of "special occasions" are these?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:49:20 PM by Severian »
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2015, 12:52:11 AM »
Also, forgive me. These past few days in particular have rather s**ked. Ironically enough, severe sleep deprivation caused by circumstances outside my realm of control was a major factor.

Last summer I had my first real experience with insomnia.  I've had a sleepless night here and there, but never before a sleepless fortnight.  You have my unworthy and ineffective prayers.

You are lucky to be alive; that kind of sleep deprivation can kill. If that happens again you should seek aid.

From another webpage: http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125SOCRCMarriagePastoralGuide.html

Quote
Celebration of Interchurch Marriages

The liturgical minister should be the parish priest of the church where the marriage is celebrated, or his delegate from the same ecclesial communion.

There is to be no joint celebration of marriage by the ministers of both Churches. The marriage is to be blessed either by the Catholic or by the Syrian Orthodox minister. However, there could be some kind of participation at the liturgical service by the other minister, who could read a Scriptural passage or give a sermon.

On the occasion of these celebrations, the couple and any members of their families who belong to these Churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the Church where the sacrament of matrimony is being celebrated.

Proper entries must be made in the Church registers, and marriage certificates should be issued for a record to be made in the register of the other Church.
So, this sounded all well and good. It seems that if a Syriac Orthodox faithful marries a Romanist in their partner's church the couple is only allowed to commune in the Roman Church.

OTOH...

Quote
Pastoral Care of Catholic-Syrian Orthodox Interchurch Families

The Syrian Orthodox partner is to be reminded that he or she has to commit him/herself to imparting to their children proper Orthodox formation, to the extent possible and in agreement with his/her partner. Such formation should be fully in harmony with the Orthodox tradition to which he/she belongs.

The pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to the interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony.

Each partner is to be advised to attend the liturgical celebrations of his/her respective Church, but the couple may be allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint participation is socially required.

Any declaration of the nullity of such marriages is only to be considered with the consent of the bishops concerned from both Churches.

The funeral service should as far as possible be conducted according to the rite of the dead person's Church, even though he/she may be buried in either of the cemeteries, especially if the other partner is already buried there in a family tomb.
What sort of "special occasions" are these?

Note what you are seeing there is the Patriarchate of Antioch, known as the "Jacobites" within India, whereas Mor is from what is sometimes called the Indian Orthodox Church, under the Catholicos of the Easr, and as you should know there is a bit of an irritating schism.  So whereas liturgically the two are basically the same, in terms of ecumenical relations they are independent of each other.
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2015, 05:49:05 AM »
I am aware yes. But, if you look at the webpage linked in reply #32, it says...
Quote
Agreement on Interchurch Marriages
between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church
January 25, 1994
...Which is what led to the initial confusion in reply #10. I based my previous assumption on said misunderstanding.

And yes, I am well aware of the tragic schism between these two Churches. I do hope it is resolved within the next few years.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 05:55:49 AM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2015, 09:02:27 AM »
Ok then.  By the way I rather dislike how the poll on this thread has no real dissenting option.
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2015, 09:08:04 AM »
No, the Roman church is not Apostolic.

I'm going to have to agree with the non-Chalcedonian hard-liner: The Roman Church has severed its ties with the Apostles through schism and heresy.
+8 billion

I wonder how prevalent this view is in OOy as a whole. Certainly, I know of many Copts, Eritreans and Ethiopians who would agree with me.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2015, 01:10:41 PM »
From another webpage: http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125SOCRCMarriagePastoralGuide.html

Quote
Celebration of Interchurch Marriages

The liturgical minister should be the parish priest of the church where the marriage is celebrated, or his delegate from the same ecclesial communion.

There is to be no joint celebration of marriage by the ministers of both Churches. The marriage is to be blessed either by the Catholic or by the Syrian Orthodox minister. However, there could be some kind of participation at the liturgical service by the other minister, who could read a Scriptural passage or give a sermon.

On the occasion of these celebrations, the couple and any members of their families who belong to these Churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the Church where the sacrament of matrimony is being celebrated.

Proper entries must be made in the Church registers, and marriage certificates should be issued for a record to be made in the register of the other Church.
So, this sounded all well and good. It seems that if a Syriac Orthodox faithful marries a Romanist in their partner's church the couple is only allowed to commune in the Roman Church.

One of us is misunderstanding this, and for now, I think I am not: the above basically says that if a Syrian Orthodox and a Roman Catholic marry in a Roman church, both the Orthodox and Catholic families are allowed to commune in the host church (in this case, the RC).  If they married in an Orthodox church, they would also be allowed to commune (even the Catholics), but it's a moot point because our marriage rite does not include Communion. 

It doesn't really say what is allowed beyond the wedding day, so there's no reason to think that "the couple is only allowed to commune in the Roman Church", not from this citation anyway.  More likely, they are allowed to commune in both, especially if they decide to go to one or the other church regularly, even if they are encouraged to go to their own churches.

Quote
OTOH...

Quote
Pastoral Care of Catholic-Syrian Orthodox Interchurch Families

The Syrian Orthodox partner is to be reminded that he or she has to commit him/herself to imparting to their children proper Orthodox formation, to the extent possible and in agreement with his/her partner. Such formation should be fully in harmony with the Orthodox tradition to which he/she belongs.

The pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to the interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony.

Each partner is to be advised to attend the liturgical celebrations of his/her respective Church, but the couple may be allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint participation is socially required.

Any declaration of the nullity of such marriages is only to be considered with the consent of the bishops concerned from both Churches.

The funeral service should as far as possible be conducted according to the rite of the dead person's Church, even though he/she may be buried in either of the cemeteries, especially if the other partner is already buried there in a family tomb.
What sort of "special occasions" are these?

By "special occasions", they probably have in mind "First Communions", weddings, baptisms occurring during a Mass, funeral Masses, etc. 

I think this is actually the more interesting part of the document.  At the top, it says it was developed and approved by both Churches, but it explicitly provides for the raising of the children as Orthodox.  Usually, the Catholics require that the children be raised Catholic, so I am surprised that they made an exception for an entire Church. 

Also, the part about "declarations of nullity" stuck out.  I wonder to what extent the Syrian Orthodox involved in this realised that the Roman theology of the sacrament of marriage is rather different from our own before coming up with all this other stuff. 
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2015, 02:45:58 PM »
If Syriac Orthodox who marry in Roman churches are still allowed to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist that is sad, very sad...

The MOSC in general seems a lot more traditional than the SOC, I wonder why that is?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 02:50:55 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2015, 03:14:46 PM »
 The Patriarch of Antioch and indeed the Catholicos of the East preside over seperate hierarchies and one cannot expect clear uniformity between them.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:15:02 PM by wgw »
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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2015, 03:16:47 PM »
If Syriac Orthodox who marry in Roman churches are still allowed to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist that is sad, very sad...

If the Orthodox bishop allows the Orthodox party to marry a RC in the Roman church without "converting to Catholicism" either explicitly (through a formal conversion) or implicitly (e.g., viewing such a marriage as a schismatic act), continuing to regard the Orthodox party as Orthodox, then this "intercommunion" is a form of economy based on particular conditions associated with that marriage and is being justified on the basis of the lack of distinction in our canonical tradition between RC's and EO's.   

Is it sad?  I'm not sure.  Certainly I think it is regrettable because it is an agreement made in spite of certain unresolved issues (e.g., status of RC's, differing theologies of marriage).  On the other hand, the more hardline position regards those who marry a non-Orthodox as having "married out", i.e., committed a form of schism.  That strictness hasn't made people in general more careful about and interested in marrying within the Orthodox community, but it has basically guaranteed that most of those who do "marry out" will never return to the Church.  From a dogmatic perspective, the hardline position is more sound, but what good is dogma in hell? 

Quote
The MOSC in general seems a lot more traditional than the SOC, I wonder why that is?

Eh.  Whether we are more traditional than they are depends on what you are talking about (e.g., on this issue, we are).  Our BS is different, but it's still BS. 
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The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

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Re: indian orthodox-roman catholic marriage
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2015, 05:04:21 PM »
^You do have a point. And you know what? I'm beginning to like you.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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