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Author Topic: Prophetic Words in the Church Tradition  (Read 1912 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shiloah
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« on: May 23, 2004, 04:40:00 PM »

Maybe this has been mentioned already somewhere on one of the forums. If so, please show me to it. Smiley If not, I would like to ask whether anybody knows anything about prophetic words from the venerable Saints and Elders of the Sacred Tradition of the Orthodox Church ? Or even of Orthodox Christians who are still on earth as part of the Church Militant?  :walksmil:

With 'prophetic words' I don't mean revelations 'of things to come' only, but also
warnings to the Church like , for instance, the prophet Jeremiah was given.

Is there any qualified orthodox literature about this subject? At the present I am reading a book called "Ultimate Things" - An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times, by Dennis E.Engleman. On page 118 there is a chapter called Revolutionary Workers and it contains quotes from Pope Saint Gregory the Great and from Mount Athos Monk St.Nilus, which describe our present day situation very graphically.

Thank you for sharing with me what you know.

Shiloah, wishing y'all a blessed week
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 04:49:52 PM by Shiloah » Logged

"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
Neander
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 01:09:17 PM »

Shiloah, there is a webpage with prophecies of the orthodox church fathers at
http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/Prophecies%20of%20Orthodox%20Church%20Fathers.htm

Also at http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/messiah/fulfillment.shtml .

and I found the following link, too http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread29439/pg1

I hope this will not disturb the peace on this forum.

I think this is a worth while topic and we should not look the other way when it is brought up. Here are some more finds;

http://prophecy.org/1311pro.htm

The following is the best yet of the modern ones:
http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/lavrenty.html

Neander
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Shiloah
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 01:16:56 PM »

Thank you kindly, Neander. I've been doing some research myself and can offer the following URLs:

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_cleopa_second_coming_of_Christ.htm

and http://www.rocor.org.au/stjohntheforerunnerchurch/articles/twoprophecies.html

http://www.roca.org/OA/96/96a.htm

I have yet to study all this but I certainly will ask the assistance of the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth.

Thanks again,
shiloah
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"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
Fr. David
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2004, 02:37:24 PM »

Gentlemen,

First: IIRC, you are both inquirers from protestantism, correct?

Secondly -- I would watch out for groups who have splintered off from the established Orthodox bishops (no names mentioned as that's a hairy subject in and of itself)...these groups try to use "fulfilled prophecies" to try and justify their position of having "taken a stand for the true faith in an age of heretical and demonic apostasy," or something like that.  Just a word of warning...Orthodoxy, from what I've seen, tends to view the end times through what has already been revealed through her creeds and councils; beyond that, we don't usually need to speculate.

"For you know not the day nor the hour...it has not been given to you to know the times..." etc....
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Shiloah
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2004, 03:43:08 PM »

Pedro, why don't you put away your gun before you shoot someone from the hip,  and simmer down?  :smiley5:
This Forum is not the Wild West. You certainly portrait the rash temper and attitude of St.Peter before the Lord's Crucifixion. Smiley  

OK, you're a young hot blood. So, let me tell you that

a) I am not a gentleman. If you had taken time to verify my ID you would have known.

b) I do not inquire from Protestantism, but you certainly are biased towards Protestants, probably because you've been one yourself and now you want to be the super-orthodox. I have been in the Orthodox Church when you were still in diapers.

I honor the Saints of the Church Triumphant and Elders of the Orthodox Church Militant enough to know that they are guided by the Holy Spirit and that I do well in taking their intentions and expressions seriously.

There is many a Staretz in this world who could tell you a whole lot about what the Lord is showing them, and they could care less and probably don't even know about all this political junk you bring in. I am not interested in that either. Don't even know what IIRC means, to begin with.

Where I come from, the elders speak and the young ones listen. I am an elder by age but I am on this forum mostly to listen, but also to respectfully submit my thoughts. And if someone prooves me wrong in something, I'll be glad to stand corrected. How about yourself? Huh

So, from what you say , do I understand correctly that you  think the Father is not speaking to his children anymore ?

Shiloah, looking towards the awesome patience of today's commemorated Saint Symeon, the "New Stylite,"  who is called "a pillar of patience" in the Apolytikion.



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"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
Fr. David
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2004, 04:31:23 PM »

Pedro, why don't you put away your gun before you shoot someone from the hip,  and simmer down?

Hmm...this is what annoys me about Internet forums: oftentimes we misinterpret somebody's tone.  Sorry, Shiloah, wasn't trying to go John Wayne or anything...guess I was just cleaning it and it went off  Wink...didn't mean to offend, but....

Quote
a) I am not a gentleman. If you had taken time to verify my ID you would have known.

...apparently, I did offend.  My apologies, ma'am.  Should've read up.

Quote
This Forum is not the Wild West. You certainly portrait the rash temper and attitude of St.Peter before the Lord's Crucifixion. Smiley  

Why do you think he's my patron?  :-  I've got a lot of work ahead of me, I admit.  The "attitude" wasn't conscious or intentional, I assure you.

Quote
b) I do not inquire from Protestantism, but you certainly are biased towards Protestants, probably because you've been one yourself and now you want to be the super-orthodox. I have been in the Orthodox Church when you were still in diapers.

Woah, now; don't go painting me as a "super-orthodox," as you say.  You may have been Orthodox for longer than I've been alive, but with all respect ma'am, you missed my motive for speaking up.  I mistakenly thought I remembered your having said you were inquiring from Protestantism, that's all...my mistake.  However, I'm actually pretty turned off by those who claim to be "more Orthodox than the Archbishop."  I would very much appreciate it if, in the future, you would please refrain from these kinds of labels.

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There is many a Staretz in this world who could tell you a whole lot about what the Lord is showing them...

Undoubtedly.  I'm merely cautioning against misuse by fringe groups.

Quote
...and they could care less and probably don't even know about all this political junk you bring in.

Hmm.  Not sure what "junk" you're talking about...

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Don't even know what IIRC means, to begin with.

"If I remember correctly."

Quote
Where I come from, the elders speak and the young ones listen. I am an elder by age but I am on this forum mostly to listen, but also to respectfully submit my thoughts. And if someone prooves me wrong in something, I'll be glad to stand corrected. How about yourself? Huh

I've been corrected by you, ma'am (and apologized for any unintentional offense) through this very thread, so yes, I do, as well.  My thoughts were submitted respectfully (or so I thought at the time) to the best of my ability.  My tone was misinterpreted, as has happened in these situations before.  No real harm done, hopefully.

Quote
So, from what you say , do I understand correctly that you think the Father is not speaking to his children anymore ?

No, ma'am; that's not what I'm trying to say.  Let me have another go at it: it has been my experience, both as a Protestant and now as an Orthodox Christian, that there are certain, oftentimes fringe, groups that try to justify their positions -- at times even their very existence! -- through use of a "prophetic voice."  Usually this involves datesetting, prediction of international turmoil between specific nations, natural disasters, etc.  An example of this came from one of the very websites posted above:

"A number of saints and righteous men--St. Niphon of Constantinople (+1508), Martyr Agathangelus (+1592), St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer of Mt. Athos (+1651), St. Cosmas Altolas (+1779), St. Callinicus of Romania (+1860)-point to the year 1992 as a year of reckoning."

My point is that we shouldn't be so eager to rush to those who offer warnings of "the end is near," even though the end may very well be nearer than we think!  

This was all I wanted to say; I meant no offence to either of you.
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Shiloah
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2004, 04:56:55 PM »


Sounds much better, Pedro, and I didn't take offense but thought I needed to set a few things straigth.

So, according to your words, the number of Saints in the quote below are part of what you call 'fringe groups'? What fringe groups exactly, if I may ask?

"A number of saints and righteous men--St. Niphon of Constantinople (+1508), Martyr Agathangelus (+1592), St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer of Mt. Athos (+1651), St. Cosmas Altolas (+1779), St. Callinicus of Romania (+1860)-point to the year 1992 as a year of reckoning."


And as for the rest of the URLs that I as well as Neander offered, are they all to be disregarded?

Shiloah
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"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
Neander
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2004, 05:18:37 PM »

Pedro, I just tried to help out Shiloah with some links I found on the web. What's wrong with that? So far nobody but you (and I) have offered a response.

You certainly have a case against Protestants, don't you? Just remember, Jesus died for them too. And it is only by His grace that you can stick up your nose in the air now and say"I'm better than this sinner there. I'm orthodox!"

Do you really think that kind of an attitude is attractive to non-orthodox?

Neander

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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2004, 11:33:35 PM »

Pedro, I just tried to help out Shiloah with some links I found on the web. What's wrong with that? ... You certainly have a case against Protestants, don't you? Just remember, Jesus died for them too. And it is only by His grace that you can stick up your nose in the air now and say"I'm better than this sinner there. I'm orthodox!"

Do you really think that kind of an attitude is attractive to non-orthodox?

<taking a deep breath>

Neander.

When someone offers an opinion that is not totally enthusiastic about a post, it doesn't mean the person thinks there's nothing good in the post.  The sites you referred us to contained much that was good; I'm not contesting that.

Further, my main caution was not even concerning Protestants; rather I was cautioning against ultra-conservative Orthodox sects, seeing as how we are trying to come at this from an Orthodox pov.  

I'm not terribly clear on where you came away with the idea that I was lambasting the Protestants -- I used to be one, I still have friends -- dear friends -- who are Protestant and towards whom I have no ill will. Allow me to reassure you that I look back fondly on my days as a "Bapticostal" with fondness and gratitude...and, as I said, my previous post wasn't even principally about the Protestants.  Please look over my previous post and tell me: exactly what was it about my post that made me seem as though I were looking down my nose at Protestants?

Shiloah,

I honestly have only heard of these monks' names; I haven't read in-depth regarding who they were, how their lives were, etc.  What I have heard about them has been very positive, however.  They seem to be very holy men; however, they are not the issue here.  There are groups who try to claim them exclusively as "one of our own," if you will, to prove their own agenda.  I would rather not go into who is a "fringe group" and who is not, as I'm almost certain that would violate the rules of the forum, which prohibit "jurisdiction bashing."

<Sigh>  I guess my point is this: Christ seems to speak more through the liturgical life of the Church in this day and age; excessive concern with ultimate things, while not unique to either Protestants or Orthodox, serves to distract from the eternal things God still tries to speak to us through the Church's prayers to prepare us for those ultimate things.

So go ahead and read the monks' writings -- we could all do a lot worse -- but take them with a grain of salt.  That's all I'm sayin'.
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Shiloah
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2004, 03:10:35 PM »

There is another prophetic word at http://www.stjohndc.org/homilies/homnilos.htm

by St.Nilos, Hermit of Mt.Athos

I also found the following which still has one part to be fulfilled:
http://www.russianorthodox-roac.com/5.html

There is also a very long but explicit article at http://www.incommunion.org/incommunion/walker.asp about
The Prophetic Role of Orthodoxy, by Dr. Andrew Walker ,Professor of Theology, Kings College, London. This webpage is of the Orthodox Peace Fellowship which is explained on the homepage as:
"The Orthodox Peace Fellowship of the Protection of the Mother of God is an association of Orthodox christians belonging to different nations and jurisdictions, trying to live the peace of Christ in day- t -day life, including situations of division and conflict."

Their advisory board consists of the following persons:
Advisory Board & Officers:
Archbishop Anastasios of Tirana and All Albania, Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia, Bishop Basil of Sergievo, Elisabeth Behr-Sigel, Fr. Anthony Coniaris, Fr. Stephen Headley, Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. Heikki Huttunen, Frederica Mathewes-Green, Fr. John Matusiak, Fr. Sergei Ovsiannikov, Fr. George Papademetriou, Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan, Dr. Albert Raboteau, Philip Tamoush, Fr. Steven Tsichlis, Fr. Theodoor van der Voort

Is this group an officially recognized Orthodox community or are they considered 'heretic' ? You can IM me if you don't want to post on the forum.

Thank you kindly, Shiloah
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"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2004, 02:15:28 AM »

Quote
Their advisory board consists of the following persons:
Advisory Board & Officers:

Archbishop Anastasios of Tirana and All Albania, Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia, Bishop Basil of Sergievo, Elisabeth Behr-Sigel, Fr. Anthony Coniaris, Fr. Stephen Headley, Fr. Thomas Hopko, Fr. Heikki Huttunen, Frederica Mathewes-Green, Fr. John Matusiak, Fr. Sergei Ovsiannikov, Fr. George Papademetriou, Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan, Dr. Albert Raboteau, Philip Tamoush, Fr. Steven Tsichlis, Fr. Theodoor van der Voort

Quote
Is this group an officially recognized Orthodox community or are they considered 'heretic'?

Shiloah,

I would assume they are officially recognized, because of the names that you mentioned which are listed above, namely Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia - aka - Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, who wrote "The Orthodox Church", Frederica Mathewes-Green - noted Orthodox author and Khouria as well, Fr. John Matusiak - the communications director of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), he is the priest who answers the Q & A on the OCA site as well as being the pastor of forum member Spartacus' parish and finally Archbishop Anastasios of Tirana and All Albania - of whom I have heard many good things.

I am not familiar with any of the others mentioned, but I hope to become more acquainted with who they are through the informative posts of our fellow forum members.  Cheesy

So, I would say that this group is far from being considered heretical, by any means.

In Christ,
Aaron

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Shiloah
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2004, 05:23:27 PM »

Thanks, Aaron, what a relief!  Roll Eyes
Reading their peaceful approach I wasn't quite sure anymore after having been exposed to this forum for a while and all the 'I-bash-you-bash-me" stuff going on. Embarrassed

And thanks for telling me who those board members are. I'm learning ...
Shiloah
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"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2004, 08:06:46 PM »

Quote
Thanks, Aaron, what a relief!  
Reading their peaceful approach I wasn't quite sure anymore after having been exposed to this forum for a while and all the 'I-bash-you-bash-me" stuff going on.

And thanks for telling me who those board members are. I'm learning ...

You are most welcome Shiloah.  :approve:

I am not Orthodox, so I am still learning myself.  :cwm40:

I was more than happy to share what little info I have with you.

In Christ,
Aaron
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