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Author Topic: can we (Orthodox) go to eucharistic adoration?  (Read 8582 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: April 08, 2011, 08:03:46 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2011, 08:06:10 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2011, 08:08:06 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

You'll get a multitude of opinions but the only one I would take seriously, no matter how well intentioned, is my priests.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2011, 08:09:29 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

From what I've read/heard/etc the Eucharistic is for one thing, eating. I would caution you but I'm of course no authority.

Re the bold: Is this the case? I was under the impression it is the exact opposite.
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2011, 08:10:26 PM »

Ignore all responses here, and just ask your priest. In fact, it would be awesome if this thread was locked before it became too ugly. Because I could see this getting VERY ugly pretty quickly.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2011, 08:34:42 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.
I would say Quinault has the right idea.

As to my worthless opinion, I'd just pray before my icon, and not go adore a Euchariest I could not commune.  This from someone who crosses himself when he passes one of the Vatican's Churches, and will prostrate when I go in and Adoration is going on (that is strictly my own theologoumen).

Btw, maybe you can work out contributing a prosphera.  Have you given his name to your priest?
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2011, 08:40:35 PM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2011, 08:51:04 PM »

Quote
can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?

I wouldn't. You can simply close your door and pray to God.

Eucharistic adoration is essentially a monophysite devotion: it focuses on the divinity of Christ at the expense of His full humanity.
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Dear Trevor,

You've gotten some good advice here, I think. 

At some point you are going to have to come face to face with the fact that you have left communion with the Church of your baptism and entered into Orthodoxy. 

You seem to be looking back a great deal.  It is time to truly cut that tie, for it no longer binds you.

Go and be who you are in Christ now.

Mary
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2011, 09:23:03 PM »

Quoting  Holy Scripture it say's ,Don't be Like a Dog Returning to it's own vomit....if you've shaken off former heresies why go back to them.. .You recieved the true light of Holy Orthodoxy there's nothing  that's left back there to go back too only darkness.. Keep moving forword in the Light and grow like a tree...... Huh Huh police
What's wrong with Praying for your friend in a Holy Orthodox Church ,Plus Light a Candle and incense when your at home praying..... police

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments. 

I wouldn't agree with that statement.
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 09:57:55 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

You'll get a multitude of opinions but the only one I would take seriously, no matter how well intentioned, is my priests.  Smiley

What if your priest's opinion is at odds with Tikhon's priest's?
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 09:58:23 PM »

When stashko and elijahmaria say essentially the same thing (just in completely different ways), you know they're on to something.  When I agree with both of them, you know the sentiment must be correct.

Leave it behind, Trevor.
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 09:59:19 PM »

Essentially, after you have yourself received Holy Communion, you can then "adore the Eucharist" when the priest puts the chalice back on the altar and censes it saying, "Be exalted above the Heavens, O God...."
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 10:05:11 PM »

When stashko and elijahmaria say essentially the same thing (just in completely different ways), you know they're on to something.  When I agree with both of them, you know the sentiment must be correct.

Leave it behind, Trevor.

This is true Trevor.  You will find some who will tell you to go ahead and some will tell you no because there is no Eucharist there, and they will all be Orthodox. 

You are young.  You've made a man's choice with a boy's heart.  So what you must do is dig down and find a steadfast heart, and do not waiver, do not look back until you have spent some years in Orthodoxy.  Only then will you be mature enough not to be swept up in doubts of all kinds.

Just trust that God has moved your heart in this way and don't look back.  You have all that you need where you are.

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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 10:05:20 PM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 10:58:46 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Go to Presanctified Liturgy.  There is Eucharistic adoration there.   Of course, in the strict Russian practice with closed doors during the exposition, you will (unless the holy doors are the "low style") not know "from sight" that the exposition, its censing, its being moved to the prothesis etc. (which is the purpose of the psalms being read) is happening. 
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 11:03:11 PM »

Quote
can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?

Eucharistic adoration is essentially a monophysite devotion: it focuses on the divinity of Christ at the expense of His full humanity.

We do it at every presanctified, and indeed, at every Liturgy, as Fr.A has pointed out.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 11:04:52 PM by FatherHLL » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 11:09:40 PM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 12:09:44 AM »

Trevor, when I first came to the Orthodox Church, I asked my priest where the tabernacle was so that I could come into the church and pray when I felt the need.  I was used to praying before the Eucharist - it was one of the few times in certain situations where I felt comfort. 

He explained to me that the true tabernacle is now the Body of Christ.  He pointed to my heart and said, "This is where you need to sit before Him, as your heart is the true tabernacle." 

Since then, I've been slowly learning how to enter my heart to be with Him. .  . and only Him. . . and in that place, I am bare before Him and can pour out my heart. 

I don't think I could have accepted any other answer or explanation so soon, but I literally started to cry when he told me this. . .because it was the perfect most beautiful answer. 

I hope this helps.  Prayers to you, for you and for your dear friend.  Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2011, 12:27:41 AM »

Trevor, I don't know your situation, but if you're feeling the need to pray in church, alone, what about contacting YOUR priest about getting access to YOUR Orthodox parish at a time when no service is going on - to pray quietly.

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2011, 12:45:14 AM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Eucharistic adoration in the East is found in the Liturgy of Pre-Sanctified Gifts.  If you have a prayer corner in your house, you can pray there with God's divine presence in the icons.  

I would not recommend going to the Catholic Church for Eucharistic adoration.
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2011, 12:55:05 AM »

Quote
can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?

I wouldn't. You can simply close your door and pray to God.

Eucharistic adoration is essentially a monophysite devotion: it focuses on the divinity of Christ at the expense of His full humanity.

Having gone to Eucharistic adoration with some frequency during my Catholic years, I have to politely disagree with this.  Most Catholic churches/chapels where the Eucharistic host is shown have visible reminders of Christ's crucifixion (e.g. crucifix behind the altar or on the wall, above the monstrance, stations of the cross around the church, etc.).  The Eucharistic miracles that occur often involve the appearance of blood on the host, thereby showing His humanity.  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 12:57:27 AM by StGeorge » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2011, 01:35:59 AM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
I am quite sure that he was. The canon does not prohibit entering heretical churches, rather praying within them. St. Tikhon attended not for prayer, but to examine Anglican liturgy for its usage within Orthodoxy (btw St. Mark's is now Orthodox).
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2011, 05:52:55 AM »

When stashko and elijahmaria say essentially the same thing (just in completely different ways), you know they're on to something.  When I agree with both of them, you know the sentiment must be correct.

Leave it behind, Trevor.

 Cheesy
Good point. I agree, and I imagine I will experience similar struggles in the years ahead of me. Whenever I feel pulled to my past, whether it's my religious past, or even  darker, secular parts of my past, I try to say a prayer, in front of an icon if possible, and remember where God has brought me!

As a Catholic, Eucharistic Adoration, at least when I was doing well, was a major part of my faith. When I first inquired in Catholicism, 10 years or so ago, the man who eventually became my Godfather directed me to adoration. He was a devotee, and still goes 2-3 times a week for an hour, as a "shift leader" for a perpetual parish. I gained an awful lot from this, and it is and will be a difficult thing to give up, but I realize that the blessings I received at adoration came mostly from letting Christ into my heart, in a quiet and solitary way, and really using the various images that would be in the chapel, i.e., the crucifix, the statues of the Theotokos, quite intuitively, in the way that I have now been taught to pray with icons. I actually had trouble often when I really focused too hard on the implications behind actual Eucharistic Adoration, it seemed a little odd outside of the context of actual Communion....
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2011, 06:26:28 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

That is right. There was no need to dogmatise this issue.
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2011, 06:39:02 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

Well, there is this: 

Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk: "It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics."

"The point here is not a diplomatic manifestation of politeness but attempts to impose on the Orthodox
the recognition of a real presence of saving grace outside the Church. For the Church, the authenticity
of Sacraments is a matter of salvation. It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’
administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.


http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

But then there is also this!

Metropolitan Hilarion: Interview with Der Spiegel and his remarks on Catholic sacraments.

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2009/12/abp-hilarion-sits-down-with-der-spiegel.html





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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2011, 06:53:52 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

That is right. There was no need to dogmatise this issue.

There's no need to dogmatise an issue that causes confusion and division among the faithful?
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2011, 07:05:48 AM »

There's no need to dogmatise an issue that causes confusion and division among the faithful?

I guess that in the pre-Internet times there simply wasn't that much "confusion and division among the faithful" over this particular issue. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2011, 08:38:09 AM »

There's no need to dogmatise an issue that causes confusion and division among the faithful?

I guess that in the pre-Internet times there simply wasn't that much "confusion and division among the faithful" over this particular issue. Wink

It would have been quite an issue if, say, Russian faithful had known that Greek bishops are teaching just the opposite than their own bishops. I'm not saying that we should dogmatise everything or that every local church should have similar practice. But the theological idea behind different practices is certainly an issue due to Old Calendarist schism. Maybe it wasn't an issue in the past but it is certainly an issue nowadays.
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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2011, 09:48:57 AM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
I am quite sure that he was. The canon does not prohibit entering heretical churches, rather praying within them. St. Tikhon attended not for prayer, but to examine Anglican liturgy for its usage within Orthodoxy (btw St. Mark's is now Orthodox).

Well, the actual website of the parish puts it this way:

Many interesting characters passed through the doors of St. Mark’s in these 124 years. Most interesting was the visit of Archbishop Tikhon (Belavin), who joined in Vespers, preached, and blessed the congregation on the Patronal Feast Day of St. Mark the Evangelist, April 25, 1904. Newspaper accounts of the day record the event in detail, including the fact that Archbishop Tikhon preached in Greek and that he was interpreted by the Russian priest of the Greek Russian Catholic Parish of Holy Transfiguration—which had just been reclaimed for Orthodoxy two days before from the Uniates! This was one of many instances in which Archbishop Tikhon (later elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, and since canonized as St. Tikhon) obtained experience with worship in English and in the Western Rite. At this same time he employed Isabel Florence Hapgood, an Episcopalian lay woman, to translate the service books from Slavonic to English.

Link provided by poster: http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/about  -PtA
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« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2011, 11:35:45 AM »

Trevor, I don't know your situation, but if you're feeling the need to pray in church, alone, what about contacting YOUR priest about getting access to YOUR Orthodox parish at a time when no service is going on - to pray quietly.



That is an excellent idea.  In my parish, everyone has a key to the building.  I have gone in when I've felt really depressed or stressed.  It always calms me down to be in there to pray and being surrounded by all the icons of the saints.
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« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2011, 12:25:02 PM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
I am quite sure that he was. The canon does not prohibit entering heretical churches, rather praying within them. St. Tikhon attended not for prayer, but to examine Anglican liturgy for its usage within Orthodoxy (btw St. Mark's is now Orthodox).

Well, the actual website of the parish puts it this way:

Many interesting characters passed through the doors of St. Mark’s in these 124 years. Most interesting was the visit of Archbishop Tikhon (Belavin), who joined in Vespers, preached, and blessed the congregation on the Patronal Feast Day of St. Mark the Evangelist, April 25, 1904. Newspaper accounts of the day record the event in detail, including the fact that Archbishop Tikhon preached in Greek and that he was interpreted by the Russian priest of the Greek Russian Catholic Parish of Holy Transfiguration—which had just been reclaimed for Orthodoxy two days before from the Uniates! This was one of many instances in which Archbishop Tikhon (later elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, and since canonized as St. Tikhon) obtained experience with worship in English and in the Western Rite. At this same time he employed Isabel Florence Hapgood, an Episcopalian lay woman, to translate the service books from Slavonic to English.
Interesting, I will have to read more on this. Regardless, I do not find the situation of St. Tikhon and the OP to be comparable (I am not implying that you did either). St. Tikhon possessed the episcopal power to "bind and loose", thus did what he felt was necessary for leading the heterodox to salvation (notice that his actions are rooted in bringing people to Orthodoxy, not ecumenism that validates heretical beliefs). The OP, however, is not a bishop, nor does he seek to convert the RC's. Unless a bishop has granted one an economic adherence to a canon, he must hold fast to these teachings. While the canons exist to guide us (and not to legalistically rule over us) we should not be quick to disregard them. The holy fathers entrusted them to us for our own good and for our own salvation.
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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2011, 02:52:51 PM »

Excellent points, Ioannis! And you're correct, I wasn't trying to imply the situations were comparable, just thought it was interesting in light of that canon.
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« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2011, 05:36:12 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments. 


Regarding the Reception of Converts and "Re-Baptism"

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/reception_of_converts.htm

"...the Eparchial Synod of Bishops of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, with the concurrence of the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, has determined to recognize by extreme Oikonomia the heterodox Baptisms normatively performed according to the prescribed form in the following denominations and churches:.... (l.) Roman Catholic...."

People often look at me sideways as if I have lapsed into madness and fundamentalism when I say the Orthodox do not recognise non-Orthodox Baptisms per se, not even those of the Roman Catholic Church, but there it is in black and white from the Greeks in the US.
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2011, 05:46:58 PM »

When things as important as grace in sacraments are at stake in a conversion, how does a teen-aged boy wind up converted to Orthodoxy not knowing that the universal Church that he has entered does not recognize grace in the Church that he just left behind? 

This question will conclude my participation in this thread.

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments. 


Regarding the Reception of Converts and "Re-Baptism"

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/reception_of_converts.htm

"...the Eparchial Synod of Bishops of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, with the concurrence of the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, has determined to recognize by extreme Oikonomia the heterodox Baptisms normatively performed according to the prescribed form in the following denominations and churches:.... (l.) Roman Catholic...."

People often look at me sideways as if I have lapsed into madness and fundamentalism when I say the Orthodox do not recognise non-Orthodox Baptisms per se, not even those of the Roman Catholic Church, but there it is in black and white from the Greeks in the US.
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2011, 05:55:30 PM »

When things as important as grace in sacraments are at stake in a conversion, how does a teen-aged boy wind up converted to Orthodoxy not knowing that the universal Church that he has entered does not recognize grace in the Church that he just left behind? 

This question will conclude my participation in this thread.

There are a few things on which the Orthodox disagree at this present time.

1.  The issue of the Calendar

2.  Our relationship to other Christian Churches, and the nature of their Sacraments (if they claim to possess them.)

In the case of the Protestant Churches which do not even wish to have a sacramental understanding of Baptism but see it as a public affirmation of a prior commitment to Christ, etc., there is obviously no problem at all about rejecting their Baptisms.

In the case of the Roman Catholics the Orthodox Churches have varying opinions, and it has been this way since the Great Schism.  Perhaps the upcoming Great Council will discuss this and formulate a policy agreed on by all the Orthodox Churches.  If not, then we are stuck with our diversity.
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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2011, 06:04:44 PM »

There's no need to dogmatise an issue that causes confusion and division among the faithful?

I guess that in the pre-Internet times there simply wasn't that much "confusion and division among the faithful" over this particular issue. Wink

It would have been quite an issue if, say, Russian faithful had known that Greek bishops are teaching just the opposite than their own bishops. I'm not saying that we should dogmatise everything or that every local church should have similar practice. But the theological idea behind different practices is certainly an issue due to Old Calendarist schism. Maybe it wasn't an issue in the past but it is certainly an issue nowadays.

I wouldn't say that the issue has much to do with the so-called "Old Calendarist schism." But I am interested to hear your argument.
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2011, 06:08:52 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

You'll get a multitude of opinions but the only one I would take seriously, no matter how well intentioned, is my priests.  Smiley

What if your priest's opinion is at odds with Tikhon's priest's?

I want to clarify that when I made this post last night, I was not trying to be snarky, but was hoping this would spin a side discussion. I agree that we should ask our priest these types of questions first, before coming on the internet. And we know Tikhon (Trevor) from his kind posting history, where he is especially open with us all (sometimes I think a bit too much, but I still feel honored that he trusts the site to give him advice).

What I was hoping to get at was that sometimes priests give bad or even wrong advice (I happen to know Tikhon's priest, and I am not referring to him at all!), and sometimes priests are just impossible to get a hold of.  And sometimes we realize our priest has an opinion that is not shared by other priests. It can be very confusing, and that is what I wanted to elaborate on, and hear others' perspectives, not just my own.

But I can see that this might not be the best place to do it, so I will ask the moderators to split the topic if anyone takes up the discussion, but if no one replies to this point, we can safely just let this one die.

Tikhon, you are in my prayers and please do talk to your priest about your confusion when you have a chance.
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2011, 10:47:20 PM »

I wouldn't say that the issue has much to do with the so-called "Old Calendarist schism." But I am interested to hear your argument.

Well you probably know more about this than I, Father. Smiley It is just my simple understanding that one of the things that Old Calendarists complain about mainstream EOs is that some of us seem to accept, say, RC sacraments as valid and efficacious. But of course that wasn't the original reason for the schism.

Anyway, this is not just about Old Calendarists vs. mainstream EOs. I recall reading that metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was mocked as heretic by his own Russian faithful due to his irenic stand to heterodox. I believe that dogmatising our stance on heterodox sacraments can help to diminish these kind of disputes. That's why I'm all for it.
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2011, 05:25:42 PM »

I wouldn't say that the issue has much to do with the so-called "Old Calendarist schism." But I am interested to hear your argument.
Well you probably know more about this than I, Father. Smiley It is just my simple understanding that one of the things that Old Calendarists complain about mainstream EOs is that some of us seem to accept, say, RC sacraments as valid and efficacious. But of course that wasn't the original reason for the schism. Anyway, this is not just about Old Calendarists vs. mainstream EOs. I recall reading that metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was mocked as heretic by his own Russian faithful due to his irenic stand to heterodox. I believe that dogmatising our stance on heterodox sacraments can help to diminish these kind of disputes. That's why I'm all for it.

It cannot be dogmatized because every heretical, schismatic or even paracongregationalist group is different, and even change their own positions over time.   It is pastoral.  Our position on doctrine alone can be dogmatic.   That is why, from the beginning, going back to Sts. Stephen and Cyprian.   Since they we have argued and fluxuated back and forth in different time periods in different regions on the subject.  Again, this is because, until it comes to receiving a whole group back into Orthodoxy (such as the Donatists), then, in that particular circumstance and time dogmas are defined and mutually adhered to.  But as time goes on, a different approach with a different group in different times.  You can't change something that is not dogmatic into a dogmatic issue.   
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2011, 07:00:39 PM »

I wouldn't say that the issue has much to do with the so-called "Old Calendarist schism." But I am interested to hear your argument.
Well you probably know more about this than I, Father. Smiley It is just my simple understanding that one of the things that Old Calendarists complain about mainstream EOs is that some of us seem to accept, say, RC sacraments as valid and efficacious. But of course that wasn't the original reason for the schism. Anyway, this is not just about Old Calendarists vs. mainstream EOs. I recall reading that metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was mocked as heretic by his own Russian faithful due to his irenic stand to heterodox. I believe that dogmatising our stance on heterodox sacraments can help to diminish these kind of disputes. That's why I'm all for it.

It cannot be dogmatized because every heretical, schismatic or even paracongregationalist group is different, and even change their own positions over time.   It is pastoral.  Our position on doctrine alone can be dogmatic.   That is why, from the beginning, going back to Sts. Stephen and Cyprian.   Since they we have argued and fluxuated back and forth in different time periods in different regions on the subject.  Again, this is because, until it comes to receiving a whole group back into Orthodoxy (such as the Donatists), then, in that particular circumstance and time dogmas are defined and mutually adhered to.  But as time goes on, a different approach with a different group in different times.  You can't change something that is not dogmatic into a dogmatic issue.  

Interesting point about each heretical, schismatic, and paracongregationalist group being different.  I am reminded of St. Basil's canonical letter that concerns the baptism of heretics, in which St. Basil makes distinctions between different groups and how these distinctions help determine how the person is to be received into the Church. 
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2011, 08:07:44 PM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
I am quite sure that he was. The canon does not prohibit entering heretical churches, rather praying within them. St. Tikhon attended not for prayer, but to examine Anglican liturgy for its usage within Orthodoxy (btw St. Mark's is now Orthodox).

Well, the actual website of the parish puts it this way:

Many interesting characters passed through the doors of St. Mark’s in these 124 years. Most interesting was the visit of Archbishop Tikhon (Belavin), who joined in Vespers, preached, and blessed the congregation on the Patronal Feast Day of St. Mark the Evangelist, April 25, 1904. Newspaper accounts of the day record the event in detail, including the fact that Archbishop Tikhon preached in Greek and that he was interpreted by the Russian priest of the Greek Russian Catholic Parish of Holy Transfiguration—which had just been reclaimed for Orthodoxy two days before from the Uniates! This was one of many instances in which Archbishop Tikhon (later elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, and since canonized as St. Tikhon) obtained experience with worship in English and in the Western Rite. At this same time he employed Isabel Florence Hapgood, an Episcopalian lay woman, to translate the service books from Slavonic to English.
If you got this from a Web site, as you so admit, could you please give us a link to the Web site from which you copied this, and within the next 72 hours?  Just send the link via private message to either Michal Kalina, LizaSymonenko, or myself, and we'll make sure to append it to your post. Thank you.
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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2011, 10:03:11 PM »

When in doubt, consult the Holy Canons as well as the Church Fathers. In this case :

65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.

Your icon corner is quite apposite for prayer - pray for your friend at home.

I wonder if St. Tikhon was aware of this, when he attended Evensong at St. Mark's Episcopal Church.
I am quite sure that he was. The canon does not prohibit entering heretical churches, rather praying within them. St. Tikhon attended not for prayer, but to examine Anglican liturgy for its usage within Orthodoxy (btw St. Mark's is now Orthodox).

Well, the actual website of the parish puts it this way:

Many interesting characters passed through the doors of St. Mark’s in these 124 years. Most interesting was the visit of Archbishop Tikhon (Belavin), who joined in Vespers, preached, and blessed the congregation on the Patronal Feast Day of St. Mark the Evangelist, April 25, 1904. Newspaper accounts of the day record the event in detail, including the fact that Archbishop Tikhon preached in Greek and that he was interpreted by the Russian priest of the Greek Russian Catholic Parish of Holy Transfiguration—which had just been reclaimed for Orthodoxy two days before from the Uniates! This was one of many instances in which Archbishop Tikhon (later elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, and since canonized as St. Tikhon) obtained experience with worship in English and in the Western Rite. At this same time he employed Isabel Florence Hapgood, an Episcopalian lay woman, to translate the service books from Slavonic to English.
If you got this from a Web site, as you so admit, could you please give us a link to the Web site from which you copied this, and within the next 72 hours?  Just send the link via private message to either Michal Kalina, LizaSymonenko, or myself, and we'll make sure to append it to your post. Thank you.

Link sent and my apologies!
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« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2011, 05:05:03 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Well, the can 'o worms picture speaks volumes, as witnessed by the discussion here.  There isn't much that I have to add, other than A) God knows your heart; B) Icon corners are GREAT; C) the space and atmosphere of a chapel of eucharistic adoration lend themselves to quiet, peaceful, uninterrupted prayer, meditation, (and the occasional quiet nap  Wink); D) I once had a priest (Orthodox) who advised that it presented no problem whatsoever to pray in a chapel of eucharistic adoration (but then, he's not a priest anymore, either  Cool); E) I certainly wouldn't have a problem doing so--God knows my heart, too!; F) Good advice to check with your priest; G) God will hear your prayer *wherever* you are when you pray--in fact, He probably knows your prayer before you even consciously formulate it--remember, God doesn't need our prayers, prayer is for *us* and those for whom we pray.

As for the whole issue of who recognizes who's sacraments as "valid", I would only say that Orthodox Christians are welcome to pray, worship, AND commune with Catholics.  Just ask any Catholic priest.  The "courtesy", if you want to call it that, is not reciprocated by the Orthodox.  (I'll probably get into hot water here for saying that  Roll Eyes).
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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2011, 05:30:52 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2011, 05:35:20 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Probably because it does...?  Grin
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2011, 05:49:03 PM »

Eucharistic adoration is essentially a monophysite devotion: it focuses on the divinity of Christ at the expense of His full humanity.

LOL
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2011, 05:49:23 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Probably because it does...?  Grin

Most Orthodox appear to teach otherwise.
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2011, 05:50:16 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Probably because it does...?  Grin

Most Orthodox appear to teach otherwise.

Do you mean most Orthodox on the internet...? I don't think most people attending your local parish care either way, though I could be wrong.
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2011, 05:51:52 PM »

Essentially, after you have yourself received Holy Communion, you can then "adore the Eucharist" when the priest puts the chalice back on the altar and censes it saying, "Be exalted above the Heavens, O God...."

Can't the Eucharist be adored at any point after the epiclesis?
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2011, 05:53:18 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Probably because it does...?  Grin

Most Orthodox appear to teach otherwise.

Do you mean most Orthodox on the internet...? I don't think most people attending your local parish care either way, though I could be wrong.

No, not just on the internet. I have had conversations with parishioners in local Orthodox churches (the local Coptic church comes to mind the most in this case) where the people I converse with have indicated agreement in not recognizing Romanist ordinances as legitimate.
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

That really has more to do with the Orthodox Church not having as centralized a teaching authority as most Western Christian bodies.
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« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2011, 06:08:56 PM »

I wouldn't say that the issue has much to do with the so-called "Old Calendarist schism." But I am interested to hear your argument.
Well you probably know more about this than I, Father. Smiley It is just my simple understanding that one of the things that Old Calendarists complain about mainstream EOs is that some of us seem to accept, say, RC sacraments as valid and efficacious. But of course that wasn't the original reason for the schism. Anyway, this is not just about Old Calendarists vs. mainstream EOs. I recall reading that metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was mocked as heretic by his own Russian faithful due to his irenic stand to heterodox. I believe that dogmatising our stance on heterodox sacraments can help to diminish these kind of disputes. That's why I'm all for it.

It cannot be dogmatized because every heretical, schismatic or even paracongregationalist group is different, and even change their own positions over time.   It is pastoral.  Our position on doctrine alone can be dogmatic.   That is why, from the beginning, going back to Sts. Stephen and Cyprian.   Since they we have argued and fluxuated back and forth in different time periods in different regions on the subject.  Again, this is because, until it comes to receiving a whole group back into Orthodoxy (such as the Donatists), then, in that particular circumstance and time dogmas are defined and mutually adhered to.  But as time goes on, a different approach with a different group in different times.  You can't change something that is not dogmatic into a dogmatic issue.  

Interesting point about each heretical, schismatic, and paracongregationalist group being different.  I am reminded of St. Basil's canonical letter that concerns the baptism of heretics, in which St. Basil makes distinctions between different groups and how these distinctions help determine how the person is to be received into the Church. 

Saint Basil was talking about economy, though. What he wrote was not an indication of differences in the level of recognition of the efficacy of those ordinances, only differences in the level of recognition of their form.
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« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2011, 06:21:25 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Probably because it does...?  Grin

Most Orthodox appear to teach otherwise.

Do you mean most Orthodox on the internet...? I don't think most people attending your local parish care either way, though I could be wrong.

No, not just on the internet. I have had conversations with parishioners in local Orthodox churches (the local Coptic church comes to mind the most in this case) where the people I converse with have indicated agreement in not recognizing Romanist ordinances as legitimate.

Most Orthodox you have encountered does not equal "most Orthodox" in general. Conciliar/synodal/episcopal statements are what really matters, not opinions of parishioners. You, for that matter, have, IIRC, some interesting opinions on premarital sex and homosexual acts. So let's image you converted to OOxy. And let's imagine that I, by chance, talked with you and some other OOs who happened to have that kind of opinions. Am I entitled to say that most OOs appear to teach that premarital sex and homosexual acts are OK?
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2011, 06:56:53 PM »

Most Orthodox you have encountered does not equal "most Orthodox" in general.

With a combination of sentiments that I have seen on the internet with quite an international selection, sentiments expressed in international Orthodox news stories, and sentiments I have experienced in local churches of various traditions, I think it is quite safe to say that overall it is the majority opinion of Orthodox that Rome does not have efficacious Sacraments.

Conciliar/synodal/episcopal statements are what really matters, not opinions of parishioners.

The laity have a role in preserving the authentic orthodox faith sometimes even in contrast to episcopal and synodical statements which are seeking to pervert that faith (Florence being one of the most famous examples). In light of that, your statement sounds quite clericalist.

You, for that matter, have, IIRC, some interesting opinions on premarital sex and homosexual acts. So let's image you converted to OOxy. And let's imagine that I, by chance, talked with you and some other OOs who happened to have that kind of opinions. Am I entitled to say that most OOs appear to teach that premarital sex and homosexual acts are OK?

It's not a decent comparison because it's simply not true that most OO teach that homosexual acts are sometimes acceptable.
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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2011, 07:09:12 PM »

The laity have a role in preserving the authentic orthodox faith sometimes even in contrast to episcopal and synodical statements which are seeking to pervert that faith (Florence being one of the most famous examples).

In theory - yes, but in this day and age...

EOT.
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2011, 07:39:05 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:35:25 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2011, 09:10:18 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

Would you mind sending them to me, too, please.

M.



Contents of quote box updated to match current text  -PtA
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:37:23 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2011, 09:30:28 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

I find this very confusing. The Russian Church can't have it both ways. If RCC have grace filled sacraments then so does the UOC-KP. They are only schismatics while the RCC is schismatic and holds heretical beliefs. Metropolitan Hilarion just came out a little while ago and said “It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”.  Also I don't see how a Russian council or one in Constantinople can go against the teachings of Fathers like St Cyprian 1200 years after he taught.

http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

Unfortunately I could not get your links to work so if you could send me the info that would be much appreciated.



Contents of quote box updated to match current text  -PtA
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« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2011, 10:17:42 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

I find this very confusing. The Russian Church can't have it both ways. If RCC have grace filled sacraments then so does the UOC-KP. They are only schismatics while the RCC is schismatic and holds heretical beliefs. Metropolitan Hilarion just came out a little while ago and said “It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”.  Also I don't see how a Russian council or one in Constantinople can go against the teachings of Fathers like St Cyprian 1200 years after he taught.

http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

Unfortunately I could not get your links to work so if you could send me the info that would be much appreciated.

And then we need to square his older position with the new one:

http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/archbishop-hilarion-alfeev-on-catholic-sacraments/



Contents of quote box updated to match current text  -PtA
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« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2011, 02:53:56 AM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

You'll get a multitude of opinions but the only one I would take seriously, no matter how well intentioned, is my priests.  Smiley

please listen to this advice, and don't take ours.
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« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2011, 02:57:59 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

This is the best approach, imho. We just don't know, so we don't concern ourselves with it. We do know where it is valid though.
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« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2011, 08:50:11 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
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« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2011, 09:02:34 AM »


For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

Would you mind sending them to me, too, please.

M.

And to me too, please, Fr Ambrose.  Thank you.
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« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2011, 09:13:56 AM »


For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

Would you mind sending them to me, too, please.

M.

And to me too, please, Fr Ambrose.  Thank you.

I would also be grateful for these.
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« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2011, 10:10:39 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.

To put this in a little bit of perspective, Catholics entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or a Monstrance in Exposition, ought to make the same discernment. 

It is no small or easy thing to stand in the presence of the Living God.  So for those outside trying to discern, you are not alone.

Thank you for the work you are doing in this thread, Father Ambrose.
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« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2011, 10:35:21 AM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 

Thank you for that, Fr. Ambrose!
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« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2011, 11:16:02 AM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 

Thank you for that, Fr. Ambrose!

This is as how I was taught and it makes sense in terms of the manner in which former American Greek Catholics were received into Orthodoxy first as the followers of St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre by St. Tikhon and later, the followers of +Bishop Orestes, by Archbishop, later Patriarch Athenagoras on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2011, 11:25:43 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?
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« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2011, 11:41:30 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?

I would honor the Real Presence. However...if I stumbled into the like of one of the 'clown masses' with puppets, I honestly don't know, that would present a problem. But, perhaps that would likewise present some of you Catholics with the same problem, would it not?
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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2011, 11:45:47 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?

I would honor the Real Presence. However...if I stumbled into the like of one of the 'clown masses' with puppets, I honestly don't know, that would present a problem. But, perhaps that would likewise present some of you Catholics with the same problem, would it not?
A. Abuses such as clown masses are so extremely rare, that the vast majority of Catholics in the world will never experience such.
B. I would walk out and report it to the Bishop immediately. If this didn't resolve the matter I would report it to the Vatican, over and over and over again, until it was resolved.
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2011, 01:06:03 PM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?

I would honor the Real Presence. However...if I stumbled into the like of one of the 'clown masses' with puppets, I honestly don't know, that would present a problem. But, perhaps that would likewise present some of you Catholics with the same problem, would it not?

I was in a liturgy in upstate NY in Bishop Hubbard's diocese where the celebrant took a pitcher of water, slopped a bit of wine into it and recited some sort of consecratory text. 

I was there with a Catholic priest.  We looked at one another and through communion remained in our pew, allowing that given the violence of our thoughts at the moment, we were not worthy to receive in any event.  Smiley

That is once in my lifetime that I've been in a liturgy were I would emphatically and certainly refuse communion, so I can say nothing about any other invalidating liturgical abuse from experience.

Not all "abuses" invalidate the sacrament of eucharist...thankfully.

And I am in much greater danger every day of being quite certainly unworthy.
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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2011, 05:17:38 PM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.

To put this in a little bit of perspective, Catholics entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or a Monstrance in Exposition, ought to make the same discernment. 

It is no small or easy thing to stand in the presence of the Living God.  So for those outside trying to discern, you are not alone.

Thank you for the work you are doing in this thread, Father Ambrose.

As a footnote please let me add my own belief, the teaching which I received
from my spiritual father in Serbia, may his memory be eternal.   It differs
entirely from the Russian.

Because of my Serbian background I in fact do not agree with the Russian position,
but it would be dishonest of us not to admit that it is the historical
attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox assessment of Catholic and Pre-Chalcedonian sacraments is not
uniform.


Once when the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Zagreb was visiting the holy
monastery of Zica, Serbia, together with a small party of bishops and
priests he shared lunch with us in the monastery's guest refectory.
---
I suppose it would help to put you in the picture if I relate something of
Fr Dositej's place in the Serbian Church.

My spiritual father (and the person who tonsured me) was Fr Archimandrite
Dositej of the holy monastery of Zica. He was tonsured and ordained by Saint
Nikolai Velimirovic of Zica
and was his disciple. He was a spiritual friend of Saint Justin Popovic and
in the esteem of the Serbian faithful second only to him as one of Serbia's
spiritual fathers. In a country which has dozens of excellent monasteries
and many many excellent spiritual fathers, this means quite a lot. He was
the spiritual father of Zica monastery with 27 monastics and he was the
confessor of many other monks and nuns from other monasteries and he had
numerous spiritual children throughout Serbia. This helps to make it clear
why I trust and hold
to the tradition which I received from him.
---


Back to the anecdote....... At the meal Archbishop Kuharic asked Fr Dositej
what he saw as the difference between Catholic and Orthodox sacraments.

Fr Dositej took two identical glasses and he filled one with water. He
pointed to that one and said: "This glass is the sacraments (tainstva) of
the Orthodox."

Hierom. Ambrose

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« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2011, 05:21:41 PM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?

Chesterton and Belloc were once visiting an Anglican church and one them genuflected to the tabernacle.

The other remonstrated:  You shouldn't do that.  There's nothing there.

The one who had genuflected replied:  Well, if He is there, He's there as a prisoner!"

Hey, don't shoot me.  I am just repeating a Chesterton-Belloc conversation.  Wink
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« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2011, 05:00:30 PM »

The Lord is everywhere present and filling all things.  The question is if He is there in the higher Mysteries, that is, sacramentally.  If He is not, then we can still bow to the Lord who is everywhere present and filling all things.  We should not be heretics and say that He is not there in any sense, as our Faith teaches us He is everywhere, even if not modally in the Mystery.  Neither you nor I can say "He is not there."  Even if we can say with certainty in certain cases that His Body is not there, we cannot say that He is not there is some sense, otherwise we are liars when we say the "O Heavenly King" and other prayers which state the contrary. 
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« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.

Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

As I have mentioned on another thread, I do not believe Irish Hermit’s claim that the historical position of the Russian Orthodox Church is that Roman Catholic and Non-Chalcedonian sacraments are “authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves”.  As Irish Hermit has admitted elsewhere, this claim about the historical position of the Russian Orthodox Church comes solely from Fr. Alexander Lebedeff and is not based on historical documents of the Russian Orthodox Church.  When Fr. Alexander has made this claim, the documents he has quoted to support his claim do not at all suggest that Roman Catholics and Non-Chacedonians have grace-filled mysteries.  The documents themselves only acknowledge that Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians have *valid* sacramental forms as well as the form of apostolic succession.  Fr. Alexander has also demonstrated that the Russian Orthodox Church historically has received Roman Catholics without requiring baptism.  However, the recognition that *valid sacramental forms* exist outside of the Orthodox Church is an entirely separate issue from that of sacramental grace.  Met Anthony (Khrapovitsky), in his very good article on the use of oikonomia in receiving non-Orthodox into the Orthodox Church, explained the historical teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church when he stated that all sacramental forms outside of the Orthodox Church are empty forms and without grace.  When a person is received into the Orthodox Church who already had a proper *form* of baptism, that person’s reception into the Orthodox Church will complete and render grace-filled that which was a mere empty form *validly* administered outside of the Church.  So, with this view in mind, if a person already had a proper *form* of baptism, chrismation/confirmation, ordination, etc., the forms may not need to be repeated when such a person is received into the Orthodox Church.  However, the fact that the *forms* are not repeated does not at all suggest that the previously administered *forms* were grace-filled.  The fact that so many confuse the term “valid” with such terms as “salvific”, “grace-filled,” and “authentic” only emphasizes the problem with using oikonomia in accepting converts by any rite other than baptism.  This is precisely why ROCOR in 1971, and Fr. George Metallinos in his book “I Confess One Baptism”, recommend all converts to be received only by baptism.  As far as I know, receiving all converts by baptism is still the common practice in ROCOR, the Jerusalem Patriarchate, and on Mt. Athos, and I do hope that more will adopt this practice in the future.  There perhaps was a time when the use of oikonomia in the reception of converts was understood and could be exercised without resulting in the mass confusion that results from such a practice today.  I think that time has passed, and due to the widespread confusion that has resulted from the practice of oikonomia in this context, there is a great need to return to the more strict position of baptizing all converts. 

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« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.

Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

As I have mentioned on another thread, I do not believe Irish Hermit’s claim that the historical position of the Russian Orthodox Church is that Roman Catholic and Non-Chalcedonian sacraments are “authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves”.  As Irish Hermit has admitted elsewhere, this claim about the historical position of the Russian Orthodox Church comes solely from Fr. Alexander Lebedeff and is not based on historical documents of the Russian Orthodox Church.  When Fr. Alexander has made this claim, the documents he has quoted to support his claim do not at all suggest that Roman Catholics and Non-Chacedonians have grace-filled mysteries.  The documents themselves only acknowledge that Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians have *valid* sacramental forms as well as the form of apostolic succession.  Fr. Alexander has also demonstrated that the Russian Orthodox Church historically has received Roman Catholics without requiring baptism.  However, the recognition that *valid sacramental forms* exist outside of the Orthodox Church is an entirely separate issue from that of sacramental grace.  Met Anthony (Khrapovitsky), in his very good article on the use of oikonomia in receiving non-Orthodox into the Orthodox Church, explained the historical teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church when he stated that all sacramental forms outside of the Orthodox Church are empty forms and without grace.  When a person is received into the Orthodox Church who already had a proper *form* of baptism, that person’s reception into the Orthodox Church will complete and render grace-filled that which was a mere empty form *validly* administered outside of the Church.  So, with this view in mind, if a person already had a proper *form* of baptism, chrismation/confirmation, ordination, etc., the forms may not need to be repeated when such a person is received into the Orthodox Church.  However, the fact that the *forms* are not repeated does not at all suggest that the previously administered *forms* were grace-filled.  The fact that so many confuse the term “valid” with such terms as “salvific”, “grace-filled,” and “authentic” only emphasizes the problem with using oikonomia in accepting converts by any rite other than baptism.  This is precisely why ROCOR in 1971, and Fr. George Metallinos in his book “I Confess One Baptism”, recommend all converts to be received only by baptism.  As far as I know, receiving all converts by baptism is still the common practice in ROCOR, the Jerusalem Patriarchate, and on Mt. Athos, and I do hope that more will adopt this practice in the future.  There perhaps was a time when the use of oikonomia in the reception of converts was understood and could be exercised without resulting in the mass confusion that results from such a practice today.  I think that time has passed, and due to the widespread confusion that has resulted from the practice of oikonomia in this context, there is a great need to return to the more strict position of baptizing all converts. 



You have not gone back far enough in the relationship between Catholics east and west...and so your heartfelt assertion here does not hold up in the longer view.

I am sorry that you are so deeply convinced and convicted.  In these cases the truth is not always liberating, but is too often a yoke, lifted and discarded.
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« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2011, 10:38:54 AM »

I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church makes no judgment on the validity or lack thereof of the Roman sacraments.

I have never understood what that means.  Judgements are made frequently.  Every time a Catholic, an Anglican, a Lutheran, or a Pre-Chalcedonian or Old Catholic or a member of the Old Calendarist Churches is received into the canonical Church or wishes to marry an Orthodox Christian, judgements must be made as to their sacraments.  In some cases this is ad hoc by individual priests, in other cases the bishop has made the judgments and issued instructions to his priests.

In terms of this thread every Orthodox Christian entering a Catholic Church and seeing the Tabernacle or seeing the Host exposed in a Monstrance must make a judgement - to acknowledge that he is standing in the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ and to make some form of obeisance and worship, or to decide he is only in the presence of bread and ignore it.
What would you do?

Chesterton and Belloc were once visiting an Anglican church and one them genuflected to the tabernacle.

The other remonstrated:  You shouldn't do that.  There's nothing there.

The one who had genuflected replied:  Well, if He is there, He's there as a prisoner!"

Hey, don't shoot me.  I am just repeating a Chesterton-Belloc conversation.  Wink
So, just in case? Lol
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« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2011, 06:40:19 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

Would you mind sending them to me, too, please.

M.



Contents of quote box updated to match current text  -PtA

Mary, your ISP refuses to deliver them to you. Angry
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« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2011, 07:13:18 PM »

I understand that the Roman Church has valid sacraments.  there is a Catholic Church within short walking distance of my dad's house with eucharistic adoration.  can I go and pray with my (Orthodox) prayer books before our Lord there?  a friend is suffering liver failure, and I feel that I really need to do this, if it is OK.

Where did you get the idea that the Romanist "Eucharist" has the Real Presence?

Whether we like it or not we need to keep in mind that the the theological tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church has recognized for many centuries past that the sacraments of both Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians are authentic and grace-filled in and of themselves. In other words it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Roman Catholic priest ministers to the Catholic faithful, he has authority from Christ to remit sins, and the Pope and all the Catholic bishops are true bishops as is Pope Shenouda of the Copts. etc.
 
This teaching has been enshrined in  Russian canons since at least the medieval Moscow Councils, in accord with Constantinople 1484.    These canons have never been annulled and are still in force.
 
For an historical overview of this please see these two messages by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=17921
 
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind1101A&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&X=38DC714B13084CEDBA&Y=ambrois%40xtra.co.nz&P=18535
 
If you cannot access these, I would be happy to supply copies directly by e-mail.



Forbidden label replaced with something more acceptable... -PtA

Would you mind sending them to me, too, please.

M.



Contents of quote box updated to match current text  -PtA

Mary, your ISP refuses to deliver them to you. Angry

I find that passing strange!!...phoo

I'll see if I can find them or find out what happened to them...

try personal email removed



Personal email address removed to protect it against bots and other nefarious Web crawlers... If you want Irish Hermit to have your email address, I recommend you send it to him via PM. Thank you.  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 12:27:33 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2011, 06:15:21 PM »

There seems to be a new fad of not judging on OrthodoxChristianity.net so I would say in the spirit of not judging go right ahead and do whatever you think is best. No one should judge you.
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