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Author Topic: My Reception into the Church  (Read 1955 times) Average Rating: 0
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JimCBrooklyn
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« on: April 08, 2011, 02:04:54 PM »

I have a bit of confusion over my impending reception into the Orthodox Church. The date has been set, tentatively, for Thursday 21st of April, but the process that was described to me surprised me, based on what I've heard from other converts. I did not feel like contradicting my priest, however, especially without knowing if any of my concerns are justified. I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.
1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated? The thought here seems to be that my RC confirmation counts...
2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?
3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint, and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

Is this just a country-to-country thing?
In Christ,
Jim
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2011, 02:12:05 PM »

I believe There's a Serbian Orthodox Church in Russia,Give them a Visit ,Ask them to Baptise You ,if the Russian Orthodox Church won't do it ...The Serbian Church Being in Russia for so long speak's Russian aswell...... police
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2011, 02:27:19 PM »

I have a bit of confusion over my impending reception into the Orthodox Church. The date has been set, tentatively, for Thursday 21st of April, but the process that was described to me surprised me, based on what I've heard from other converts. I did not feel like contradicting my priest, however, especially without knowing if any of my concerns are justified. I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.
1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated? The thought here seems to be that my RC confirmation counts...
2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?
3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint, and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

Is this just a country-to-country thing?
In Christ,
Jim

mmmmm..Sounds like a miss understanding. You should be at least Chrismated and recite the various acclimations for accepting the Orthodox Faith and renouncing old heresies... Give the Priest a call. Sometime in the Russian Tradition they dont communicate very well what they are going to do.

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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2011, 02:31:44 PM »

Serbian Orthodox Church will guarantee you for sure, that you will renounce all the Latin heresies.....Like i said give them a visit....... Grin
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2011, 02:33:06 PM »

I have a bit of confusion over my impending reception into the Orthodox Church. The date has been set, tentatively, for Thursday 21st of April, but the process that was described to me surprised me, based on what I've heard from other converts. I did not feel like contradicting my priest, however, especially without knowing if any of my concerns are justified. I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.
1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated? The thought here seems to be that my RC confirmation counts...
2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?
3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint, and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

Is this just a country-to-country thing?
In Christ,
Jim

mmmmm..Sounds like a miss understanding. You should be at least Chrismated and recite the various acclimations for accepting the Orthodox Faith and renouncing old heresies... Give the Priest a call. Sometime in the Russian Tradition they dont communicate very well what they are going to do.


I would have also assumed this, except that the first time we discussed this, I actually did ask about it, and there seemed to be some confusion, and the I was told this again today...
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2011, 02:34:25 PM »

I have a bit of confusion over my impending reception into the Orthodox Church. The date has been set, tentatively, for Thursday 21st of April, but the process that was described to me surprised me, based on what I've heard from other converts. I did not feel like contradicting my priest,

Can you contact someone at the office of the Bishop who oversees your Priest and inform them that you're about to be received via recitation of the Nicene Creed without renouncing your RC beliefs?

however, especially without knowing if any of my concerns are justified. I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.

When some say on this forum, "ask your Priest."  Here, I suggest to "ask your Bishop."  What happens when you tell your Priest that you insist on being Chrismated and you would like to renounce your Roman Catholic beliefs in a forum besides Confession?   Huh

1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated? The thought here seems to be that my RC confirmation counts...
2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?
3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint, and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

Is this just a country-to-country thing?
In Christ,
Jim

The Bishop's office should give you adequate and consistent answers to the above questions.  The Bishop's office will give you the necessary letter or certificate to establish you as an Orthodox Christian (with your given Saint's name) in good standing.  You should be prepared to present this evidence to any Orthodox Church that you attend whether in Russia, USA or elsewhere.
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2011, 02:38:17 PM »

I have a bit of confusion over my impending reception into the Orthodox Church. The date has been set, tentatively, for Thursday 21st of April, but the process that was described to me surprised me, based on what I've heard from other converts. I did not feel like contradicting my priest, however, especially without knowing if any of my concerns are justified. I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.
1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated? The thought here seems to be that my RC confirmation counts...
2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?
3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint, and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

Is this just a country-to-country thing?
In Christ,
Jim

The Russian Orthodox Church (in Moscow and in the USA) often receives Catholics in this way.
You can ask for a certificate.

There was a case in California where a Catholic was received by Holy Communion with the consent of the Greek Bishop, but when a Catholic lady left Orthodoxy after having been received by Holy Communion into Orthodoxy, the Bishop allowed the former Catholic to be Chrismated, and so, he was chrismated a month after he received his First Holy Communion.

I was also received by Holy Chrismation. The ceremony included the recitation of the Nicene Creed, but I did not have to make any renunciations of Roman Catholic "errors." Instead, I was asked to affirm the Nicene Creed. Immediately after Chrismation, I made my confession, and in that confession, I admitted my former errors. With that Confession, I was given permission to receive my First Holy Communion in Holy Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2011, 02:43:55 PM »

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

Holy Orthodoxy shouldn't be watered down....Everyone that come's to Holy Orthodoxy from other so called Christian faith communities should be Baptised and Chrismated....... police
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2011, 02:47:50 PM »


..but, what if they have already been baptized in the Trinity (as RC's do).

"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2011, 02:49:55 PM »

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

Holy Orthodoxy shouldn't be watered down....Everyone that come's to Holy Orthodoxy from other so called Christian faith communities should be Baptised and Chrismated....... police

My bishop only allowed the baptism of former Catholics and Protestants when the original "Baptism" had been improperly performed, for example, when the words used were "in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier."
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2011, 02:52:15 PM »

JimCBrooklyn, IMHO you shouldn't be worried at all.

I was basically told to go to confession on that morning, then to attend the Liturgy, and recite the Creed along with the rest of the church when it is said, then to take Communion.

That's how I was received as well (the only difference was that I had to go to confession on Saturday evening).

1) As a former RC, I know that I don't need baptism, but is it odd to not be Chrismated?

If, as a former RC, you don't need baptism, you also don't need chrismation. If your baptism and chrismation were valid (opinions differ - as long as we can say for sure where the sacramental grace is, we cannot say with certainty where it is not, so it is an open question), there is no need to repeat them. If they were not, the moment you approach the sacrament of confession, the empty forms which were performed on you by RCs will be filled with grace and therefore you will become baptised and chrismated.

2) Do I not need to formally renounce certain RC beliefs?

I wasn't asked to do it. The act of joining the OC is a renunciation of certain RC beliefs per se.

3) Without an actual separate service of reception into the church, how do I receive a name of a patron saint . . .

You already have one - from your RC baptism. If it is a post-schism saint, then you should discuss the issue with your priest. If there is a pre-schism saint who also had such a name, then probably he will become your patron. If there is not, then the priest will pick up a name for you and probably all you will have to do will be to say that name at the moment of approaching the Chalice.

. . . and how do I document in any way that I am actually Orthodox?

I received a letter from my bishop stating that I will be received to the Orthodox Church. You also may ask for such a letter.

Is this just a country-to-country thing?

Country to country, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Generally speaking, it's an oikonomia vs akriveia thing.
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 02:52:43 PM »


..but, what if they have already been baptized in the Trinity (as RC's do).

"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."


Holy Orthodoxy's Holy Trinity and The Roman Catholic trinity are not the same ...Different" What we confess in our confession of faith is what we believe ,and what Catholics Confess different Trinity different god not the same, not our's..... police They have to be rebaptised......
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 03:00:04 PM »

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

You know better then the MP, the Polish Orthodox Church and probably some other jurisdictions. Roll Eyes Let bishops decide when to use akriveia and when oikonomia, OK?
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 03:02:15 PM »


..but, what if they have already been baptized in the Trinity (as RC's do).

"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."


Then they are just getting wet. But we are at such a state in Hetreodox practices that conservative Jurisdictions are uncertain of anything heterodox do  or say.  

Rocor also Baptizes. So to at least not be given Chrismation seems odd. The confession of errors in Private seems okay, but  Chrismation seems to me to be the minimum. But what do i know? Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission. Ask nicely.

Or..Just do exactly as your Priest tells you. if their is an error, it is on him not you. Obedience is a good way to start.
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 03:05:32 PM »

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 03:05:43 PM »


..but, what if they have already been baptized in the Trinity (as RC's do).

"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."


Then they are just getting wet. But we are at such a state in Hetreodox practices that conservative Jurisdictions are uncertain of anything heterodox do  or say.  

Rocor also Baptizes. So to at least not be given Chrismation seems odd. The confession of errors in Private seems okay, but  Chrismation seems to me to be the minimum. But what do i know? Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission. Ask nicely.

ROCOR is now part of the MP, is not that true, so why do the two differ in the administration of the Holy Mysteries?

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.

I agree. It is best to submit in silence and in respect. Holy Confession and Holy Communion will complete anything that is lacking.

Trust in God and be at peace.

My prayers.

By the way, Father Lev Gillet, of blessed memory (known as the Monk of the Eastern Church) was also received as an Orthodox Priest from Eastern Catholicism into Orthdooxy by concelebrating Divine Liturgy with the Orthodox Bishop. There was no baptism or chrismation or ordination.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »

Even the Protestant' s Trinity is Based on the Catholic romans trinity, so they also have to be Baptised ,when being recieved into Holy Orthodoxy......

If Canonical Orthodoxy Keeps watering down our faith ,Traditional Orthodox will leave and join the Traditional Orthodox Churches..... police
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 03:08:48 PM »

ROCOR is now part of the MP, is not that true, so why do the two differ in the administration of the Holy Mysteries?

Because a Synod of a semi-autonomous Church can have its own policy as far as the way of receiving converts is concerned. The ROCOR does not always baptise BTW.
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 03:11:42 PM »

If Canonical Orthodoxy Keeps watering down our faith ,Traditional Orthodox will leave and join the Traditional Orthodox Churches..... police

Go ahead. No one is holding you back.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 03:13:06 PM »

ROCOR is now part of the MP, is not that true, so why do the two differ in the administration of the Holy Mysteries?

Because a Synod of a semi-autonomous Church can have its own policy as far as the way of receiving converts is concerned. The ROCOR does not always baptise BTW.

You are correct, each Bishop has the authority to discern.
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2011, 03:15:49 PM »

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.

Obedience has its merits.

"Father, I was surfing the internet and I got some guidance that sounds better than yours"............
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2011, 03:17:33 PM »

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.

AFAIR he lives in the 'Northern Capital'.

That's how I was received as well (the only difference was that I had to go to confession on Saturday evening).

Where was it? You don't have to answer if you consider it's too personal Wink


Quote
I received a letter from my bishop stating that I will be received to the Orthodox Church. You also may ask for such a letter.

Is it the normal practise of Archbishop Abel (or Adam maybe?) or did you ask him for this?
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2011, 03:17:45 PM »

Obedience has its merits.

"Father, I was surfing the internet and I got some guidance that sounds better than yours"............

Yeah, I would avoid that by all means.
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »


..but, what if they have already been baptized in the Trinity (as RC's do).

"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."


Then they are just getting wet. But we are at such a state in Hetreodox practices that conservative Jurisdictions are uncertain of anything heterodox do  or say.  

Rocor also Baptizes. So to at least not be given Chrismation seems odd. The confession of errors in Private seems okay, but  Chrismation seems to me to be the minimum. But what do i know? Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission. Ask nicely.

ROCOR is now part of the MP, is not that true, so why do the two differ in the administration of the Holy Mysteries?

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.

I agree. It is best to submit in silence and in respect. Holy Confession and Holy Communion will complete anything that is lacking.

Trust in God and be at peace.

My prayers.

By the way, Father Lev Gillet, of blessed memory (known as the Monk of the Eastern Church) was also received as an Orthodox Priest from Eastern Catholicism into Orthdooxy by concelebrating Divine Liturgy with the Orthodox Bishop. There was no baptism or chrismation or ordination.

At least in Rocor under my Bishop, Eastern Rite Catholics are received differently than Latin Rite.
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 03:21:56 PM »

AFAIR he lives in the 'Northern Capital'.

What I had in mind was that he is under the jurisdiction of the MP.

Where was it? You don't have to answer if you consider it's too personal Wink

The Cathedral in Lublin.

Is it the normal practise of Archbishop Abel . . . ?

I guess so.
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2011, 03:42:59 PM »

If Canonical Orthodoxy and even Non Canonical Orthodox reject the roman catholic confession of faith as a heresy, and heretical, how is it that Canonical Orthodoxy can recognise there baptisim in there version of the the Holy Trinity that they confess in there confession of faith that we Orthodox  reject... police
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2011, 03:47:10 PM »

Call your Bishop or say to your Priest that you request Chrismation and to call his Bishop for permission.

I wouldn't do that. When in Rome (the third one in this case Wink), do as the Romans do.

Obedience has its merits.

"Father, I was surfing the internet and I got some guidance that sounds better than yours"............

Yeah, that sounds real bad!
Just looking for some input, I suppose, on whether there's anything I need to do further, or not.
I certainly see the value in obedience, that is kind of how I'm leaning on this...
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2011, 03:47:40 PM »

If Canonical Orthodoxy and even Non Canonical Orthodox rejects the roman catholic confession of faith as a heresy, and heretical, how is it that Canonical Orthodoxy can recognise there baptisim in there version of the the Holy Trinity that they confess in there confession of faith that Orthodox we reject... police

Are you really helping the OP with these comments?   Huh
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 03:50:59 PM »

If Canonical Orthodoxy and even Non Canonical Orthodox rejects the roman catholic confession of faith as a heresy, and heretical, how is it that Canonical Orthodoxy can recognise there baptisim in there version of the the Holy Trinity that they confess in there confession of faith that Orthodox we reject... police

Are you really helping the OP with these comments?   Huh

Just ignore him.  Everyone else is.  Please. angel
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 03:55:29 PM »

I'm not a bishop or priest, but in my opinion this is precisely where the generally-understood usage of economia breaks down.

Economia, binding and loosing, is supposed to be used for the sake of the faith of the person concerned. If is detrimental to the faith of a RC convert to not be chrismated, then I think they should be, even if the Church recognizes the RC confirmation. The over-use of economia can be just as harmful as being super-correct in every case.

(I myself wish I had been received by baptism, but the priest wouldn't hear of it. It would have helped me a lot at the time. So I understand the OP's concerns, and agree that it's worth having a talk with your priest about it.)
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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2011, 03:57:55 PM »

I certainly see the value in obedience . . .

You should also see the value of the fact that, as Maria wrote, "Holy Confession and Holy Communion will complete anything that is lacking". You already received the form of baptism and the form of chrismation. If these were just empty forms (as I wrote before, opinions vary - the Orthodox Church had no need to dogmatism this issue), then the first sacrament you receive in the OC will fill them with grace.
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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2011, 06:06:59 PM »

Even the Protestant' s Trinity is Based on the Catholic romans trinity, so they also have to be Baptised ,when being recieved into Holy Orthodoxy......

If Canonical Orthodoxy Keeps watering down our faith ,Traditional Orthodox will leave and join the Traditional Orthodox Churches..... police

Did you miss this? Here...let me repost:

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

You know better then the MP, the Polish Orthodox Church and probably some other jurisdictions. Roll Eyes Let bishops decide when to use akriveia and when oikonomia, OK?

You seem to forget that the Orthodox Church has only recently, and even now only rarely, baptized Roman Catholic converts. Historically they (along with the Oriental Orthodox) were received by confession of faith, as the OP describes, or sometimes also chrismation.

This is the oikonomia that has been given by the Holy Episcopate of our Church, to which you do not belong. Follow your bishop. I do remind you that the Serbian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the blessing of Patriarch Irinej (like him or not, he is consecrated as your first hierarch), and has been a member of the World Council of Churches since 1965.
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2011, 06:30:29 PM »

How is it that Holy Orthodoxy rejects condems roman catholics confession of faith as heretical ,.....But Accepts and or overlook's their Heretical trinitarian Baptisim when they convert to Holy Orthodoxy,and accepts them by chrismation....How Does Economy Correct something as grave and serious in believing and understanding the correct Orthodox Most Holy Trinity ....That's why i believe they should  all be re catechised and Baptisted and chrisimated upon entering Orthodoxy...... all roman catholic and protestants alike.... police



Even the Protestant' s Trinity is Based on the Catholic romans trinity, so they also have to be Baptised ,when being recieved into Holy Orthodoxy......

If Canonical Orthodoxy Keeps watering down our faith ,Traditional Orthodox will leave and join the Traditional Orthodox Churches..... police

Did you miss this? Here...let me repost:

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

You know better then the MP, the Polish Orthodox Church and probably some other jurisdictions. Roll Eyes Let bishops decide when to use akriveia and when oikonomia, OK?

You seem to forget that the Orthodox Church has only recently, and even now only rarely, baptized Roman Catholic converts. Historically they (along with the Oriental Orthodox) were received by confession of faith, as the OP describes, or sometimes also chrismation.

This is the oikonomia that has been given by the Holy Episcopate of our Church, to which you do not belong. Follow your bishop. I do remind you that the Serbian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the blessing of Patriarch Irinej (like him or not, he is consecrated as your first hierarch), and has been a member of the World Council of Churches since 1965.
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »

That's why i believe they should be all re catechised and Baptisted and chrisimated upon entering Orthodoxy...... all roman catholic and protestants alike.... police

It's too bad you are not some kind of pan-Orthodox adviser to all the primates of the Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2011, 07:03:53 PM »

How is it that Holy Orthodoxy rejects condems roman catholics confession of faith as heretical ,.....But Accepts and or overlook's their Heretical trinitarian Baptisim when they convert to Holy Orthodoxy,and accepts them by chrismation....How Does Economy Correct something as grave and serious in believing and understanding the correct Orthodox Most Holy Trinity ....That's why i believe they should  all be re catechised and Baptisted and chrisimated upon entering Orthodoxy...... all roman catholic and protestants alike.... police

Argumentum ad nauseam. I'm glad I didn't expect you to actually answer me.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 07:21:15 PM »

One thing i love about Orthodoxy ,i don't have to follow a ecumenist Patriarch, metropolitan or bishop ...I didn't even go to see him when he was here in Greater chicago Area, i stayed away.....Thou i do get the serbian church paper, [staza pravoslavna], the path of orthodoxy ...So i read all about him and his visit in the serbian paper though.... police


Even the Protestant' s Trinity is Based on the Catholic romans trinity, so they also have to be Baptised ,when being recieved into Holy Orthodoxy......

If Canonical Orthodoxy Keeps watering down our faith ,Traditional Orthodox will leave and join the Traditional Orthodox Churches..... police

Did you miss this? Here...let me repost:

I don't Agree With this post Above.... Roll Eyes

You know better then the MP, the Polish Orthodox Church and probably some other jurisdictions. Roll Eyes Let bishops decide when to use akriveia and when oikonomia, OK?

You seem to forget that the Orthodox Church has only recently, and even now only rarely, baptized Roman Catholic converts. Historically they (along with the Oriental Orthodox) were received by confession of faith, as the OP describes, or sometimes also chrismation.

This is the oikonomia that has been given by the Holy Episcopate of our Church, to which you do not belong. Follow your bishop. I do remind you that the Serbian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the blessing of Patriarch Irinej (like him or not, he is consecrated as your first hierarch), and has been a member of the World Council of Churches since 1965.
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2011, 07:29:44 PM »

One thing i love about Orthodoxy ,i don't have to follow a ecumenist Patriarch, metropolitan or bishop ...

You don't have to follow bishops in Orthodoxy? Yours is surely involved in ecumenism, as I mentioned. What does the church say about that again...?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 07:33:43 PM »

One thing i love about Orthodoxy ,i don't have to follow a ecumenist Patriarch, metropolitan or bishop ...

You don't have to follow bishops in Orthodoxy? Yours is surely involved in ecumenism, as I mentioned. What does the church say about that again...?  Roll Eyes


I've attended the Old Calendar Greek Churches ,That Father A.the owner of this forum belongs too..The Genuine Holy Orthodox Church..... Grin It was great I felt Blessed ,and they are Against Ecumenism.......
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2011, 05:21:26 PM »

So, I've gotten a lot of feedback from here, from a friend, and from a priest in the US, all somewhat varying, and there are still a few points that just aren't sitting right with me about this:

I understand that trinitarian baptism, regardless of context, is baptism, or at the very least the argument behind this idea. What is still stumping me is how asserting that RC confirmation (which, from what I understand, is distinct in it's content from Chrismation in a few ways, and at the end is symbolizing ones full entry into the Roman Catholic Church, specifically) is just as valid as Chrismation is not, in effect, putting the RC church on the same sacramental level with the EO church? Further, after my reception into the church, we are planning to have a ceremony formally blessing our marriage, which was done in a RC church. How does it follow that Chrismation would not have to be redone, but Matrimony would?

The second piece of trouble I'm having may be vanity, or pride at work. The lack of any actual, separate ceremony/rite of initiation in to the church is bugging me, both because it makes me confused as to when and how I am actually entering Orthodoxy, and because it seems almost anti-climactic to me for a moment that should be, in essence, among the most important of my life, if not THE most. I'm not suggesting a lot of pomp and circumstance, but just attending a liturgy and reading the creed seems...not what I imagined, anyhow, but this is not about my will!

Finally, I'm just concerned that with some of the jurisdictional issues back in the US, in contrast to the prevalence of the ROC here, I could encounter churches that would outright reject my being truly Orthodox, based on the way this is being carried out. Is this a valid concern?

Why does it not surprise me that as Lent begins to hit the home stretch, and as my entrance into the church nears, confusion from external and internal sources gets louder and louder? Are these those purple demons? Tongue
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2011, 05:53:24 PM »

Jim, the problem is, and you might not realize it, and internet communication is not really the best for this, but by becoming orthodox after being catholic, you're not making that big of a step. It might look to you now that it is, but historically, ortodox becoming catholic and the reverse, was never that much of a big deal. In 1948 when the commies banned the byzantine catholic church in Romania, catholics were received in the Orthodox church without  any sort of ceremony, chrismation or anything else. Priests were received as priests without being re-ordeined...and that is because the understanding was that Catholic sacraments were pefectly valid. Otherwise, why would the Romanian O. Church receive as full members people who, according to some here on the forum, and according to others in the wide world, are not even baptized, let alone ordained as priests, married, etc.?

What you are doing is special...but not because of the ceremony, but because you are doing what you think is the best for you and your family from a spiritual point of view.  
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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 06:22:00 PM »

What is still stumping me is how asserting that RC confirmation (which, from what I understand, is distinct in it's content from Chrismation in a few ways, and at the end is symbolizing ones full entry into the Roman Catholic Church, specifically) is just as valid as Chrismation is not, in effect, putting the RC church on the same sacramental level with the EO church?

The EOC doesn't officially say that RC confirmation equals EO chrismation. But it also doesn't say that it does not. This is a question open for theological debate. But one thing is quite certain: that even if the RC sacrament is graceless, its form is valid, and its grace will be delivered at the moment when the person in question receives the first sacrament in the EOC.

Further, after my reception into the church, we are planning to have a ceremony formally blessing our marriage, which was done in a RC church. How does it follow that Chrismation would not have to be redone, but Matrimony would?

Probably because RC confirmation is, just as EO chrismation, administered by a priest (with only difference that in the RCC he normally have to be a bishop), while RC matrimony is actually administered by the fiance and fiancee themselves (a priest, a deacon or a lay ecclesiastical delegate is only a witness) and not by a priest as it is done in the EOC.

The lack of any actual, separate ceremony/rite of initiation in to the church is bugging me, both because it makes me confused as to when and how I am actually entering Orthodoxy. . .

I would really need to know that, you can think of the moment of receiving the Eucharist as THE moment.

. . . and because it seems almost anti-climactic to me for a moment that should be, in essence, among the most important of my life, if not THE most.

Take your time to prepar yourself for Communion (fasting, prayers, Vespers, honest and detailed confession ==> http://morespaciousthantheheavens.blogspot.com/2010/03/preparation-for-communion.html) and also to thank God for it (there are many sufficient prayers, e.g., http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/after.html) and, well, you will see. Smiley

Finally, I'm just concerned that with some of the jurisdictional issues back in the US, in contrast to the prevalence of the ROC here, I could encounter churches that would outright reject my being truly Orthodox, based on the way this is being carried out. Is this a valid concern?

You don't need to describe to every Orthodox Christian the way how you were received. But be there any problem, you can simply say that that's how it's done under Patr. Kirill, the primate of the greatest (as far as the number of people is concerned) Orthodox Church in the world.
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2011, 11:04:42 AM »

On the subject of how converts are received into the Orthodox Church, I don't think there is a better article than the following by Met Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/khrap_econ.aspx

Met Anthony here explains the canonical basis for using economia in the reception of converts by means other than baptism.  Met Anthony showed how converts could be received just by confession under certain conditions (they formerly received baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity, a correct form of baptism had been conducted, they had formerly been confirmed, and formerly belonged to a "church" with apostolic succession).  However, Met Anthony was VERY clear that even when a person is received by confession alone, all they previously received as a non-Orthodox were empty sacramental forms that did not contain sanctifying grace.  Regardless of how a person is received, the act of being received into the Church fills with grace and completes all sacramental forms that were administered outside of the Church. 


This subject creates a great deal of confusion, which is why it is probably best just to receive all converts by baptism.  If another rite is used in the reception of converts, it should at least be thoroughly explained to the convert why another rite is used and what the Orthodox Church thinks about the sacramental forms administered outside of the Church, in order to avoid confusion. 

When we say "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins", and we receive a Roman Catholic without requiring that they be baptized, we are not saying that their former "baptism" was effective for the remission of sins, but in a mystical way it becomes effective upon entering the Church on account of the grace that resides in the Orthodox Church.
 
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2011, 01:49:20 PM »

On the subject of how converts are received into the Orthodox Church, I don't think there is a better article than the following by Met Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/khrap_econ.aspx

Met Anthony here explains the canonical basis for using economia in the reception of converts by means other than baptism.  Met Anthony showed how converts could be received just by confession under certain conditions (they formerly received baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity, a correct form of baptism had been conducted, they had formerly been confirmed, and formerly belonged to a "church" with apostolic succession).  However, Met Anthony was VERY clear that even when a person is received by confession alone, all they previously received as a non-Orthodox were empty sacramental forms that did not contain sanctifying grace.  Regardless of how a person is received, the act of being received into the Church fills with grace and completes all sacramental forms that were administered outside of the Church. 


This subject creates a great deal of confusion, which is why it is probably best just to receive all converts by baptism.  If another rite is used in the reception of converts, it should at least be thoroughly explained to the convert why another rite is used and what the Orthodox Church thinks about the sacramental forms administered outside of the Church, in order to avoid confusion. 

When we say "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins", and we receive a Roman Catholic without requiring that they be baptized, we are not saying that their former "baptism" was effective for the remission of sins, but in a mystical way it becomes effective upon entering the Church on account of the grace that resides in the Orthodox Church.
 

This is very helpful. Thank you.
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