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« on: April 07, 2011, 03:32:35 AM »

Could someone explain to me why it seems like monks often have divergent and even crazed views regarding sex that are regularly dismissed by the rest of the Church? If this is truly the reality, then how can the claim to have unity in teaching regarding ethics be true? And why is the opinion of the married to be taken as authoritative rather than that of the monks?
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 03:42:27 AM »

Category: Things that do not go together.
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 03:47:21 AM »

Could someone explain to me why it seems like monks often have divergent and even crazed views regarding sex that are regularly dismissed by the rest of the Church?

Any examples of that?
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 03:48:06 AM »

I think there are all kinds of opinions in all kinds of life. That being said... perhaps part of it is that people who have stricter views on sex are more likely to be drawn to monasticism. Or perhaps people who are monastics feel more free to be stricter regarding sexuality, since that's the lifestyle they (hopefully) live anyway. Or probably all of that and more...? St. John Chrysostom is an interesting case, as he was stricter earlier in life, but as he did more and more pastoring he began to be more pastorally sensitive and willing to be a bit less strict with things. For example, early on while at Antioch he claimed that the only reason for sex was to avoid fornication; later he changed his view to allow for two justifications: procreation and avoiding fornication; and later he seemed to even modify this further (e.g. in his discussion on infertile couples having sex), saying that the bond of love formed during sex was another justifiable reason. (One might also add even another one: the mutual support in progressing towards salvation).
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 04:05:05 AM »

Could someone explain to me why it seems like monks often have divergent and even crazed views regarding sex that are regularly dismissed by the rest of the Church?

Any examples of that?

This was in considering these two threads:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13366.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35067.0.html
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 07:34:10 AM »

I honestly do not see them as "crazed" per se.  I think they are rational people.

My issue with these men are their lack of understanding on the subject matter.

A monk that has never been married, experienced the bonding of matrimony, would have no idea what it is about.  Even the most intelligent people can't imagine the dynamics of marriage.  They don't understand the care, time, giving, or understandings that you have to give ANOTHER PERSON while at the same time being physically connected (the two become one flesh).

Absolutely they are bonded to the person & God of Christ and I understand that.  But marriage is much different.  There is no way I can describe this without sounding "bad", but God "isn't completely physically in the flesh here".   He's not here for a foot massage, a hurt back, a hard day at work (physically in person).  Your spouse is.   So the person that monk is bonded to isn't "physically here in the flesh".   

Of course again, with our spouse we are also physically connected.  I don't see how a monk who is celibate can have the experience to make any authoritative statement on the subject.   Not circumventing their intelligence, but marriage is an experience like no other that one can't understand without the experience.
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 08:27:44 AM »

Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea.

</sarcasm>

It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married.

But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate.

I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will.

Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 10:16:35 AM »

well not all non-monastics reject their teachings. i know married people who accept their teachings completely. the experience i have with people is that they feel offended that someone might suggest that their way of life is not greatest thing ever. rejecting monastic teachings seems to arise from pride, at least in the people i know who have a problem with them.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 11:47:13 AM »

My Godfather is a monk, and I have to say that there is often a misconception about monastics.  First off, not all monks are unmarried, or have never been married.  It was not uncommon in times past (and I have heard that it is still common in the East) that widowed priests would become monks.  In fact, many pious widowers would also become monks.  I had read once that one of the differences between Eastern and Western monasticism is the larger number of monks and nuns who were married in the East as opposed to the West.

Second, we also need to keep in mind that people in general, not just monks, strike out most violently against the demons that they battle the most.  We need look no farther than some of the scandals in Protestant churches to see this.  Often a pastor who most violently speaks out against homosexuality is caught being a homo himself, or the ones that speak out against pornography end up being caught with a prostitute and porn in the car (yes, this happened).  Some of the most prohibitionist Baptist preachers that I have personally known were recovered alcoholics.  This does not mean that the monks who speak out against sex are some kind of pervert, but it could really mean that they fight the demon of lust, and therefor know how ensnaring of a demon it can be.  While I am a strong supporter of considering sex in marriage as sinless, I also know that it is not always so.  If you are having relations with your wife while thinking of someone else, is this not a form of adultery?  Marriage does not conquer the demon of lust, and some monks are well aware of that.

Also, not all celibate monks offer an opinion on marital sex.  I once asked my Godfather if I should confess my sins to him or to the parish priest (I have a strong love for both of them).  He told me that a married man should confess to a married priest.  Monks fight a different battle than a married man must fight.  So not all monks are willing to step into areas where they have no experience.  As Earl Butts once said "He no playa de game, he no maka the rules".  He was referring to the Pope and contraception in this case.
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 12:42:16 PM »

My Godfather is a monk, and I have to say that there is often a misconception about monastics.  First off, not all monks are unmarried, or have never been married.  It was not uncommon in times past (and I have heard that it is still common in the East) that widowed priests would become monks.  In fact, many pious widowers would also become monks.  I had read once that one of the differences between Eastern and Western monasticism is the larger number of monks and nuns who were married in the East as opposed to the West.

Second, we also need to keep in mind that people in general, not just monks, strike out most violently against the demons that they battle the most.  We need look no farther than some of the scandals in Protestant churches to see this.  Often a pastor who most violently speaks out against homosexuality is caught being a homo himself, or the ones that speak out against pornography end up being caught with a prostitute and porn in the car (yes, this happened).  Some of the most prohibitionist Baptist preachers that I have personally known were recovered alcoholics.  This does not mean that the monks who speak out against sex are some kind of pervert, but it could really mean that they fight the demon of lust, and therefor know how ensnaring of a demon it can be.  While I am a strong supporter of considering sex in marriage as sinless, I also know that it is not always so.  If you are having relations with your wife while thinking of someone else, is this not a form of adultery?  Marriage does not conquer the demon of lust, and some monks are well aware of that.

Also, not all celibate monks offer an opinion on marital sex.  I once asked my Godfather if I should confess my sins to him or to the parish priest (I have a strong love for both of them).  He told me that a married man should confess to a married priest.  Monks fight a different battle than a married man must fight.  So not all monks are willing to step into areas where they have no experience.  As Earl Butts once said "He no playa de game, he no maka the rules".  He was referring to the Pope and contraception in this case.

Well stated.
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 12:55:05 PM »


Ditto.
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 01:58:18 PM »

well not all non-monastics reject their teachings. i know married people who accept their teachings completely. the experience i have with people is that they feel offended that someone might suggest that their way of life is not greatest thing ever. rejecting monastic teachings seems to arise from pride, at least in the people i know who have a problem with them.
Are you suggesting that there is nothing as monastic pride?  Read Jerome. He is full of it.
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2011, 02:00:00 PM »

Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea.

</sarcasm>

It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married.

But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate.

I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will.

Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2011, 02:03:18 PM »

well not all non-monastics reject their teachings. i know married people who accept their teachings completely. the experience i have with people is that they feel offended that someone might suggest that their way of life is not greatest thing ever. rejecting monastic teachings seems to arise from pride, at least in the people i know who have a problem with them.
Are you suggesting that there is nothing as monastic pride?  Read Jerome. He is full of it.

St. John Climacus talks about monastic pride quite a bit in the Ladder, too.  Honestly, from what he writes about in there, he seems to say that monks, as a class, are worse than non-monastics because the latter aren't the hypocrites most monks are.
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2011, 02:24:26 PM »

well not all non-monastics reject their teachings. i know married people who accept their teachings completely. the experience i have with people is that they feel offended that someone might suggest that their way of life is not greatest thing ever. rejecting monastic teachings seems to arise from pride, at least in the people i know who have a problem with them.
Are you suggesting that there is nothing as monastic pride?  Read Jerome. He is full of it.

i lived in a monastery for 10 months. i know about monastic pride.
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2011, 03:13:42 PM »


Ditto.

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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2011, 03:26:54 PM »

I would be very hesitant to discount the advice of monastics on marriage and marital relations solely on the basis that they are not married and perhaps never were.  I would also be very hesitant to accept the advice of a monastic on marriage and marital relations solely on the basis that the giver of advice happens to be a monastic.  The Fathers all advise the use of discernment in choosing a spiritual father, as living in a monastery does not render one automatically able to give sound advice on any or every matter.  If the monastic is not one’s spiritual father, or is not an appointed confessor, one might be skeptical about the free giving of such advice in the first place.  

In a good monastic, what one expects to find is some experience in the spiritual warfare and a deep understanding of the life we are called to as Orthodox Christians, as well as thorough understanding of the teachings of the Holy Fathers and of the Holy Scriptures pertaining to all areas of life.  One concern I have with disregarding the advice of monastics simply because of their non-married state, is that this same rationale can easily lead us to discount the words of St. Paul, the Holy Fathers, and even the Lord Himself on these subjects, since all of them (or most) lived in an unmarried state.  If a monastic gives advice on marital relations within the appropriate context (as your spiritual father or in response to something shared in confession), it would not be out of order to ask him from where the teaching given originates.  Is the monastic following the Tradition of the Church and the mind of the Fathers, or just giving his own opinion?  If giving his own opinion, does he admit so and leave you free to follow his opinion or not, or does he try to establish his opinion as if it were the only true teaching of the Church (if so, find someone else to talk to!)?  Likewise, if one asks their married parish priest for advice on marriage and marital relations, it would not be out of order to ask for him to share with you the basis of his advice in the Fathers and the Holy Scriptures.  Just as monastics may have a very strict and “according to the Fathers” approach to matters because of their singular focus and the context within which they work out their salvation, married parish priests may become very permissive in certain areas because they are constantly dealing with people whose lives are so far from the mark of what we are called to as Christians.  

Discernment is one of the chief virtues and must be exercised in all contexts, and in asking for texts from the Fathers to back up certain claims, this should not be done in a spirit of putting the advice-giver to the test, but rather with the hope of firmly grounding oneself in the mind of the Church, which is the mind of Christ.      
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 05:06:55 PM »

Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea.

</sarcasm>

It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married.

But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate.

I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will.

Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 05:08:56 PM »

Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea.

</sarcasm>

It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married.

But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate.

I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will.

Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

People have been far too uncritical in interpreting that one.
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 05:39:42 PM »

Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea.

</sarcasm>

It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married.

But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate.

I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will.

Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

People have been far too uncritical in interpreting that one.
How critical should it be interpreted?
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »

Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Well, I'm not dead yet and something else still rises, so I think that I will forgo the monastic life and enjoy the married life for now.
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 06:24:54 PM »

Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Well, I'm not dead yet and something else still rises, so I think that I will forgo the monastic life and enjoy the married life for now.

What, no "living as brother and sister" for Punch?  angel
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 07:04:02 PM »

I know that you inteded your statement for fun, but it really is a good question.  I would have to say that in normal cases, no.  I do not believe in living as brother and sister, unless I am in Arkansas.  However, if my wife were to find herself in a condition where she could not perform her maritial duties, I believe that I would be bound by duty and love for her (not to mention my mariage vows) to remain faithfull to her, or maybe kill her (just joking on that last part).  I have been told by an Orthodox priest that such a condition would be canonical grounds for a divorce.  Oh well, being a radical Old Calendarist, I have been accused before of not taking the canons too seriously.  I think that I would keep her, and pray that God take care of any obsticals to doing so.

Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Well, I'm not dead yet and something else still rises, so I think that I will forgo the monastic life and enjoy the married life for now.

What, no "living as brother and sister" for Punch?  angel
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 10:01:13 PM »

I know that you inteded your statement for fun, but it really is a good question.  I would have to say that in normal cases, no.  I do not believe in living as brother and sister, unless I am in Arkansas.  However, if my wife were to find herself in a condition where she could not perform her maritial duties, I believe that I would be bound by duty and love for her (not to mention my mariage vows) to remain faithfull to her, or maybe kill her (just joking on that last part).  I have been told by an Orthodox priest that such a condition would be canonical grounds for a divorce.  Oh well, being a radical Old Calendarist, I have been accused before of not taking the canons too seriously.  I think that I would keep her, and pray that God take care of any obsticals to doing so.

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 12:06:36 AM »

I agree.  However, from what I have found in my readings, the Russian Church is about the only one that would not (at least officially) allow a divorce under those circumstances.   

I know that you inteded your statement for fun, but it really is a good question.  I would have to say that in normal cases, no.  I do not believe in living as brother and sister, unless I am in Arkansas.  However, if my wife were to find herself in a condition where she could not perform her maritial duties, I believe that I would be bound by duty and love for her (not to mention my mariage vows) to remain faithfull to her, or maybe kill her (just joking on that last part).  I have been told by an Orthodox priest that such a condition would be canonical grounds for a divorce.  Oh well, being a radical Old Calendarist, I have been accused before of not taking the canons too seriously.  I think that I would keep her, and pray that God take care of any obsticals to doing so.

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2011, 12:21:18 AM »

Russian church has the most conservative approach to divorce?

I agree.  However, from what I have found in my readings, the Russian Church is about the only one that would not (at least officially) allow a divorce under those circumstances.   

I know that you inteded your statement for fun, but it really is a good question.  I would have to say that in normal cases, no.  I do not believe in living as brother and sister, unless I am in Arkansas.  However, if my wife were to find herself in a condition where she could not perform her maritial duties, I believe that I would be bound by duty and love for her (not to mention my mariage vows) to remain faithfull to her, or maybe kill her (just joking on that last part).  I have been told by an Orthodox priest that such a condition would be canonical grounds for a divorce.  Oh well, being a radical Old Calendarist, I have been accused before of not taking the canons too seriously.  I think that I would keep her, and pray that God take care of any obsticals to doing so.

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2011, 01:01:42 AM »

Lord have mercy. Now I understand why one Greek Orthodox Priest was advocating for divorce so freely. Lord have mercy.

I agree.  However, from what I have found in my readings, the Russian Church is about the only one that would not (at least officially) allow a divorce under those circumstances. 

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2011, 01:10:28 AM »

It does not say that they are not already married, but rather that in the Kingdom they no longer marry or are given in marriage.   In other words, if they are unmarried, they do not marry, and if they are married, they do not marry again. 
Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea. </sarcasm>It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married. But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate. I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will. Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 01:11:59 AM »

Ah, thank you, that's precisely what I had in mind.  Smiley

It does not say that they are not already married, but rather that in the Kingdom they no longer marry or are given in marriage.   In other words, if they are unmarried, they do not marry, and if they are married, they do not marry again. 
Because there's no such things as monks who ever dated, had a significant other, had sex (or even fornicated), or were once married. Monks were repressed from birth and have no idea. </sarcasm>It may be true that some monks don't understand the married road to salvation, but some also know it very well. Some saints who had "crazy" views on sex were married. But I maintain that experiencing theosis probably puts things in a perspective that seems strange to those who are still passionate. I recently heard a talk given by an Australian monk who pointed out that while theosis produces true love, and one is not a saint who does not love like God loves, the highest thing even above love is discernment. Perhaps those scant few who attain true discernment realize different things about sex and relationships than most orthodox ever will. Perhaps this is because marriage and sex will have no place and will not exist in the Kingdom, so celibacy is indeed a factor in our ultimate state.
I don't recall where it says we will be all monks in our ultimate state.
Perhaps not a "monk", but close enough. Mark 12:25:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 01:14:05 AM »


Yes
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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2011, 01:25:29 AM »

I should hope not.  That is certainly only true if we are looking at the US, and even then not throughout.   

Lord have mercy. Now I understand why one Greek Orthodox Priest was advocating for divorce so freely. Lord have mercy.

I agree.  However, from what I have found in my readings, the Russian Church is about the only one that would not (at least officially) allow a divorce under those circumstances. 

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.

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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2011, 08:32:26 AM »

It does not say that they are not already married, but rather that in the Kingdom they no longer marry or are given in marriage.   In other words, if they are unmarried, they do not marry, and if they are married, they do not marry again. 

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the question which prompted the response of the Lord. 

Quote
Matt 22:23-30

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying , Master, Moses said , If a man die , having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased , and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err , not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry , nor are given in marriage , but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So, according to you, if those married on earth continue to be married in heaven, and yet are neither married nor given in marriage in heaven, who would the woman be married to if she had seven husbands on earth?  Also, is it not possible that in a marriage one may inherit eternal life and the other inherit eternal condemnation?   
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2011, 08:52:51 AM »

I should hope not.  That is certainly only true if we are looking at the US, and even then not throughout.   

Lord have mercy. Now I understand why one Greek Orthodox Priest was advocating for divorce so freely. Lord have mercy.

I agree.  However, from what I have found in my readings, the Russian Church is about the only one that would not (at least officially) allow a divorce under those circumstances. 

Switch the partners.

What happens when a husband reaches old age, becomes impotent, and does not wish to use Viagra even though his younger wife still desires the marital embrace? Is it not true that spouses are to remain faithful even if they can no longer embrace each other in their older age? Please do not tell me that there is a canon that would allow the younger or healthier spouse to divorce.


I was looking at resources for the Greek Orthodox Church (US), Church of Cyprus, Bulgarian Orthodox Church, and Russian Orthodox Church.  These were the only English sources I could find.  I was also told the Serbian Orthodox Churches conditions in class.  Of all, the Russians were more conservative, by far.
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2011, 10:21:11 AM »

It does not say that they are not already married, but rather that in the Kingdom they no longer marry or are given in marriage.   In other words, if they are unmarried, they do not marry, and if they are married, they do not marry again. 

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the question which prompted the response of the Lord. 

Quote
Matt 22:23-30

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying , Master, Moses said , If a man die , having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased , and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err , not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry , nor are given in marriage , but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So, according to you, if those married on earth continue to be married in heaven, and yet are neither married nor given in marriage in heaven, who would the woman be married to if she had seven husbands on earth?  Also, is it not possible that in a marriage one may inherit eternal life and the other inherit eternal condemnation?   

If the marriage bond is totally broken, why all the scriptural and patristic encouragement of widow(er)s not to remarriage, and the condemnation of remarriage with no reference to whether the former spouse is living?

Btw, as we had a canonist post the canon that makes the married couple the ultimate jury on their relations and fasting, and I"ve racked my head for any canon that says that fasting ipso facto means total abstinence during the Fasts, I was reminded of hearing someone say that Bright Week-where fasting is forbidden, and so one would think that would mean a week of "guilt free" lovemaking-alas no! that couples should not enjoy the marital embrace during Bright Week, so that they could "live as the angels of God in heaven." Shocked

What is interesting in the Mark and related passages that the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd seem miss that the Apostles reject Christ's definition of marriage in that passage because it is too easy, but because it is too hard.  So much for marriage being "the easy" way.
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2011, 01:02:50 PM »

If the marriage bond is totally broken, why all the scriptural and patristic encouragement of widow(er)s not to remarriage, and the condemnation of remarriage with no reference to whether the former spouse is living?

Perhaps you could provide some scriptural and patristic words regarding marriage as an eternal bond?  Is it not enough that the Lord said:

Quote

Mathew 19:4-6

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

There is also:

Quote
Ephesians 5:31-32

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Above it seems clear that the Lord intended in marriage for a husband and wife to become “one flesh”, commanding that “what God has joined together, let not man separate.”  Then, we see how marriage is intended to reflect the faithfulness of Christ towards his Church.  As you know, being married more than once is permitted in some cases in the Orthodox Church, but second marriages are carried out in a penitential manner because second marriages do  not properly reflect God’s will for two to become one flesh and for man to not separate that which God has joined together.  If you are advocating that people in heaven who are married on earth are considered married in heaven, and the Lord was simply saying that people do not get married when they are in heaven (which has nothing to do with the question he was asked), how would you respond to the question posed to the Lord about the woman who was married seven times?  If you believe in an “eternal bond of marriage”, please provide some scriptural and patristic support for this belief.

What is interesting in the Mark and related passages that the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd seem miss that the Apostles reject Christ's definition of marriage in that passage because it is too easy, but because it is too hard.  So much for marriage being "the easy" way.

The Apostles balked at the absolute requirement that a man have one wife without the ability to divorce her (except for very limited circumstances where this would be permissible).  This was and is a hard way when compared with the easy way of marrying and divorcing at will.  But regarding marriage and virginity, see the following words of St. Athanasius the Great:

Quote
St. Athanasius the Great, First Epistle to the monk Amun

For, there being two roads in life as regards these matters, the one a more moderate and helpful road conducive to life, that of marriage, I mean; the other one being angelic and unsurpassable, that of virginity; but if anyone should choose the mundane life, that is to say, the way of marriage, though he is not liable to censure or blame, he will not receive so many gracious gifts. For what he will receive when he bears fruit will be thirty. But if he embraces the chaste and supramundane life, though the road is rough in comparison with the first and difficult to achieve, yet it has more wonderful features in the way of gracious gifts: for it has produced the perfect fruit, the hundred.

Many other such passages are found in the Fathers.  Do you wish to ridicule them?  I am a married man with four children, and am exceedingly thankful for the marriage with which I have been blessed, but I have no problem believing that monastic life is a greater calling.  How can you read St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and come to a different conclusion?  This humbles me but doesn’t infuriate me.  Why does it seem to infuriate others? 

What about the following?

Quote
Matthew 19:12

"For… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

Do not these words from the Lord, and those of St. Paul to the Corinthians, clearly establish what is the higher or better way?  Now regarding virginity in marriage, one only has to read “Marriage as a Path to Holiness” to see many examples of saints who have chosen this way and been blessed by God.  St. John of Kronstadt is one more recent saint who was married and yet lived with his wife as “brother and sister”.  If we aren’t able to do that, or simply don’t want to, we should be humble about this and not try to condemn those who can, simply because we are offended by our weaknesses.


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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 01:47:24 PM »

If the marriage bond is totally broken, why all the scriptural and patristic encouragement of widow(er)s not to remarriage, and the condemnation of remarriage with no reference to whether the former spouse is living?

Perhaps you could provide some scriptural and patristic words regarding marriage as an eternal bond?  Is it not enough that the Lord said:

Quote

Mathew 19:4-6

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

There is also:

Quote
Ephesians 5:31-32

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Above it seems clear that the Lord intended in marriage for a husband and wife to become “one flesh”, commanding that “what God has joined together, let not man separate.”  Then, we see how marriage is intended to reflect the faithfulness of Christ towards his Church.  As you know, being married more than once is permitted in some cases in the Orthodox Church, but second marriages are carried out in a penitential manner because second marriages do  not properly reflect God’s will for two to become one flesh and for man to not separate that which God has joined together.  If you are advocating that people in heaven who are married on earth are considered married in heaven, and the Lord was simply saying that people do not get married when they are in heaven (which has nothing to do with the question he was asked), how would you respond to the question posed to the Lord about the woman who was married seven times?  If you believe in an “eternal bond of marriage”, please provide some scriptural and patristic support for this belief.

What is interesting in the Mark and related passages that the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd seem miss that the Apostles reject Christ's definition of marriage in that passage because it is too easy, but because it is too hard.  So much for marriage being "the easy" way.

The Apostles balked at the absolute requirement that a man have one wife without the ability to divorce her (except for very limited circumstances where this would be permissible).  This was and is a hard way when compared with the easy way of marrying and divorcing at will.  But regarding marriage and virginity, see the following words of St. Athanasius the Great:

Quote
St. Athanasius the Great, First Epistle to the monk Amun

For, there being two roads in life as regards these matters, the one a more moderate and helpful road conducive to life, that of marriage, I mean; the other one being angelic and unsurpassable, that of virginity; but if anyone should choose the mundane life, that is to say, the way of marriage, though he is not liable to censure or blame, he will not receive so many gracious gifts. For what he will receive when he bears fruit will be thirty. But if he embraces the chaste and supramundane life, though the road is rough in comparison with the first and difficult to achieve, yet it has more wonderful features in the way of gracious gifts: for it has produced the perfect fruit, the hundred.

Many other such passages are found in the Fathers.  Do you wish to ridicule them?  I am a married man with four children, and am exceedingly thankful for the marriage with which I have been blessed, but I have no problem believing that monastic life is a greater calling.  How can you read St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and come to a different conclusion?  This humbles me but doesn’t infuriate me.  Why does it seem to infuriate others? 

What about the following?

Quote
Matthew 19:12

"For… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

Do not these words from the Lord, and those of St. Paul to the Corinthians, clearly establish what is the higher or better way?  Now regarding virginity in marriage, one only has to read “Marriage as a Path to Holiness” to see many examples of saints who have chosen this way and been blessed by God.  St. John of Kronstadt is one more recent saint who was married and yet lived with his wife as “brother and sister”.  If we aren’t able to do that, or simply don’t want to, we should be humble about this and not try to condemn those who can, simply because we are offended by our weaknesses.




Very well stated.

Many older married couples live as brother and sister in sanctity offering up their chastity to the Lord.
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2011, 02:22:57 PM »

Jah - the only thing i would add is that i think it is true that the marriage bond is eternal. our marriage service has no "till death do us part." i have been taught that the marriage crowns are together on the heavenly altar. although there will obviously not be sexual relations in Heaven, the bond remains i think - ideally that relationship is part of what got you to Heaven in the first place!
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 02:28:00 PM »

Jah - the only thing i would add is that i think it is true that the marriage bond is eternal. our marriage service has no "till death do us part." i have been taught that the marriage crowns are together on the heavenly altar. although there will obviously not be sexual relations in Heaven, the bond remains i think - ideally that relationship is part of what got you to Heaven in the first place!

Indeed, marriage is martyrdom and a school of sanctity where we die to our self will and learn to love our spouse as God has loved us.
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 03:34:08 PM »

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the question which prompted the response of the Lord...Matt 22:23-30...

Two things: 

1. The church fathers state (and that is the context of the conversation in Scripture) that the phrase “marry and are given in marriage” refers to the practice of repetitive marriage, in this case levirate marriage, and particularly the bastardized version of it as “contract inheritance” of two persons rather than as the religious gift of God whereby the two become one which also became polygamous (multiple marriages).   It is for this reason that St. John Chrysostom states that they are being told by Christ to rather than “marry or be given in marriage” according to the world where they marry over and over again using levirate marriage as an excuse, rather they should follow those of old and adhere to the higher marriage that lasts forever that is the gift of God.   But it seems evident that this statement as is applies to all marriages.  There will be no marriages performed in the resurrection.   It is something that is given in this life.  If it is performed as a mystery under apostolic authority, then we know that “whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18.18).  It is for this reason that St. Peter is able to speak of the husband and wife “as being heirs together of the grace of life” 1 Peter 3.7   If the two become one, and “heirs together” of the life of the Kingdom (as St. Peter says) and like the angels live without dying, then there can be no practice as there is now of marriage, death, marriage, death, marriage death.   

2.  They are not “like the angels” because they are unmarried, but rather in that they don’t die, as Luke’s account clarifies:  “and they can no longer die, for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.” (Luke 20.36).  In other words, “marry and given in marriage” refers to remarriage over and over again, as they proposed.   They can’t die, so there can be no repetitive “marrying and giving in marriage.”   Therefore Christ is saying the exact opposite of what some are taking from the passage.  The Sadducees were stating that marriage ended with death.  Christ is saying, no it doesn’t—for those of the resurrection do not die, just as the angels do not die. 
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2011, 03:47:14 PM »

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the question which prompted the response of the Lord...Matt 22:23-30...

Two things: 

1. The church fathers state (and that is the context of the conversation in Scripture) that the phrase “marry and are given in marriage” refers to the practice of repetitive marriage, in this case levirate marriage, and particularly the bastardized version of it as “contract inheritance” of two persons rather than as the religious gift of God whereby the two become one which also became polygamous (multiple marriages).   It is for this reason that St. John Chrysostom states that they are being told by Christ to rather than “marry or be given in marriage” according to the world where they marry over and over again using levirate marriage as an excuse, rather they should follow those of old and adhere to the higher marriage that lasts forever that is the gift of God.   But it seems evident that this statement as is applies to all marriages.  There will be no marriages performed in the resurrection.   It is something that is given in this life.  If it is performed as a mystery under apostolic authority, then we know that “whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18.18).  It is for this reason that St. Peter is able to speak of the husband and wife “as being heirs together of the grace of life” 1 Peter 3.7   If the two become one, and “heirs together” of the life of the Kingdom (as St. Peter says) and like the angels live without dying, then there can be no practice as there is now of marriage, death, marriage, death, marriage death.   

2.  They are not “like the angels” because they are unmarried, but rather in that they don’t die, as Luke’s account clarifies:  “and they can no longer die, for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.” (Luke 20.36).  In other words, “marry and given in marriage” refers to remarriage over and over again, as they proposed.   They can’t die, so there can be no repetitive “marrying and giving in marriage.”   Therefore Christ is saying the exact opposite of what some are taking from the passage.  The Sadducees were stating that marriage ended with death.  Christ is saying, no it doesn’t—for those of the resurrection do not die, just as the angels do not die. 


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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »

If the marriage bond is totally broken, why all the scriptural and patristic encouragement of widow(er)s not to remarriage, and the condemnation of remarriage with no reference to whether the former spouse is living?

Perhaps you could provide some scriptural and patristic words regarding marriage as an eternal bond?  Is it not enough that the Lord said:

Quote

Mathew 19:4-6

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

There is also:

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Ephesians 5:31-32

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Above it seems clear that the Lord intended in marriage for a husband and wife to become “one flesh”, commanding that “what God has joined together, let not man separate.”  Then, we see how marriage is intended to reflect the faithfulness of Christ towards his Church.  As you know, being married more than once is permitted in some cases in the Orthodox Church, but second marriages are carried out in a penitential manner because second marriages do  not properly reflect God’s will for two to become one flesh and for man to not separate that which God has joined together.  If you are advocating that people in heaven who are married on earth are considered married in heaven, and the Lord was simply saying that people do not get married when they are in heaven (which has nothing to do with the question he was asked), how would you respond to the question posed to the Lord about the woman who was married seven times?  If you believe in an “eternal bond of marriage”, please provide some scriptural and patristic support for this belief.

Despite the apparent contradiction to scripture (I Cor. 7:39), the canons and Fathers speak of remarriage of widow(ers) as polygamy. Indeed, the only remarriage allowed by all.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come.'" (Rev. 21:1-2; 22:17). Odd that it ends that way, no?

What is interesting in the Mark and related passages that the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd seem miss that the Apostles reject Christ's definition of marriage in that passage because it is too easy, but because it is too hard.  So much for marriage being "the easy" way.

The Apostles balked at the absolute requirement that a man have one wife without the ability to divorce her (except for very limited circumstances where this would be permissible).  This was and is a hard way when compared with the easy way of marrying and divorcing at will.

They copped out:"The disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." 11 But He said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given."

The disciples were not comparing marriage and dissoluble marriage (which is not marriage). They compared marriage with virginity.

But regarding marriage and virginity, see the following words of St. Athanasius the Great:

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St. Athanasius the Great, First Epistle to the monk Amun

For, there being two roads in life as regards these matters, the one a more moderate and helpful road conducive to life, that of marriage, I mean; the other one being angelic and unsurpassable, that of virginity; but if anyone should choose the mundane life, that is to say, the way of marriage, though he is not liable to censure or blame, he will not receive so many gracious gifts. For what he will receive when he bears fruit will be thirty. But if he embraces the chaste and supramundane life, though the road is rough in comparison with the first and difficult to achieve, yet it has more wonderful features in the way of gracious gifts: for it has produced the perfect fruit, the hundred.
You leave out a lot before this: immediately preceeding your quote:
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....But even now one might reasonably enough say that no natural excretion commends us to God for punishment. Even the children of physicians (to be ashamed of their externals) might counter to this that certain necessary passageways have been given to the animal for the purpose of enabling each of us to eliminate superfluous humors that accumulate in our members. Thus, for instance, the hairs of the head are superfluities, or excess baggage; and the aqueous ejections from the head, and the expulsions from the stomach, and above all the emissions of seminal passages. After all, what sort of things, for God, O most God-beloved old fellow, constitute the sinfulness when the Lord has created the animal such and has wanted to have it have such passages in its members’? But inasmuch as we have to anticipate the objections of the wicked ones (for one might say that even their true use is not a sin either if the organs have been formed by the Creator), for this purpose let us cease asking them questions. What use are you referring to? That in the Law which God allowed by saying: "Be fruitful, and multiply; and replenish the earth!" (Gen. 1:28), which the Apostle accepted when he said: "Marriage is honorable, and the bed un-defiled" (Heb. 13:4): or the popular kind, performed clandestinely and adulterously Since in other transactions in life too we shall find differences to occur in some way or another: for instance, it is not permissible to murder anyone (Exod. 20:13), yet in war it is praiseworthy and lawful to slay the adversaries. Thus at any rate those who have distinguished themselves in war are entitled to and are accorded great honors, and columns are erected in memory of them reciting their exploits. So that the same matter in some respect and at some time or other is not permitted, but in another respect and at some other time when there is a good occasion for it, may be allowed and permitted. The same argument holds also with regard to coition. Blessed is the man who in his youth having a free yoke employs his natural parts for the prudence of creating children. But if he employs them for licentious or lascivious purposes, he will receive the punishment prescribed by the Apostle for fornicators and adulterers (Heb. 13:4).  For, there being two roads in life as regards these matters....
Btw, just being single doesn't transform you into a monastic.

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

So God created man in His Own Image
    in the Image of God He created him
Male and female He created them.

Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.
And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it."
From the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."
                                                                                                                                 ----God, as dictated to Moses, as cited by God in the Flesh


Many other such passages are found in the Fathers.  Do you wish to ridicule them?
Only those who remove the landmarks which the Fathers have set (see below), and thereby burst their bonds and set themselves up for ridicule.

I am a married man with four children, and am exceedingly thankful for the marriage with which I have been blessed,
God bless you, you are blessed indeed it seems.

but I have no problem believing that monastic life is a greater calling.
Is an orange greater than an apple?

How can you read St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and come to a different conclusion?
Because I read his letter to the Ephesians, where he calles Marriage, not Tonsuring, a Holy Mystery.  In fact, Marriage is the only Holy Mystery named as such by the whole New Testament.

This humbles me but doesn’t infuriate me.  Why does it seem to infuriate others?

Zeal for the canons (see below).

What about the following?

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Matthew 19:12

"For… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”
The Church canonized that (Canon I of the First Ecumenical Council etc.) with penalties of deposition.

Do not these words from the Lord, and those of St. Paul to the Corinthians, clearly establish what is the higher or better way?  Now regarding virginity in marriage, one only has to read “Marriage as a Path to Holiness” to see many examples of saints who have chosen this way and been blessed by God
Besides the example you give, who else is given?

Was the example of St. Innocent, the Apostle to America, Enlightener of Alaska, and Metropolitan of Moscow, given?

St. John of Kronstadt is one more recent saint who was married and yet lived with his wife as “brother and sister”.

Btw, there was a practice of monks and nuns living as "brother and sister." It was stamped out by the Church authority.

If you want to consecrate your virginity, you do that with the tonsuring, not a wedding.

I'm glad you brought up the damnable propaganda of the "white marriage" created by the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd. Although there can be extenuating circumstances, and grace can work in spite of the recipient:

Someone who enters the baptismal font without any intention of living out his baptismal vows is damned. (such things are common with baptisms of convenience).

Someone who is chrismated who has no intention of walking according to the Spirit, is damned.

Someone who takes communion out of tradition, thinking he is tasting only bread and wine, is damned.

Someone who gains the pat on his head from the bishop by simony with the intent to gain and to be served and not to serve, is damned.

Someone who goes to confession out of "tradition" and says "I have nothing to confess" is damned, as so is the priest who gives such a person absoution.

Someone who comes to receive Holy Unction like he would a witch's herbal remedy, and puts it on the same level, is damned.

So what are we to make of a couple, or worse yet, one spouse, who go to receive the Church's blessing to "wed them into one flesh," when they have no intention of doing so?  Does the priest say all those prayers for children for his health?  Would you have no problem with the couple who has been living together and intend to not have children (perhaps even intent to abort if necessary), coming for a Church wedding?  Why should you?

Do not these words from the Lord "whom God has joined together let no man draw asunder" (and that includes the man who refuses to cleave), and those of St. Paul to the Corinthians "do not defraud each other" clearly establish what is the judgement of a man who enters marriage with the intent of not of a bridegroom but of a monk?

And then series of interesting canons of the Council of Gangra, confirmed by canon 2 of the Pentheke Council (5-6 Ecumenical Councils)
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1. If anyone disparages marriage, or abominates or disparages a woman sleeping with her husband, notwithstanding that she is faithful and reverent, as though she could not enter the Kingdom, let him be anathema.  (Ap. cc. V, LI; c. XIII of the 6th; cc. I, IV, IX, XIV of Gangra.)
Interpretation.
Just as the Manichees earlier, and other heretics, had traduced lawful marriage, so did the disciples of vile Eustathius later, concerning whom the divine Apostle said prophetically that "in the latter times some persons will depart from the faith, in the role of liars, of persons with a seared conscience, of persons forbidding marriage" (1 Tim. 4:1-3). For this reason the present Canon anathematizes such persons as disparage marriage and loathe a Christian and reverent wife as unclean who sleeps with her Christian husband, alleging that on account of this carnal mingling she cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. See also Ap. cc. V and LI.

4. If anyone discriminates against a married Presbyter, on the ground that he ought not to partake of the offering when that Presbyter is conducting the Liturgy, let him be anathema. (Ap. c. V; cc. XIII, XLVIII of the 6th; cc. IV, XXXIII of Carthage.)
Interpretation.
The present Canon anathematizes the Eustathians and all the rest who discriminate and are inclined to fight shy of partaking of the divine Mysteries from a married priest, on the allegation that such a priest ought not to officiate at Liturgy on account of his marriage. Read also Ap. c. V.

9. If anyone should remain a virgin or observe continence as if, abominating marriage, he had become an anchorite, and not for the good standard and holy feature of virginity, let him be anathema. (Ap. cc. V and LI.)
Interpretation.
Virginity and sobriety (or chastity) are a good thing, true enough, but only when they are practiced for the sake of the good itself and for the sanctification resulting from them. If, however, anyone remains a virgin or keeps sober (i.e., stays chaste), not for this reason, but because he abhors marriage as being unclean and tainted, as did the Eustathians, he is anathematized by the present Canon. See also Ap. cc. V and LI.

10. If anyone leading a life of virginity for the Lord should regard married persons superciliously, let him be anathema.
Interpretation.
This Canon too anathematizes those who remain virgins for love of the Lord, but who maintain a proud attitude as regards those who are united in lawful marriage, as did the Eustathians. See also Ap. cc. V and LI.

11. If anyone should scorn those who hold love-feasts (or agapae) in good faith, and who invite their brethren to ‘join them for honor of the Lord, and should refuse to respond to the invitations, for the sake of vilifying the affair, let him be anathema. (c. LXXIV of the 6th; c. XXVII of Laodicea; c. XLIX of Carthage.)
Interpretation.
The Christians of that time were accustomed, after partaking of the divine Mysteries, to hold so-called agapae, or love-feasts, i.e., banquets for brotherly love and for the honor of the Lord to invite the poor brethren to a free dinner. Hence the present Canon anathematizes those who refuse to attend such banquets ("affairs," that is to say, held, not with an improper propensity, but for the honor and faith of the Lord, and for love cherished for poor brethren. And not inside of the church, for this was prohibited; but outside of the church), but proudly disparage them and try to vilify them, as did the Eustathians, it would appear. Read also c. LXXIV of the 6th.

12. If any of the menfolk uses a wrapper for the sake of supposedly ascetic exercise, and as if endowed with righteousness by this he should regard disdainfully those men who are wearing robes called beri and using the common dress which is in vogue, let him be anathema. (c. XXVII of the 6th; c. XVII of the 7th; c. XXI of Gangra.)
Interpretation.
The Eustathians used to teach their disciples among other things to wear ragged and poor overcoats, not for the sake of truly ascetic exercise, but for pretended sake of asceticism, in order that by feigning to be holy and righteous men, they might be glorified by the masses, and disparage those who with reverence and fear of God (not, that is to say, to be proud of these things in the face of those who lacked them, nor for the sake of carnal love, or for the sake of stultification and adornment of the human body) are wearing robes, or, more explicitly speaking, silk garments, and using those clothes which are common and usual to all men. For this reason the present Canon anathematizes those men and their like on the ground that they are exalting themselves above their brethren. See also c. XXVII of the 6th.

13. If for the sake of supposedly ascetic exercise any woman change apparel, and instead of the usual and customary women’s apparel, she dons men’s apparel, let her be anathema. (c. LXII of the 6th.)
Interpretation.
Many women taught by the Eustathians used to doff clothing appropriate and suitable for women, and to don men’s clothing, on the presumption that this would enable them to become justified and to become sainted. For this reason the present Canon anathematizes women who do this for the sake of supposed and pretended ascetic exercise, and not for the sake of true and veritable ascetic exercise. See c. LXII of the 6th.

14. If any woman should abandon her husband and wish to depart, because she abominates marriage, let her be anathema. (Ap. cc. V, LI; c. XIII of the 6th; c. XX of Gangra.)
Interpretation.
This too was a doctrine of the Eustathians, the idea, that is to say, that women might leave their husbands, and conversely that men might leave their wives, and depart, on the ground that they had an abhorrence of marriage. Hence the present Canon condemned those who do this to the anathema. See also Ap. cc. V and LI.

15. If anyone should abandon his own children, or fail to devote himself to feeding his children, and fail, as far as depends on them, to bring them up to be godly and to have respect for God, but, under the pretext of ascetic exercise, should neglect them, let him be anathema.(c. XLII of Carthage.)
Interpretation.
If it is true that irrational animals, including even wild beasts and lions, take care of their cubs and their children, how much more ought rational human beings to nurture them! That is why divine Paul says in one place, "But if anyone provide not for his own dependents, and especially for those of his own household, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim. 5:8 ), and in another place, "Ye fathers, bring up your children in the education and admonition of the Lord" (Eph. 6:4). And again with reference to the widow he asks whether she has brought up children and fed them, and with reference to elderly and old women he says for them to educate the young women to love their husbands and their children (Titus 2:4). But the heretic Eustathius and those who sided with him, not listening to these Apostolic commandments, used to teach parents to abandon their children and go in for asceticism. Hence the present Canon anathematizes those parents who desert their children and fail to feed them, and who teach them neither godliness and respect for God nor virtue. Canon XLII of Carthage, on the other hand, decrees that no cleric shall emancipate his children (i.e., allow them to act as their own masters) before they are convinced that this way or that way of theirs is a good one, and their age can discern what ought to be done. See also the Footnote to c. VI of the lst-&-2nd.

16. If any children of parents, especially of faithful ones, should depart, on the pretext of godliness, and should fail to pay due honor to their parents, godliness, that is to say, being preferred with them, i.e., among them, let them be anathema.
Interpretation.
Not only are parents obliged to look after their children, but children too have an obligation to look after their parents, to whom they ought to pay due honor. But taking care of the aged is also a kind of honor, and so is feeding those ill on account of old age and in want. In saying "especially of faithful ones," the present Canon means that children ought not to depart from their parents even when the latter are infidels or heretics if they are not trying to incite them to unbelief or heresy. For this reason it also anathematizes those children who leave their parents unprovided for, and fail to honor them or to take care of them in old age on the pretext of godliness and virtue. If parents, however, who are infidels or heretics incite their children to unbelief and heresy, or, even though they are believers they nevertheless are preventing them or prohibiting them from living according to Christ and from being virtuous, and are inciting them to acts that are harmful to the soul and improper, then and in that case children ought to prefer godliness and virtue to carnal parents, which amounts to saying that they ought to leave them without hating them, and take their departure. See also the Footnote to c. VI of the lst-&-2nd, and c. XX of the 6th.

17. If any woman for the sake of supposedly ascetic exercise cuts off her hair, which God gave her to remind her of the fact that she is subject to the will of her husband, let her be anathema, on the ground that she has disobeyed the injunction to be obedient.
Interpretation.
In writing to the Corinthians St. Paul says: "The head of the wife is the husband" (1 Cor. 11:3) — because Eve was taken out of Adam, and he became the cause of her becoming a woman). And further below he goes on to say that if a woman does not cover her head, let her cut off her hair. But if it is shameful for a woman to cut off her hair or to shave herself, why, then let her cover her head. (Ibid. 11:6). And again: "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory and an honor to her" (paraphrasing ibid. 11:15). But Eustathius and his disciples used to teach women to cut off their hair on the alleged ground that they would thus be doing something godly and virtuous; the dolts failing to understand that this doctrine of theirs is opposed even to nature herself, seeing that she has never produced a woman that was bald-headed and without hair, as she has some men. For this reason the present Canon anathematizes any woman who cuts off her hair for the sake of appearing and feigning to be engaged in ascetic exercise, which hair God gave her to remind her of the fact that she is under the rulership and subject to the will of her husband, since by so doing she is disregarding and transgressing the commandment, or injunction, to be submissive. And the Fathers took this from St. Paul, who says that a wife must have an authority upon her head, or, more explicitly speaking, a sign of her husband’s authority, and of her subjection to her husband, which is the natural cover of hair, and the external cover of headkerchiefs.

The same Pentheke/Quinsext Council which ratified Gangra, issued this canon:
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13. Since we have learned that in the church of the Romans it is regarded as tantamount to a canon that ordinands to the deaconry or presbytery must solemnly promise to have no further intercourse with their wives. Continuing, however, in conformity with the ancient canon of apostolic rigorism and orderliness, we desire that henceforward the lawful marriage ties of sacred men become stronger, and we are nowise dissolving their intercourse with their wives, nor depriving them of their mutual relationship and companionship when properly maintained in due season, so that if anyone is found to be worthy to be ordained a Subdeacon, or a Deacon, or a Presbyter, let him nowise be prevented from being elevated to such a rank while cohabiting with a lawful wife. Nor must he be required at the time of ordination to refrain from lawful intercourse with his own wife, lest we be forced to be downright scornful of marriage, which was instituted by God and blessed by His presence, as attested by the unequivocal declaration of the Gospel utterance: "What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder" (Matt. 19:6); and the Apostle’s teaching: "Marriage is honorable, and the bed is undefiled" (Heb. 13:4), and: "Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be freed" (1 Cor. 7:27). We are cognizant, though, that those who met in Carthage and made provision of decency in the life of ministers declared that Subdeacons and Deacons and Presbyters, busying themselves as they do with the sacred mysteries, according to their rules are obliged to practice temperance in connection with their helpmates, in order that we may likewise keep the injunction handed down through the Apostles, and continued from ancient times in force, well knowing that there is a proper season for everything, and especially for fasting and praying. For those who assist in the ceremonies at the sacrificial altar have to be temperate in all things at the time when they are handling holy things, so that they may be able to gain whatever they ask God for. If, therefore, anyone acting contrary to the Apostolic Canons require any person who is in sacred orders — any Presbyter, we mean, or Deacon, or Subdeacon — to abstain from intercourse and association with his lawful wife, let him be deposed from office. Likewise, if any Presbyter or Deacon expel his own wife on the pretext of reverence, let him be excommunicated; and if he persist, let him be deposed from office.
Interpretation.
What the present Canon decrees is this. Since we have learned that in Rome it is kept as inviolable canon that those who are about to become deacons and presbyters must promise and agree at the time of ordination that after the ordination they will have intercourse with their wives no more, we, following the old Canon of the Holy Apostles, Ap. c. V, that is to say, desire and hereby decree the marriage ties of those in holy orders to remain solid and inseverable, without requiring their separation after ordination from intercourse with their own wives when held at the proper time — when, that is to say, there is no fast, and when they are not engaged in celebrating the divine and sacred mysteries. So that whoever is married with a lawful wife and is worthy to become a Subdeacon, Deacon, or Presbyter, let him become one; and let him not be obliged necessarily to promise that he will separate from his wife — lest as a result of this we be forced to dishonor marriage, sanctioned by the laws laid down by God, and blessed by His presence, at the wedding in Cana, that is to say. For even the Lord’s utterance in the Gospel says unequivocally: Let no man sunder those who have been united by God; and the Apostle teaches that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed is undefiled; and again, if you have been tied up with a wife, do not try to separate from her. But just as the Fathers of the Council held in Carthage, in providing for the decency of those in holy orders, decreed that subdeacons, deacons, and presbyters who come in contact with the divine mysteries must practice temperance by abstaining from their helpmates (or consorts), in accordance with their own rules (or definitions) in accordance with c. XXXIII, in order that we may keep likewise ourselves the tradition handed down through the Apostles from antiquity, in accordance with c. III of the same Council (that is to say, both the written traditions and the unwritten traditions, according to Zonaras and Balsamon), so and in like manner do we, who say the same things as these Fathers, decree that the above three ranks of those in holy orders must temperately abstain from their wives in time of fasting and of praying, in accordance with the words of St. Paul. For those who presiding at the sacrificial altar ought to be temperately abstinent from everything at the time they are engaged in the celebration of sacred rites, in order that by means of this abstinence they may obtain from God that which they seeking in general, or indiscriminately, that is to say, according to Zonaras, or for the common interest of the laity (according to c. III, that is to say, of the same Carthaginian Council). So whoever dares, in disregard of the Apostolic Canons, to prevent subdeacons, deacons, and presbyters from lawfully mingling with their wives, let him be deposed from office. It ingeminates word for word Ap. c. V, the Interpretation of which you may read for yourself
As we see:
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5. No Bishop, Presbyter, or Deacon shall put away his own wife under pretext of reverence. If, however, he put her away, let him be excommunicated," and if he persist in so doing, let him be deposed from office.
(Canons XIII, XLVIII of 6th; c. IV of Gangra; cc. IV, XXXIII of Carth.).
Interpretation.
The old Law permitted married men to divorce their wives whenever they wanted and without any reasonable occasion. The Lord, however, sternly forbade this in the Gospel. Hence it is that the Apostles, too, following the Lord’s injunction, prohibit this in the present Canon, and say that a bishop, or a presbyter, or a deacon may not put away, i.e., forcibly divorce, his wife — without her consent, that is to say — under pretext or pretense of reverence; but if he should nevertheless divorce her, that he is to be excommunicated, until such time as he can be persuaded to take her back into his home. But if he persist in his obstinacy and will not receive her, he is to be deposed from office altogether, since it is apparent from this which he does that he dishonors marriage, which, according to the Apostle, is honorable (Heb. 13:4), and that he thinks bed and intercourse to be impure, which, however, is called undefiled by the same Apostle (ibid.). I need not state that adultery will operate as cause for divorce in this case, as the Lord said: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, save for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery" (Matt. 5:32). The Apostle, too, has said: "Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be freed" (I Cor. 7:27); and "Deprive ye not one of the other, unless it be by mutual agreement for a time, in order to have leisure for fasting and prayer" (ibid. 5).
Concord.
Thus also the Sixth in its c. XIII ordains that marriages of those in holy orders are to remain unalterable and divorceless; and that if they were married even before admission to holy orders, they are not to be prevented from admission by reason of marriage; nor, when ordained, are they obliged to agree that as soon as they have become priests they will divorce their wives, as was an illegal custom which had come to prevail in Rome. Even if cc. IV and XXXIII of Carthage say for bishops and presbyters and deacons and subdeacons to keep sober and to abstain from their wives according to the same definitions, but the interpreters of the Canons — Zonaras, I mean, and Balsamon, and especially the Sixth in its c. XIII, in interpreting the foregoing Canons — say for them to abstain during the times only of their curacy, and not at all times, with the exception of bishops: and see there.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/cannons_apostles_rudder.htm

If we aren’t able to do that, or simply don’t want to, we should be humble about this and not try to condemn those who can, simply because we are offended by our weaknesses.
The canons are quite clear: not only are we NOT to be humbled about this, but those who are offended and condemn us as "simply don't want to" and try to humble us should be DEPOSED and EXCOMMUNICATED.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 05:02:12 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2011, 05:04:13 PM »

Many older married couples live as brother and sister in sanctity offering up their chastity to the Lord.
That is a different matter entirely, and not entirely unproblematic.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2011, 05:08:06 PM »

Jah - the only thing i would add is that i think it is true that the marriage bond is eternal. our marriage service has no "till death do us part." i have been taught that the marriage crowns are together on the heavenly altar. although there will obviously not be sexual relations in Heaven, the bond remains i think - ideally that relationship is part of what got you to Heaven in the first place!

What about divorced/remarried couples? I don't think there is a marriage bond in heaven."29But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30)

EDIT: Pardon me, didn't read the above posts.
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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2011, 05:14:33 PM »

Jah - the only thing i would add is that i think it is true that the marriage bond is eternal. our marriage service has no "till death do us part." i have been taught that the marriage crowns are together on the heavenly altar. although there will obviously not be sexual relations in Heaven, the bond remains i think - ideally that relationship is part of what got you to Heaven in the first place!

What about divorced/remarried couples? I don't think there is a marriage bond in heaven."29But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30)
LOL. Yes, I'm in a quandry-do I have to remarry to rid of my ex-wife? I have a vested interest in there being no marriage in heaven....
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« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2011, 05:26:38 PM »

Jah - the only thing i would add is that i think it is true that the marriage bond is eternal. our marriage service has no "till death do us part." i have been taught that the marriage crowns are together on the heavenly altar. although there will obviously not be sexual relations in Heaven, the bond remains i think - ideally that relationship is part of what got you to Heaven in the first place!

What about divorced/remarried couples? I don't think there is a marriage bond in heaven."29But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30)
LOL. Yes, I'm in a quandry-do I have to remarry to rid of my ex-wife? I have a vested interest in there being no marriage in heaven....

Haha  laugh  My younger brother always says its going to be awkward meeting up with family in heaven with my mom and dad and their new spouses all together.
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2011, 01:37:44 AM »

You leave out a lot before this: immediately preceeding your quote:
Quote
....But even now one might reasonably enough say that no natural excretion commends us to God for punishment….

I did not quote this portion of the letter from St. Athanasius because I did not find them relevant to the two subjects I was attempting to focus on, the question of an eternal bond of marriage in the light of the Lord’s words concerning the hypothetical woman who was married seven times on this earth, and the subject of the superiority of the virginal life over the married life as St. Paul emphasizes in 1 Corinthians.  The words I quoted showed St. Athanasius affirmation of the superiority of the virginal life.  The words you quoted, while not directly pertaining to these two subjects, showed that while St. Athanasius considered the virginal life to be higher, he nevertheless did not despise marriage as detestable or sinful, but rather affirmed marriage as honorable, giving the married state its due praise and its proper position after the virginal life in order of superiority.

Btw, just being single doesn't transform you into a monastic.

Obviously.  When the virginal life is advocated, this is not spoken of by the Fathers as simply a life free from physical union with another person, or a life free from marriage, but a true virgin is one who is pure in both body and soul.  The Fathers speak of this constantly.  It is the ideal of virginity, and not the sole fact of physical virginity, that is advocated, just as when St. Paul advocates virginity to the Corinthians he speaks thus:

Quote
I Cor 7:32-33

But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord. But he who is married cares about the things of the world--how he may please his wife.

In other words, it is not the unmarried state alone that is praised above marriage, but the virginal and unmarried state enables one to be without earthly cares and focus on eternal and heavenly matters, giving thought only to pleasing God and not man.  We should all strive to be without cares and to please God in everything, so that we can take part, even while married, in the blessed state described by St. Paul.


Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness; ….

How does all of the text you are quoting pertain to the issues at hand?  It is not clear what you are attempting to convey regarding the state of marriage versus the state of virginity, or the concept of an eternal bond of marriage, by these quotes. 

Many other such passages are found in the Fathers.  Do you wish to ridicule them?
Only those who remove the landmarks which the Fathers have set (see below), and thereby burst their bonds and set themselves up for ridicule.

Please point out passages from the Fathers that you claim remove the landmarks which the Fathers have set.  Is this not a contradictory assertion?

but I have no problem believing that monastic life is a greater calling.
Is an orange greater than an apple?

The Scriptures and the Fathers clearly state that the monastic, virginal, and angelic state is superior to that of marriage.  We are not talking about apples and oranges, but a God revealed hierarchy of honor.

How can you read St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and come to a different conclusion?
Because I read his letter to the Ephesians, where he calles Marriage, not Tonsuring, a Holy Mystery.  In fact, Marriage is the only Holy Mystery named as such by the whole New Testament.

Does St. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians clearly state that the virginal life in the full meaning of the word is not higher than the married state?  Is the monastic ideal not an embodiment of the ideal St. Paul describes in his description of virginal or unmarried life?

This humbles me but doesn’t infuriate me.  Why does it seem to infuriate others?

Zeal for the canons (see below).

I’m afraid you are not interpreting or applying the canons correctly.  Zeal is good if properly applied and virtuously directed.  Zeal is also good if it is fed with proper understanding.  Zeal without understanding is dangerous.

What about the following?

Quote
Matthew 19:12

"For… there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”
The Church canonized that (Canon I of the First Ecumenical Council etc.) with penalties of deposition.
[/quote]

The Lord is not here advocating bodily mutilation which the canons forbid.  Read St. John Chrysostom’s commentary on these versus and you will see that he

Quote
St. John Chrysostom, Homily LXII
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LIX.html

For as there, when the Jews had been put to silence the disciples were troubled, and came unto Him with Peter and said, “Declare unto us this parable;” even so now also they were troubled and said, “If the case of the man be so, it is good not to marry.”

For now they understood the saying more than before. Therefore then indeed they held their peace, but now when there hath been gainsaying, and answering, and question, and learning by reply, and the law appeared more clear, they ask Him. And openly to contradict they do not dare, but they bring forward what seemed to be a grievous and galling result of it, saying, “If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.” For indeed it seemed to be a very hard thing to have a wife full of every bad quality, and to endure a wild beast perpetually shut up with one in the house. [/u] And that thou mayest learn that this greatly troubled them, Mark said, to show it, that they spake to Him privately.

3. But what is, “If such be the case of a man with his wife?” That is, if to this end he is joined with her, that they should be one, or, on the other hand, if the man shall get to himself blame for these things, and always transgresses by putting away, it were easier to fight against natural desire and against one’s self, than against a wicked woman.

What then saith Christ? He said not, “yea, it is easier, and so do,” lest they should suppose that the thing is a law; but He subjoined, “Not all men receive it, but they to whom it is given,” raising the thing, and showing that it is great, and in this way drawing them on, and urging them.

But see herein a contradiction. For He indeed saith this is a great thing; but they, that it is easier. For it was meet that both these things should be done, and that it should be at once acknowledged a great thing by Him, that it might render them more forward, and by the things said by themselves it should be shown to be easier, that on this ground too they might the rather choose virginity and continence. For since to speak of virginity seemed to be grievous, by the constraint of this law He drove them to this desire. Then to show the possibility of it, He saith, “There are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother’s womb, there are some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men, and there be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven’s sake,” by these words secretly leading them to choose the thing, and establishing the possibility of this virtue, and all but saying, Consider if thou wert in such case by nature, or hadst endured this selfsame thing at the hands of those who inflict such wanton injuries, what wouldest thou have done, being deprived indeed of the enjoyment, yet not having a reward? Thank God therefore now, for that with rewards and crowns thou undergoest this, which those men endure without crowns; or rather not even this, but what is much lighter, being supported both by hope, and by the consciousness of the good work, and not having the desire so raging like waves within thee.

For the excision of a member is not able to quell such waves, and to make a calm, like the curb of reason; or rather, reason only can do this.

For this intent therefore He brought in those others, even that He might encourage these, since if this was not what He was establishing, what means His saying concerning the other eunuchs? But when He saith, that they made themselves eunuchs, He means not the excision of the members, far from it, but the putting away of wicked thoughts. Since the man who hath mutilated himself, in fact, is subject even to a curse, as Paul saith, “I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” And very reasonably. For such a one is venturing on the deeds of murderers[/u]  , and giving occasion to them that slander God’s creation, and opens the mouths of the Manichæans, and is guilty of the same unlawful acts as they that mutilate themselves amongst the Greeks. For to cut off our members hath been from the beginning a work of demoniacal agency, and satanic device, that they may bring up a bad report upon the work of God, that they may mar this living creature, that imputing all not to the choice, but to the nature of our members, the more part of them may sin in security, as being irresponsible; and doubly harm this living creature, both by mutilating the members, and by impeding the forwardness of the free choice in behalf of good deeds.

These are the ordinances of the devil…

  Having spoken then of the eunuchs that are eunuchs for nought and fruitlessly, unless with the mind they too practise temperance, and of those that are virgins for Heaven’s sake, He proceeds again to say, “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it,” at once making them more earnest by showing that the good work is exceeding in greatness, and not suffering the thing to be shut up in the compulsion of a law, because of His unspeakable gentleness. And this He said, when He showed it to be most possible, in order that the emulation of the free choice might be greater. [/u] 

Do not these words from the Lord, and those of St. Paul to the Corinthians, clearly establish what is the higher or better way?  Now regarding virginity in marriage, one only has to read “Marriage as a Path to Holiness” to see many examples of saints who have chosen this way and been blessed by God

Besides the example you give, who else is given?

Was the example of St. Innocent, the Apostle to America, Enlightener of Alaska, and Metropolitan of Moscow, given?

I don’t have the book with me, but if you open the Synaxarion, Synaxaristes, or Prologue, you will find numerous examples of those who were married, often because of family pressure, but agreed amongst themselves to live as brother and sister.  Most recently on the Old Calendar, we read the life of the Holy Martyrs Chrysanthus and Daria (March 19).  The Prologue describes how Chrysanthus was coerced by his father to marry a pagan girl named Daria, and Chrysanthus “counseled Daria to embrace the Christian Faith and to live together with him as brother and sister, although pretending to be married.”  This is very common in the lives of the saints.

St. John of Kronstadt is one more recent saint who was married and yet lived with his wife as “brother and sister”.

Btw, there was a practice of monks and nuns living as "brother and sister." It was stamped out by the Church authority.

If you want to consecrate your virginity, you do that with the tonsuring, not a wedding.

We are not talking about monks and nuns living as “brother and sister”, but of married couples living as such.  Often the decision to live as “brother and sister” has been made by those who wished to live as monastics but who were heavily pressured by family members to marry, or perhaps after some years of marriage such a decision is taken after the children are grown up or after the couple has had a number of children.


I'm glad you brought up the damnable propaganda of the "white marriage" created by the why-soil-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels crowd. Although there can be extenuating circumstances, and grace can work in spite of the recipient:

I didn’t.  Why are you introducing these topics and canons in response to my message which had nothing to do with the subjects covered in these texts?  Why are you inventing scenarios that have little relevance to the discussion?

Someone who enters the baptismal font without any intention of living out his baptismal vows is damned….

What’s with the litany of condemnations?  For someone who claims to have “zeal for the canons” it is shocking how you disregard them in favor of your own condemnation formulas.  What does your discussion of damnation have to do with this subject?

So what are we to make of a couple, or worse yet, one spouse, who go to receive the Church's blessing to "wed them into one flesh," when they have no intention of doing so?  Does the priest say all those prayers for children for his health?  Would you have no problem with the couple who has been living together and intend to not have children (perhaps even intent to abort if necessary), coming for a Church wedding?  Why should you?

You obviously have a problem with married people living as brother and sister for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.  God has no such problem, but rather he has richly blessed and glorified many saints who have chosen such a life voluntarily.


And then series of interesting canons of the Council of Gangra, confirmed by canon 2 of the Pentheke Council (5-6 Ecumenical Councils)

Quote
1. If anyone disparages marriage, or abominates or disparages a woman sleeping with her husband, notwithstanding that she is faithful and reverent, as though she could not enter the Kingdom, let him be anathema.  (Ap. cc. V, LI; c. XIII of the 6th; cc. I, IV, IX, XIV of Gangra.)

The voluntary decision to live as virgins, even within marriage, has nothing to do with the disparaging of marriage, something which is condemned in the canons and which St. Paul refers to as a “doctrine of demons”.  Monks, in forsaking marriage and in esteeming virginity as a greater state, do not therefore consider marriage inherently sinful and detestable just by virtue of its inferiority.  Again, these canons are not applicable because they deal with the detesting of marriage as a sinful or unclean state, not with the superiority of virginity or monasticism over the married state.   

If we aren’t able to do that, or simply don’t want to, we should be humble about this and not try to condemn those who can, simply because we are offended by our weaknesses.
The canons are quite clear: not only are we NOT to be humbled about this, but those who are offended and condemn us as "simply don't want to" and try to humble us should be DEPOSED and EXCOMMUNICATED.

I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.
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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2011, 01:47:59 PM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.
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« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2011, 02:08:50 PM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.

First off, living as brother and sister because the woman has no desire and the man has erectile dysfunction is not a virtue, it is a matter of nature.  And this has been the case of EVERY old couple that I have known that lived together as "brother and sister" (and how do I know, because they told me.  Elders in the Lutheran Church often make calls upon old people and shut-ins when the Pastor cannot).

Second (jah777) - I read the same canons that ialmisry read, and I read them the same way.  There is no reason for a healthy and functioning male and female to marry (at least these days) and not engage in marital relations.  To do so would be done out of distaste for the marital union.  In the case of the unhealthy (those that cannot perform due to sickness or injury), there is no sin in remaining married but as brother and sister.  Yes, if after the child bearing years, both parties wished to remain together without sexual relations, it would fall under the "voluntary" provisions of Paul's letter.  However, I have served Churches for more than 30 years, and have been in positions to where people tell me things that they do not tell others (sometimes even their pastors), and I know of NO case where this was a voluntary arrangement.  There were Saintly woman who lived with their husbands erectile dysfunction, and there were Saintly men who remained true to their wives when they went through illness and other "woman's issues" that rendered them unable to have sex comfortably, or even safely.  But I have yet to see a couple that was able that with full desire by BOTH parties did not maintain some kind of sexual relationship, even if infrequently.  If, indeed, they exist, they are rare and by no means the norm.  Again, you are making a false argument because you cannot defend your own position.  Ialmisry read the canons correctly, and commented on them correctly.  Of course they do not forbid the VOLUNTARY abstinence of both parties, but nobody said that they did.  If anything, they speak directly against those that maintain that such a relationship should be normal, or even praiseworthy.   
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2011, 02:18:14 PM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.

First off, living as brother and sister because the woman has no desire and the man has erectile dysfunction is not a virtue, it is a matter of nature.  And this has been the case of EVERY old couple that I have known that lived together as "brother and sister" (and how do I know, because they told me.  Elders in the Lutheran Church often make calls upon old people and shut-ins when the Pastor cannot).

Second (jah777) - I read the same canons that ialmisry read, and I read them the same way.  There is no reason for a healthy and functioning male and female to marry (at least these days) and not engage in marital relations.  To do so would be done out of distaste for the marital union.  In the case of the unhealthy (those that cannot perform due to sickness or injury), there is no sin in remaining married but as brother and sister.  Yes, if after the child bearing years, both parties wished to remain together without sexual relations, it would fall under the "voluntary" provisions of Paul's letter.  However, I have served Churches for more than 30 years, and have been in positions to where people tell me things that they do not tell others (sometimes even their pastors), and I know of NO case where this was a voluntary arrangement.  There were Saintly woman who lived with their husbands erectile dysfunction, and there were Saintly men who remained true to their wives when they went through illness and other "woman's issues" that rendered them unable to have sex comfortably, or even safely.  But I have yet to see a couple that was able that with full desire by BOTH parties did not maintain some kind of sexual relationship, even if infrequently.  If, indeed, they exist, they are rare and by no means the norm.  Again, you are making a false argument because you cannot defend your own position.  Ialmisry read the canons correctly, and commented on them correctly.  Of course they do not forbid the VOLUNTARY abstinence of both parties, but nobody said that they did.  If anything, they speak directly against those that maintain that such a relationship should be normal, or even praiseworthy.    

And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.
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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.

First off, living as brother and sister because the woman has no desire and the man has erectile dysfunction is not a virtue, it is a matter of nature.  And this has been the case of EVERY old couple that I have known that lived together as "brother and sister" (and how do I know, because they told me.  Elders in the Lutheran Church often make calls upon old people and shut-ins when the Pastor cannot).

Second (jah777) - I read the same canons that ialmisry read, and I read them the same way.  There is no reason for a healthy and functioning male and female to marry (at least these days) and not engage in marital relations.  To do so would be done out of distaste for the marital union.  In the case of the unhealthy (those that cannot perform due to sickness or injury), there is no sin in remaining married but as brother and sister.  Yes, if after the child bearing years, both parties wished to remain together without sexual relations, it would fall under the "voluntary" provisions of Paul's letter.  However, I have served Churches for more than 30 years, and have been in positions to where people tell me things that they do not tell others (sometimes even their pastors), and I know of NO case where this was a voluntary arrangement.  There were Saintly woman who lived with their husbands erectile dysfunction, and there were Saintly men who remained true to their wives when they went through illness and other "woman's issues" that rendered them unable to have sex comfortably, or even safely.  But I have yet to see a couple that was able that with full desire by BOTH parties did not maintain some kind of sexual relationship, even if infrequently.  If, indeed, they exist, they are rare and by no means the norm.  Again, you are making a false argument because you cannot defend your own position.  Ialmisry read the canons correctly, and commented on them correctly.  Of course they do not forbid the VOLUNTARY abstinence of both parties, but nobody said that they did.  If anything, they speak directly against those that maintain that such a relationship should be normal, or even praiseworthy.    

And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Meaing what, as Punch hasn't said anything that indicates he shuts his eyes to goodness in people?

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To the pure, all things are pure.  To the impure, nothing is pure.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.
Such as?
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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2011, 02:42:46 PM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.

First off, living as brother and sister because the woman has no desire and the man has erectile dysfunction is not a virtue, it is a matter of nature.  And this has been the case of EVERY old couple that I have known that lived together as "brother and sister" (and how do I know, because they told me.  Elders in the Lutheran Church often make calls upon old people and shut-ins when the Pastor cannot).

Second (jah777) - I read the same canons that ialmisry read, and I read them the same way.  There is no reason for a healthy and functioning male and female to marry (at least these days) and not engage in marital relations.  To do so would be done out of distaste for the marital union.  In the case of the unhealthy (those that cannot perform due to sickness or injury), there is no sin in remaining married but as brother and sister.  Yes, if after the child bearing years, both parties wished to remain together without sexual relations, it would fall under the "voluntary" provisions of Paul's letter.  However, I have served Churches for more than 30 years, and have been in positions to where people tell me things that they do not tell others (sometimes even their pastors), and I know of NO case where this was a voluntary arrangement.  There were Saintly woman who lived with their husbands erectile dysfunction, and there were Saintly men who remained true to their wives when they went through illness and other "woman's issues" that rendered them unable to have sex comfortably, or even safely.  But I have yet to see a couple that was able that with full desire by BOTH parties did not maintain some kind of sexual relationship, even if infrequently.  If, indeed, they exist, they are rare and by no means the norm.  Again, you are making a false argument because you cannot defend your own position.  Ialmisry read the canons correctly, and commented on them correctly.  Of course they do not forbid the VOLUNTARY abstinence of both parties, but nobody said that they did.  If anything, they speak directly against those that maintain that such a relationship should be normal, or even praiseworthy.    

And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.
As in "help me to see my own faults and not to judge my brother"? Yes, this is a bit of a judgment, but I do this only to point out how your words can be read as a judgment of your brother.
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« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2011, 07:01:18 PM »


And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.

Who says that two old geezers banging like bunnies isn't godly?  Certainly not me!  I am one of the "if you are married, do it" crowd.  Your response to my post would seem to indicate that you are one of those the canons are speaking to, at least if you really believe that sex between two married seniors is somehow ungodly.  BTW - the Prayer of St. Ephraim is my favorite.  What is your point, or have you lost it judging me?
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2011, 08:04:23 PM »

Who says that two old geezers banging like bunnies isn't godly?  Certainly not me!  I am one of the "if you are married, do it" crowd.  Your response to my post would seem to indicate that you are one of those the canons are speaking to, at least if you really believe that sex between two married seniors is somehow ungodly.  BTW - the Prayer of St. Ephraim is my favorite.  What is your point, or have you lost it judging me?

"There's nothing more unattractive than a frisky old person. Believe me I know, I've see Cocoon." 
- Mother, Absolutely Fabulous.
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« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2011, 09:52:11 PM »


"There's nothing more unattractive than a frisky old person. Believe me I know, I've see Cocoon." 
- Mother, Absolutely Fabulous.

That program is coming back on TV.  It will give me something else to watch other than RuPaul's Drag Races.
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2011, 02:11:53 AM »


I’m afraid you are very confused about what the canons say about this matter.  Did you read them before you pasted such a large mass of text?  Read them again and you will see that the canons do not at all forbid a husband and wife to agree between themselves to live a virginal life within the married state.  Nor do the canons have anything to do with the rightfulness of declaring virginity to be of greater value than marriage.  They also do not refer to an “eternal bond” of marriage (why haven’t you touched on this subject?).  They do condemn those who abandon their spouse for the sake of piety, or who choose a virginal life because they consider marriage detestable and inherently sinful, but again, this is not relevant to the subject at hand.


Indeed, virtue lies in the middle. While the Monastic life can be an angelic life if one truly strives for theosis, the Marriage state is a Holy Mystery that leads to salvation IF one truly loves their spouse for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I know many couples in old age who are living with their spouse in a semi-monastic life, practicing chastity, praying together, and doing works of charity. There are many saintly married couples if one has the eyes to see. I am amazed whenever I attend funerals at the eulogy that the priest gives revealing things that he would never reveal before someone's death. We truly do have saints among us.

First off, living as brother and sister because the woman has no desire and the man has erectile dysfunction is not a virtue, it is a matter of nature.  And this has been the case of EVERY old couple that I have known that lived together as "brother and sister" (and how do I know, because they told me.  Elders in the Lutheran Church often make calls upon old people and shut-ins when the Pastor cannot).

Second (jah777) - I read the same canons that ialmisry read, and I read them the same way.  There is no reason for a healthy and functioning male and female to marry (at least these days) and not engage in marital relations.  To do so would be done out of distaste for the marital union.  In the case of the unhealthy (those that cannot perform due to sickness or injury), there is no sin in remaining married but as brother and sister.  Yes, if after the child bearing years, both parties wished to remain together without sexual relations, it would fall under the "voluntary" provisions of Paul's letter.  However, I have served Churches for more than 30 years, and have been in positions to where people tell me things that they do not tell others (sometimes even their pastors), and I know of NO case where this was a voluntary arrangement.  There were Saintly woman who lived with their husbands erectile dysfunction, and there were Saintly men who remained true to their wives when they went through illness and other "woman's issues" that rendered them unable to have sex comfortably, or even safely.  But I have yet to see a couple that was able that with full desire by BOTH parties did not maintain some kind of sexual relationship, even if infrequently.  If, indeed, they exist, they are rare and by no means the norm.  Again, you are making a false argument because you cannot defend your own position.  Ialmisry read the canons correctly, and commented on them correctly.  Of course they do not forbid the VOLUNTARY abstinence of both parties, but nobody said that they did.  If anything, they speak directly against those that maintain that such a relationship should be normal, or even praiseworthy.    

And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.
As in "help me to see my own faults and not to judge my brother"? Yes, this is a bit of a judgment, but I do this only to point out how your words can be read as a judgment of your brother.

No, as in "Grant instead to me your servant the spirit of purity and humility, the spirit of patience and neighborly love."
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2011, 02:14:43 AM »


And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.

Who says that two old geezers banging like bunnies isn't godly?  Certainly not me!  I am one of the "if you are married, do it" crowd.  Your response to my post would seem to indicate that you are one of those the canons are speaking to, at least if you really believe that sex between two married seniors is somehow ungodly.  BTW - the Prayer of St. Ephraim is my favorite.  What is your point, or have you lost it judging me?

 Roll Eyes

I have never said that the marital embrace is somehow ungodly as that teaching would be heretical and gnostic.

Perhaps I should ask if you are a member of the ungodly Orthodox Christian Laity as they tend to be so very anti-monastic.
What the OCL did to Archbishop Spyridon and Elder Ephraim was reprehensible.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 02:20:38 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2011, 03:11:34 AM »


And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.

Who says that two old geezers banging like bunnies isn't godly?  Certainly not me!  I am one of the "if you are married, do it" crowd.  Your response to my post would seem to indicate that you are one of those the canons are speaking to, at least if you really believe that sex between two married seniors is somehow ungodly.  BTW - the Prayer of St. Ephraim is my favorite.  What is your point, or have you lost it judging me?

 Roll Eyes

I have never said that the marital embrace is somehow ungodly as that teaching would be heretical and gnostic.

Perhaps I should ask if you are a member of the ungodly Orthodox Christian Laity as they tend to be so very anti-monastic.
What the OCL did to Archbishop Spyridon and Elder Ephraim was reprehensible.
Though there's nothing in your post that could be considered a violation of forum rules, such ad hominems and attempts to pin the collective guilt of a particular group onto Punch, who has never identified himself with the OCL, do nothing to address his arguments and only serve to distract us from the topic of this thread. I hope, therefore, that you'll apologize to Punch and to all of us for this red herring.

Now let's try to stay on topic and focus on arguments rather than on persons.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 03:12:30 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2011, 08:32:09 AM »


And I have likewise spoken to many senior citizens who are godly people. Of course, you would not reveal your sources because that would be a violation of privacy. The same applies with me.

Again, I have met many saintly people within Orthodoxy. I prefer to see goodness in people.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Perhaps praying the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim might help change this thread to a more positive light.

Who says that two old geezers banging like bunnies isn't godly?  Certainly not me!  I am one of the "if you are married, do it" crowd.  Your response to my post would seem to indicate that you are one of those the canons are speaking to, at least if you really believe that sex between two married seniors is somehow ungodly.  BTW - the Prayer of St. Ephraim is my favorite.  What is your point, or have you lost it judging me?

 Roll Eyes

I have never said that the marital embrace is somehow ungodly as that teaching would be heretical and gnostic.

Perhaps I should ask if you are a member of the ungodly Orthodox Christian Laity as they tend to be so very anti-monastic.
What the OCL did to Archbishop Spyridon and Elder Ephraim was reprehensible.
Many of Abp. Spyridon and Elder Ephraim's problems have nothing to do with OCL, and I say that as someone who thinks very highly of much of what Elder Ephraim does.

What, pray tell, do you find so ungodly about OCL? (I suspect I know, but would rather you state it.  If it is what I suspect, yes, its on topic on this thread). Btw, no, I'm not a member, but have gone to many of their activities, and just got their newsletter yesterday.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2011, 03:16:05 PM »


 I have never said that the marital embrace is somehow ungodly as that teaching would be heretical and gnostic.

Perhaps I should ask if you are a member of the ungodly Orthodox Christian Laity as they tend to be so very anti-monastic.
What the OCL did to Archbishop Spyridon and Elder Ephraim was reprehensible.

Well, many of my actions tend to be ungodly.  I am, at least nominally, an Orthodox Christian.  And, I am a layman.  I don't know about being anti-monastic.  My Godfather is a monk and I think rather highly of him and the Brothers at the Hermitage.  They also stay out of my bedroom, which is good since I really would not want to scandalize them.  My poor Godfather was scandalized enough when I told him that I had seen a Theotokos coffee mug.  Seeing me in my skivies would probably finish the poor man off (not just because he is a monk.  The Security force here in the plant considers be coming to work in a Speedo to be a "beyond design basis threat").  I have never met Archbishop Spyridon or Elder Ephraim and do not even know who they are, so I cannot judge if anything reprehensible was done to them or not. I can assure you that I never appeard to them in my skivies, so at least they were not exposed to that reprehessible sight. So, I guess that your post leaves me somewhat confused.
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