Author Topic: did I say the right thing?!  (Read 1358 times)

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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did I say the right thing?!
« on: April 06, 2011, 09:20:27 PM »
Hello, All.  I hope your having a spiritually beneficial lent. 

at my school, I'm known as the weird religious guy who goes to Church 3 times a week, kisses the hand of men in long black dresses at the supermarket, as has been known to quote the Bible on essays for various reasons.  the weird thing is, people are starting to ask me very deep religious questions.  this makes me so nervous!  I hope what I tell them is correct! 

he asked me if there was really a hell.  I told him that there is not yet.  he asked me where, then, people like "that Manson guy" went.  I said that when we die, we all go to a place where the lord is present to await the last judgement when Christ comes again.  he then asked where heaven and hell are, and I told him that they weren't yet.  I explained that on the last judgement, when Christ comes again, he will pour out his love on us.  to some people, it will be like fire (hell), but to those who love him, it will be utter bliss (heaven). 

did I say the right thing?  is this correct?  people are starting to ask me spiritual questions, and I'm a bit afraid of teaching heresy!

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 09:28:51 PM »
Trevor,

Some might nitpick, because there are disagreements about some things, but fwiw I think what you said was perfectly fine. :) Just remember that it's ok to say "I don't know" if you're not sure, and if it's not a pressing thing it's also fine to ask if you can get back to them (that way you can think about it, research it, or whatever). But if you know what to say, then by all means share. And God bless you!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 09:29:13 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 09:34:02 PM »

Trevor....when you are in such a situation....PRAY!  Ask for guidance...and if you are open...the words will come.

...but, don't get too haughty if they do.  They come from God, not from our own deep wisdom.



I think what you said is okay.  Like Asteriktos said, nobody really knows.  Some say hell is an actual physical place.  Remember, Lazarus, the poor man, sitting in the bosom of Abraham...and the rich man seeing him, but, not able to reach him due to the great "divide".

Others say it is a "state" of being...burned by God's pure love.

I hope to stay clear of it, whatever or wherever it may be.   ;)


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Offline Marc1152

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:02 PM »
Good job ! Just one side note. Charles Manson is still alive.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:42 PM »
Good job ! Just one side note. Charles Manson is still alive.

I know that, but I didn't want to make my friend feel stupid  ;)

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 12:27:58 AM »
Close, but I don't believe it would be correct to say that the Saints after Christ's Resurrection are in Hades.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 01:26:59 AM »
You might have added that upon our passing, we experience a foretaste of Heaven or Hell, based on our faith and works in this life, in anticipation of the Final Judgement.

While we do not know for sure, some Church Fathers have taught that the prayers of the living for those who have passed from this life, provide a temporary reprieve for the sins committed in this life.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 02:40:07 AM »
I think what you said was mostly correct. I would disagree that heaven and hell are "not yet." Many people are living a hell right here on earth. With such a question, I would answer that heaven and hell are very real. The specifics of how, what, and where heaven and hell are is hard to know. But we do know that heaven begins with the cultivation of our relationship with God through His Church in this life, and that hell is ultimately the horrible fate of those who forsake God. So heaven and hell are actual, and they are "now," in a sense. But others can correct me if I am mistaken. 

You said, "I explained that on the last judgement, when Christ comes again, he will pour out his love on us.  To some people, it will be like fire (hell), but to those who love him, it will be utter bliss (heaven)."  I agree with this, but again, I think this is happening now as well. I guess that it will be completed and intensified after the Judgement.

My prayers for you as you continue to influence your peers with the love of Christ and the Light of Orthodoxy! Very encouraging!  :)


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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 03:07:07 AM »
Good point, Gebre. There is "Paradise" and "Gehenna" in some sense while living, in another sense after the particular/individual judgment at death, and in another sense after the Final Judgment.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 03:53:00 AM »
Based on Rev. 20:11-15, I would see hell as being something that is created at the time of the Last Judgment...?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 04:03:47 AM »
Based on Rev. 20:11-15, I would see hell as being something that is created at the time of the Last Judgment...?

The Lake of Fire, yes. But the fundamental state of torment exists in a less complete form before the Last Judgment.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 04:12:13 AM »
Based on Rev. 20:11-15, I would see hell as being something that is created at the time of the Last Judgment...?

The Lake of Fire, yes. But the fundamental state of torment exists in a less complete form before the Last Judgment.

I would agree that there would seem to be a foretaste of hell, if such a thing exists; I guess I'm just not totally in line with speaking of people experiencing "hell" now (as opposed to suffering, purgation, cleansing, or some other term)
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2011, 04:19:38 AM »
Based on Rev. 20:11-15, I would see hell as being something that is created at the time of the Last Judgment...?

The Lake of Fire, yes. But the fundamental state of torment exists in a less complete form before the Last Judgment.

I would agree that there would seem to be a foretaste of hell, if such a thing exists; I guess I'm just not totally in line with speaking of people experiencing "hell" now (as opposed to suffering, purgation, cleansing, or some other term)

Why?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2011, 04:23:31 AM »
Because I think on some level it's conflating two things that are similar but not exactly the same. If hell is indeed around right now, then the lake of fire is different and should be called "second hell" or something...
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Offline Michał

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2011, 04:24:09 AM »
did I say the right thing?  is this correct?

I believe that we have to distinguish three periods:
1. before Christ's Resurrection,
2. after Christ's Resurrection,
3. after the Final Judgement.

Re:1. Both the righteous and the sinners went to Hades (the Greek name) or Sheol (the Hebrew name), although the righteous went to a part of Hades/Sheol called the Bosom of Abraham, or Paradise (by analogy to the real Paradise which was the Garden of Eden and which will the Garden of Eden restored, i.e., the Heavenly Jerusalem) - both names used by our Lord - while the sinners went to Hades/Sheol the proper, a.k.a. Tartarus. The righteous were receiving a partial reward, while the sinners - a partial punishment (as described in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus).
Re:2. All the righteous from the Bosom of Abraham were transferred to Heaven and that's where the righteous go now. Their reward is still partial but greater then the one offered in the Bosom of Abraham. The sinners still go Hades/Sheol the proper where their punishment is the same as it used to be.
Re:3. The righteous will be dwelling with Christ in the Heavenly Jerusalem which will be on the New Earth, under the New Heaven - all of it constituting the Heavenly Kingdom, or the Kingdom of God. They will be receiving the fullness of their reward. The sinners will be dwelling with Satan and all the demons in the Lake of Fire (to which Hades/Sheol will be thrown in), that is Hell or Gehenna. They will be receiving the fullness of their punishment.

At least that's how I understand it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:25:51 AM by Michał »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2011, 04:29:07 AM »
did I say the right thing?  is this correct?

I believe that we have to distinguish three periods:
1. before Christ's Resurrection,
2. after Christ's Resurrection,
3. after the Final Judgement.

Re:1. Both the righteous and the sinners went to Hades (the Greek name) or Sheol (the Hebrew name), although the righteous went to a part of Hades/Sheol called the Bosom of Abraham, or Paradise (by analogy to the real Paradise which was the Garden of Eden and which will the Garden of Eden restored, i.e., the Heavenly Jerusalem) - both names used by our Lord - while the sinners went to Hades/Sheol the proper, a.k.a. Tartarus. The righteous were receiving a partial reward, while the sinners - a partial punishment (as described in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus).
Re:2. All the righteous from the Bosom of Abraham were transferred to Heaven and that's where the righteous go now. Their reward is still partial but greater then the one offered in the Bosom of Abraham. The sinners still go Hades/Sheol the proper where their punishment is the same as it used to be.
Re:3. The righteous will be dwelling with Christ in the Heavenly Jerusalem which will be on the New Earth, under the New Heaven - all of it constituting the Heavenly Kingdom, or the Kingdom of God. They will be receiving the fullness of their reward. The sinners will be dwelling with Satan and all the demons in the Lake of Fire (to which Hades/Sheol will be thrown in), that is Hell or Gehenna. They will be receiving the fullness of their punishment.

At least that's how I understand it.


That seems entirely accurate to me.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2011, 04:29:59 AM »
Because I think on some level it's conflating two things that are similar but not exactly the same. If hell is indeed around right now, then the lake of fire is different and should be called "second hell" or something...

I was actually saying that there are three stages of Gehenna (1. basic torment of the living wicked in God's presence, 2. Hades/Sheol/Tartarus at death, 3. Lake of Fire after Final Judgment) not just two.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:32:07 AM by deusveritasest »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 05:32:45 AM »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 07:20:00 AM »
I think what you said was mostly correct. I would disagree that heaven and hell are "not yet." Many people are living a hell right here on earth. With such a question, I would answer that heaven and hell are very real. The specifics of how, what, and where heaven and hell are is hard to know. But we do know that heaven begins with the cultivation of our relationship with God through His Church in this life, and that hell is ultimately the horrible fate of those who forsake God. So heaven and hell are actual, and they are "now," in a sense. But others can correct me if I am mistaken. 

You said, "I explained that on the last judgement, when Christ comes again, he will pour out his love on us.  To some people, it will be like fire (hell), but to those who love him, it will be utter bliss (heaven)."  I agree with this, but again, I think this is happening now as well. I guess that it will be completed and intensified after the Judgement.

My prayers for you as you continue to influence your peers with the love of Christ and the Light of Orthodoxy! Very encouraging!  :)


Selam


This is interesting.  I've often wondered if hell is here.  Fornicators, adulterers, thieves, users of drugs, are all in "hell".  Since they have one life, doesn't that echo through eternity?

I guess I'm trying to find the scripture that says our bodies will be remaid (basically indestructable) and sent to everlasting fire where you'll be eaten, burnded, poked, gouged, raped, etc. forever.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 11:54:32 AM »
That seems entirely accurate to me.

It does? Me too. *scratches head in confusion* So I guess we agree after all. :)
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 03:40:00 PM »
Good point, Gebre. There is "Paradise" and "Gehenna" in some sense while living, in another sense after the particular/individual judgment at death, and in another sense after the Final Judgment.

Something I've found helpful in understanding all of this was reading the Gospel of Nicodemus (a.k.a. the Acts of Pilate). It can be found here. It's an extracanonical book of early origin, and as far as I'm aware as always been considered as profitable to read by the Orthodox Church. It is a Passion Gospel, with the main focus being on Christ's Harrowing of Hell.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 04:58:46 PM »
I guess I'm trying to find the scripture that says our bodies will be remaid (basically indestructable) and sent to everlasting fire where you'll be eaten, burnded, poked, gouged, raped, etc. forever.

It doesn't exist. All these specific physical tortures are simple speculation by persons overly fixated on the reality of Hell, and, IMO, they are not properly reflective of the compassion of God.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: did I say the right thing?!
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 05:00:18 PM »
That seems entirely accurate to me.

It does? Me too. *scratches head in confusion* So I guess we agree after all. :)

Well, the post we are commenting on only really address torment after death and torment after the Final Judgment; it did not address the first stage I was speaking of which is torment in this life. So this is indicative of agreement on stages 2 and 3, but not necessarily 1, as it did not address 1.
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