Mommy23
Newbie
 Offline
Posts: 11
|
 |
« on: April 06, 2011, 04:10:54 PM » |
|
If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 04:12:44 PM » |
|
No. The baby didn't do anything wrong. God is not Calvinist.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Not to be flippantly dismissive, but something of such a personal nature as this is best addressed by your priest, not by anonymous yahoos on an Internet discussion forum.
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,855
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 04:13:34 PM » |
|
No, it's not. Who told you that???
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 04:17:27 PM » |
|
LOL. That's all I have to say. LOL.
And no.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 04:19:57 PM » |
|
Jesus was conceived during Lent.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 04:21:18 PM » |
|
I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Marc1152
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 9,155
Let There Be Light
|
|
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 04:25:09 PM » |
|
If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?
No...But you have some splaining to do Lucy.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 04:25:30 PM » |
|
I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks! Well, there's no sin that repentance and confession can't rectify. Consult your spiritual father. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Not to be flippantly dismissive, but something of such a personal nature as this is best addressed by your priest, not by anonymous yahoos on an Internet discussion forum.
|
|
|
|
SolEX01
|
|
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM » |
|
I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks! Are you an Old Believer? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2011, 04:31:07 PM » |
|
I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child. My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Exarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 26,180
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 04:32:47 PM » |
|
Is it a sin to not fast from marital relations during Lent if your husband doesn't consent to such a fast? Do remember that St. Paul counseled couples to abstain from marital relations for times of fasting ONLY by mutual consent. ISTM that if he doesn't consent to such abstinence during Lent, then you would be sinning to deprive him of the marital relations he desires from you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:35:07 PM by PeterTheAleut »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 04:36:30 PM » |
|
I totally agree with that. But we were also trying to concieve too (I would have had to have minor surgery if we hadn't). I had a miscarriage a couple months ago so we are very happy. I am just upset about this email I got from a Monk. I don't know...I am hormonal I guess, and I want my baby to be healthy of course,
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 04:38:07 PM » |
|
And, he was very kind in it and everything, but it still makes me feel very worried that he came across as very concerned for me and the baby, and my first son. He is a very holy man, and I do respect his opinion but I just don't feel comfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Exarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 26,180
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 04:46:27 PM » |
|
And, he was very kind in it and everything, but it still makes me feel very worried that he came across as very concerned for me and the baby, and my first son. He is a very holy man, and I do respect his opinion but I just don't feel comfortable.
A holy man who would contradict the Apostle Paul?  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:46:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 04:59:25 PM » |
|
I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child. My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)
I'm going to guess that your priest is married and the monk is not. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 05:02:10 PM » |
|
haha--That is exactly what I told my mom (who was raised in Russia and definitely traditionalist). But truly, we (my mom and I) both think that it is fine and it is God's Will. Thank you all for making a hormonal pregnant lady feel better.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Salpy
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 10,522
|
|
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 08:04:13 PM » |
|
Congratulations and welcome to the forum. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St. Hripsimeh pray for us!
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 08:57:03 PM » |
|
Thank you! I didn't even really know the forum existed until I was googling about this topic. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
augustin717
Warned
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 4,117
|
|
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 09:11:06 PM » |
|
There is a widespread folk belief that kids conceived on fasting days will be cursed. In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 09:13:01 PM » |
|
^ I was born on Friday the 13th, and we lived at 1313 Jefferson Ave. And look how badly I turned out! Sometimes there is more to this superstition stuff than you would think!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." - Plutarch
|
|
|
Marc1152
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 9,155
Let There Be Light
|
|
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 09:16:28 PM » |
|
There is a widespread folk belief that kids conceived on fasting days will be cursed. In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.
Oh yes, that part is true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77sJT8O56E |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
|
|
|
|
HandmaidenofGod
|
|
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 09:21:23 PM » |
|
If we believe God to be the author of life, and ultimately it is God who makes conception possible, why would God curse His own creation?
Rejoice! For God has blessed you with a new life inside you!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 09:24:31 PM » |
|
Thank you, Handmaiden!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Salpy
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 10,522
|
|
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 09:27:14 PM » |
|
This is actually a good time to be expecting, since the Holy Mother of God herself was expecting at this time of year: Upon the Pontifical order of His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, the Feast of the Annunciation to the Virgin Mary was proclaimed as Day of Blessing of Motherhood and Beauty.
On April 7, all Armenian churches will conduct a special blessing service for women anticipating motherhood, the Information Services of the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin said. http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/04/special-blessing-service-for-women-on-april-7/ |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St. Hripsimeh pray for us!
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 09:30:04 PM » |
|
That's great, Salpy! Thank you for sharing that link.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252
Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!
|
|
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 09:31:36 PM » |
|
I can't say anything that others have not already said, but take it from me: this news is good news. Sure, marital relations are supposed to be avoided, but this is also supposed to be within the context of being given advice to do so by the couple's spiriual advisor.
Some couples are able to refrain from relations for the entire Fast; others are not able to do so yet. No one runs a marathon on their first day of distance training.
Again, this is good news! Glory to God!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 09:36:36 PM » |
|
Thank You, Father. I spoke to my Priest at Church tonight, and he told me that it was fine and not to worry and that you don't have to abstain from marital relations unless you want to and both partners agree. I feel much better now. He also mentioned the monastics have a much different view of sex than clergy do, which makes a lot of sense to me. So thank you everyone, for your kind words and reassurances! :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
LizaSymonenko
Христос Воскрес!!! Christ is Risen!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 7,823
|
|
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 09:39:05 PM » |
|
Congratulations! New life is always good news!
May you and the little one be healthy and happy...and blessed all the days of your lives!
Welcome to the forum!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
|
|
|
|
SolEX01
|
|
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 09:45:12 PM » |
|
Thank You, Father. I spoke to my Priest at Church tonight, and he told me that it was fine and not to worry and that you don't have to abstain from marital relations unless you want to and both partners agree. I feel much better now. He also mentioned the monastics have a much different view of sex than clergy do, which makes a lot of sense to me. So thank you everyone, for your kind words and reassurances! :-)
Dear OP, kindly refer to this post about whether or not we can accurately discern wisdom provided by monastics. This post reflects PeterTheAleut's prior comments in this thread as well as comments I had made earlier in the referenced thread below. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17649.msg405064.html#msg405064 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,231
|
|
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2011, 09:46:44 PM » |
|
^Your priest is correct.
St. Dionysius Canon 3. Persons who are self-sufficient and married ought to be judges of themselves. For we are told in writing by St. Paul that it is fitting that they should abstain from each other by agreement for a time, in order that they may indulge in prayer, and again come together (1 Cor. 7:5).
Interpretation (from the Rudder):
And when asked about husbands and wives whether they ought to be continent respecting each other, the Saint answers that on this point the parties themselves ought to be sufficient judges, since it is fitting and proper according to blessed Paul for them to engage in no bodily association and intercourse when they are indulging in prayer; and this course ought to be adopted by agreement between both parties — that is to say, by both the husband and the wife agreeing thereto — lest it should come to pass that one of the parties is tempted by the enemy, and the continence of the other become an injury to the one so tempted. For if one party is overcome by desire and is not permitted by the other party to enjoy the satisfaction of it, he is liable to fall with another woman and sin, according to Zonaras.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,231
|
|
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2011, 09:53:57 PM » |
|
Jesus was conceived during Lent.
Shhh. Is only rumor  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,231
|
|
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2011, 10:01:53 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,231
|
|
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2011, 10:04:45 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PrincessMommy
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 734
OCA
|
|
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2011, 10:07:07 PM » |
|
If we believe God to be the author of life, and ultimately it is God who makes conception possible, why would God curse His own creation?
Rejoice! For God has blessed you with a new life inside you!
Amen! Congratulations, Mommy23. A Nativity baby - what a great blessing for you all. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
LizaSymonenko
Христос Воскрес!!! Christ is Risen!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 7,823
|
|
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2011, 10:07:27 PM » |
|
Jesus was conceived during Lent.
Shhh. Is only rumor LOL! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
|
|
|
Mommy23
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 11
|
|
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 10:20:42 PM » |
|
This is actually what led to the forum and best answer to my question that I found when I started googling! Thank you. And thank you PrincessMommy! We are indeed blessed. I have wanted another baby for a while. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621
|
|
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2011, 01:09:17 AM » |
|
God never condemns the innocent. Therefore, rejoice in your child.
I know a child who was conceived during Lent. I spent time with him at a monastic retreat, and he was one of the most docile and gentle children I have ever met. He was quiet during the liturgy despite being always awake. Surely, God has graced him, and I feel he is going to grow up to be an exemplary Christian.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Tallitot
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,201
|
|
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2011, 01:44:29 AM » |
|
So what are you supposed to do about it now? The only alternative isn't very nice.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If people cry at weddings...why don't they laugh at funerals?
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2011, 02:28:58 AM » |
|
Ah yes, an oldie and a goodie. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2011, 03:12:25 AM » |
|
No. The baby didn't do anything wrong. God is not Calvinist.
As if Calvinism espouses the general reprobation of children conceived in sin.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2011, 03:14:06 AM » |
|
If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?
The parents may be "condemned", in some sense (well, really, just requiring penance), but nothing of that sort could be said of the child. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2011, 03:14:59 AM » |
|
I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever
Really? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2011, 03:17:29 AM » |
|
Is it a sin to not fast from marital relations during Lent if your husband doesn't consent to such a fast?
No, I don't think so. However... ISTM that if he doesn't consent to such abstinence during Lent, then you would be sinning to deprive him of the marital relations he desires from you.
That's a weird way of phrasing it. As if the husband shouldn't be concerned with what his wife wants and just deserves sex? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 03:17:59 AM by deusveritasest »
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2011, 03:19:35 AM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
|
|
yeshuaisiam
Archon
Offline
Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 2,719
The best things in life are not things.
|
|
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2011, 07:38:21 AM » |
|
First you have to find where it was written that for a couple that is one flesh in matrimony - it is a sin for them to "bond" during lent. I've posted this a few times in other posts. I'm specifically saying "sin". I don't think you have to explain to anybody anything. I would congratulate any church members who are married and are going to be blessed with a baby even if it was from lent. How wonderful any pregnancy is! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
