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Author Topic: Conception during Lent?  (Read 5474 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mommy23
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« on: April 06, 2011, 04:10:54 PM »

If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »

No. The baby didn't do anything wrong. God is not Calvinist.
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 04:13:34 PM »

No, it's not. Who told you that???
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 04:17:27 PM »

LOL. That's all I have to say. LOL.

And no.
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 04:19:57 PM »

Jesus was conceived during Lent.
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 04:21:18 PM »

I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks! Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 04:25:09 PM »

If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?

No...But you have some splaining to do Lucy.  Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 04:25:30 PM »

I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks! Smiley

Well, there's no sin that repentance and confession can't rectify. Consult your spiritual father.
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 04:26:03 PM »

I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever (I don't believe it, but you know how crazy pregnant women are...I just want some reassurance). Thanks! Smiley

Are you an Old Believer?
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Mommy23
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2011, 04:31:07 PM »

I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child.  My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 04:32:47 PM »

Is it a sin to not fast from marital relations during Lent if your husband doesn't consent to such a fast? Do remember that St. Paul counseled couples to abstain from marital relations for times of fasting ONLY by mutual consent. ISTM that if he doesn't consent to such abstinence during Lent, then you would be sinning to deprive him of the marital relations he desires from you.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:35:07 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 04:36:30 PM »

I totally agree with that. But we were also trying to concieve too (I would have had to have minor surgery if we hadn't). I had a miscarriage a couple months ago so we are very happy. I am just upset about this email I got from a Monk. I don't know...I am hormonal I guess, and I want my baby to be healthy of course,
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 04:38:07 PM »

And, he was very kind in it and everything, but it still makes me feel very worried that he came across as very concerned for me and the baby, and my first son.  He is a very holy man, and I do respect his opinion but I just don't feel comfortable.
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 04:46:27 PM »

And, he was very kind in it and everything, but it still makes me feel very worried that he came across as very concerned for me and the baby, and my first son.  He is a very holy man, and I do respect his opinion but I just don't feel comfortable.
A holy man who would contradict the Apostle Paul? Huh
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 04:59:25 PM »

I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child.  My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)
I'm going to guess that your priest is married and the monk is not.
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 05:02:10 PM »

haha--That is exactly what I told my mom (who was raised in Russia and definitely traditionalist). But truly, we (my mom and I) both think that it is fine and it is God's Will. Thank you all for making a hormonal pregnant lady feel better.
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 08:04:13 PM »

Congratulations and welcome to the forum.   Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 08:57:03 PM »

Thank you! I didn't even really know the forum existed until I was googling about this topic. Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 09:11:06 PM »

There is a widespread folk belief that kids conceived on fasting days will be cursed. In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 09:13:01 PM »

^ I was born on Friday the 13th, and we lived at 1313 Jefferson Ave. And look how badly I turned out! Sometimes there is more to this superstition stuff than you would think! Grin
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 09:16:28 PM »

There is a widespread folk belief that kids conceived on fasting days will be cursed. In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

Oh yes, that part is true.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77sJT8O56E
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 09:21:23 PM »

If we believe God to be the author of life, and ultimately it is God who makes conception possible, why would God curse His own creation?

Rejoice! For God has blessed you with a new life inside you!
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 09:24:31 PM »

Thank you, Handmaiden!
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 09:27:14 PM »

This is actually a good time to be expecting, since the Holy Mother of God herself was expecting at this time of year:


Quote
Upon the Pontifical order of His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, the Feast of the Annunciation to the Virgin Mary was proclaimed as Day of Blessing of Motherhood and Beauty.

On April 7, all Armenian churches will conduct a special blessing service for women anticipating motherhood, the Information Services of the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin said.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/04/special-blessing-service-for-women-on-april-7/
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 09:30:04 PM »

That's great, Salpy! Thank you for sharing that link.
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 09:31:36 PM »

I can't say anything that others have not already said, but take it from me: this news is good news. Sure, marital relations are supposed to be avoided, but this is also supposed to be within the context of being given advice to do so by the couple's spiriual advisor.

Some couples are able to refrain from relations for the entire Fast; others are not able to do so yet. No one runs a marathon on their first day of distance training.

Again, this is good news! Glory to God!
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 09:36:36 PM »

Thank You, Father. I spoke to my Priest at Church tonight, and he told me that it was fine and not to worry and that you don't have to abstain from marital relations unless you want to and both partners agree. I feel much better now. He also mentioned the monastics have a much different view of sex than clergy do, which makes a lot of sense to me. So thank you everyone, for your kind words and reassurances! :-)
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 09:39:05 PM »


Congratulations!  New life is always good news!

May you and the little one be healthy and happy...and blessed all the days of your lives!

Welcome to the forum!

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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 09:45:12 PM »

Thank You, Father. I spoke to my Priest at Church tonight, and he told me that it was fine and not to worry and that you don't have to abstain from marital relations unless you want to and both partners agree. I feel much better now. He also mentioned the monastics have a much different view of sex than clergy do, which makes a lot of sense to me. So thank you everyone, for your kind words and reassurances! :-)

Dear OP, kindly refer to this post about whether or not we can accurately discern wisdom provided by monastics.  This post reflects PeterTheAleut's prior comments in this thread as well as comments I had made earlier in the referenced thread below.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17649.msg405064.html#msg405064
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2011, 09:46:44 PM »

^Your priest is correct.  

St. Dionysius Canon 3. Persons who are self-sufficient and married ought to be judges of themselves. For we are told in writing by St. Paul that it is fitting that they should abstain from each other by agreement for a time, in order that they may indulge in prayer, and again come together (1 Cor. 7:5).


Interpretation (from the Rudder):

And when asked about husbands and wives whether they ought to be continent respecting each other, the Saint answers that on this point the parties themselves ought to be sufficient judges, since it is fitting and proper according to blessed Paul for them to engage in no bodily association and intercourse when they are indulging in prayer; and this course ought to be adopted by agreement between both parties — that is to say, by both the husband and the wife agreeing thereto — lest it should come to pass that one of the parties is tempted by the enemy, and the continence of the other become an injury to the one so tempted. For if one party is overcome by desire and is not permitted by the other party to enjoy the satisfaction of it, he is liable to fall with another woman and sin, according to Zonaras.


 

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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

Jesus was conceived during Lent.

Shhh.  Is only rumor  Wink 
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2011, 10:01:53 PM »

Also see this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13366.msg184811.html#msg184811
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2011, 10:04:45 PM »

And particularly here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13366.msg184841.html#msg184841
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2011, 10:07:07 PM »

If we believe God to be the author of life, and ultimately it is God who makes conception possible, why would God curse His own creation?

Rejoice! For God has blessed you with a new life inside you!

Amen! 

Congratulations, Mommy23.  A Nativity baby - what a great blessing for you all.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2011, 10:07:27 PM »

Jesus was conceived during Lent.

Shhh.  Is only rumor  Wink 

LOL!
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 10:20:42 PM »


This is actually what led to the forum and best answer to my question that I found when I started googling! Smiley Thank you.

And thank you PrincessMommy! We are indeed blessed. I have wanted another baby for a while.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »

God never condemns the innocent. Therefore, rejoice in your child.

I know a child who was conceived during Lent.  I spent time with him at a monastic retreat, and he was one of the most docile and gentle children I have ever met. He was quiet during the liturgy despite being always awake. Surely, God has graced him, and I feel he is going to grow up to be an exemplary Christian.
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2011, 01:44:29 AM »

So what are you supposed to do about it now? The only alternative isn't very nice.
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2011, 02:28:58 AM »

Ah yes, an oldie and a goodie.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2011, 03:12:25 AM »

No. The baby didn't do anything wrong. God is not Calvinist.

As if Calvinism espouses the general reprobation of children conceived in sin.  Undecided
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2011, 03:14:06 AM »

If a baby concieved during Lent, is that baby "condemned" since you are supposed to refrain from marital relations? Thoughts?

The parents may be "condemned", in some sense (well, really, just requiring penance), but nothing of that sort could be said of the child.
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2011, 03:14:59 AM »

I just found out im pregnant and you know, it's an oldddd Russian Orthodox (I was born in Russia) belief or whatever

Really?
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2011, 03:17:29 AM »

Is it a sin to not fast from marital relations during Lent if your husband doesn't consent to such a fast?

No, I don't think so. However...

ISTM that if he doesn't consent to such abstinence during Lent, then you would be sinning to deprive him of the marital relations he desires from you.

That's a weird way of phrasing it. As if the husband shouldn't be concerned with what his wife wants and just deserves sex?
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2011, 03:19:35 AM »

In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2011, 07:38:21 AM »

First you have to find where it was written that for a couple that is one flesh in matrimony - it is a sin for them to "bond" during lent.  I've posted this a few times in other posts.  I'm specifically saying "sin".

I don't think you have to explain to anybody anything.  I would congratulate any church members who are married and are going to be blessed with a baby even if it was from lent.  How wonderful any pregnancy is! Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2011, 09:29:33 AM »

In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

 laugh laugh laugh
Is werewolf the past tense of wolf? iswolf? arewolf? shallbewolf?
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2011, 10:01:35 PM »

I just learned that I, apparently, was conceived during Holy Week.
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 10:28:55 PM »

It's wonderful news, OP! God grant you (and the child you carry) many years!
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 10:37:33 PM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 10:39:09 PM »

I just learned that I, apparently, was conceived during Holy Week.

Well I was probably conceived during the Apostles' Fast, but such a thing doesn't surprise me at all given that both of my parents are pagans.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2011, 10:40:42 PM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

Even if there was Great Lent, Christ being conceived during it wouldn't be a no-no unless one believes the heresy that Joseph was His biological father.
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2011, 10:41:41 PM »

In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

 laugh laugh laugh
Is werewolf the past tense of wolf? iswolf? arewolf? shallbewolf?

...

Is this a serious question?  Cry
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 10:47:09 PM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)

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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2011, 11:03:29 AM »


Please excuse my ignorance, but on what is this claim based i.e. that Jesus was conceived during lent? Can you please elaborate. I hesitate to ask, because judging from the replies, it seems to be something that others on the forum find obvious? But I would appreciate it if someone elaborates on this so that I can be more informed on this.
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2011, 11:07:36 AM »


If we celebrate Jesus' nativity on Dec 25, that means his conception would have been Mar 25 (eg the Feast of the Annunciation).

Mar 25 almost always falls in Lent.  

Please excuse my ignorance, but on what is this claim based i.e. that Jesus was conceived during lent? Can you please elaborate. I hesitate to ask, because judging from the replies, it seems to be something that others on the forum find obvious? But I would appreciate it if someone elaborates on this so that I can be more informed on this.
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« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2011, 11:12:45 AM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)



Does March 25 always fall within Great Lent? Don't the months, days of Lent change somewhat each year?

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church actually teach that Jesus was conceived during Lent?

Or is this more of an Orthodox layman's joke sorta thing?
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2011, 11:28:21 AM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)



Does March 25 always fall within Great Lent? Don't the months, days of Lent change somewhat each year?

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church actually teach that Jesus was conceived during Lent?

Or is this more of an Orthodox layman's joke sorta thing?

a) No, it doesn't always fall within Great Lent, but it usually does. 

b) (and most importantly) this is all an "Orthodox layman's joke sorta thing".
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« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2011, 11:56:03 AM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)



Good logic, but you've got it backwards. The Feast of Annunciation is calculated based on the day of the Nativity, not the Nativity based on the day of Annunciation. So we start with December 25 or January 7 and count back 9 months of human gestation, and there you have it. A major feast day falling in Lent.

-Nick
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2011, 12:06:43 PM »

The Feast of Annunciation is calculated based on the day of the Nativity, not the Nativity based on the day of Annunciation. So we start with December 25 or January 7 and count back 9 months of human gestation, and there you have it. A major feast day falling in Lent.

-Nick

I've been told that it's otherwise.
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)



Good logic, but you've got it backwards. The Feast of Annunciation is calculated based on the day of the Nativity, not the Nativity based on the day of Annunciation. So we start with December 25 or January 7 and count back 9 months of human gestation, and there you have it. A major feast day falling in Lent.

-Nick

I had arranged the dates merely for ease in calculating the 9 months (it being easier to count forward with the months for the same reason it's easier to count forward with the alphabet, we're used to saying "January February March"), not for the way at which the determined dates were reached (which seemed pointlessly confusing for a quick response to an already confused person).

If had wanted to get really technical I could have pointed out that the Church New Year is in September, so the Nativity always precedes the Resurrection, and the real question is how can Christ be conceived after He is born.  It was tempting at the time, but also seemed pointlessly confusing (and not just a little smarmy).  laugh


a) No, it doesn't always fall within Great Lent, but it usually does.  


Though for those of us on the New Calendar it pretty much always does.  The only way for the Annunciation to fall outside of Lent is for it to occur after the Pascha, something impossible when the Pascha must happen after April 2.
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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2011, 04:29:19 PM »

СЛАВА ГОСПОДУ БОГУ  НАШЕМ.............

CONGRATULATION.......When the time arrives for your child be born ,Lord Grant that it's strong and Healthy,  for his Glory , And grows in Honor and Love of you It's Parent's...... Србска Игра...Коло Коло Весеље.....
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2011, 04:36:54 PM »


a) No, it doesn't always fall within Great Lent, but it usually does.  


Though for those of us on the New Calendar it pretty much always does.  The only way for the Annunciation to fall outside of Lent is for it to occur after the Pascha, something impossible when the Pascha must happen after April 2.

Correct!  Since there are plenty of people on the Old Calendar, though, I used "usually" for their sake. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2011, 04:41:28 PM »

is it not impossible for Christ to be conceived during Great Lent, because there was no death of Christ before the birth?


Or, is this one of those God exists outside of spacetime questions

No, this is one of those commemorating events spaced out over 33 years within a single year questions.

Feast of the Annunciation (Anniversary of Christ's conception)- March 25 (during Great Lent)

Feast of Nativity- December 25 (Nine months later)



Good logic, but you've got it backwards. The Feast of Annunciation is calculated based on the day of the Nativity, not the Nativity based on the day of Annunciation. So we start with December 25 or January 7 and count back 9 months of human gestation, and there you have it. A major feast day falling in Lent.

-Nick

I had arranged the dates merely for ease in calculating the 9 months (it being easier to count forward with the months for the same reason it's easier to count forward with the alphabet, we're used to saying "January February March"), not for the way at which the determined dates were reached (which seemed pointlessly confusing for a quick response to an already confused person).

If had wanted to get really technical I could have pointed out that the Church New Year is in September, so the Nativity always precedes the Resurrection, and the real question is how can Christ be conceived after He is born.  It was tempting at the time, but also seemed pointlessly confusing (and not just a little smarmy).  laugh


a) No, it doesn't always fall within Great Lent, but it usually does.  


Though for those of us on the New Calendar it pretty much always does.  The only way for the Annunciation to fall outside of Lent is for it to occur after the Pascha, something impossible when the Pascha must happen after April 2.

I figured you were too crafty to make a mistake like that  Grin

-Nick
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2011, 06:24:59 PM »

I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child.  My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)

Ma'am, if you didn't get dispensation before hand, you should get it afterward.  You are in a fast that lasts a lot longer than 40 days.  Depending on branch, I'm assuming your husband is gone for a year.  I sure hope this isn't his first deployment or first child.  If either are true, not to mention both . . . Gospodi pomiluj. 

There are some things that should not be denied a soldier (sailor, airman or marine as well) before deployment.  That's one of them.
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2011, 06:39:40 PM »

If this was true I'd be cursed. I'm gonna go ahead and safely assume I'm not.
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2011, 06:45:20 PM »

There is a widespread folk belief that kids conceived on fasting days will be cursed. In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

Oh yes, that part is true.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77sJT8O56E

wow.  we have vampires at my school  Cheesy
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2011, 06:46:43 PM »

I would say I lean more traditionally, but my Priest thinks it's ridiculous, and a Monk seems concerned so I confused. I personally don't think that God would punish an innocent child.  My husband did not want to abstain during Lent. I could have or not. It was dependent on him. He is deployed now so now I am abstaining :-)

Ma'am, if you didn't get dispensation before hand, you should get it afterward.  You are in a fast that lasts a lot longer than 40 days.  Depending on branch, I'm assuming your husband is gone for a year.  I sure hope this isn't his first deployment or first child.  If either are true, not to mention both . . . Gospodi pomiluj.  

There are some things that should not be denied a soldier (sailor, airman or marine as well) before deployment.  That's one of them.

Interesting take. Isn't true that exemptions to fasting rules are already a matter of normal practice if someone is in a special status, such as traveling, sick, etc...? Furthermore, it was my impression that only an ascetic fast would preclude marital relations--that is, the fast that precedes communion. No matter which way you look at it, I think that the praxis of the Church has already given this blessed couple a dispensation.
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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2011, 06:53:33 PM »

In my home region they taught they will become werewolves.

 laugh laugh laugh
Is werewolf the past tense of wolf? iswolf? arewolf? shallbewolf?

...

Is this a serious question?  Cry

I think it is perfectly valid question as he was responding to a ridiculous post with an equally ridiculous question--therefore, it was a valid rhetorical question that was made in all seriousness as a tool in the serious business of sarcasm. Sarcasm is a fine art and I think that the point was made rather well.
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« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2011, 11:55:28 AM »


If we celebrate Jesus' nativity on Dec 25, that means his conception would have been Mar 25 (eg the Feast of the Annunciation).

Mar 25 almost always falls in Lent.  

Please excuse my ignorance, but on what is this claim based i.e. that Jesus was conceived during lent? Can you please elaborate. I hesitate to ask, because judging from the replies, it seems to be something that others on the forum find obvious? But I would appreciate it if someone elaborates on this so that I can be more informed on this.


Well of course Dec 25th was the date put in place to crush the Winter Solstice celebration.  It's actually unknown the date of the Birth of our Lord & Savior.   

DEC 21st, of course being the "real date" of the solstice. It gets kind of messed up with leap year, but whatever Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2011, 12:02:59 PM »

Is Mommy a new mommy?  I hope everything went well.
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