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Author Topic: Eating with family that are not Orthodox  (Read 4863 times) Average Rating: 0
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stanley123
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2011, 02:43:49 AM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Are you allowed vegi-burgers? I mean the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety. Is it OK to eat and enjoy these type of hot dogs when you are supposed to fast from all meat products?
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2011, 02:59:35 AM »

I've found the fake-meat products to be a mixed bag. They often seem to have warnings about the potential for eggs/milk/etc. being in them (whether purposely or just from other things being made in the same place). I guess it has somewhat to do with how strict you are being.  I personally don't see the big deal if non-fasting things are in the "less than 2%" or trace amount region, but everyone's different.
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 03:21:56 AM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Are you allowed vegi-burgers? I mean the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety. Is it OK to eat and enjoy these type of hot dogs when you are supposed to fast from all meat products?

I've yet to find vegi burgers that taste like the real thing, and same goes for vegi hot dogs. You can clearly tell you are eating beans that have been mushed up and shaped into a hamburger patty. Actually, you can also do this with spinach. Spinach, flour, water.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 03:35:32 AM »

I've yet to find vegi burgers that taste like the real thing, and same goes for vegi hot dogs. You can clearly tell you are eating beans that have been mushed up and shaped into a hamburger patty. Actually, you can also do this with spinach. Spinach, flour, water.

I agree for the most part regarding veggie-meat. The only two that I ever found that I liked were the Morningstar Buffalo Nuggets (with a generous helping of ketchup) and the Morningstar BBQ Riblets (usually made into a sandwich). By far the worst tasting stuff, IMO, is fake-meat-bacon. Blah!
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 03:40:34 AM »

Ya'll got the story wrong about the two monks that were fasting who visited a monastery and broke their fast.

In essence it is correct: two monks visited a monastery, and chose to break their fast when food was offered to them rather than offend the brotherhood. But what is not mentioned (this is hinted at when the disciple goes to drink water) is that back then, fasting meant eating or drinking absolutely nothing. Breaking the fast would mean having a few dry pieces of bread, some figs, boiled weeds at most, and water. So, unless you are fasting like St. Zosima and momma offers you salted crackers, don't use that example.

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Skipping the obvious exceptions of children, the pregnant, the sick etc., I'll just go to the story of the Desert Fathers who went down to visit in town.  Their host brought out a meat stew, and one of the brothers took a pea and chewed it.  The Abbot told him "when you are among angels, you can eat like an angel, but when among men you will eat like a man."

The devil never eats meat.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2011, 08:28:11 AM »

I have broken fast twice this Lent, once when I went to someone's house and once when someone brought food into mine. In both instances the people would have been incredibly offended if I abstained, and in these instances I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2011, 09:31:02 AM »

...the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety.

And what would those be - I mean, the ones that taste very close to hamburgers? (Katherine asks hopefully)
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:35 AM »

I have broken fast twice this Lent, once when I went to someone's house and once when someone brought food into mine. In both instances the people would have been incredibly offended if I abstained, and in these instances I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.

My brother, you could not have said it better.  If I wanted to go around worrying about what was in the meal that I was eating, I would have become a Jew.  What has bothered me the most since my conversion to the Orthodox Church 16 years ago is that every lent I can find all kinds of threads on various sites about fasting.  All I hear in Church is people talk about fasting.  The sermons are about fasting.  If only I heard more about how to increase prayer, or where I could give alms that would actually help someone in need.  I would much rather attend two or three more services a week worshiping God than run around reading every label worrying that I may have eaten something with meat in it, or perhaps a bit of egg.  For some reason, the first chapter of Isaiah always comes to mind during this time of year.  I am not saying that one should avoid fasting.  However, during this time that our minds should be upon our own sins, and as we should be contemplating the horror of what happened on Holy Friday so many years ago, the ultimate injustice of the God who gave us life giving up His own life so that we may have life eternal, we are worried about what we should do if a friend puts real food before us.  But then again, perhaps I am too burdened down with sin and cannot see the true light.  If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:52 AM »

...I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.

LOL!

Amen, brother! Grin
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 09:36:17 AM »

If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.

And again I say, Amin!

 Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 11:50:27 AM »

...the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety.

And what would those be - I mean, the ones that taste very close to hamburgers? (Katherine asks hopefully)
Boca vegan burgers come VERY CLOSE. Put them on the grill with some veggie kebabs and they get a good smoky taste. If you want chicken nuggets, I still think that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Boca nuggets and patties and actual chicken. (Okay, maybe I would, but they still taste very very close....MorningStar's are not so great.)


Agabus: Legalistic a-hole! I love it!

My husband and I have a rule that we don't tell each other about what the other one ate during the day. Rarely, we are in situations where we have to break our fast (with others offering us food, as others mentioned) and sometimes we eat something that has milk or eggs as the 5th ingredient. We don't want to get all judgmental, so it's "don't ask, don't tell."
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2011, 12:30:02 PM »

Veggie chicken nuggets?  Veggie hotdogs?  I was unaware the "non-veggie" varieties of these food had real meat in them to begin with! 
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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2011, 12:47:14 PM »

If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.

And again I say, Amin!

 Smiley
Amin! Amin! Amin!
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2011, 01:06:50 PM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
So we're now to start confessing our sins to you?
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« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2011, 01:33:16 PM »

Ya'll got the story wrong about the two monks that were fasting who visited a monastery and broke their fast.

In essence it is correct: two monks visited a monastery, and chose to break their fast when food was offered to them rather than offend the brotherhood. But what is not mentioned (this is hinted at when the disciple goes to drink water) is that back then, fasting meant eating or drinking absolutely nothing. Breaking the fast would mean having a few dry pieces of bread, some figs, boiled weeds at most, and water. So, unless you are fasting like St. Zosima and momma offers you salted crackers, don't use that example.

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.

Why shouldn't I use the example?   It's an example of breaking a "fast".  Are there various degrees of breaking a fast?  

I'm not a theologian, and am not as well versed in the Church Fathers and other writings and am truly curious.  When it comes to "sin", all sin is sin.  Therefore, is lying a greater sin than stealing?  Is breaking the fast by eating bread (when as a monk you are not to) worse than the layperson eating meat?

"IF" I am allowed to quote St. Basil...

"What is the use of our abstinence, if instead of eating meat we devour our brother or sister with cruel gossip?"  

It is better to eat meat, and at the same time to be kind and humble, than to eat nothing and not show love to our neighbor.

Is this not an example that there are things more important to fasting than abstaining from eating meat?

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« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2011, 03:17:11 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
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« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »

Well into the '90s we could only afford to eat meat once a week, on Sundays.
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« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2011, 03:48:18 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.
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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »

It is better to eat meat, and at the same time to be kind and humble, than to eat nothing and not show love to our neighbor.

Is this not an example that there are things more important to fasting than abstaining from eating meat?


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But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone.

In the Lenten services we are constantly reminded that a fast pleasing to God is one in which we abstain from sin and apply ourselves to the love of God and neighbor.  We are instructed to keep the fast also by abstaining from certain foods and reducing our intake for the sake of prayer and almsgiving.  We constantly hear that it is useless to fast bodily from certain foods if we do not fast also from the passions, and yet the fact that we give into the passions while fasting bodily does not give us an excuse to relax our bodily fasting.  Rather, as the Lord said above to the Pharisee, both are needed, bodily fasting and love of God and neighbor.  We must love God by following his commandments, including the fasting requirements of the Church, and love our neighbor by caring for the needy and acting in a Christ-like manner towards all who we encounter.  Any discussion of “which is better” should only help us see that bodily fasting is a means to an end and not an end in itself, it is to help us overcome the passions and be more loving towards God and neighbor and is not a license to curse God and neighbor or disregard God and neighbor.  To speak of “which is better” should in no way cause us to cast aside what is lesser under the guise that we are doing what is better instead.  Such a path is foolish and we will find in doing so that in discarding the lesser we also cut ourselves off from the better, since the two are inseparable. 
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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.


Wow, you really take this forum business quite seriously I see. Got a life? Get one. Here's how: Get off of your computer, go outside, breath some of that good ol' fresh air. and above all Lighten up.

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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.
I second that.

The devil never eats meat. And, btw, according to Genesis it seems that the generation that was so evil that God destroyed them by the flood never ate meat either.
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2011, 04:40:10 PM »

Well into the '90s we could only afford to eat meat once a week, on Sundays.
Ah, the good old days of Ceaucescu, and patrioti (chicken feet).
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 04:59:19 PM »

in other words, the chickens were given to the soviet union to pay the debt and all the ordinary people could buy were chicken feet. lent, easter and all year round. even then, romania wasn't the poorest country in europe, so, if you don't eat meat, it's really unlikely you will die.
fasting from food actually helps to strengthen your self-control, which helps you also abstain from sin. unless you are fasting in order to show off, then it doesn't help.
may God give us much mercy as we repent and turn to Him, and please pray for me too, a sinner.
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 05:04:57 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.


Wow, you really take this forum business quite seriously I see. Got a life? Get one. Here's how: Get off of your computer, go outside, breath some of that good ol' fresh air. and above all Lighten up.
A hint for ya: You don't know me as well as you think you do.

Do note also that this is the Convert Issues board. This thread was started by a potential convert who's new to the Church and to our Orthopraxis, so I think it wise to keep this thread somewhat serious and give her the advice she seeks. Such absolutes as you like to deal in can be very dangerous to the soul of such a newbie.
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 05:14:24 PM »

One of my favorite stories:

One day St. Epiphanius sent someone to Abba Hilarion with this request, "Come, and let us see one another before we depart from the body." When he came, they rejoiced in each other's company. During their meal, they were brought a fowl. Epiphanius took it and gave it to Hilarion. Then Abba Hilarion said to him, "Forgive me, but since I received the habit I have not eaten meat that has been killed." Then the bishop answered, "Since I took the habit, I have not allowed anyone to go to sleep with a complaint against me, and I have not gone to rest with a complaint against anyone." The old man replied, "Forgive me, your way of life is better than mine."
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2011, 05:20:24 PM »

One of my favorite stories:

One day St. Epiphanius sent someone to Abba Hilarion with this request, "Come, and let us see one another before we depart from the body." When he came, they rejoiced in each other's company. During their meal, they were brought a fowl. Epiphanius took it and gave it to Hilarion. Then Abba Hilarion said to him, "Forgive me, but since I received the habit I have not eaten meat that has been killed." Then the bishop answered, "Since I took the habit, I have not allowed anyone to go to sleep with a complaint against me, and I have not gone to rest with a complaint against anyone." The old man replied, "Forgive me, your way of life is better than mine."

Love that one, it's been on my mind the entire thread.
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2011, 12:02:21 AM »

This thread is a wonderful example of false dichotomies.

You can truly not have your cake and not complain about it too.
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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2011, 09:38:48 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2011, 10:25:02 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2011, 10:33:36 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
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« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2011, 10:49:46 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.
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« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2011, 10:57:33 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.

That's because the Orthodox Church isn't scholastic, with "one size fits all." We have the one rule of akrivia, and the principle of economia that, with spiritual guideance and pastoring, adapts the strict, theoretlcal standard to the actual needs.
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« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2011, 11:48:01 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.

That's because the Orthodox Church isn't scholastic, with "one size fits all." We have the one rule of akrivia, and the principle of economia that, with spiritual guideance and pastoring, adapts the strict, theoretlcal standard to the actual needs.

Yes, which I also understand, and believe that I alluded to in my post. But that would be according to one's individual circumstances under the guidance of one's priest or spiritual father - but not the fasting guidelines, which say nothing, AFAIK, about fish, dairy, eggs etc. being more acceptable to eat during Lent than meat. This is the point that I find puzzling - meat is absolutely forbidden but fish and dairy are ok.
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« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
Just to make it clear: for that reason a can of tuna is far more to the intention of fasting than lobster tail. I only mentioned what the real problem was to put it in context. And it wasn't just 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean: in colonial New England they ground lobsters into fertilizer, servants went on strike when forced to eat it, and indentured servants had it in their contracts that they wouldn't have to eat it more than twice a week.
Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

It wasn't until the twentieth century, especially the 50's that it became a luxury.  In Louisana, crawfish were the diet of the poverty stricken Cajuns, until us "americains" (Cajun for Yankees) developed a taste for them (the crawfish that is).
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« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2011, 03:55:31 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
Just to make it clear: for that reason a can of tuna is far more to the intention of fasting than lobster tail. I only mentioned what the real problem was to put it in context. And it wasn't just 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean: in colonial New England they ground lobsters into fertilizer, servants went on strike when forced to eat it, and indentured servants had it in their contracts that they wouldn't have to eat it more than twice a week.
Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

It wasn't until the twentieth century, especially the 50's that it became a luxury.  In Louisana, crawfish were the diet of the poverty stricken Cajuns, until us "americains" (Cajun for Yankees) developed a taste for them (the crawfish that is).
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« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2011, 04:01:02 PM »

Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

I still consider it at bottom feeding trash fish ("Marine Cockroach" is my favorite nickname for it) and I certainly won't be caught dead eating it.  Blech.

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.

I normally just tell people I'm allergic to shellfish.  It may not be a physical allergy, but it's certainly an intellectual one!
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« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2011, 04:44:38 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

Ewwwwww..... Tongue
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« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2011, 05:16:35 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

Ewwwwww..... Tongue

I guess that you would really have a problem with fried rattlesnake.
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« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2011, 05:19:59 PM »

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.
You have to STOMACH fried clams! Blasphemy! They are absolutely delicious.
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« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »

Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

I still consider it at bottom feeding trash fish ("Marine Cockroach" is my favorite nickname for it) and I certainly won't be caught dead eating it.  Blech.
One of our names in Arabis is "Sea Fleas."

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.

I normally just tell people I'm allergic to shellfish.  It may not be a physical allergy, but it's certainly an intellectual one!
I'm allergic to scallops: I had some in a dish my Korean sistere in law made. I've never been in such pain before.
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« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2011, 07:09:47 PM »

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.
You have to STOMACH fried clams! Blasphemy! They are absolutely delicious.

Well, I've discovered if you fry anything, I'll most likely eat it.

Fried clams are good when fried with a tasty breading and with appropriate dipping sauce.  In short, they're just a bit of protein added to a bread/sauce meal Wink
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« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2011, 02:32:20 AM »

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

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« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2011, 02:49:06 AM »

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 
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« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2011, 12:26:30 AM »


Oh, good grief.  Someone was sarcastic.  I was sarcastic back.  A good time was had by all.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Maybe watch a documentary on TV or eat some fruit or something.  No one in this thread is going to hell over what was discussed.  We had some fun with the subject matter.  You guys are party-poopers, end of story. 
Geez....no one can have any fun anymore without someone else taking the prideful, higher "intellectual ground" and then making sure that everyone else knows how intellectual they are.  We get it okay.  Get over the fact that some of us have a lower form of humour and not everything you say is "gospel" to us, okay?Huh?  Also, not everything is subject to an intellectual debate over who is smarter than whom or who is more "original" than whom.  You people really need to lighten up and understand that the world is bigger than your hefty, telephone book sized bible.


"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 
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« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2011, 12:56:34 AM »

Oh, good grief.  Someone was sarcastic.  I was sarcastic back.  A good time was had by all.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Maybe watch a documentary on TV or eat some fruit or something.  No one in this thread is going to hell over what was discussed.  We had some fun with the subject matter.  You guys are party-poopers, end of story. 
Geez....no one can have any fun anymore without someone else taking the prideful, higher "intellectual ground" and then making sure that everyone else knows how intellectual they are.  We get it okay.  Get over the fact that some of us have a lower form of humour and not everything you say is "gospel" to us, okay?Huh?  Also, not everything is subject to an intellectual debate over who is smarter than whom or who is more "original" than whom.  You people really need to lighten up and understand that the world is bigger than your hefty, telephone book sized bible.


"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 

orthonorm, are you taking notes? Soak the wisdom into your catechumen brain. Review these posts when you depart during the liturgy of the faithful.
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