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Author Topic: Eating with family that are not Orthodox  (Read 4918 times) Average Rating: 0
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casisthename
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« on: April 05, 2011, 03:27:52 PM »

Hey guys,

Do you have any advice on how to handle eating with non Orthodox family members during fasts? Especially, when they provide the meal. Obviously, I want to keep the fast but at the same time during the time I must be home during lent it's very difficult to do. My parents are not Orthodox and therefor do not cook lenten. At school I eat in the cafeteria and can usually find something lenten. My mom's not a short order cook and this is my religious belief not hers so I don't feel like it would be right to eat something different then the family. Yet, it is very important to keep Lent.
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 03:41:00 PM »

I ain't Orthodox. So with a grain of salt (which is all I eating for the entire fast), eat with them. Just have a little less. Keep a hungry a little. That one of the big points in fasting in the first place. And eating a little less or even less earlier or later announces nothing to the world about yourself or what you are doing and certainly will cause no strife.

FWIW.

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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 03:50:34 PM »

I have the same issue. I just eat whatever they cook. If it's a fix-it-yourself night, I have some ramen or rice or something. Or pancakes. Grin

From what I keep hearing, there are monks or Saints that would actually eat more than their guest, so the guest doesn't feel awkward about coming over for dinner when their host is supposed to be fasting.

It really comes down to a matter of common courtesy vs. fasting with this. In most cases, common courtesy wins. If they hand you a nice, big flank steak or filet mignon... Relish the moment. You won't have non-lenten food made for you without your say during Great Lent forever.  Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 04:07:53 PM »


I am reading the Desert Fathers, and there's one episode which answers this.  I wish I could remember which Father it was, but, I tend to flip through the book and stop at odd pages here and there.  I'll try to look it up tonight.

The story goes something like this:

Abba Something and his disciple went visiting to a neighboring monastery.  The brothers there greeted them warmly and put out food for them to eat.  They sat and ate, and in time got up to go home.

On the way home, the disciple stopped by a stream and bent to get a drink of water, because it was hot and dusty.  Abba Something quickly called to him and told him to stop, that today is a fasting day.  The disciple looked up at him and reminded him that they had just eaten a full meal....to which the Father replied something like ...we ate because it would have been rude to dismiss the other's charity, however, now that we are on our own, we are to fast.

Therefore, if you are in company of non-Orthodox, or even Orthodox who might not be fasting, it is not sinful to partake of their meal (within reason).  However, the moment you part company with them remember it's still a fast.

I'll try to find which Father this was and get back to you tomorrow.
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 04:34:12 PM »

Christ didn't die for us so we could be legalistic or make a big deal about our spiritual exercises. 'Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing'--or something like that.

When it's under your control, fast. When it's not, say nothing and take a smaller portion.  Don't put your loved ones to any effort or expense, and don't burden them with your own preoccupations.
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 08:15:30 PM »

Liza, i agree w you here.... (btw Liza, we often vacation in MI or even UP)....my husband is not orthodox and is retired...he is also a good cook....i have only had one small portion of beef this Lent, but that was an evening he told me he had made "scrumptious swiss steak" and his "feelings will be hurt if you dont have some"....of course i did- and it was scrumptious! i think that is what i needed to do to not break my fast...(does that even make sense lol?) but i am just a catechumen and i am sure your priest can advise you on that....
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 08:21:21 PM »

When in nonorthodoxia, do as the nonorthodoxians do Smiley Maybe over time drop some hints, though, and see if family are receptive to providing dishes that everyone can eat, but which are also Lenten (e.g. veggie chili or something).
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 08:30:48 PM »

Hey guys,

Do you have any advice on how to handle eating with non Orthodox family members during fasts? Especially, when they provide the meal. Obviously, I want to keep the fast but at the same time during the time I must be home during lent it's very difficult to do. My parents are not Orthodox and therefor do not cook lenten. At school I eat in the cafeteria and can usually find something lenten. My mom's not a short order cook and this is my religious belief not hers so I don't feel like it would be right to eat something different then the family. Yet, it is very important to keep Lent.

You have the rest of that day, week, and lent to starve yourself, it would be wrong to deny hospitality offered out of love.
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 08:46:22 PM »

I too was having trouble with this subject and after a few talks with my priest he explained it as something like we fast in secret, letting everyone around us know about the fast is the wrong way to go about it, so when going to someones house eat like them, but dont accept extra invitations to people's houses just to eat non- Lent food.  I mentioned about family coming once a week and they would know if all of a sudden I stopped serving the normal rotation of meat dishes and he said again we fast in secret so when you have non-Orthodox coming to your house serve them what they will enjoy, even if it is non-Lent food.  He also had a quote from the scriptures about how keeping the fast secret.
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 08:55:44 PM »

Hospitality is more important than fasting.  You eat what they have prepared.  After that, you can go back to the fasting.  If there is a buffet situation and you think that maybe you can get away with eating fasting foods that they might have, you can try that.  However, if you think people would notice that you weren't eating meat or dairy, then go ahead and eat it. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 08:56:17 PM »

I must say, if my memories are accurate, the responses on this thread are quite different than the ones given on a similar thread a half dozen years ago.
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 09:03:53 PM »


Most of these posters weren't posting half a dozen years ago.

Wink
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 09:27:04 PM »

Liza, i agree w you here.... (btw Liza, we often vacation in MI or even UP)....my husband is not orthodox and is retired...he is also a good cook....i have only had one small portion of beef this Lent, but that was an evening he told me he had made "scrumptious swiss steak" and his "feelings will be hurt if you dont have some"....of course i did- and it was scrumptious! i think that is what i needed to do to not break my fast...(does that even make sense lol?) but i am just a catechumen and i am sure your priest can advise you on that....

Isn't Michigan beautiful?  Let me know when you are in the area! 
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 09:44:37 PM »

Whatever you do, always make sure you let your non-Orthodox family know about the Church's view of them and how they are on their way towards hell unless they change their ways, forsake heresy and embrace the true faith.
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 09:58:35 PM »

Whatever you do, always make sure you let your non-Orthodox family know about the Church's view of them and how they are on their way towards hell unless they change their ways, forsake heresy and embrace the true faith.

Great idea!  Let me take some notes.... "on their way to hell"... "Forsake heresy"... "embrace the true faith"

Augustin, how do you feel about the use of prayer rope as impromptu torture device to aid in their conversion?  How many knots around the wrist to get that properly burnt without breaking the skin effect do they use in the Old Country? 

When I cast my glares of disapproval is it okay to cast icons as well? Print or hand painted (laminated prints, of course, paper cuts probably won't get across the appropriate level of my convert scorn)?
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 10:04:26 PM »

Whatever you do, always make sure you let your non-Orthodox family know about the Church's view of them and how they are on their way towards hell unless they change their ways, forsake heresy and embrace the true faith.

Great idea!  Let me take some notes.... "on their way to hell"... "Forsake heresy"... "embrace the true faith"

Augustin, how do you feel about the use of prayer rope as impromptu torture device to aid in their conversion?  How many knots around the wrist to get that properly burnt without breaking the skin effect do they use in the Old Country? 

When I cast my glares of disapproval is it okay to cast icons as well? Print or hand painted (laminated prints, of course, paper cuts probably won't get across the appropriate level of my convert scorn)?

I <3 u both
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 11:32:14 PM »

casisthename,

 Just this past weekend, my fiance and I visited my mother and had dinner with her.  This is something that I love to do because, well, she's my mamma.  "What should I do?" I asked myself.  After researching a bit, I found numerous examples (Desert Fathers, Priests, etc...) that have all said that it's uncharitable to decline what others have cooked for you.  Additionally, I tend to believe that if your parents cooked for you, eating it is a way of honoring them.  So, I was prepared to eat whatever she cooked.  But I offered to cook for them and was able to make a Lenten dish that everyone loved!  So, if I were you, I'd would eat whatever she cooks and not let it trouble you in the least. 

 BUT, as the wise caveat around here goes, why not ask your priest?   
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 12:00:43 AM »

This is a subject I've been thinking about for a bit. My priest, just before I was Chrismated and approached him with this same problem gave me basically the advice that's in this thread. Of course now I've moved to a different city and am going down to my parents for easter and because of schedules we're going to have our Easter mean Saturday at noon. I've been struggling with the idea, knowing I'm allowed, but just feeling very odd about it.

But as someone has already said, it isn't our business to be legalistic about it.
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 12:18:24 AM »

I absolutely refuse to eat any food prepared by the vile hands of a heretic. True to the end, with a crown waiting in my mansion.
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 12:23:17 AM »

Whatever you do, always make sure you let your non-Orthodox family know about the Church's view of them and how they are on their way towards hell unless they change their ways, forsake heresy and embrace the true faith.

I absolutely refuse to eat any food prepared by the vile hands of a heretic. True to the end, with a crown waiting in my mansion.

Ahh! Now we're starting to get comments just like the good old days!  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 02:07:06 AM »

I absolutely refuse to eat any food prepared by the vile hands of a heretic. True to the end, with a crown waiting in my mansion.

So what you're saying is that people who convert to Orthodoxy should cut themselves off from all family?

I forget, what does the decalogue say about our parents?
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 02:14:25 AM »

"Faith, hope and Love...but the greatest of these is Love."

Would it be loving to say, "Sorry.  I'm FASTING!"

Would it be loving to say, "Sorry.  I'm Orthodox now and you're a heterodox heretic.  I can't eat your cooking.  I'm FASTING, after all."

Would it be loving to say, "Sorry.  You're a heretic and your cooking stinks."

Eat what you are given, be thankful for it, and most of all: be thankful for the heart of the one who prepared it. 



Being Orthodox is not about fastings.  Demons fast all the time and have no love in them.  This is what separates man/woman from the demons:  we have the ability to love and be loving and choose God.

choose God and eat what has been prepared for you in the name of the Lord.
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 02:16:02 AM »

I absolutely refuse to eat any food prepared by the vile hands of a heretic. True to the end, with a crown waiting in my mansion.

Pretty lonely in that mansion, isn't it?  

I know the bishops and priests of  your diocese.  I know you did not learn this from them.  You obviously have not been paying attention in Serbian church.

Papa (His Grace, the Bishop if you prefer)  Longin would not approve of your attitude.  I know him personally and he would not agree with you and he would give you holy smack for this.  I may ask him to sign up for this forum and answer this question himself and to answer you directly, just for the fun of it.  I cannot believe any Orthodox person would actually write this on the internet.  Shame on you!
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 02:23:19 AM »

Some posters in this thread appear to have broken sarcasm meters. Here, you can borrow mine...

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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 02:30:08 AM »

Some posters in this thread appear to have broken sarcasm meters. Here, you can borrow mine...



"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill.

If so, then this thread is the lowest of all time.  Some things are just not funny.
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 02:32:05 AM »

Some posters in this thread appear to have broken sarcasm meters. Here, you can borrow mine...



"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill.

If so, then this thread is the lowest of all time.  Some things are just not funny.
And some people just need to develop a sense of humor. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 02:32:56 AM »

Whatever you do, always make sure you let your non-Orthodox family know about the Church's view of them and how they are on their way towards hell unless they change their ways, forsake heresy and embrace the true faith.

Now THIS is funny!  Great one!
 A very well crafted response via sarcasm.  Well received!  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 02:35:17 AM »

Some posters in this thread appear to have broken sarcasm meters. Here, you can borrow mine...



"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill.

If so, then this thread is the lowest of all time.  Some things are just not funny.
And some people just need to develop a sense of humor. Wink

Gotcha.  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 02:38:51 AM »

On another note:  I had non-Orthodox visitors this evening for dinner.  Because they know nothing about Orthodoxy, or about my personal habits, and because these were young people unaccostomed to fasting,  I ordered take out from Pizza Hut.  Am I going to Hell?

Smiley

Love,
Columbina

(hope the previous exchange was all in good fun.  It was on my side.)

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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2011, 02:48:50 AM »

For my part it was as well Smiley Mmm... pizza hut, I could go for some of that right about now!

Regarding non-Orthodox visitors, I don't often have visitors here, but did have my mother and her husband (both Protestants) here last year, and an Orthodox priest was also here. After the priest was done with some prayers he offered the cross for veneration. I was first up, and after kissing the cross I kissed his hand. My Mom hesitantly kissed the cross, and then, not wanting to be rude, very hesitantly kissed his hand. Then her husband very very hesitantly kissed the cross and drew back quickly, like he was thinking "I ain't kissing another man's hand!"  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2011, 02:53:30 AM »

For my part it was as well Smiley Mmm... pizza hut, I could go for some of that right about now!

Regarding non-Orthodox visitors, I don't often have visitors here, but did have my mother and her husband (both Protestants) here last year, and an Orthodox priest was also here. After the priest was done with some prayers he offered the cross for veneration. I was first up, and after kissing the cross I kissed his hand. My Mom hesitantly kissed the cross, and then, not wanting to be rude, very hesitantly kissed his hand. Then her husband very very hesitantly kissed the cross and drew back quickly, like he was thinking "I ain't kissing another man's hand!"  Grin

I think I am in love with your step-dad.  LOL~! Great story!  Thanks!  I needed it this Lent!  Yeah, it was kinda torture to watch everyone else eating Pizza Hut while I munched on a crust...I told them that I had a stomach issue (true) and I couldn't have a whole piece.  When they left, I had a bowl of rice and teriyaki veggie fry.  Yummy!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 02:55:03 AM by blackincense » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2011, 09:37:09 AM »

It was my anniversary with my husband yesterday and we celebrated by eating cheese-less pizza and breadsticks at Pizza Hut (yes, that's how we celebrate!). He was less than thrilled but it did go a long way towards curing my pizza craving!

But I guess your visitors would have been confused at a cheese-less pizza!
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2011, 10:38:28 AM »

I ordered take out from Pizza Hut.  Am I going to Hell?

Yep.  Oh well.
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2011, 10:39:01 AM »

^ sorry, I couldn't resist.   Wink
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2011, 10:58:39 AM »

It was my anniversary with my husband yesterday and we celebrated by eating cheese-less pizza and breadsticks at Pizza Hut (yes, that's how we celebrate!). He was less than thrilled but it did go a long way towards curing my pizza craving!

But I guess your visitors would have been confused at a cheese-less pizza!

I always thought that their pizza was cheese-less all of the time!  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 11:03:08 AM »

Haha, don't get me started on Pizza Hut (I wrote a blog entry called "The Pizza Hut Curse").  Angry I love their pan pizza crusts too much to leave....

Papa John's, which is popular in my area, blech.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 11:15:56 AM »


Just a reminder, This is the Convert Issues Forum and not a place for deprecating statements about the Holy Orthodox Church or its members. As  can be noted above, some people do not get the ironic sarcasm of some of the posts on this topic until it was brought out by Asterikos (thank you Asterikos for the  meter, it was funny).

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is listed in the  standing post-its  of the Forum but to help you remember our purpose it is as follows:
... to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or argument. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 12:36:39 PM »

On another note:  I had non-Orthodox visitors this evening for dinner.  Because they know nothing about Orthodoxy, or about my personal habits, and because these were young people unaccostomed to fasting,  I ordered take out from Pizza Hut.  Am I going to Hell?

Probably.  At least, I hope so.  I could use the company.
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2011, 12:38:15 PM »

It was my anniversary with my husband yesterday and we celebrated by eating cheese-less pizza and breadsticks at Pizza Hut (yes, that's how we celebrate!). He was less than thrilled but it did go a long way towards curing my pizza craving!

But I guess your visitors would have been confused at a cheese-less pizza!

You poor woman.  Cheese-less pizza is grounds for divorce!
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 12:41:52 PM »

So I'm deciding between divorce and hell now?

(He had a few beers. He's over it.  Wink)
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »

So I'm deciding between divorce and hell now?

(He had a few beers. He's over it.  Wink)

Hey, this thread is about food, not marriage :-)
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2011, 12:48:54 PM »

 Grin Marriage very much depends on food. Am I right, ladies and gentlemen?

(And for grouchy husbands, food depends on the state of the marriage at the moment!)
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 12:50:39 PM »

Grin Marriage very much depends on food. Am I right, ladies and gentlemen?

(And for grouchy husbands, food depends on the state of the marriage at the moment!)

You are right on both accounts!
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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 04:05:05 PM »

personally i think it's not difficult to make some yummy dish with veg and beans to serve with rice, and then serve a non-fasting dish (sorry i have a personal problem with naming non-lentern foods during lent, i prefer to pretend they don't exist!) on the side or on the top of the rice to give to your non-fasting guests.
i live with a non-fasting person, and can give you a link to several 'one person fasting one not' recipes if you like (and if it is allowed; it is from another orthodox forum).

as for going to people's houses, you can offer to take a dish with you to have with the rice/potatoes and veg they cook. if that is difficult, take advice from your priest or (eg. if you are not yet orthodox so don't have a priest) from some spiritual person who knows you well.
the thing we are trying to do in lent is to develop a good spiritual discipline, so we are not lazy (avoiding prayer, Bible study, fasting and giving to those in need). we are also striving to avoid pride.
so whether you fast or not in someone else's house depends on whether you are being a bit lazy/embarrassed about your religion by not fasting, or whether you are being unloving and demanding by not fasting. it depends on each person's situation, which is why a priest is usually the best person to give advice.

i was previously in a country where there were not many Christians during the apostles' fast, and the Christians i did meet were not orthodox. i had no opportunity to cook/buy my own food, and i discussed it with my priest and in the end i did not fast until i came home.
may God give you all many blessings this fast, and please pray for me too, a sinner.
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2011, 02:04:53 AM »

Ya'll got the story wrong about the two monks that were fasting who visited a monastery and broke their fast.

In essence it is correct: two monks visited a monastery, and chose to break their fast when food was offered to them rather than offend the brotherhood. But what is not mentioned (this is hinted at when the disciple goes to drink water) is that back then, fasting meant eating or drinking absolutely nothing. Breaking the fast would mean having a few dry pieces of bread, some figs, boiled weeds at most, and water. So, unless you are fasting like St. Zosima and momma offers you salted crackers, don't use that example.

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2011, 02:43:49 AM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Are you allowed vegi-burgers? I mean the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety. Is it OK to eat and enjoy these type of hot dogs when you are supposed to fast from all meat products?
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2011, 02:59:35 AM »

I've found the fake-meat products to be a mixed bag. They often seem to have warnings about the potential for eggs/milk/etc. being in them (whether purposely or just from other things being made in the same place). I guess it has somewhat to do with how strict you are being.  I personally don't see the big deal if non-fasting things are in the "less than 2%" or trace amount region, but everyone's different.
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 03:21:56 AM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Are you allowed vegi-burgers? I mean the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety. Is it OK to eat and enjoy these type of hot dogs when you are supposed to fast from all meat products?

I've yet to find vegi burgers that taste like the real thing, and same goes for vegi hot dogs. You can clearly tell you are eating beans that have been mushed up and shaped into a hamburger patty. Actually, you can also do this with spinach. Spinach, flour, water.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 03:35:32 AM »

I've yet to find vegi burgers that taste like the real thing, and same goes for vegi hot dogs. You can clearly tell you are eating beans that have been mushed up and shaped into a hamburger patty. Actually, you can also do this with spinach. Spinach, flour, water.

I agree for the most part regarding veggie-meat. The only two that I ever found that I liked were the Morningstar Buffalo Nuggets (with a generous helping of ketchup) and the Morningstar BBQ Riblets (usually made into a sandwich). By far the worst tasting stuff, IMO, is fake-meat-bacon. Blah!
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2011, 03:40:34 AM »

Ya'll got the story wrong about the two monks that were fasting who visited a monastery and broke their fast.

In essence it is correct: two monks visited a monastery, and chose to break their fast when food was offered to them rather than offend the brotherhood. But what is not mentioned (this is hinted at when the disciple goes to drink water) is that back then, fasting meant eating or drinking absolutely nothing. Breaking the fast would mean having a few dry pieces of bread, some figs, boiled weeds at most, and water. So, unless you are fasting like St. Zosima and momma offers you salted crackers, don't use that example.

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
Skipping the obvious exceptions of children, the pregnant, the sick etc., I'll just go to the story of the Desert Fathers who went down to visit in town.  Their host brought out a meat stew, and one of the brothers took a pea and chewed it.  The Abbot told him "when you are among angels, you can eat like an angel, but when among men you will eat like a man."

The devil never eats meat.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2011, 08:28:11 AM »

I have broken fast twice this Lent, once when I went to someone's house and once when someone brought food into mine. In both instances the people would have been incredibly offended if I abstained, and in these instances I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2011, 09:31:02 AM »

...the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety.

And what would those be - I mean, the ones that taste very close to hamburgers? (Katherine asks hopefully)
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:35 AM »

I have broken fast twice this Lent, once when I went to someone's house and once when someone brought food into mine. In both instances the people would have been incredibly offended if I abstained, and in these instances I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.

My brother, you could not have said it better.  If I wanted to go around worrying about what was in the meal that I was eating, I would have become a Jew.  What has bothered me the most since my conversion to the Orthodox Church 16 years ago is that every lent I can find all kinds of threads on various sites about fasting.  All I hear in Church is people talk about fasting.  The sermons are about fasting.  If only I heard more about how to increase prayer, or where I could give alms that would actually help someone in need.  I would much rather attend two or three more services a week worshiping God than run around reading every label worrying that I may have eaten something with meat in it, or perhaps a bit of egg.  For some reason, the first chapter of Isaiah always comes to mind during this time of year.  I am not saying that one should avoid fasting.  However, during this time that our minds should be upon our own sins, and as we should be contemplating the horror of what happened on Holy Friday so many years ago, the ultimate injustice of the God who gave us life giving up His own life so that we may have life eternal, we are worried about what we should do if a friend puts real food before us.  But then again, perhaps I am too burdened down with sin and cannot see the true light.  If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:52 AM »

...I remind myself that a converting to Orthodoxy is a conversion to Christ, not a conversion into a legalistic a-hole.

LOL!

Amen, brother! Grin
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 09:36:17 AM »

If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.

And again I say, Amin!

 Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 11:50:27 AM »

...the ones that taste very close to hamburgers even though they contain no meat at all. And they have vegi hot dogs which when grilled and put in a bun with mustard, onions  and relish, are almost indistinguishable from the meat variety.

And what would those be - I mean, the ones that taste very close to hamburgers? (Katherine asks hopefully)
Boca vegan burgers come VERY CLOSE. Put them on the grill with some veggie kebabs and they get a good smoky taste. If you want chicken nuggets, I still think that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Boca nuggets and patties and actual chicken. (Okay, maybe I would, but they still taste very very close....MorningStar's are not so great.)


Agabus: Legalistic a-hole! I love it!

My husband and I have a rule that we don't tell each other about what the other one ate during the day. Rarely, we are in situations where we have to break our fast (with others offering us food, as others mentioned) and sometimes we eat something that has milk or eggs as the 5th ingredient. We don't want to get all judgmental, so it's "don't ask, don't tell."
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2011, 12:30:02 PM »

Veggie chicken nuggets?  Veggie hotdogs?  I was unaware the "non-veggie" varieties of these food had real meat in them to begin with! 
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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2011, 12:47:14 PM »

If only I were so holy that all I had to worry about is whether or not my humus contained olive oil, or if some beef stock in my soup would make me unclean.

And again I say, Amin!

 Smiley
Amin! Amin! Amin!
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2011, 01:06:50 PM »

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.
So we're now to start confessing our sins to you?
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« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2011, 01:33:16 PM »

Ya'll got the story wrong about the two monks that were fasting who visited a monastery and broke their fast.

In essence it is correct: two monks visited a monastery, and chose to break their fast when food was offered to them rather than offend the brotherhood. But what is not mentioned (this is hinted at when the disciple goes to drink water) is that back then, fasting meant eating or drinking absolutely nothing. Breaking the fast would mean having a few dry pieces of bread, some figs, boiled weeds at most, and water. So, unless you are fasting like St. Zosima and momma offers you salted crackers, don't use that example.

Otherwise, do whatever you can. Certainly eating meat in Great Lent is absolutely never permissible.

Why shouldn't I use the example?   It's an example of breaking a "fast".  Are there various degrees of breaking a fast?  

I'm not a theologian, and am not as well versed in the Church Fathers and other writings and am truly curious.  When it comes to "sin", all sin is sin.  Therefore, is lying a greater sin than stealing?  Is breaking the fast by eating bread (when as a monk you are not to) worse than the layperson eating meat?

"IF" I am allowed to quote St. Basil...

"What is the use of our abstinence, if instead of eating meat we devour our brother or sister with cruel gossip?"  

It is better to eat meat, and at the same time to be kind and humble, than to eat nothing and not show love to our neighbor.

Is this not an example that there are things more important to fasting than abstaining from eating meat?

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« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2011, 03:17:11 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
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« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »

Well into the '90s we could only afford to eat meat once a week, on Sundays.
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« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2011, 03:48:18 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.
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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »

It is better to eat meat, and at the same time to be kind and humble, than to eat nothing and not show love to our neighbor.

Is this not an example that there are things more important to fasting than abstaining from eating meat?


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But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone.

In the Lenten services we are constantly reminded that a fast pleasing to God is one in which we abstain from sin and apply ourselves to the love of God and neighbor.  We are instructed to keep the fast also by abstaining from certain foods and reducing our intake for the sake of prayer and almsgiving.  We constantly hear that it is useless to fast bodily from certain foods if we do not fast also from the passions, and yet the fact that we give into the passions while fasting bodily does not give us an excuse to relax our bodily fasting.  Rather, as the Lord said above to the Pharisee, both are needed, bodily fasting and love of God and neighbor.  We must love God by following his commandments, including the fasting requirements of the Church, and love our neighbor by caring for the needy and acting in a Christ-like manner towards all who we encounter.  Any discussion of “which is better” should only help us see that bodily fasting is a means to an end and not an end in itself, it is to help us overcome the passions and be more loving towards God and neighbor and is not a license to curse God and neighbor or disregard God and neighbor.  To speak of “which is better” should in no way cause us to cast aside what is lesser under the guise that we are doing what is better instead.  Such a path is foolish and we will find in doing so that in discarding the lesser we also cut ourselves off from the better, since the two are inseparable. 
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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.


Wow, you really take this forum business quite seriously I see. Got a life? Get one. Here's how: Get off of your computer, go outside, breath some of that good ol' fresh air. and above all Lighten up.

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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.
I second that.

The devil never eats meat. And, btw, according to Genesis it seems that the generation that was so evil that God destroyed them by the flood never ate meat either.
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2011, 04:40:10 PM »

Well into the '90s we could only afford to eat meat once a week, on Sundays.
Ah, the good old days of Ceaucescu, and patrioti (chicken feet).
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 04:59:19 PM »

in other words, the chickens were given to the soviet union to pay the debt and all the ordinary people could buy were chicken feet. lent, easter and all year round. even then, romania wasn't the poorest country in europe, so, if you don't eat meat, it's really unlikely you will die.
fasting from food actually helps to strengthen your self-control, which helps you also abstain from sin. unless you are fasting in order to show off, then it doesn't help.
may God give us much mercy as we repent and turn to Him, and please pray for me too, a sinner.
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 05:04:57 PM »

I think ya'll are freaking out cause ya'll are a bunch of fanatical modernists that just want to dig into your bacon double cheeseburger asap.  Grin

 Ok, seriously now: have you guys considered that before the 1900s in Orthodox countries only the rich could afford to eat meat? This probably went for folks in Western Europe to. There are obvious exceptions to the rule. Bottom line is that, you won't die if you don't eat meat. In fact, doctors urge people to consume less meat as it is so unhealthy. Pregnant women, little children, the elderly, etc. don't need to "eat meat" to stay healthy. If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.
That's not my point, though. I don't have an argument with the wisdom of not eating meat for a time. What I criticize is your absolute certitude in stating that we are absolutely forbidden to eat meat during Lent. You're not God, and, AFAIK, you're neither a bishop nor a priest. So what gives you the authority to speak in such absolutes?

BTW, I also question your authority to give such potentially dangerous medical advice.


Wow, you really take this forum business quite seriously I see. Got a life? Get one. Here's how: Get off of your computer, go outside, breath some of that good ol' fresh air. and above all Lighten up.
A hint for ya: You don't know me as well as you think you do.

Do note also that this is the Convert Issues board. This thread was started by a potential convert who's new to the Church and to our Orthopraxis, so I think it wise to keep this thread somewhat serious and give her the advice she seeks. Such absolutes as you like to deal in can be very dangerous to the soul of such a newbie.
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 05:14:24 PM »

One of my favorite stories:

One day St. Epiphanius sent someone to Abba Hilarion with this request, "Come, and let us see one another before we depart from the body." When he came, they rejoiced in each other's company. During their meal, they were brought a fowl. Epiphanius took it and gave it to Hilarion. Then Abba Hilarion said to him, "Forgive me, but since I received the habit I have not eaten meat that has been killed." Then the bishop answered, "Since I took the habit, I have not allowed anyone to go to sleep with a complaint against me, and I have not gone to rest with a complaint against anyone." The old man replied, "Forgive me, your way of life is better than mine."
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2011, 05:20:24 PM »

One of my favorite stories:

One day St. Epiphanius sent someone to Abba Hilarion with this request, "Come, and let us see one another before we depart from the body." When he came, they rejoiced in each other's company. During their meal, they were brought a fowl. Epiphanius took it and gave it to Hilarion. Then Abba Hilarion said to him, "Forgive me, but since I received the habit I have not eaten meat that has been killed." Then the bishop answered, "Since I took the habit, I have not allowed anyone to go to sleep with a complaint against me, and I have not gone to rest with a complaint against anyone." The old man replied, "Forgive me, your way of life is better than mine."

Love that one, it's been on my mind the entire thread.
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2011, 12:02:21 AM »

This thread is a wonderful example of false dichotomies.

You can truly not have your cake and not complain about it too.
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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2011, 09:38:48 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2011, 10:25:02 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2011, 10:33:36 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
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« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2011, 10:49:46 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.
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« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2011, 10:57:33 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.

That's because the Orthodox Church isn't scholastic, with "one size fits all." We have the one rule of akrivia, and the principle of economia that, with spiritual guideance and pastoring, adapts the strict, theoretlcal standard to the actual needs.
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« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2011, 11:48:01 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)


Of course, and so perhaps that would indicated that we can infer that fish, dairy and eggs are more acceptable than meat to eat during Lent. But the fasting guidelines don't say that.

That's because the Orthodox Church isn't scholastic, with "one size fits all." We have the one rule of akrivia, and the principle of economia that, with spiritual guideance and pastoring, adapts the strict, theoretlcal standard to the actual needs.

Yes, which I also understand, and believe that I alluded to in my post. But that would be according to one's individual circumstances under the guidance of one's priest or spiritual father - but not the fasting guidelines, which say nothing, AFAIK, about fish, dairy, eggs etc. being more acceptable to eat during Lent than meat. This is the point that I find puzzling - meat is absolutely forbidden but fish and dairy are ok.
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« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
Just to make it clear: for that reason a can of tuna is far more to the intention of fasting than lobster tail. I only mentioned what the real problem was to put it in context. And it wasn't just 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean: in colonial New England they ground lobsters into fertilizer, servants went on strike when forced to eat it, and indentured servants had it in their contracts that they wouldn't have to eat it more than twice a week.
Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

It wasn't until the twentieth century, especially the 50's that it became a luxury.  In Louisana, crawfish were the diet of the poverty stricken Cajuns, until us "americains" (Cajun for Yankees) developed a taste for them (the crawfish that is).
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« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2011, 03:55:31 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

If one needs something during the fast, one can eat fish. Or some milk, cheese, or eggs, but never meat.

This has always puzzled me and I've encountered it more than once -perhaps someone can help? Don't the fasting guidelines say we are to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, fish, oil? That would seem to me to mean exactly that - none of the above, with nothing any more "permitted" or "forbidden" than any other. So how come it's ok to eat fish, or milk or cheese or eggs (unless under the guidance of your priest or spiritual father, of course), but not meat? Is there a canon or something that says meat is the biggest "no-no" but you can sneak a little fish, cheese, eggs or oil in there without any problem?
Well, there is the distinction between Meat Fare and Cheese Fare weeks, and that Fish is allowed on certain days (Annunciation, Palm Sunday)

The real issue is that meat costs more, and thus cuts down in alms.

Perhaps 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean, but I can get a pound of ground beef for $2.99 while a pound of tilapia will run me twice that. 

Don't get me started on the price of shellfish, which are okay all throughout fasting periods.  And I live in a port town known for its crabs.
Just to make it clear: for that reason a can of tuna is far more to the intention of fasting than lobster tail. I only mentioned what the real problem was to put it in context. And it wasn't just 1500 years ago in the Mediterranean: in colonial New England they ground lobsters into fertilizer, servants went on strike when forced to eat it, and indentured servants had it in their contracts that they wouldn't have to eat it more than twice a week.
Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

It wasn't until the twentieth century, especially the 50's that it became a luxury.  In Louisana, crawfish were the diet of the poverty stricken Cajuns, until us "americains" (Cajun for Yankees) developed a taste for them (the crawfish that is).
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« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2011, 04:01:02 PM »

Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

I still consider it at bottom feeding trash fish ("Marine Cockroach" is my favorite nickname for it) and I certainly won't be caught dead eating it.  Blech.

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.

I normally just tell people I'm allergic to shellfish.  It may not be a physical allergy, but it's certainly an intellectual one!
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« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2011, 04:44:38 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

Ewwwwww..... Tongue
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« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2011, 05:16:35 PM »

Which is why I can see no problem with eating coon and possum during the fast.

Ewwwwww..... Tongue

I guess that you would really have a problem with fried rattlesnake.
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« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2011, 05:19:59 PM »

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.
You have to STOMACH fried clams! Blasphemy! They are absolutely delicious.
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« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »

Quote
A study of the cost of seafood on more than 200,000 American restaurant menus has revealed fluctuating prices that reflect the changing abundance of dozens of species over the past 150 years. The records show how the price, adjusted for inflation, of fish and shellfish, including lobster, swordfish, oysters, halibut, haddock and sole, has climbed as stocks have collapsed. Lobster, for example, fetched little more than a couple of dollars a lb in the 1850s. “Prior to the 1880s, it was unusual to see lobster on menus at all except in bargain-priced lobster salad,” said Glenn Jones, of Texas A&M University, who led the research. “It was considered a trash fish — it was not something you’d want to be seen eating...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article581926.ece

I still consider it at bottom feeding trash fish ("Marine Cockroach" is my favorite nickname for it) and I certainly won't be caught dead eating it.  Blech.
One of our names in Arabis is "Sea Fleas."

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.

I normally just tell people I'm allergic to shellfish.  It may not be a physical allergy, but it's certainly an intellectual one!
I'm allergic to scallops: I had some in a dish my Korean sistere in law made. I've never been in such pain before.
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« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2011, 07:09:47 PM »

Same goes for all other shellfish with the exception of a good Chinese stirfy along with scallops in a garlic sauce.  I've also been known to stomach fried clams, but it's been a while.
You have to STOMACH fried clams! Blasphemy! They are absolutely delicious.

Well, I've discovered if you fry anything, I'll most likely eat it.

Fried clams are good when fried with a tasty breading and with appropriate dipping sauce.  In short, they're just a bit of protein added to a bread/sauce meal Wink
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« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2011, 02:32:20 AM »

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

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« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2011, 02:49:06 AM »

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 
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« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2011, 12:26:30 AM »


Oh, good grief.  Someone was sarcastic.  I was sarcastic back.  A good time was had by all.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Maybe watch a documentary on TV or eat some fruit or something.  No one in this thread is going to hell over what was discussed.  We had some fun with the subject matter.  You guys are party-poopers, end of story. 
Geez....no one can have any fun anymore without someone else taking the prideful, higher "intellectual ground" and then making sure that everyone else knows how intellectual they are.  We get it okay.  Get over the fact that some of us have a lower form of humour and not everything you say is "gospel" to us, okay?Huh?  Also, not everything is subject to an intellectual debate over who is smarter than whom or who is more "original" than whom.  You people really need to lighten up and understand that the world is bigger than your hefty, telephone book sized bible.


"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 
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« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2011, 12:56:34 AM »

Oh, good grief.  Someone was sarcastic.  I was sarcastic back.  A good time was had by all.  Lighten up and have some fun.  Maybe watch a documentary on TV or eat some fruit or something.  No one in this thread is going to hell over what was discussed.  We had some fun with the subject matter.  You guys are party-poopers, end of story. 
Geez....no one can have any fun anymore without someone else taking the prideful, higher "intellectual ground" and then making sure that everyone else knows how intellectual they are.  We get it okay.  Get over the fact that some of us have a lower form of humour and not everything you say is "gospel" to us, okay?Huh?  Also, not everything is subject to an intellectual debate over who is smarter than whom or who is more "original" than whom.  You people really need to lighten up and understand that the world is bigger than your hefty, telephone book sized bible.


"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".  -Winston Churchill

My life will never be the same.

"Quoting uninteresting, irrelevant quips of others' is the lowest form of criticism." - Me

It wasn't sarcasm anyhow. It was irony.

But I agree that probably convert threads should be free of irony, since it might be lost on some and taken to heart. Too bad it is often lost on non-converts though.

 

orthonorm, are you taking notes? Soak the wisdom into your catechumen brain. Review these posts when you depart during the liturgy of the faithful.
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Justin Kissel
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2011, 01:46:21 AM »

I like raspberries and strawberries best, how about yinz guys?
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Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
stewie
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« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2011, 11:12:02 AM »

I don't know about everyone here, but I have never been able to properly keep a strict fast.  Both my wife and I come from Orthodox families, but 99% of our families do not observe the fast in any way (apart from maybe Fridays during Lent).  I'm usually able to abstain from meat, but find it too hard to be a pure vegan for the length of the fast... both because I am weak, and because I am at a business dinner or traveling 2-3x a week and don't want to call attention to myself, so I eat what is served.

This year I have tried to be a bit more strict with the fast, particularly during these business trips and dinners out.  I have found that the spiritual benefits are less than I had expected.  In fact, on several occasions I have called attention to myself as I requested an alternate meal from a special menu, or refused what was served to me.  During one particularly awkward business lunch an entire table waited for 15 minutes in front of their increasingly cold salmon lunches so that the waiter could bring out my special veggie meal.  This is counterproductive.

Next year I am going to be a lot more flexible with myself as far as the menu goes.  In addition to fasting, I'm getting up a half hour earlier to pray and trying to make it to more services and receive communion more frequently.  It has been a very busy time for me both professionally and personally, but I have made it work.  And frankly, if I am getting any benefits from this fasting period it is coming from increased time speaking with God and reading the scriptures, and less from not eating hamburgers and steak.  I'm not saying that fasting has no benefits, but one has to keep it in proper perspective.  It should rank well behind prayer and almsgiving.

I think Punch hit the nail on the head in his excellent post on the last page. 
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thetraditionalfrog
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« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2011, 05:00:11 AM »

Due to circumstances in my life, I have had to move back in with my parents. My parents are Roman Catholic, so thankfully, the concept of fasting isn't foreign to them. Whilst they understand, they of course follow Roman Catholic custom, which since Vatican II resembles nothing close to Orthodox. Current Roman custom is abstain from meat on Fridays during lent, fast/abstain on Ash Wednesday & Good Friday. Technically according to their canons Catholics are still supposed to abstain from meat on all Fridays, but most local ordinaries have allowed them to substitute "alternative acts of penance". In general practice, this equates to sadly doing nothing.

Anyway, most of the time my parents don't get in the way of my fasting as we eat all meals besides dinner at different times. For dinner, I usually prepare something simple and try to work it so I can partake of at least some of what mom prepared (veg, potato, salad, fruit, etc). Sometimes I simply omit the meat and partake of the rest. That is how things work in my situation. Thankfully!

Now, if I end up unexpectedly at a meal at someone's home, like the monks in the story I typically exercise charity.  I sit down, ask the Lord's blessing, and partake. Afterwards, I thank the Lord and the host. During the time I say nothing about the fast.  I do however pass on seconds, and dessert if I can do so charitably. If I have to partake of dessert or the hosts insists I try her new (....), I will graciously partake of a small amount. If I am asked if I'd like more, I decline, or ask if I could have a small amount to take home. At home I either freeze, store, or dispose of it. No need to make a scene or come across as "holier than thou".

For parties (birthday or Western Christmas), I usually stay just long enough to be polite... If offered a drink, I'll ask for a soda or juice. I try to avoid food, but if it's insisted I try something, I am gracious and do so, but only one or a small amount. Same thing if I have to go to a friend or relatives birthday party or dinner.

For me fasting is like our Lord said... something that is private, between Him and I. It isn't a legalistic straight jacket, but a spiritual tool. True fasting isn't so much what goes in, but comes out, how it helps us change our lives, and overcome our passions... a path to Theosis. I feel that if I were to make a "to do" about fasting, by refusing food, or being overly picky... "Blah, blah, I am holy, I am Orthodox, I am fasting, blah, blah". Then I've completely missed the point, and the fasting empty and availeth me not. I can just hear our Lord say "You might as well have not even bothered...".

Am I perfect, far from it. Have I kept the fast this Lent, inwardly as well as out? Not even close. But in the end as St John Chrysostom tells us from across the ages every Pascha..." those who have kept the fast, and those who have not kept the fast, come to the Feast!"


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“For the honorable Cross and golden freedom!” -Sv Lazar

 “Give up everything for Christ, but Christ for nothing!” -Sv Sava
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