Author Topic: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed  (Read 419 times)

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Offline MichaelArchangelos

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After an individual dies and experiences the particular judgement, is it possible for their eternal destiny to be changed from hell to heaven by the prayers of friends and family? For example, if a Muslim man died and was condemned to hell as the particular judgement, but then his son became Orthodox and prayed for his soul, is it possible for his destiny to be changed enough that at the Last Judgement he is welcomed into the Kingdom of God as one of the saved?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 03:16:48 AM by MichaelArchangelos »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 03:33:47 AM »
Yes. People can still repent after they die up to the Last Judgement. Prayers for them will help, but the actual person has to also repent (have a change of mind and be transformed by God). The Church believes that this is only available for those who did not have a chance to become Orthodox in this life, who died at birth, who were abused, who were crippled, who did not know about The Faith, etc. Otherwise, The Church believes that if you want to get saved NOW and have the opportunity, then there is no salvation outside The Church. Even those who repent after death, will still have to become Orthodox in order to be considered saved (healed and transformed).

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 12:39:13 PM »
Yes. People can still repent after they die up to the Last Judgement. Prayers for them will help, but the actual person has to also repent (have a change of mind and be transformed by God). The Church believes that this is only available for those who did not have a chance to become Orthodox in this life, who died at birth, who were abused, who were crippled, who did not know about The Faith, etc. Otherwise, The Church believes that if you want to get saved NOW and have the opportunity, then there is no salvation outside The Church. Even those who repent after death, will still have to become Orthodox in order to be considered saved (healed and transformed).

This is not the Orthodox teaching, that people can repent after death. Repentance is not possible after death, but prayers and alms and liturgical service--the work of the Church can make the state of departed souls better and even deliver people from suffering. Please site your sources on people becoming Orthodox after death. People say this, and do not back it up with authority.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 01:52:13 PM »
Yes. People can still repent after they die up to the Last Judgement. Prayers for them will help, but the actual person has to also repent (have a change of mind and be transformed by God). The Church believes that this is only available for those who did not have a chance to become Orthodox in this life, who died at birth, who were abused, who were crippled, who did not know about The Faith, etc. Otherwise, The Church believes that if you want to get saved NOW and have the opportunity, then there is no salvation outside The Church. Even those who repent after death, will still have to become Orthodox in order to be considered saved (healed and transformed).

This is not the Orthodox teaching, that people can repent after death. Repentance is not possible after death, but prayers and alms and liturgical service--the work of the Church can make the state of departed souls better and even deliver people from suffering. Please site your sources on people becoming Orthodox after death. People say this, and do not back it up with authority.

Yes it is Orthodox teaching. How do people who could not become Orthodox in this life, or died at birth, as children, were crippled, etc., be saved?

Offline biro

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 03:29:30 PM »
IoanC, that's an interesting question. In 2 Maccabees it says, "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead." I just trust Almighty God is very kind and merciful. I am not sure how these things happen, but I believe He has the power to forgive. That's all I know.  :angel:

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 06:18:29 PM »
Yes. People can still repent after they die up to the Last Judgement. Prayers for them will help, but the actual person has to also repent (have a change of mind and be transformed by God). The Church believes that this is only available for those who did not have a chance to become Orthodox in this life, who died at birth, who were abused, who were crippled, who did not know about The Faith, etc. Otherwise, The Church believes that if you want to get saved NOW and have the opportunity, then there is no salvation outside The Church. Even those who repent after death, will still have to become Orthodox in order to be considered saved (healed and transformed).

This is not the Orthodox teaching, that people can repent after death. Repentance is not possible after death, but prayers and alms and liturgical service--the work of the Church can make the state of departed souls better and even deliver people from suffering. Please site your sources on people becoming Orthodox after death. People say this, and do not back it up with authority.

Yes it is Orthodox teaching. How do people who could not become Orthodox in this life, or died at birth, as children, were crippled, etc., be saved?

You have not supplied any patristic teaching to back up this claim. Also, you make the assumption that, to be saved, one has to be Orthodox, and then follow that assumption to assume that people become Orthodox after death. I have not heard this opinion from the Fathers.
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Offline Delphine

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 09:04:13 PM »
You have not supplied any patristic teaching to back up this claim. Also, you make the assumption that, to be saved, one has to be Orthodox, and then follow that assumption to assume that people become Orthodox after death. I have not heard this opinion from the Fathers.

If a non-Orthodox is saved, wouldn't they be Orthodox in their understanding after death? I don't see how someone could, for example, remain blissfully Hindu at that point.

Offline IoanC

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2012, 12:40:32 AM »
You have not supplied any patristic teaching to back up this claim. Also, you make the assumption that, to be saved, one has to be Orthodox, and then follow that assumption to assume that people become Orthodox after death. I have not heard this opinion from the Fathers.

If a non-Orthodox is saved, wouldn't they be Orthodox in their understanding after death? I don't see how someone could, for example, remain blissfully Hindu at that point.

That's exactly what I mean. Orthodoxy is the only way of life; it is life, human nature, actually.

Offline IoanC

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Re: Particular judgement and Last Judgement - praying for the departed
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 12:46:37 AM »
This all hinges on what you understand by repentance. If you understand it strictly to mean feeling sorry for sins in order that you do not go to Hell, then that's not orthodox teaching.

Orthodox teaching about repentance has to do with "metanoia", with changing one's mind and being transformed. It's altogether different than escaping damnation by confessing/feeling sorry for your sins. You can indeed not commit a sin, and still have to have a change of mind and be transformed (grow) by God. This is what people who have not repented in this life will have to accomplish in the next. There is a long list of people who cannot be saved in this life and the only way for them is to freely choose God after they die (who knows, maybe some will even reject God after they die).

So this has to do with human freedom also. You cannot simply be saved in the next life because of the fact that you confessed sins in this life. You cannot escape actual change and growth that is required to enter God's Kingdom. This change has to come from the person out of free-will, it cannot be replaced by some sort of artificial mechanism (like say the prayers of others -- which help, but only help).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 12:52:11 AM by IoanC »