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Author Topic: deaing with sexual tension, as an Orthodox Christian  (Read 8563 times) Average Rating: 5
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John of the North
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
In those days, 14 was middle aged. For all that, I see a lot about women getting married at that age, men, not so much.

Not really. Such numbers are skewed by including infant/toddler mortality which brings down the numbers. If you survived to 5, you had a good chance of seeing 60.
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
In those days, 14 was middle aged. For all that, I see a lot about women getting married at that age, men, not so much.

Not really. Such numbers are skewed by including infant/toddler mortality which brings down the numbers. If you survived to 5, you had a good chance of seeing 60.

And getting married at 15 made it seem like 352.
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2011, 05:53:32 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.

im talking about acting out the lust

So am I.

Duct tape can be sexy, if somewhat uncomfortable.
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2011, 05:57:05 PM »

The theory that we marry too late, and that this is one reason why masturbation and fornication are much stronger temptations now than in earlier generations, is supported by the Fathers, I think. St Nicodemus of the Mountain quotes St John Chrysostom to this effect, I seem to recall (in the Exomologetarion), or it may have been some other Father. Anyway, he says parents should not neglect to provide their young men with spouses as early as possible, in order for their sons not to fall into sin. This interestingly presupposes that marriages were arranged by parents (so no courting or dating), and since puberty or shortly after puberty was considered the ideal time for marriage for both sexes, it presupposes that a married couple has a reasonable hope of success even at an age which in modern society would be considered impractically early.

Hence it looks to me as if a good deal of the extra burden on modern young people comes from parental negligence: if you're left to search for future spouses on your own, for example, you more or less have to take your cues from secular society on how to go about attracting potential mates, and usually this involves going beyond the bounds of propriety in relations between the sexes; and if your parents or extended family (assuming you have one) do not provide necessary financial support for an early marriage, the young man or woman must wait until he or she can be financially independent, which requires landing a job that pays well enough to support both oneself and one's children, which typically requires a long and expensive education, rendering the parents even less able to provide nest eggs, etc. Even then we're leaving aside the question of whether one or both spouses work.

Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.

At the same time, surely there are other factors affecting the severity of these temptations. For instance, the fact that they are now generally accepted as normal behavior in secular society. Even if your child avoids being indoctrinated with sexual permissiveness in public school, he or she will still be confronted with it everywhere as he or she grows up, through all media. So in addition to the pressure of one's natural urges, there is the pressure of conforming to wider society. In a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful, it would presumably be that much easier to resist the natural urges. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if society's current permissiveness is related to the financial and social impracticalities of early marriage, and I expect both phenomena reinforce each other.
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2011, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2011, 06:26:44 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


You seem to have missed the part about no courting or dating. If marriages are arranged by parents, then there is no reason for men and women to try to attract or pursue each other outside of marriage, and hence it makes sense to maintain a strict segregation of the sexes that was normal in early Christian times and which the Fathers assume to be normal. Why do even Orthodox women today wear make-up and jewelery and revealing clothes? In order to attract men, of course. If they followed the traditions of the Fathers, on the other hand, they would cover themselves and dress modestly. Of course, the result would be that they would not be so successful in attracting men, a result which is highly desirable from the point of view of preserving chastity, but not desirable if women have no other way to find a mate.

Now, this strictly segregated culture seems to have been normal for Byzantine times and also for the Greeks under Turkish rule (since the Moslems have similarly strict codes), and also I believe for pre-Petrine Russia. But I agree that in Russia after Westernization began under Tsar Peter, Western courtship customs began to be introduced. Of course, by todays standards they were still very proper and modest, but you did start to have this notion that young men are responsible for pursuing potential mates, and that they can't simply leave it up to their parents. The necessity of courtship results in an unavoidable tension between the strict demands of Christian modesty and the practical demands of finding a suitable spouse for the vast majority of us who are not intent on monasticism.
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2011, 06:41:02 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


And back down to earth we come.
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2011, 07:50:38 PM »



Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.


interesting that you say this.  at school, they never talk about marriage.  they just tell us to wait to have sex until after we have jobs.  they also have given us quizzes on choosing our future "life mate".
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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


And back down to earth we come.

Indeed!!  With a heck of a bump!
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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

As a female (hey, we struggle with this problem too...at certain times!) who has known male Christian friends who have shared their problems with her (please don't ask why; I don't know), exercise WORKS. It's great. I run outside for 30 minutes to an hour and I am thoroughly exhausted when I get back.

(Unfortunately I indulge thoughts while exercising, so you still have to guard your mind as much as you can.) The guys I talked to exercised as well, and they said it was the best solution for the moment, in addition to praying and just making sure that they aren't idle.

I am wondering why no one suggested a cold shower?  Huh Joking.

Just keep praying....God knows we will be tempted with this for the rest of our lives. Marriage doesn't quite solve all those issues so neatly either. We still deal with the issues we had when we were younger. God knows I am still struggling with them right now.

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« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.

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« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2011, 10:13:57 PM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.
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« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2011, 10:21:39 PM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

Then we wonder how our society produces people like Jeffery Domer..

Look............. Just do it and then don't tell anyone. Works for 99% of the male population.  Undecided
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« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2011, 11:44:02 PM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?
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« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2011, 01:07:13 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?

“Lord, Make me chaste, but not yet” - Blessed Augustine
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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2011, 08:26:29 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?

“Lord, Make me chaste, but not yet” - Blessed Augustine

 Wink
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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2011, 09:19:17 AM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.

This is one of the most memorable quotes (for me, at least) from the Ladder.  Thank you for posting it, George.
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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2011, 10:52:02 AM »

This is a serious issue on many levels that crosses the boarders of the "peer pressure", "understanding", "modern thinking", and "neglect from parents".  

I'll break it down as best as I can.  I take it most people in this thread are males, so I can't speak for females.

Problem:
You know how tough it was between 13-18.  LOL.  The thoughts were almost constant and almost uncontrollable.  It was a strange and confusing time basically stuck in a paradigm of "being a kid to society", when in reality 300 years ago we'd have no problem surviving on our own if we had proper instruction on living, planting, animals, and surviving.  Instead most of us were in classrooms with our minds nearly restless.  Most of us were highly independent and felt trapped in our lives because we were still at our parents home with no opportunities (because 18 is the magic adult age) for real work.

The way that God made us was at those ages to be extremely fertile and ready to start life with a female in Holy Matrimony.  Like I said in a previous post, the virgin Mary is highly speculated to be around 14-15 when she gave birth to our God and savior.  But to think of anybody in the USA getting married at 14-15 is seriously considered horrendous.  People would be all over that calling it "child abuse".  Many states even have laws stating "nobody under 16-17" depending on the state will be granted a "marriage license".

School systems suppress life experience of the young ones and fill their minds with stories such as "The Raven" (murder), "Romeo & Juliet" (teen suicide), and Beowulf (sorcery & witchcraft), (side note: and don't allow prayer) and basically tell young adults that they graduate around 18 years old.

The government who is funded by us, funds the school system.  18 again is the "magic age" to be an adult.  Barely any jobs under 18 pay anything and it basically suppresses young adults from starting their lives.

I guess my point is, just because WE have always seen things this way or that way, doesn't mean it's right.  

Parents also neglect life lessons to their children and they are virtually unprepared at 18 to face the world.  Why?  The school system raised them.

Now days, 25 seems too young to marry.  
So people fall into all kinds of sins.  (Let's face it monks make up a teeny weeny fraction of the world's population).
For most people the influence is too strong.

Couple that with a moral disaster that comes through the T.V., radio, and internet, and we have a problem Houston.



The Orthodox Solution:
As anything Orthodox, keep it old.  14-15 was a great age to get married (and no it was not always a 50 year old man marrying a 14 year old girl - stop watching Fiddler on the Roof).  Nothing morally wrong with it.  The God & the church endorsed it completely.  The young adults "grew together" rather than becoming set in their ways then getting married later on for complications and over a 50% divorce rate (not including shack ups).

The young man enjoyed "the beauty of her youth" as the song of songs states.  The young woman had a healthy young male to "get the farm started & home".   All sexual tension could be relieved without problem.  The young woman was in fantastic child bearing years (16 being the most healthy age medically to have a baby - even modern medicine states this).

Is this practical today - Yes & No.

Yes on a moral & practical ground biologically, no because of suppression.

The World Solution.
1) Masturbate
2) Porn
3) Fornication
4) "party - have fun"
5) Grow older
6) Get money
7) Get set in your ways
Cool Date for 2 years in fornication (possibly move in)
9) Get married
10) Fun for 2 more years, both set in their ways, fight, fight some more, divorce.

But why would we expect more from a moral less society that condemns what God created naturally?  The children of the world are evil.




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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2011, 10:54:24 AM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

Then we wonder how our society produces people like Jeffery Domer..

Look............. Just do it and then don't tell anyone. Works for 99% of the male population.  Undecided

Hey man, you know the rules.

1-3: Don't talk about Night Club!!!
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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:47 PM »



Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.


interesting that you say this.  at school, they never talk about marriage.  they just tell us to wait to have sex until after we have jobs.  they also have given us quizzes on choosing our future "life mate".

Well maybe your school was a little more responsible than mine Wink Still, jobs aren't the benchmark here, marriage is, but then we already know that.  Tongue
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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2011, 10:44:25 PM »

As a female (hey, we struggle with this problem too...at certain times!) who has known male Christian friends who have shared their problems with her (please don't ask why; I don't know), exercise WORKS. It's great. I run outside for 30 minutes to an hour and I am thoroughly exhausted when I get back.

(Unfortunately I indulge thoughts while exercising, so you still have to guard your mind as much as you can.) The guys I talked to exercised as well, and they said it was the best solution for the moment, in addition to praying and just making sure that they aren't idle.

I am wondering why no one suggested a cold shower?  Huh Joking.

Just keep praying....God knows we will be tempted with this for the rest of our lives. Marriage doesn't quite solve all those issues so neatly either. We still deal with the issues we had when we were younger. God knows I am still struggling with them right now.



This makes sense. The Fathers talk about physical labor and toil as cures for passions, which I think we can take to mean exercise in our modern context, where so many of us have sedentary jobs, so that "work" no longer equates with earning bread by the sweat of one's brow. For the Fathers, the primary purpose of toil was not physical fitness, although this was certainly a welcome benefit, but because it wearies the body and hence temptation, in the way fasting wearies the body (if done properly!).

But you importantly noted that prayer is just as, if not more essential. Toil and fasting will only work if we also have prayer: it's not as if vegetarians or athletes are magically immune to the temptations of the flesh.
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« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2011, 10:47:56 PM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.

This is one of the most memorable quotes (for me, at least) from the Ladder.  Thank you for posting it, George.

I second that. Excellent quotation. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 02:11:42 PM »

I have read that psychologists said that people who have relations before their 24th birthday, are less mentally stable, have a lower metabolism, and have a higher rate of nervous breakdowns.
The idea that masturbation and early sexual initiation (before age 24 for women, and 26 for men) are beneficial is an error. It is better not to force oneself into sexual intercourse solely based on current societal norms. That previous sentence is from a psychology textbook from 1900. Society has always promoted unhealthy sex, even during the Victorian era.
I am 22 now and I have not had sex with any woman.
Everything in my pants is okay, but the fact that I have a pair of old sneakers, worn out pants so thus I will not get me any woman. That's the facts of life.   
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 05:49:39 PM »

Fwiw, one thing that I've heard that helps is keeping icons around the area that you're most likely to fall into problems. I guess it can be hard to do when you realise that the Theotokos or Jesus or whoever is looking at you--literally looking at you (the icon is a reminder of an invisible reality).

Buying a 6 ft icon of Christ works wonders.

Gregory of Denver's group sells such icons. I've thought about buying one before, just because it'd make me the super-duper-mostest-pious person in town. On the other hand, for a 6' tall paper/mounted icon they want $1296.00 (plus shipping). A bit out of my price range  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 05:57:00 PM »

I have read that psychologists said that people who have relations before their 24th birthday, are less mentally stable, have a lower metabolism, and have a higher rate of nervous breakdowns.
The idea that masturbation and early sexual initiation (before age 24 for women, and 26 for men) are beneficial is an error. It is better not to force oneself into sexual intercourse solely based on current societal norms. That previous sentence is from a psychology textbook from 1900. Society has always promoted unhealthy sex, even during the Victorian era.
I am 22 now and I have not had sex with any woman.
Everything in my pants is okay, but the fact that I have a pair of old sneakers, worn out pants so thus I will not get me any woman. That's the facts of life.   

 laugh  Well that will teach me to trust my Internet Instincts.  I thought you were closer to my own age than to my son's age...He's older than you are by seven years.  I think you have made much wiser choices than he made at your age and younger.  I think he just might agree with me after all these year...
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2011, 11:57:09 PM »

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2011, 02:00:01 PM »

I am so happy to see you've brought this bit of reality to the discussion.  I debated and debated yesterday whether or not to even raise the issue of physical exertion and increased libido, or increased stress and increased libido, and the fact that fasting is really the only way to effectively suppress that natural urge...but I decided against it and am now very glad that I held off!!

Great post!

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").
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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2011, 05:08:23 PM »

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment at all, but hey, exercise has worked for me and others. Fasting makes a lot of sense, but keeping busy and making sure that I'm not idle helps me, probably because I'm not in a position to relieve it...
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2011, 05:16:51 PM »

I have to say, orthonorm's post is a home run.  I know I never found "keeping busy" to be enough of a distraction. 

Hardcore fasting, however, has always worked.  I just wish I was more of a mind to do it more.

Fasting, that is.  Not the other thing. Wink
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2011, 08:28:05 PM »

I am so happy to see you've brought this bit of reality to the discussion.  I debated and debated yesterday whether or not to even raise the issue of physical exertion and increased libido, or increased stress and increased libido, and the fact that fasting is really the only way to effectively suppress that natural urge...but I decided against it and am now very glad that I held off!!

Great post!

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").

It's not just the diminished calories but it's also the lack of meat. A diet high in meat will increase libido.
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2011, 03:48:09 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2011, 04:02:45 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2011, 05:01:44 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone

As has eggs, citrus fruits (and others), dark green vegetables, etc.
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« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2011, 05:08:07 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.

If Orthodox Christian men are fasting from meat during Great Lent, then why do so many males get so angry during Lent?
Sheesh! Even my non-Orthodox neighbors are heard screaming profanities during this time of year. What gives?
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2011, 09:21:18 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com
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« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2011, 01:39:48 AM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2011, 02:05:10 AM »

The links with test and diet are just that links. Minimal relation. Looks at the studies. Like with most nutrition stuff they get blown out of proportion by the shysters looking to make money or a name off the hoi polloi.

Get diagnoses with low test by a real docs. They ain't going to prescribe ribeyes.

Was pretty much a vegan for a long time. Gained a ton of lean mass and had a libido as high or higher than most.

What kills libido and test is age and extreme stress, age being a form of stress.

Now if you what to turn this thread into how increase test with over the counter and "nebulously" legal substances or illegal we can.

Good diet with tons of calories, low stress, tons of sleep, youth, extremely short resistance work that creates a hormonal cascade is the SOP if you want to go the "natural" route.

So little to no family commitments, easy job, little social life, cause getting that 10-12 hour sleep per day to recover from the infrequent and extreme difficult lifting cut into one's life a lot. And you feel like you've been beaten by a few guys about 5/7ths of your time awake.

Had to put on a bunch of weight for a few years and gained 80 of within about a year and my test jumped and had some of the signs of PED use. After six months at the "serious" gym I was at, I was approached more than once about what stack I was using. Since I was there just twice or so a week and had large gains.

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural and he followed a similar SOP with a lot more time in the gym working out the technical aspects of the lifts not really "working out".

Oh yeah, that all happened with nary an animal product on my part.

My brother switched up to BBing for a while and garbage eating and lifting then periods of ketosis were the order of the day. His test was high eating garbage (all the stuff Marc thinks will kill you, like a potato) and his test would drop when eating like Marc believes everyone should but probably doesn't even do himself: paleothlic, read pseudo to full ketosis.

Now, hitting middle age and your libido is dipping and you've been living off junk food for a decade and doing nill physically, then eating any diet which is healthier and engaging in some physical activity is probably going to increase libido and maybe test (two ain't necessarily related, chemical and physical castration isn't effective with some humans and some animals). Whether that diet is "vegan", "paleo", or whatever.

Again, want to kill your libido: extreme and chronic stress. Starving, sleep dep, depression, etc.







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« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2011, 02:07:07 AM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.

If Orthodox Christian men are fasting from meat during Great Lent, then why do so many males get so angry during Lent?
Sheesh! Even my non-Orthodox neighbors are heard screaming profanities during this time of year. What gives?

Change of season. Spring gets people sprung. Winter blues fall away to Spring scarlet fever.
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« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2011, 02:12:43 AM »

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural

Didn't know such a creature existed. Good on him.
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« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2011, 02:31:21 AM »

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural

Didn't know such a creature existed. Good on him.

Oh yeah. Usually it is a word of honor thing. They even try to keep out former folks as well. No big pay days and the like. Real amateur stuff in the best sense of the word, weird little niche community. Not the typical PL crowd. Less test after all.

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« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2011, 03:31:16 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   

Trevor, I am sorry if you think I was suggesting to post less! I think it is good and admire your seemingly honest and open spirit on the forum.

I do concern myself only that perhaps obsessing with a problem can become a problem itself. I have no idea if you are doing that, but I know it can happen.

The prayer I was referring to was posted. For those words alone St. Augustine is a genius. 
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« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2011, 03:21:27 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
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« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2011, 04:39:59 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.
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« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2011, 10:00:31 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
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« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2011, 10:10:25 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.
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