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Author Topic: deaing with sexual tension, as an Orthodox Christian  (Read 8322 times) Average Rating: 5
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: April 04, 2011, 09:38:01 PM »

hello, all.

so, the Orthodox faith is really almost 2,000 years old.  there have been many, many Orthodox Christians since 33ad.  everyone goes through puberty, and they must deal with sexual tension.  since it is a sin to, (cough, cough) re-leave sexual tension manually, how is an Orthodox Christian to deal with the sexual tension that comes with puberty? 

are there any writings of the Church fathers that tell us how to deal with this? 
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 09:40:13 PM »

I've never really gotten an answer concerning this.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 09:44:43 PM »

pray....and be very (as in VERY) physically active- aerobic and strength training....then pray more....
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 09:52:09 PM »

Fwiw, one thing that I've heard that helps is keeping icons around the area that you're most likely to fall into problems. I guess it can be hard to do when you realise that the Theotokos or Jesus or whoever is looking at you--literally looking at you (the icon is a reminder of an invisible reality).
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 09:59:42 PM »

I think we just have to come to terms with biology and realize that there's no way to permanently "fix" this tension. Even if you were sexually active, there wouldn't be "relief". If you have sex, your body just produces more sperm and you then want it more. It's an endless cycle until you get too old to keep it up. Just keep asking for forgiveness and struggling to be in control of yourself. A lot of it has to do with your diet as well.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 10:12:48 PM »

hello, all.

so, the Orthodox faith is really almost 2,000 years old.  there have been many, many Orthodox Christians since 33ad.  everyone goes through puberty, and they must deal with sexual tension.  since it is a sin to, (cough, cough) re-leave sexual tension manually, how is an Orthodox Christian to deal with the sexual tension that comes with puberty? 

are there any writings of the Church fathers that tell us how to deal with this? 
Perhaps asking the help of another Orthodox Christian Wink
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 10:14:34 PM »

hello, all.

so, the Orthodox faith is really almost 2,000 years old.  there have been many, many Orthodox Christians since 33ad.  everyone goes through puberty, and they must deal with sexual tension.  since it is a sin to, (cough, cough) re-leave sexual tension manually, how is an Orthodox Christian to deal with the sexual tension that comes with puberty? 

are there any writings of the Church fathers that tell us how to deal with this? 
Perhaps asking the help of another Orthodox Christian Wink

*facepalm*
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 10:21:04 PM »

Or doing 900 prostrations when temptation comes.
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 10:31:38 PM »

Or doing 900 prostrations when temptation comes.

Is kernel of truth in joking made! 900 is a bit steep. Maybe 90 prostrations plus only bread and water for the day  police
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 10:52:53 PM »

Or doing 900 prostrations when temptation comes.

Is kernel of truth in joking made! 900 is a bit steep. Maybe 90 prostrations plus only bread and water for the day  police

lol.  on a serious note, I just love the concept of monasticism that a friend of mine whose a nun told me.  she said that monastics pray and work so hard that when they get back to their cell, there is no time for the passions to attack, as your head just hits the pillow (or rock, depending how hard-core you are with your monasticism  Wink  )
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 11:23:51 PM »

St John Cassian: On Fornication

"If we really desire to enter into this spiritual combat on the same terms as the Apostle, let us concentrate our every effort at dominating this unclean spirit by placing our confidence not in our own forces but on the help of God. Human effort will never be able to win through here. For the soul will be attacked by this vice as long as it does not recognize that it is in a war beyond its powers and that it cannot obtain victory by its own effort unless it is shored up by the help and protection of the Lord." St John Cassian, Book 6:5

"Furthermore, the more sublime and heavenly the reward of chastity, the more severe the attacks of the enemy on it. Therefore, it is all the more incumbent on us to add contrition of heart, and not only bodily continence, to our fervent and tearful prayers. Thus the furnace of our flesh, which the Babylonian king does not cease to stoke with carnal suggestions, may be quenched by the dew of the Holy Spirit descending into our hearts." - John Cassian, Book 6:17

I hope that St John Cassian is of some edification in your situation. Trust me, you are not alone in this struggle.

As-Salamu alaykum,
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EDIT: One more thing... Abba Antoni [the Great] said, 'I saw the snares of the enemy spreads out over the world and I said groaning, "What can get me through from such snares?" Then I heard a voice saying to me, "Humility."'
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 11:29:21 PM »





I would be banned if I posted links to some x-rated footage of monks. They caused lots of laughter in Romania.
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lol.  on a serious note, I just love the concept of monasticism that a friend of mine whose a nun told me.  she said that monastics pray and work so hard that when they get back to their cell, there is no time for the passions to attack, as your head just hits the pillow (or rock, depending how hard-core you are with your monasticism  Wink  )
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM »

You could... get married to the first girl who's interested and spontaneous to do it (that'd be kinda fun.... unless you expect the "honeymoon period" to last forever!)... or spend your summers at a monastery until you graduate (gotta friend who did this in high school/college, now is a novice monk)... or you could do tons of exercise like others suggested....

Lots of this problem for me was not so much lust, but anger (boredom is a type of anger).  I had no control over my down times, I'd get mad, be bored, then get on to it.  Was a big problem of association in the first year of marriage.
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 12:26:42 AM »

You could... get married to the first girl who's interested and spontaneous to do it (that'd be kinda fun.... unless you expect the "honeymoon period" to last forever!)... or spend your summers at a monastery until you graduate (gotta friend who did this in high school/college, now is a novice monk)... or you could do tons of exercise like others suggested....

Lots of this problem for me was not so much lust, but anger (boredom is a type of anger).  I had no control over my down times, I'd get mad, be bored, then get on to it.  Was a big problem of association in the first year of marriage.

interesting suggestions.  I understand the "spend summers at a monastery" totally.  I love to go to the local monastery.  it's like, the environment just sucks you up, and you feel like your getting a little nibble of theosis, and your mind is totally on spiritual things.  it's really beautiful, to forget the world and and worry about prayer, when to get up, and feeding the chickens (if only for a weekend!)
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 12:37:52 AM »

Fwiw, one thing that I've heard that helps is keeping icons around the area that you're most likely to fall into problems. I guess it can be hard to do when you realise that the Theotokos or Jesus or whoever is looking at you--literally looking at you (the icon is a reminder of an invisible reality).

Buying a 6 ft icon of Christ works wonders.
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 12:36:48 PM »

Fasting aka starving yourself like the Desert Fathers is pretty good Rx. Once you are in serious caloric deficit, one of the first things to go is libido.

The ultra low calories longevity folks are living proof.

You could also relieve yourself and lie two times less. I dunno why sexuality gets so much play, since even when I was at the height of my sexual activity, I don't think I could even have hit one percent of the judgmental, hateful, thoughts I had, not to mention the lies, frivolous spending of time, energy, and money, etc. with the amount of lustful thoughts much less sexual activity I participated in.



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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 02:22:01 PM »

You could always cut off Mr. John Thomas and this would cease to be a problem.  Uh, wait a minute.  Forget about that.  I hear that it has been tried before and that particular gentleman got himself condemned by a Council.  Oh well, if you find something that ACTUALLY works for the average person with a job and a life outside of a monsatery, let me know.  Believe me, getting married is NOT always a solution for the problem in question.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2011, 02:38:11 PM »

You could always cut off Mr. John Thomas and this would cease to be a problem.  Uh, wait a minute.  Forget about that.  I hear that it has been tried before and that particular gentleman got himself condemned by a Council.  Oh well, if you find something that ACTUALLY works for the average person with a job and a life outside of a monsatery, let me know.  Believe me, getting married is NOT always a solution for the problem in question.

Actually I don't see the problem. And I ain't being obtuse here.

Strictly speaking, what is the "problem"?
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2011, 02:54:04 PM »

You could always cut off Mr. John Thomas and this would cease to be a problem.  Uh, wait a minute.  Forget about that.  I hear that it has been tried before and that particular gentleman got himself condemned by a Council.  Oh well, if you find something that ACTUALLY works for the average person with a job and a life outside of a monsatery, let me know.  Believe me, getting married is NOT always a solution for the problem in question.

Actually I don't see the problem. And I ain't being obtuse here.

Strictly speaking, what is the "problem"?

Self-abuse.  And I agree with Punch on all accounts.
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2011, 02:56:23 PM »

You could always cut off Mr. John Thomas and this would cease to be a problem.  Uh, wait a minute.  Forget about that.  I hear that it has been tried before and that particular gentleman got himself condemned by a Council.  Oh well, if you find something that ACTUALLY works for the average person with a job and a life outside of a monsatery, let me know.  Believe me, getting married is NOT always a solution for the problem in question.

Actually I don't see the problem. And I ain't being obtuse here.

Strictly speaking, what is the "problem"?

Self-abuse.  And I agree with Punch on all accounts.

I am going to be try to be more obtuse. How is "sexual tension" self-abuse? I believe you are jumping to masturbation.

I am going to the beginning of the post and wondering why have an erection, which I think is meant by sexual tension, is a "problem"?
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2011, 03:05:03 PM »

Well, the OP uses "sexual tension" as the problem statement.  The OP also seems to stipulate (I used that word because it sounds nasty) the following:

1) People suffer from this,
2) It needs to be relieved, and
3) having sex with yourself is frowned upon.

I could see this as a problem.  At least the OP seems to.  I did not see this as a problem when I was younger since I did not particularly frown on #3 above (as long as it was not done in public).  However, I have discovered that there are people other than my parents that frown upon #3, and who claim consequences much more serious than one's hands turning black.  Now, at my age, walking around with a woody is probably not a real problem. In fact, it could be a source of pride.  But, I do remember that in my younger days, having a large protrusion below the belt was met with somewhat less enthusiasm than a female having large protrusions below the neck and above the waist.

BTW - my avatar has nothing to do with this thread.


You could always cut off Mr. John Thomas and this would cease to be a problem.  Uh, wait a minute.  Forget about that.  I hear that it has been tried before and that particular gentleman got himself condemned by a Council.  Oh well, if you find something that ACTUALLY works for the average person with a job and a life outside of a monsatery, let me know.  Believe me, getting married is NOT always a solution for the problem in question.

Actually I don't see the problem. And I ain't being obtuse here.

Strictly speaking, what is the "problem"?
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 03:07:07 PM »

From what I'm seeing, the "problem" is not sexual tension per se but the release of said tension as it applies to an unmarried pubescent male.  Generally speaking, within those parameters, physically speaking, that usually means one of two things: fornication or masturbation.  Trevor is looking for ideas for other outlets aside from those two.  Punch and I apparently agree that it's incredibly difficult for an average person with a job and a life outside a monastery to implement something that actually works and both note that marriage itself is not always a solution for the release of sexual tension, particularly if you have a history of over-indulgence in self-abuse.

Non-obtuse enough?

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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 03:07:57 PM »

BTW - my avatar has nothing to do with this thread.



Thank you, sir.  I needed that laugh today.
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 03:28:46 PM »

From what I'm seeing, the "problem" is not sexual tension per se but the release of said tension as it applies to an unmarried pubescent male.  Generally speaking, within those parameters, physically speaking, that usually means one of two things: fornication or masturbation.  Trevor is looking for ideas for other outlets aside from those two.  Punch and I apparently agree that it's incredibly difficult for an average person with a job and a life outside a monastery to implement something that actually works and both note that marriage itself is not always a solution for the release of sexual tension, particularly if you have a history of over-indulgence in self-abuse.

Non-obtuse enough?



I see Punch's point about obvious tumescence issue, although all of us men here know there are ways around this.

I strictly mean, you are physically aroused. OK. When does the problem begin?

I am hungry right now (another sort of physical arousal). I am observing a fast. There are at least a dozen pizzas within 20 feet of me. Is the fact my stomach is churning a bit and I am salivating a bit a problem? I don't think so. Pretty normal physiological response and I don't feel much culpability in the issue.

It would seem to me such issues become problem if you engage in behaviors in light of them you wish you wouldn't or you become obsessed in not engaging in those behaviors.

In my case, I know 100% of time if I don't walk over and pick up a piece of pizza and put it in my mouth and chew it and swallow it, I will not eat a piece of pizza and I will maintain my fast. There are a lot of gross motor movements there I absolutely can control.

The same could be said for most physical activities including masturbation.

Now, I think if I constantly struggled with walking up to the pizzas, sniffing them, taking an olive off, posting threads about not eating them, I might also have a problem. This is a problem which is more difficult to address and probably stopping the obsession with *NOT* doing something is to begin to understand the situation in a different light and taking practical steps to avoid the obsession with not doing the "wrong" thing.

So the question becomes which case is the problem. From Trevor's history as I know it. It seems to becoming the latter.

If that is the case, I think there is a lot of good advice to be given.

If it is the former, then just exert gross movement control. It ain't that big of a deal. Just uncomfortable or boring at times. If you mess up, then pray and ask for forgiveness. Again I would dare say that it would be rare person who engages in this "self-harm" more often than in gluttony, lying, hardness of heart, lack of charity, etc.

That insight alone could be a beginning point to releasing some of the tension so to speak.

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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2011, 03:33:01 PM »

Keep your bedroom door open and keep all computer/tv's in shared living areas.  I have friends who are fundamentalist protestants whose mother would duct tape their hands to the bed post each night before bed. It's a bit far imo though.
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2011, 03:36:12 PM »

hello, all.

so, the Orthodox faith is really almost 2,000 years old.  there have been many, many Orthodox Christians since 33ad.  everyone goes through puberty, and they must deal with sexual tension.  since it is a sin to, (cough, cough) re-leave sexual tension manually, how is an Orthodox Christian to deal with the sexual tension that comes with puberty? 

are there any writings of the Church fathers that tell us how to deal with this? 

Keep in mind that for most of those 2000 years people were getting married a lot earlier than they do these days. There was one Church Father, who argued that by 16 you should be married on in a monastery--I think St John Chrysostom. Even less than a century ago you have men (boys??) entering monasteries as young as 12 or 13.

I'm not arguing that teenagers struggling with such issues should run off to monasteries so young, just pointing out that the reality of times past was different than our reality.
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »

Keep your bedroom door open and keep all computer/tv's in shared living areas.  I have friends who are fundamentalist protestants whose mother would duct tape their hands to the bed post each night before bed. It's a bit far imo though.
Those parents are cuckoo. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 03:41:47 PM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2011, 03:43:28 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »

they must be obsessed with sex, for all their puritanical whatever
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2011, 03:44:41 PM »

Keep your bedroom door open and keep all computer/tv's in shared living areas.  I have friends who are fundamentalist protestants whose mother would duct tape their hands to the bed post each night before bed. It's a bit far imo though.
Those parents are cuckoo. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Ummm understatement much? That is called child abuse.

Regarding all these over protectively parental intrusions into the auto-sexual behavior of their children:

What happens in the shower, stays in the shower . . .

I mean let's get real here. Lotsa good pastoral and compassionate points above in the previous posts.

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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2011, 03:45:55 PM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

I could see that.  Not as awkward, perhaps, as my response would have been: "No thanks, that's a little too kinky for my tastes."  Needless to say, I never got invited back to any super-fundamentalist friends' houses.
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2011, 03:46:42 PM »

they must be obsessed with sex, for all their puritanical whatever

no doubt. Freud wasn't without his insight into Victorian mores and how they affected the behavior of the up-standing folks he was treating.
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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2011, 03:47:22 PM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

I could see that.  Not as awkward, perhaps, as my response would have been: "No thanks, that's a little too kinky for my tastes."  Needless to say, I never got invited back to any super-fundamentalist friends' houses.

*zing*
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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 04:07:07 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2011, 04:11:36 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2011, 04:16:24 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.

im talking about acting out the lust
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« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2011, 04:17:47 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.

im talking about acting out the lust

So am I.
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« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2011, 04:21:40 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.

im talking about acting out the lust

So am I.

ummm ok ...
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« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2011, 04:31:51 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.

It is certainly true that adolescence is basically an eighteenth-century invention which was created in order to make it possible to extend young  peoples' educations.    However, I do agree that getting married does not necessarily solve the problem, although your point is well taken.
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2011, 04:44:18 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....
Why not cutting off the members involved, as the Scriptures say?
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2011, 04:46:14 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....
Why not cutting off the members involved, as the Scriptures say?
Stop reading your Origen.
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2011, 04:48:42 PM »

Never read a line of Origen in my life.
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2011, 04:50:23 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
In those days, 14 was middle aged. For all that, I see a lot about women getting married at that age, men, not so much.
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2011, 05:02:03 PM »

Never read a line of Origen in my life.

"Notwithstanding, these gates have a certain power by which they gain the mastery over some who do not resist and strive against them; but they are overcome by others who, because they do not turn aside from Him who said, 'I am the door,' have rased from their soul all the gates of Hades. And this also we must know that as the gates of cities have each their own names, in the same way the gates of Hades might be named after the species of sins; so that one gate of Hades is called 'fornication,' through which fornicators go, and another 'denial,' through which the deniers of God go down into Hades." - Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 12, 12

There, now you won't die saying you've never read any Origen  Grin
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
In those days, 14 was middle aged. For all that, I see a lot about women getting married at that age, men, not so much.

Not really. Such numbers are skewed by including infant/toddler mortality which brings down the numbers. If you survived to 5, you had a good chance of seeing 60.
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »

Here is a VERY Orthodox answer, but will seem VERY unorthodox to many.

We marry too late.

Back in the day, 14 & 15 years old was common.  

The virgin Mary many even speculate was 14-15 which is when God came incarnate through her.

The real solution for Christians has always been there.  We just adapted to modern day society where now days it seems 25 is still kind of young to be married.
Just because new modern thought is popular doesn't always mean its right.

The idea of a 14 year old engaging in Holy Matrimony today is nearly considered abuse.  In ancient Christianity, it was very common.
In those days, 14 was middle aged. For all that, I see a lot about women getting married at that age, men, not so much.

Not really. Such numbers are skewed by including infant/toddler mortality which brings down the numbers. If you survived to 5, you had a good chance of seeing 60.

And getting married at 15 made it seem like 352.
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2011, 05:53:32 PM »

i think id rather resort to duct tape than fall into lust ....

Resorting to duct tape is falling into lust.

im talking about acting out the lust

So am I.

Duct tape can be sexy, if somewhat uncomfortable.
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2011, 05:57:05 PM »

The theory that we marry too late, and that this is one reason why masturbation and fornication are much stronger temptations now than in earlier generations, is supported by the Fathers, I think. St Nicodemus of the Mountain quotes St John Chrysostom to this effect, I seem to recall (in the Exomologetarion), or it may have been some other Father. Anyway, he says parents should not neglect to provide their young men with spouses as early as possible, in order for their sons not to fall into sin. This interestingly presupposes that marriages were arranged by parents (so no courting or dating), and since puberty or shortly after puberty was considered the ideal time for marriage for both sexes, it presupposes that a married couple has a reasonable hope of success even at an age which in modern society would be considered impractically early.

Hence it looks to me as if a good deal of the extra burden on modern young people comes from parental negligence: if you're left to search for future spouses on your own, for example, you more or less have to take your cues from secular society on how to go about attracting potential mates, and usually this involves going beyond the bounds of propriety in relations between the sexes; and if your parents or extended family (assuming you have one) do not provide necessary financial support for an early marriage, the young man or woman must wait until he or she can be financially independent, which requires landing a job that pays well enough to support both oneself and one's children, which typically requires a long and expensive education, rendering the parents even less able to provide nest eggs, etc. Even then we're leaving aside the question of whether one or both spouses work.

Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.

At the same time, surely there are other factors affecting the severity of these temptations. For instance, the fact that they are now generally accepted as normal behavior in secular society. Even if your child avoids being indoctrinated with sexual permissiveness in public school, he or she will still be confronted with it everywhere as he or she grows up, through all media. So in addition to the pressure of one's natural urges, there is the pressure of conforming to wider society. In a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful, it would presumably be that much easier to resist the natural urges. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if society's current permissiveness is related to the financial and social impracticalities of early marriage, and I expect both phenomena reinforce each other.
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2011, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2011, 06:26:44 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


You seem to have missed the part about no courting or dating. If marriages are arranged by parents, then there is no reason for men and women to try to attract or pursue each other outside of marriage, and hence it makes sense to maintain a strict segregation of the sexes that was normal in early Christian times and which the Fathers assume to be normal. Why do even Orthodox women today wear make-up and jewelery and revealing clothes? In order to attract men, of course. If they followed the traditions of the Fathers, on the other hand, they would cover themselves and dress modestly. Of course, the result would be that they would not be so successful in attracting men, a result which is highly desirable from the point of view of preserving chastity, but not desirable if women have no other way to find a mate.

Now, this strictly segregated culture seems to have been normal for Byzantine times and also for the Greeks under Turkish rule (since the Moslems have similarly strict codes), and also I believe for pre-Petrine Russia. But I agree that in Russia after Westernization began under Tsar Peter, Western courtship customs began to be introduced. Of course, by todays standards they were still very proper and modest, but you did start to have this notion that young men are responsible for pursuing potential mates, and that they can't simply leave it up to their parents. The necessity of courtship results in an unavoidable tension between the strict demands of Christian modesty and the practical demands of finding a suitable spouse for the vast majority of us who are not intent on monasticism.
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2011, 06:41:02 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


And back down to earth we come.
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2011, 07:50:38 PM »



Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.


interesting that you say this.  at school, they never talk about marriage.  they just tell us to wait to have sex until after we have jobs.  they also have given us quizzes on choosing our future "life mate".
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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »

Quote
you more or less have to take your cues from secular society
Even when they married early they still took cues from the so-called secular society.
There was no other society, or do you imagine the Orthodox lived like the Amish or the Russian Raskolniki? Not really.
Quote
in a culture where such behavior is considered sinful and even harmful
My grand-parents, at least, were born and married  (at 16, grandma, grandpa around 19) into a culture were there wasn't much sleeping around. Not because people there thought in terms of "sin/virtue", but for fear of ridicule and gossip and, for women, especially, ruining their chances at a good marriage. It was a very settled, immobile, small world, quite oppressive by today's standards (especially towards women), with paterfamilias exercising an overwhelming authority over the lives of those of a given household.
About God they cared as much as today. They did, but it wasn't their first concern.


And back down to earth we come.

Indeed!!  With a heck of a bump!
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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

As a female (hey, we struggle with this problem too...at certain times!) who has known male Christian friends who have shared their problems with her (please don't ask why; I don't know), exercise WORKS. It's great. I run outside for 30 minutes to an hour and I am thoroughly exhausted when I get back.

(Unfortunately I indulge thoughts while exercising, so you still have to guard your mind as much as you can.) The guys I talked to exercised as well, and they said it was the best solution for the moment, in addition to praying and just making sure that they aren't idle.

I am wondering why no one suggested a cold shower?  Huh Joking.

Just keep praying....God knows we will be tempted with this for the rest of our lives. Marriage doesn't quite solve all those issues so neatly either. We still deal with the issues we had when we were younger. God knows I am still struggling with them right now.

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« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.

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« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2011, 10:13:57 PM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.
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« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2011, 10:21:39 PM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

Then we wonder how our society produces people like Jeffery Domer..

Look............. Just do it and then don't tell anyone. Works for 99% of the male population.  Undecided
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« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2011, 11:44:02 PM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?
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« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2011, 01:07:13 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?

“Lord, Make me chaste, but not yet” - Blessed Augustine
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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2011, 08:26:29 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   


would you mind posting the prayer, for those of us who don't recall it?

“Lord, Make me chaste, but not yet” - Blessed Augustine

 Wink
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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2011, 09:19:17 AM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.

This is one of the most memorable quotes (for me, at least) from the Ladder.  Thank you for posting it, George.
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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2011, 10:52:02 AM »

This is a serious issue on many levels that crosses the boarders of the "peer pressure", "understanding", "modern thinking", and "neglect from parents".  

I'll break it down as best as I can.  I take it most people in this thread are males, so I can't speak for females.

Problem:
You know how tough it was between 13-18.  LOL.  The thoughts were almost constant and almost uncontrollable.  It was a strange and confusing time basically stuck in a paradigm of "being a kid to society", when in reality 300 years ago we'd have no problem surviving on our own if we had proper instruction on living, planting, animals, and surviving.  Instead most of us were in classrooms with our minds nearly restless.  Most of us were highly independent and felt trapped in our lives because we were still at our parents home with no opportunities (because 18 is the magic adult age) for real work.

The way that God made us was at those ages to be extremely fertile and ready to start life with a female in Holy Matrimony.  Like I said in a previous post, the virgin Mary is highly speculated to be around 14-15 when she gave birth to our God and savior.  But to think of anybody in the USA getting married at 14-15 is seriously considered horrendous.  People would be all over that calling it "child abuse".  Many states even have laws stating "nobody under 16-17" depending on the state will be granted a "marriage license".

School systems suppress life experience of the young ones and fill their minds with stories such as "The Raven" (murder), "Romeo & Juliet" (teen suicide), and Beowulf (sorcery & witchcraft), (side note: and don't allow prayer) and basically tell young adults that they graduate around 18 years old.

The government who is funded by us, funds the school system.  18 again is the "magic age" to be an adult.  Barely any jobs under 18 pay anything and it basically suppresses young adults from starting their lives.

I guess my point is, just because WE have always seen things this way or that way, doesn't mean it's right.  

Parents also neglect life lessons to their children and they are virtually unprepared at 18 to face the world.  Why?  The school system raised them.

Now days, 25 seems too young to marry.  
So people fall into all kinds of sins.  (Let's face it monks make up a teeny weeny fraction of the world's population).
For most people the influence is too strong.

Couple that with a moral disaster that comes through the T.V., radio, and internet, and we have a problem Houston.



The Orthodox Solution:
As anything Orthodox, keep it old.  14-15 was a great age to get married (and no it was not always a 50 year old man marrying a 14 year old girl - stop watching Fiddler on the Roof).  Nothing morally wrong with it.  The God & the church endorsed it completely.  The young adults "grew together" rather than becoming set in their ways then getting married later on for complications and over a 50% divorce rate (not including shack ups).

The young man enjoyed "the beauty of her youth" as the song of songs states.  The young woman had a healthy young male to "get the farm started & home".   All sexual tension could be relieved without problem.  The young woman was in fantastic child bearing years (16 being the most healthy age medically to have a baby - even modern medicine states this).

Is this practical today - Yes & No.

Yes on a moral & practical ground biologically, no because of suppression.

The World Solution.
1) Masturbate
2) Porn
3) Fornication
4) "party - have fun"
5) Grow older
6) Get money
7) Get set in your ways
Cool Date for 2 years in fornication (possibly move in)
9) Get married
10) Fun for 2 more years, both set in their ways, fight, fight some more, divorce.

But why would we expect more from a moral less society that condemns what God created naturally?  The children of the world are evil.




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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2011, 10:54:24 AM »

^It's defiantly more then a little awkward when you sleep over and they ask if you would like your hands duct taped.

Then we wonder how our society produces people like Jeffery Domer..

Look............. Just do it and then don't tell anyone. Works for 99% of the male population.  Undecided

Hey man, you know the rules.

1-3: Don't talk about Night Club!!!
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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:47 PM »



Some of the problem, on the other hand, may result from the increased selfishness of youths. Since marriage is now seen as appropriate to later adulthood, young people now concentrate less on preparing for marriage and family life in their earliest years. You're basically looking at a vicious social cycle, in other words.


interesting that you say this.  at school, they never talk about marriage.  they just tell us to wait to have sex until after we have jobs.  they also have given us quizzes on choosing our future "life mate".

Well maybe your school was a little more responsible than mine Wink Still, jobs aren't the benchmark here, marriage is, but then we already know that.  Tongue
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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2011, 10:44:25 PM »

As a female (hey, we struggle with this problem too...at certain times!) who has known male Christian friends who have shared their problems with her (please don't ask why; I don't know), exercise WORKS. It's great. I run outside for 30 minutes to an hour and I am thoroughly exhausted when I get back.

(Unfortunately I indulge thoughts while exercising, so you still have to guard your mind as much as you can.) The guys I talked to exercised as well, and they said it was the best solution for the moment, in addition to praying and just making sure that they aren't idle.

I am wondering why no one suggested a cold shower?  Huh Joking.

Just keep praying....God knows we will be tempted with this for the rest of our lives. Marriage doesn't quite solve all those issues so neatly either. We still deal with the issues we had when we were younger. God knows I am still struggling with them right now.



This makes sense. The Fathers talk about physical labor and toil as cures for passions, which I think we can take to mean exercise in our modern context, where so many of us have sedentary jobs, so that "work" no longer equates with earning bread by the sweat of one's brow. For the Fathers, the primary purpose of toil was not physical fitness, although this was certainly a welcome benefit, but because it wearies the body and hence temptation, in the way fasting wearies the body (if done properly!).

But you importantly noted that prayer is just as, if not more essential. Toil and fasting will only work if we also have prayer: it's not as if vegetarians or athletes are magically immune to the temptations of the flesh.
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« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2011, 10:47:56 PM »

"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For with nature on his side, he has the better of the argument."
St. John Klimakos- The Ladder, Step 15 v.24

What is natural can only be overcome by what is Supernatural.

This is one of the most memorable quotes (for me, at least) from the Ladder.  Thank you for posting it, George.

I second that. Excellent quotation. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 02:11:42 PM »

I have read that psychologists said that people who have relations before their 24th birthday, are less mentally stable, have a lower metabolism, and have a higher rate of nervous breakdowns.
The idea that masturbation and early sexual initiation (before age 24 for women, and 26 for men) are beneficial is an error. It is better not to force oneself into sexual intercourse solely based on current societal norms. That previous sentence is from a psychology textbook from 1900. Society has always promoted unhealthy sex, even during the Victorian era.
I am 22 now and I have not had sex with any woman.
Everything in my pants is okay, but the fact that I have a pair of old sneakers, worn out pants so thus I will not get me any woman. That's the facts of life.   
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 05:49:39 PM »

Fwiw, one thing that I've heard that helps is keeping icons around the area that you're most likely to fall into problems. I guess it can be hard to do when you realise that the Theotokos or Jesus or whoever is looking at you--literally looking at you (the icon is a reminder of an invisible reality).

Buying a 6 ft icon of Christ works wonders.

Gregory of Denver's group sells such icons. I've thought about buying one before, just because it'd make me the super-duper-mostest-pious person in town. On the other hand, for a 6' tall paper/mounted icon they want $1296.00 (plus shipping). A bit out of my price range  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 05:57:00 PM »

I have read that psychologists said that people who have relations before their 24th birthday, are less mentally stable, have a lower metabolism, and have a higher rate of nervous breakdowns.
The idea that masturbation and early sexual initiation (before age 24 for women, and 26 for men) are beneficial is an error. It is better not to force oneself into sexual intercourse solely based on current societal norms. That previous sentence is from a psychology textbook from 1900. Society has always promoted unhealthy sex, even during the Victorian era.
I am 22 now and I have not had sex with any woman.
Everything in my pants is okay, but the fact that I have a pair of old sneakers, worn out pants so thus I will not get me any woman. That's the facts of life.   

 laugh  Well that will teach me to trust my Internet Instincts.  I thought you were closer to my own age than to my son's age...He's older than you are by seven years.  I think you have made much wiser choices than he made at your age and younger.  I think he just might agree with me after all these year...
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2011, 11:57:09 PM »

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2011, 02:00:01 PM »

I am so happy to see you've brought this bit of reality to the discussion.  I debated and debated yesterday whether or not to even raise the issue of physical exertion and increased libido, or increased stress and increased libido, and the fact that fasting is really the only way to effectively suppress that natural urge...but I decided against it and am now very glad that I held off!!

Great post!

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").
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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2011, 05:08:23 PM »

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment at all, but hey, exercise has worked for me and others. Fasting makes a lot of sense, but keeping busy and making sure that I'm not idle helps me, probably because I'm not in a position to relieve it...
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2011, 05:16:51 PM »

I have to say, orthonorm's post is a home run.  I know I never found "keeping busy" to be enough of a distraction. 

Hardcore fasting, however, has always worked.  I just wish I was more of a mind to do it more.

Fasting, that is.  Not the other thing. Wink
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2011, 08:28:05 PM »

I am so happy to see you've brought this bit of reality to the discussion.  I debated and debated yesterday whether or not to even raise the issue of physical exertion and increased libido, or increased stress and increased libido, and the fact that fasting is really the only way to effectively suppress that natural urge...but I decided against it and am now very glad that I held off!!

Great post!

lulz at "working out" being equated with real physical labor.

I've been a real athlete and I can tell you nothing compares to the exhaustion of stripping and hanging tobacco all day or laying brick or carry roofing TILES up and down a 30 foot ladder all day in 90F.

Working that hard does nothing to quell the libido of any young man.

Ask any man who has served under severe conditions in the military about how excessive exertion quells libido. They certainly have no rep for promiscuity.

Those of us in the sticks would train for sport and work hard and it didn't do a thing to alter libido.

Starving yourself (Desert Fasting) does.

Eat about 1000-1200 for a couple months regardless of what you do and see what happens. Most women ain't even going to ovulate if they cut those number back about 10%.

The gym goofs at work when they have to do large scale lab work that requires heavy lifting and crawling up and down ladders, tanks, moving 500# drums, 1500# skids in control conditions over 100F don't keep up with even the alter cockers who do that stuff full time. And the older guys still ain't resorting to any blue pill, much less those of us who are younger.

They can bench their "huge" numbers (lulz at anything < 1.5 BW), do their "functional" training, run their middling 5ks, etc. Real manual labor is much different.

If you are really going to take advice from the Desert Fathers on quelling those passions, you might want to try to live like them: isolation, manual labor, starvation, and chronic sleep deficit.

Even then, best of luck to you.

Or you just realize your body goes through varying states of arousal in relation to varying conditions and how you want to satisfy or not satisfy those states of arousal is literally in your hands.

Masturbation, eating, drinking, smoking, or otherwise.

FWIW. Most folks when they begin experiencing diminishing libido due to age, one of the things suggested to increase it, is to be less sedentary. ("work out").

It's not just the diminished calories but it's also the lack of meat. A diet high in meat will increase libido.
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2011, 03:48:09 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2011, 04:02:45 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2011, 05:01:44 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone

As has eggs, citrus fruits (and others), dark green vegetables, etc.
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« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2011, 05:08:07 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.

If Orthodox Christian men are fasting from meat during Great Lent, then why do so many males get so angry during Lent?
Sheesh! Even my non-Orthodox neighbors are heard screaming profanities during this time of year. What gives?
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2011, 09:21:18 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com
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« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2011, 01:39:48 AM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2011, 02:05:10 AM »

The links with test and diet are just that links. Minimal relation. Looks at the studies. Like with most nutrition stuff they get blown out of proportion by the shysters looking to make money or a name off the hoi polloi.

Get diagnoses with low test by a real docs. They ain't going to prescribe ribeyes.

Was pretty much a vegan for a long time. Gained a ton of lean mass and had a libido as high or higher than most.

What kills libido and test is age and extreme stress, age being a form of stress.

Now if you what to turn this thread into how increase test with over the counter and "nebulously" legal substances or illegal we can.

Good diet with tons of calories, low stress, tons of sleep, youth, extremely short resistance work that creates a hormonal cascade is the SOP if you want to go the "natural" route.

So little to no family commitments, easy job, little social life, cause getting that 10-12 hour sleep per day to recover from the infrequent and extreme difficult lifting cut into one's life a lot. And you feel like you've been beaten by a few guys about 5/7ths of your time awake.

Had to put on a bunch of weight for a few years and gained 80 of within about a year and my test jumped and had some of the signs of PED use. After six months at the "serious" gym I was at, I was approached more than once about what stack I was using. Since I was there just twice or so a week and had large gains.

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural and he followed a similar SOP with a lot more time in the gym working out the technical aspects of the lifts not really "working out".

Oh yeah, that all happened with nary an animal product on my part.

My brother switched up to BBing for a while and garbage eating and lifting then periods of ketosis were the order of the day. His test was high eating garbage (all the stuff Marc thinks will kill you, like a potato) and his test would drop when eating like Marc believes everyone should but probably doesn't even do himself: paleothlic, read pseudo to full ketosis.

Now, hitting middle age and your libido is dipping and you've been living off junk food for a decade and doing nill physically, then eating any diet which is healthier and engaging in some physical activity is probably going to increase libido and maybe test (two ain't necessarily related, chemical and physical castration isn't effective with some humans and some animals). Whether that diet is "vegan", "paleo", or whatever.

Again, want to kill your libido: extreme and chronic stress. Starving, sleep dep, depression, etc.







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« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2011, 02:07:07 AM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Red meat has been linked to increased testosterone, which will indeed increase libido, and may increase aggressiveness.

If Orthodox Christian men are fasting from meat during Great Lent, then why do so many males get so angry during Lent?
Sheesh! Even my non-Orthodox neighbors are heard screaming profanities during this time of year. What gives?

Change of season. Spring gets people sprung. Winter blues fall away to Spring scarlet fever.
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« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2011, 02:12:43 AM »

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural

Didn't know such a creature existed. Good on him.
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« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2011, 02:31:21 AM »

My brother was and still is a somewhat serious and successful PLer always natural

Didn't know such a creature existed. Good on him.

Oh yeah. Usually it is a word of honor thing. They even try to keep out former folks as well. No big pay days and the like. Real amateur stuff in the best sense of the word, weird little niche community. Not the typical PL crowd. Less test after all.

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« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2011, 03:31:16 AM »

Every time Trevor posts on this subject, I can't help but think of St. Augustine's infamous prayer.



sorry if I post on this too frequently  Wink  .  as a teen, I guess it's something I really struggle with.   

Trevor, I am sorry if you think I was suggesting to post less! I think it is good and admire your seemingly honest and open spirit on the forum.

I do concern myself only that perhaps obsessing with a problem can become a problem itself. I have no idea if you are doing that, but I know it can happen.

The prayer I was referring to was posted. For those words alone St. Augustine is a genius. 
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« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2011, 03:21:27 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
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« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2011, 04:39:59 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.
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« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2011, 10:00:31 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
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« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2011, 10:10:25 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.
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« Reply #90 on: April 10, 2011, 10:44:39 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.

Read for content.. I was not speaking about you when I said such conversations should not make your blood boil. I thought I was being clear. I will try harder in the future.

Not a thing was derailed in this thread by me any way. Someone asked where they can read up on how meat effects libido. Rather than answer with a long explanation I merely provided links where there are articles about such things...That was a perfectly reasonable reply to a direct question. Nothing is being "Pitched".   Cranky are we?  Smiley

I believe that saved bandwidth. However, I will be more than willing to donate to OC.net the .000000185% of one cent for the bandwidth used to provide those links.

Here is the question that was asked: I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?



I provided links to where medical studies and various explanations can be found... Direct question = Direct answer. No "derailing" is  very apparent to me. Sorry again.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 11:05:11 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2011, 10:49:07 PM »

That's just wonderful.  Now you are going to get a nastygram about quoting yourself without additional comment  Smiley

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.
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« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2011, 11:37:01 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.

Read for content.. I was not speaking about you when I said such conversations should not make your blood boil. I thought I was being clear. I will try harder in the future.

Not a thing was derailed in this thread by me any way. Someone asked where they can read up on how meat effects libido. Rather than answer with a long explanation I merely provided links where there are articles about such things...That was a perfectly reasonable reply to a direct question. Nothing is being "Pitched".   Cranky are we?  Smiley

I believe that saved bandwidth. However, I will be more than willing to donate to OC.net the .000000185% of one cent for the bandwidth used to provide those links.

Here is the question that was asked: I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?



I provided links to where medical studies and various explanations can be found... Direct question = Direct answer. No "derailing" is  very apparent to me. Sorry again.
Your baseless and apparently hypocritical jab at my "crankiness" aside, links to the specific articles you want us to read would look like less of a cross-posted sales pitch than what you did. "Here are links to a couple of Web sites where you can find a number of articles, but you have to do the dirty work of looking for them."
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 11:37:41 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2011, 09:17:01 PM »

I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?

Hear are two good sources for info. on meat based diets. You can search the various articles.

www.westonaprice.org

www.thepaleodiet.com

Again:  Roll Eyes

Orthonorm doesn't like any nutrition advice except his own.
No. Like me, he doesn't like seeing you cross-post it everywhere you see the opportunity.

It was a direct answer to a direct question. Orthnorm has a chip on his shoulder and takes similar shots in various threads repeating the exact same advice and the same thinly veiled  insults...

The subject of nutrition  shouldn't get your blood to boil. If it does, it's really truly not my fault.
I don't have a problem with nutrition or with discussions of nutrition. You have a whole thread devoted to the subject of nutrition where you pitch your two favorite Web sites. Maybe instead of cross-posting links to those sites and threatening to derail threads by doing so--not to mention placing added stress on our bandwidth--you could instead post a link to the thread on this forum where we discuss your take on nutrition and your two favorite sites.

For example: Nutrition and Diet, or just http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24938.0.html.

That way you don't derail threads with your nutritional sales pitches, but instead you redirect posters to the location on this forum where they can continue the discussion of nutrition you already started.

Read for content.. I was not speaking about you when I said such conversations should not make your blood boil. I thought I was being clear. I will try harder in the future.

Not a thing was derailed in this thread by me any way. Someone asked where they can read up on how meat effects libido. Rather than answer with a long explanation I merely provided links where there are articles about such things...That was a perfectly reasonable reply to a direct question. Nothing is being "Pitched".   Cranky are we?  Smiley

I believe that saved bandwidth. However, I will be more than willing to donate to OC.net the .000000185% of one cent for the bandwidth used to provide those links.

Here is the question that was asked: I know the traditional notion is that eating more meat, all else being equal, including caloric intake, increases libido (and anger and other passions). Does this correspond to anyone's personal experience, or are there recent medical studies that confirm this?



I provided links to where medical studies and various explanations can be found... Direct question = Direct answer. No "derailing" is  very apparent to me. Sorry again.
Your baseless and apparently hypocritical jab at my "crankiness" aside, links to the specific articles you want us to read would look like less of a cross-posted sales pitch than what you did. "Here are links to a couple of Web sites where you can find a number of articles, but you have to do the dirty work of looking for them."

 You have totally derailed this thread for no apparent reason. I posted a two sentence reply to a question. My post was perfectly reasonable and in fact provided a good source of information. The poster asked for published articles. I showed him where he can find some...

Your odd characterizations of "Sales Pitches" and the like is off the wall and nothing but an  ad hominem remark. Several people over several threads have testified that they follow Paleo or Weston Price type diets and how much it has helped them... I suggest once again that this is a very benign subject and I am amazed that it makes you and Orthonorm so angry.
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« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2011, 11:10:16 PM »

Not to derail the thread further but I find the paleo diet very intriguing.  A lot of our health problems stem from eating crappy stuff.  There are definitely worse things you can do than eat the foods our ancestors thrived on.  As my anthropology professor once said, a couple hundred years of industrialism do not compare to ten thousand years of human evolution.  Our bodies have not yet adapted to the modern world (which I think is a good thing.  God did a good job creating life, who are we to challenge his wisdom?).

As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.
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« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2011, 11:19:04 PM »

Not to derail the thread further but I find the paleo diet very intriguing.  A lot of our health problems stem from eating crappy stuff.  There are definitely worse things you can do than eat the foods our ancestors thrived on. 
LOL. Which was often literally crapp.

Quote
As my anthropology professor once said, a couple hundred years of industrialism do not compare to ten thousand years of human evolution.  Our bodies have not yet adapted to the modern world (which I think is a good thing.  God did a good job creating life, who are we to challenge his wisdom?).

As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.
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« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2011, 12:20:16 AM »


As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.
yes, I've started taking sips in the mornings and evenings. It's really helped.  I've also been thinking of cutting my prosphora into pieces and eating one every morning. 
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« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2011, 04:00:09 PM »


As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.
yes, I've started taking sips in the mornings and evenings. It's really helped.  I've also been thinking of cutting my prosphora into pieces and eating one every morning. 

My prosphora molded after four days when I used to do that....  does anyone know how to make it keep?
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« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2011, 04:07:27 PM »


As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.
yes, I've started taking sips in the mornings and evenings. It's really helped.  I've also been thinking of cutting my prosphora into pieces and eating one every morning. 

My prosphora molded after four days when I used to do that....  does anyone know how to make it keep?

Bake it after you take it home.  Cut it into small cubes and then toast them in an oven or toaster oven until they're hard - they should keep for a long time then.  This is what a few of the Athonite monasteries do, and they give the dried Antidoron to people to have with Holy Water in the morning; I've got a 2+ year-old bag from one of the monasteries, and it's all still good.
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« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2011, 06:22:31 PM »

Not to derail the thread further but I find the paleo diet very intriguing.  A lot of our health problems stem from eating crappy stuff.  There are definitely worse things you can do than eat the foods our ancestors thrived on.
LOL. Which was often literally crapp.

Quote
As my anthropology professor once said, a couple hundred years of industrialism do not compare to ten thousand years of human evolution.  Our bodies have not yet adapted to the modern world (which I think is a good thing.  God did a good job creating life, who are we to challenge his wisdom?).

As to the OP, I find that taking a swig of Holy Water does well to quell the temptations.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.............Mammoth
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« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2011, 06:42:16 PM »

Marc, you know I got your paleo back, homie  Wink
Written whilst eating mixed raw nuts and fruit swimming in coconut milk.

FWIW, I'm used to eating a LOT of meat, to suddenly none (my first fast), and besides not seeing my deadlift go up weekly with the same old vigor, it has definitely made the marital relations part of the fast more tolerable.
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« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2011, 08:10:06 PM »

Marc, you know I got your paleo back, homie  Wink
Written whilst eating mixed raw nuts and fruit swimming in coconut milk.

FWIW, I'm used to eating a LOT of meat, to suddenly none (my first fast), and besides not seeing my deadlift go up weekly with the same old vigor, it has definitely made the marital relations part of the fast more tolerable.

For fun, what is your BW and DL?
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« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2011, 02:41:27 AM »

Marc, you know I got your paleo back, homie  Wink
Written whilst eating mixed raw nuts and fruit swimming in coconut milk.

FWIW, I'm used to eating a LOT of meat, to suddenly none (my first fast), and besides not seeing my deadlift go up weekly with the same old vigor, it has definitely made the marital relations part of the fast more tolerable.

For fun, what is your BW and DL?

Not much. 165BW/265DL. Had to lose about 60lbs to begin with 2 years ago, having gotten way out of shape, and I just did it all relatively quickly, which meant throwing out the msucle with the bad stuff!
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« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2011, 03:16:18 AM »

Marc, you know I got your paleo back, homie  Wink
Written whilst eating mixed raw nuts and fruit swimming in coconut milk.

FWIW, I'm used to eating a LOT of meat, to suddenly none (my first fast), and besides not seeing my deadlift go up weekly with the same old vigor, it has definitely made the marital relations part of the fast more tolerable.

For fun, what is your BW and DL?

Not much. 165BW/265DL. Had to lose about 60lbs to begin with 2 years ago, having gotten way out of shape, and I just did it all relatively quickly, which meant throwing out the msucle with the bad stuff!
My bad, I'd just typed 165, so I hit a 6 again instead of a 4. I weigh 165 and dead 245, not 265. (but my Save% is great, and my on-base percentage ain't bad either!  Cheesy)
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« Reply #104 on: April 14, 2011, 12:32:26 AM »

@ Fr George - thank you so much for the tip!  To toast, away I go.
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« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2011, 05:16:31 PM »

Was this link mentioned yet? I don't recall seeing it, but it's been a couple weeks since I read the thread... anyway...

http://orthodoxcounselor.com/healing_from_lust.htm

A lot of info on the site to sift through, but some good points...  now if I could put the advice into practice  angel
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