Author Topic: question in regards to colleges  (Read 11526 times)

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2004, 09:30:14 PM »
I did not change my story.  I just didn't feel it necessary to go into any more detail earlier.  

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Offline Ben

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2004, 09:52:29 PM »
RB may be right, you might be changing you story Joe.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2004, 10:07:10 PM »
what?  I have not changed my story.  Put the two posts  up right next to each other and you can see this.  It is just in the first post I did not see the need to waste everyone's time wiht the details.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2004, 10:09:35 PM »
as explained in both posts, I find it laughable when people say that ROCOR is a fringe group given my previous experience with actual fringe groups.  As more detaily explained in teh second post, I find it laughable when Orthodox think this as I find it laughable when RB believes this.  That's just the way I see it.

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2004, 03:20:23 PM »
1. Does it bother you, me saying that if ROCOR rebaptize people it is dabbling in the donatist heresy? and if you missed it,I said that other orthodox churches recieve catholics by christmation(sp). So no, I was not taking a ceap shop at any church.

Dear RB,

By now, I expect that, even if you don't agree with the position, you will have been exposed at least once to the notion that Orthodox don't regard Roman Catholics as being part of the Body of Christ, or at the very least are agnostic about the question.  See Ambrose's post regarding Donatism.  The charge of Donatism doesn't apply here.  If a cradle Orthodox person, for example, became a Muslim and then came back, and they were re-baptised, then it applies.  

No, I did not miss that you mentioned that other Churches receive RC's by Chrismation, but two things come to mind.  One, barring some sort of conciliar decree explicitly stating how a convert is to be received, it is the bishop's prerogative to determine how this happens.  Two, as a Roman Catholic, you believe that Confirmation/Chrismation also confers an indelible mark upon the soul of the recipient.  How come you are not railing out against the Orthodox for chrismating RC's?  You don't seem consistent.    

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It is most unfortunate that you took my comment out of context. I was comparing/contrasting the practice of rebaptizing to the settlement of the donatist heresy. That is all.

I didn't take it out of context.  First, I see you (and pretty much only you) talking about how Joe is betraying his principles for cash, comparing him to Judas, etc., and it is clear he is not doing that.  I can only presume that you just like picking on people who are converting to Orthodoxy from RCism because you don't like that.  Then you asked if Joe was baptised in the RCC, he said no because he was baptised by Protestants and this was accepted by the RC's, but not by the Orthodox, and you come out with "So ROCOR Is Donatist!"  Then, the following:

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.  we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.  other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

1.  If conditional baptism is not re-baptising someone (the presumption being that one doesn't know if a true baptism actually occurred), then a convert to Orthodoxy from RCism (whose Protestant baptism was accepted by the RC's) getting baptised is also not a case of re-baptising.  Even if Orthodoxy fully accepted RC baptism on a universal scale (which it doesn't), it does not recognise Protestant "sacraments", nor would it recognise (I think) the authority of RC bishops in determining what is and is not OK.  If you thought it through enough, it'd make sense.  You either do not think it through, or you just like to annoy.  "You know this, but you are being very difficult", indeed!  

2.  A minor point that I don't consider all that relevant to the matter, but even back when I thought ROCOR was nuts, I didn't think they were a "fringe group".  HOCNA is a fringe group.  ROCOR is obviously not.  That didn't prevent me from thinking both were nuts a couple of years ago, but I could still distinguish between fringe and normal but nuts.  

3.  Accusing someone or their Church of dabbling in heresy is a serious charge, and you're in no position to wildly fling that about--a), you are not a bishop, and b) you are not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic.  Pray tell, which Church has been dabbling in more heresy?  

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2. What do you think the donatist heresy is? The question about rebaptising was settled a longtime ago.

I answered this, as did others.  

Quote
3. Does it bother you that I said that ROCOR is a finge group?  That is what many orthodox say. I am just repeating what they are saying.

Saying that ROCOR was a fringe group was not at all what bothered me.
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2004, 05:30:14 PM »
Dear RB,

By now, I expect that, even if you don't agree with the position, you will have been exposed at least once to the notion that Orthodox don't regard Roman Catholics as being part of the Body of Christ, or at the very least are agnostic about the question.  See Ambrose's post regarding Donatism.  The charge of Donatism doesn't apply here.  If a cradle Orthodox person, for example, became a Muslim and then came back, and they were re-baptised, then it applies.  

No, I did not miss that you mentioned that other Churches receive RC's by Chrismation, but two things come to mind.  One, barring some sort of conciliar decree explicitly stating how a convert is to be received, it is the bishop's prerogative to determine how this happens.  Two, as a Roman Catholic, you believe that Confirmation/Chrismation also confers an indelible mark upon the soul of the recipient.  How come you are not railing out against the Orthodox for chrismating RC's?  You don't seem consistent.    I didn't take it out of context.  First, I see you (and pretty much only you) talking about how Joe is betraying his principles for cash, comparing him to Judas, etc., and it is clear he is not doing that.  I can only presume that you just like picking on people who are converting to Orthodoxy from RCism because you don't like that.  Then you asked if Joe was baptised in the RCC, he said no because he was baptised by Protestants and this was accepted by the RC's, but not by the Orthodox, and you come out with "So ROCOR Is Donatist!"  Then, the following:

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.  we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.  other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

1.  If conditional baptism is not re-baptising someone (the presumption being that one doesn't know if a true baptism actually occurred), then a convert to Orthodoxy from RCism (whose Protestant baptism was accepted by the RC's) getting baptised is also not a case of re-baptising.  Even if Orthodoxy fully accepted RC baptism on a universal scale (which it doesn't), it does not recognise Protestant "sacraments", nor would it recognise (I think) the authority of RC bishops in determining what is and is not OK.  If you thought it through enough, it'd make sense.  You either do not think it through, or you just like to annoy.  "You know this, but you are being very difficult", indeed!  

2.  A minor point that I don't consider all that relevant to the matter, but even back when I thought ROCOR was nuts, I didn't think they were a "fringe group".  HOCNA is a fringe group.  ROCOR is obviously not.  That didn't prevent me from thinking both were nuts a couple of years ago, but I could still distinguish between fringe and normal but nuts.  

3.  Accusing someone or their Church of dabbling in heresy is a serious charge, and you're in no position to wildly fling that about--a), you are not a bishop, and b) you are not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic.  Pray tell, which Church has been dabbling in more heresy?  I answered this, as did others.  Saying that ROCOR was a fringe group was not at all what bothered me.

I will like to answer your comments point by point, if you do not mind. So that there will not be any confusion. Let me start with the Donatist question. To make my point clearly, would you mind answering the following question?


1. I respectfully disagree with you in your assessment of what the donatist heresy is. Let me ask you a question.

When the East was bogged down by all sorts of Christological heresy for many years (Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism), and left the catholic communion, did your church loose all grace? Where your bishops real bishops? What about the Bishops that were consecrated during this time, where they real bishops?  Was your baptism and Eucharist real?

When exactly did the east get back the grace?  In addition, when the east got back the grace, what was the status of those bishops that were consecrated during the schism? Where they re-concentrated? Where all those people rebaptized?


BTW, what is the status or the ordination, baptism, eucharist of the OO churches and those former orthodox churches that are in schism and not part of the orthodox church? Do these churches have real grace and ordination, baptism and eucharist?

Remember, they are like the roman catholics not part of your communion, the body of christ.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:48:43 PM by romanbyzantium »

Offline theodore

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2004, 06:42:17 PM »
BACK to the topic at hand...  From what I know about the College of the Ozarks, you are much LESS likely to be exposed to things that are objectionable than if you were to attend most State or even Private Colleges and Universities.  I mean, you only have to attend services, what is it,  6 times per semster.  I seriously doubt that that will challenge your faith.   You're also not likely to inundated with blatantly anti-Christian professors and courses at the College of the Ozarks as you would at most universities and colleges in the US.  I'd say go for it.

Offline Ebor

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2004, 12:03:43 AM »
Yes some are.  Some are so close to Orthodoxy, it amazes me they don't break with the anglican communion, organize as a seperate body, and petition the Oecumenical Patriarch.   But I guess that the Anglicna Communion can be a place for them what with the Elizabethean Settleent and all.

Joe Zollars

Why should we break?   I doubt the OP would want us.  (I've read the EOC's account of approaching him.)  One might just be told " become EO/Byzantine" or join the OCA/GOA/AO etc.

Also, in many instances, it's the American Church that's being the problem while those in other countries (Africa, Southeast Asia) and some here holding fast.  So what some are doing is parishes in the US are asking to be under the oversight of African Bishops. One of those, The Most Rev. Peter Akinola, Archbishop of Nigeria is in the forefront of standing up for Creedal Christianity in the Anglican Communtion.

Sorry, Ben.  I don't buy "Demons of Protestantism". It just sounds alarmist and wild.

When are you going to make your decision, Joe?   I'm on tenterhooks hoping that things go well for you.


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Offline David

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2004, 12:11:13 AM »
Theodore, that is also a good point, as most secular schools certainly push secular agendas.  Outside of Hellenic College(who can afford that?) there isn't much other recourse than going to a non-Orthodox college.
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:question in regards to colleges
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2004, 01:35:40 AM »
Excellent points theodore and David.

Ebor, well I have tried calling both the College and Father to get answers from both of them.  Neither phone call worked out particularly well (read I wasn't able to get through to CofO all day and wasn't able to get through to Father all evening).  My phone seems to be doing something weird.   Everytime I call a number, any number, it makes the sound like it is dialing up the internet--but the pc is shut off.  Oy! technology is so confusing.

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