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Author Topic: question in regards to colleges  (Read 10965 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoeZollars
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« on: May 20, 2004, 09:27:27 PM »

Ok, I am asking for some very solicited advice.  

I have gotten a lead on a college where I would not have to pay anything. I would be a third generation student, so would have financial assistance that way and it is a "worker" college (students work for the college while studying and don't pay tuition). There education department (my current major) is considered among the best in the region. To top it off it would be close to family and only about 30-40 minutes from an Old Calander Orthodox Church. It would also help my brother who is attending a college where he pays almost 20 grand a year in tuition alone (he is studying to be a protestant minister--however heretical he may be I don't wish dept on him).

Now for the downside. It is a college affiliated with the Presbyterians and would require me to attend their chapel services six sundays a semester. It would also require I attend religion classes (which may not be a problem as I have already taken Comparitive World Religions and Old Testement Survey).

I am really at a loss, the first part is really good--but I don't know if I should be attending heretical school even with the benefits. I will email Father about it, but meanwhile I am asking for y'alls advice and opinions.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 09:35:43 PM »

Let me guess, College of the Ozarks?  I have a good friend who went there, so your description seems to fit it to a tee.  Assuming that you could just sit through the services, and not receive communion, that might not be such a big deal.
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2004, 09:40:02 PM »

yes it is.  My Paternal Grandmother and father both graduated from there with honors.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2004, 09:52:22 PM »

Dear JoeZollars,
I hope you dont mind some unsolicited advice from a newbie.
I would not hesitate to attend if it is otherwise a good school and you do not need to sign any "statement of faith" that compromises yours. You might also want to discuss your faith up front with the admission people.  Dependent on the brand of Presbyterian (PSCUSA liberals? OP,  EPC, or PCA less so)they may be willing to make additional accomodations. I sincerely hope this helps
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2004, 09:55:04 PM »

thansk for the advice!

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2004, 01:21:41 AM »

Hey....

I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2004, 01:41:55 AM »

I already have.  am just waiting on the response.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2004, 01:47:48 AM »

Quote
I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.

LOL, Dude are you serious. The Demons of protestantism....... laching onto your life......Huh?

I grew up protestant & it's not like that. Once in awhile I'll still go to a protestant church with friends. Seriously, it's not a big deal. At worst, you'll just have to endear very fruity worship music if you want to call it that & a very long sermon which it sounds like it could be very uninspiring since it's presbyterian. Just think of it going to a bussiness seminar, which basically it is with the ministers wearing suits.

Mr. Zollars, it sounds like a great opportunity to me. I really don't think it's that beig of a deal. God will honor your hard work & dedication to better yourself. You also can't beat a free education!!!!  
 Wink
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2004, 02:08:16 AM »

All heresies and schisms are caused by demons, and with every one, comes a powerful demonic force, that can tempt souls to leave the true Church.
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2004, 09:19:44 AM »

FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION?

It's a CHRISTIAN College.

This is a no-brainer.

GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!


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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2004, 09:25:32 AM »

Joe,

Another one to look into would be Berea College in Lexington, KY.  If you're accepted(based on academics and financial need) you get free tuition, room&board, and a laptop.  It is a mainline nondemonational protestant school, but they have an OCF on campus and is nearby a few Orthodox parishes.  www.berea.edu
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2004, 03:28:56 PM »

Hey....

I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.

The Demons associated with Protestantism?!?!? Huh  

I beg your pardon.  At least some of the EO have the  humility to say that they don't know where the Holy Spirit isn't.

Some schisms seem to have happened due to sinful humanity or the people involved being Sure That They Are Right, or people exercising power or cruelty instead of Charity.

Joe-  If you have an opportunity for a good education, and you have a church nearby to give support this could be the right place for you.  

Ebor
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2004, 08:32:58 PM »

Joe -

Since I have heard that you live in Kansas, when you mentioned a Presbyterian college there, I thought you were going to say it was Sterling College.

A boyhood friend of mine went there, a guy who is now a Presbyterian minister.

I haven't heard from him in years, but he was a great person.

Who knows, maybe he's Orthodox by now!

Anyway, I would feel a bit shakey about attending Protestant services on Sundays, but you are checking with your priest, so I'll leave that between you and him and God.

Still, a free edu-ma-cation is nothing to sneeze at, and secular schools are certainly far worse in many cases than just about any Christian college.

The biggest danger you will probably face is some good-looking young Calvinist female!  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2004, 10:02:11 PM »

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that they probably have multiple sunday services.  Perhaps you'd be able to go to liturgy in the morning and go to the chapel in the evening where you can politely space out during the presentation.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2004, 05:35:54 PM »

Yes, this is where good daydreaming skills can come in handy!  

The demons of protestantism, hmmm...

Well, if most protestants were protestant in direct rebellion against the Church, then I think you'd have something there.  It's by far usually a case of not knowing any better and just doing the best you can.  Would God abandon anyone who truly desires and seeks Him?  I'm glad the Church teaches that we don't know where the Church isn't.  

Joe will follow the advice of his spiritual father, of course, and if he does go there it'll be a great opportunity to pray for a lot of people (some of whom will likely ask a lot of questions!).
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2004, 06:50:16 PM »

Ok, I am asking for some very solicited advice.  

I have gotten a lead on a college where I would not have to pay anything. I would be a third generation student, so would have financial assistance that way and it is a "worker" college (students work for the college while studying and don't pay tuition). There education department (my current major) is considered among the best in the region. To top it off it would be close to family and only about 30-40 minutes from an Old Calander Orthodox Church. It would also help my brother who is attending a college where he pays almost 20 grand a year in tuition alone (he is studying to be a protestant minister--however heretical he may be I don't wish dept on him).

Now for the downside. It is a college affiliated with the Presbyterians and would require me to attend their chapel services six sundays a semester. It would also require I attend religion classes (which may not be a problem as I have already taken Comparitive World Religions and Old Testement Survey).

I am really at a loss, the first part is really good--but I don't know if I should be attending heretical school even with the benefits. I will email Father about it, but meanwhile I am asking for y'alls advice and opinions.

Joe Zollars

so you are willing to betray your principal for a few bucks.

Money money moneeeeeeey
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2004, 07:00:05 PM »

No I am not.  That is why I am asking, is it apropriate to attend a heterodox school.  But in addition to the money issue, its education department (my major is Secondary Education) is considered to be at the top of the region and according to some is the best in the nation.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2004, 07:05:17 PM »

No matter what you all say, Satan is real, as are his demons and their tricks. Every evil comes with Satan in full force, to keep you from your true purpose: God. Protestantism holds many heresies as articles of faith, and their churches and foul teachings must be avoided at all costs. Now, that is of course difficult in this crazy world, and there isn't anything wrong with going to a Protestant college, but being required to attend their church services can't be good. Who knows what kind of attacks you coul expirence Joe, but talk to your Spiritual Father, he will know best.
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2004, 07:07:14 PM »

Also, if I undrstand you correctly you will have to attend their services on Sundays, which could prevent you from attending Divine Litrugy at an Orthodox parish. Personally, if I knew Orthodoxy to be the true Church, I would sacrifice anything and everything to get to Divine Liturgy, even a college education.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2004, 07:13:21 PM »

wel yes, but as David pointed out perhaps an evening service where I wore some discreet ear plugs would solve the obligation there.  Also they may dispense me from it entirely as I will be transferring in with over 60 hours and would be regularly attending and participating in services at another Church.  

Presbys are among the most liberal folks in the world, generally speaking and they may no longer have the obligation.  (that obligation is from when my mom and dad went there).

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2004, 07:25:44 PM »

Joe...have you heard back from your Spiritual Father yet?
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2004, 07:39:00 PM »

not yet--still waiting on word.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2004, 07:44:28 PM »

btw, I will have to check, but I think it is inapropriate to refer to him as my Spiritual Father.  He is the priest who made me a Catechumen and who will Baptize me, but Spiritual Father implies something else, or at least seems to do so to me.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2004, 08:02:07 PM »

btw, I will have to check, but I think it is inapropriate to refer to him as my Spiritual Father.  He is the priest who made me a Catechumen and who will Baptize me, but Spiritual Father implies something else, or at least seems to do so to me.

Joe Zollars

Where you not baptized by the catholic church?
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2004, 08:05:46 PM »

no it was a Baptist Baptism that was accepted by the NO chruch where became a member of hte Roman Church.

And even if I was, many ROCOR priests will baptize Romans anyway.

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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2004, 08:29:41 PM »

no it was a Baptist Baptism that was accepted by the NO chruch where became a member of hte Roman Church.

And even if I was, many ROCOR priests will baptize Romans anyway.

Joe Zollars

So ROCOR are donatist!
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2004, 08:31:38 PM »

Since when are Presbys some of the more liberal protestants?  Maybe the PCA or the PCUSA, but definitely not the RPs or the OPC ('Orthodox' Presbyterian Church? - give me a break  Roll Eyes).  I go to Geneva College in Beaver Falls, PA, and it's associated with the RPs.  Some of the professors and the student body are quite ravenously Calvinist, which makes life more than a little difficult for what few EOs there are and the silent majority of RCs on campus.  Sorry.  I tend to rant when I talk about protestants (specifically RPs and their ilk).
Now, about chapels.  Fortunately for this catechumen, Geneva's are on Wednesdays, and they allow you to make up missed credits by reading books and doing summaries on them, which is what I intend on doing.  But, it's a little more difficult for you, obviously.  So, as long as the 'services' aren't in the morning, which I highly doubt they are, I would do what I do when I go: bring earplugs or surreptitous earphones and a Patristic book or something by Dostoevsky.  Or something along those lines.  Tongue
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And now, for a shameless question of my own:  For those of you live in the Pittsburgh/Wheeling/Youngstown area, could you suggest a good school for a (hopefully) soon-to-be-EO to transfer to?  I was thinking Franciscan University of Stubenville, since it's within commuting distance and my aunt teaches there (which may mean a tuition break), but it's a charismatic Catholic school, which to me seems like a very large oxymoron.  Help would be very much appricated, either as a reply or (preferably) as a PM.
Thanks for listening to my bit of shameless latching-on.
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2004, 08:40:44 PM »

Ben, afaik, noone is saying that Satan is not real.  But your assertion about the "Demons of Protestantism" I do not credit.  There's plenty of Evil that comes out of a person's own sin without blaming the Devil for everything. And there has been much Good and Charity that came out of "Protestant" Churches for the love of Christ.

Joe, this could be the way to get out of the small town (that  you've said you want to do), and closer to a parish that God intends for you.  Remember the old joke about the man in the ocean praying for rescue as several vessals stop to get him but he waves them on with "God will rescue me"?  After he drowns, God tells him "I sent you a sail boat and a ocean liner."

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2004, 08:45:27 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2004, 09:47:03 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.

It doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.  Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?  Because if it does, that seems a little iffy to me.
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2004, 09:51:58 PM »

Quote
It doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.

Perhaps you were given incorrect information, it would be best to contact the college for accurate information.

Quote
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.
 

I think you do.

Quote
Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?
 

Not at all. I am not personally involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement, but it isn't what you think it is. I will try to find a link, or a contact you could provide you with more information.
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2004, 09:54:17 PM »

Well....let me clarify I do not think it is like Pentecostal Charistmatic stuff, but I don't know. I will look into it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2004, 09:58:54 PM »

http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm

^ might be of help
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2004, 10:04:12 PM »

There are concepts and doctrines within protestantism that are demonic, no doutb.  Obviously if you are protestant - like some posters here - you do not beleive that to be true, BUT this is afterall an Orthodox message board.  So if Ben expressed a more "traditionalist" Orthodox opinion, I don't understand why there is complaint.  Exposure to heresy can be very dangerous, thus the Holy Fathers were very careful about that, as the canons show.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2004, 10:06:52 PM »

AMEN!

Thank you Nektarios!
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2004, 10:27:29 PM »

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Ben, afaik, noone is saying that Satan is not real.  But your assertion about the "Demons of Protestantism" I do not credit.  There's plenty of Evil that comes out of a person's own sin without blaming the Devil for everything. And there has been much Good and Charity that came out of "Protestant" Churches for the love of Christ.

It's laughable to think that what is at the center of everything Protestant is the Devil. Protestants are very misguided, but from my experience Christ still works through many of them.  I can never bring myself to think like that  from seeing all the good fruits I witnessed by protestants I knew who tried to live faithfully to gospel. Would not Christ choose a good faithful protestant to be in his kingdom over a lackluster RC or Orthodox who just merely claim they know the truth, but have nothing to show for it?Huh  

Quote
t doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.  Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?  Because if it does, that seems a little iffy to me.

Quote
Well....let me clarify I do not think it is like Pentecostal Charistmatic stuff, but I don't know. I will look into it.

I am somewhat familiar with the charismatic renewel movement in the Roman Catholic Church because I went to some meetings & was part of a RC "charismatic" prayer group & bible study for about 1 year. I would say there is alot of similiarites between them & the pentecostals, but thier are also quite a bit of differences also. It is true that RC charismatics beleive in tounges & prophecy, but it is "practiced" much differently than that of the Protestants. Protestants are much more loose with how they deal with "prophetic" words & tounges. It's based much more on "individualism" and it's a free for all for the most part. The RC charismatics beleive that these gifts are only to be practiced as a "community." If a prophetic word is given, it is something that will have a "consensus" among all the members of the community & not just one individual.

Charismatic RC's also tend to be the most "orthodox" group within Catholicism. They have a love for church authority, the Pope, Mary, and all aspects of the RC faith. From my experience also, they are very conservative & seem to be the most active in the Pro life movement. They uterly reject the moral relativism that is gripping the Church and they are very vocal about it. I feel very sorry for them because they are such a minority among a sea of nominal RC's that could care less about thier faith. One RC church about 45 minutes from me has close to 30 home prayer/bible study groups alone & it was all started by a few "charismatic" RC laity in that church that had a zeal for thier faith. With the blessing of their priest, they implemented some programs for people in the church to learn about thier faith more & it spread like wild fire.  I hope this helps out a little. I have only good things to say about this movement within the RC Church.
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2004, 10:36:46 PM »

So ROCOR are donatist!

yeah.....right.

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?  Oh my Rome is Donatist!  please.

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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2004, 10:40:33 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.

are you kidding? they are like the center of it.  That is where they hold the really big charismatic conferences..

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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2004, 10:59:08 PM »

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?

Not anymore, but when they did the conditional baptism was not seen as a second baptism, if the first baptism was valid, but since the first baptism was questionable the priest would say "If you are not already baptized....I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

It is interesting to note that the Catholic Church teaches that *all* baptisms done correctly (using the trinitarian formula) are true Catholic baptisms. However, if the first baptism was questionable for whatever reason, the convert was conditionaly baptized, just in case.
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2004, 11:00:01 PM »

are you kidding? they are like the center of it.  That is where they hold the really big charismatic conferences..

I wonder why this isn't mentioned on their website.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2004, 11:09:54 PM »

yeah.....right.

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?  Oh my Rome is Donatist!  please.

Joe Zollars

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.   we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.   other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

Christ is the master of baptism and all sacraments. This should tell you something.
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2004, 11:10:48 PM »

Nacho...

I am not saying that God doesn't care about Protestants, or that he doesn't have a realtionship with many of them, and I am most certainly not saying everything Protestant is centered around Satan!

I myself was once Protestant, and I am thankful for those Protestants who introduced me to Christ, but Protestantism is a heresy, period. And the Fathers of the Church taught that all Heresy is always dangerous for the soul.
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2004, 11:12:47 PM »

There are concepts and doctrines within protestantism that are demonic, no doutb.  Obviously if you are protestant - like some posters here - you do not beleive that to be true, BUT this is afterall an Orthodox message board.  So if Ben expressed a more "traditionalist" Orthodox opinion, I don't understand why there is complaint.  Exposure to heresy can be very dangerous, thus the Holy Fathers were very careful about that, as the canons show.  

Well, I wonder if Ben is expressing a more "traditionalist" RC opinion.  And "Demons of Protestantism" is offensive and silly and unsupported.  It comes across as a canard and an insult. It also reminds me of things out of Jack Chick comics.

 Also, as an Anglican I refuse to be lumped together in an amorphous blob called "Protestantism" with for example JW's and Oneness groups.  

You say "no doubt" there are demonic concepts and doctrines that are "demonic" Like what?"

Thanks, Nacho and Countrymouse for your support.

Ebor
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2004, 11:12:49 PM »

And RB you should know that before the post-Vat II reforms, most converts to Catholcism from Protestantism were conditionaly baptized.
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2004, 11:14:45 PM »

Nacho...

I am not saying that God doesn't care about Protestants, or that he doesn't have a realtionship with many of them, and I am most certainly not saying everything Protestant is centered around Satan!

Well, it sure read like that.  

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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2004, 11:17:57 PM »

And RB you should know that before the post-Vat II reforms, most converts to Catholcism from Protestantism were conditionaly baptized.

conditionally baptized does not mean re-baptisim.

I was condionally baptized by my priest at saint agnes in NYC. an I am sure that I was baptised as a baby.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2004, 11:22:36 PM »

Quote
Well, I wonder if Ben is expressing a more "traditionalist" RC opinion.


Of course I am, however in this case the traditional Catholic opinion differs very little from the traditional Orthodox opinion.

Quote
And "Demons of Protestantism" is offensive and silly and unsupported.
 

I am sorry if it is offensive, and I really didn't mean to offend you, but there is no heresy, schism, or sin without Satan involved. This does not mean us humans have no free will or that we can blame everything on Satan, but every sin we commit is presented to us by demons, and when we fail and sin, we have been used by Satan to lash out against God. Heresy is a very dangerous thing, and is something that must be avoided at all costs. Heresy is not the work of God, period. And I am sorry, but Protestantism teaches and embraces serious heresy, and this includes *all* Protestant denominations.

Quote
Also, as an Anglican I refuse to be lumped together in an amorphous blob called "Protestantism" with for example JW's and Oneness groups.  


AFAIK, no one here said JW's were Protestant. I don' think they are even Christians!

Quote
You say "no doubt" there are demonic concepts and doctrines that are "demonic" Like what?"

Nektarios can speak for himself, but IMHO it depends on the denomination, for some are much more heretical than others. Protestantism is a broad term that includes a great variation of heretical ideas.
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2004, 11:24:17 PM »

I know, RB, that conditional Baptism is not the same as re-baptism, did you even read my post about conditional baptism?

If you were baptized, as a baby, in the Catholic Church, you preist made a serious error in conditionaly baptizing you.
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2004, 11:33:22 PM »

I know, RB, that conditional Baptism is not the same as re-baptism, did you even read my post about conditional baptism?

If you were baptized, as a baby, in the Catholic Church, you preist made a serious error in conditionaly baptizing you.

He coditionally baptized me because I could not produce my baptismal certificate which is somewhere in spain. I was never confirmed as a chld and I needed the certificate. He asked me to contact my family in spain to get me the certificate but unfortunately they no onger live in the town where I was baptized and for them to get their would have been a hardship.

so he condtionally baptised me.
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2004, 11:39:30 PM »

He coditionally baptized me because I could not produce my baptismal certificate which is somewhere in spain. I was never confirmed as a chld and I needed the certificate. He asked me to contact my family in spain to get me the certificate but unfortunately they no onger live in the town where I was baptized and for them to get their would have been a hardship.

so he condtionally baptised me.

Ah ok....I am sorry, I didn't have all the facts...please forgive me.
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2004, 11:47:14 PM »

Ah ok....I am sorry, I didn't have all the facts...please forgive me.

Ben,

there is nothing to forgive. I thought that I included that piece of information.
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« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2004, 11:47:30 PM »

Ok, I am asking for some very solicited advice.  

I have gotten a lead on a college where I would not have to pay anything. I would be a third generation student, so would have financial assistance that way and it is a "worker" college (students work for the college while studying and don't pay tuition). There education department (my current major) is considered among the best in the region. To top it off it would be close to family and only about 30-40 minutes from an Old Calander Orthodox Church. It would also help my brother who is attending a college where he pays almost 20 grand a year in tuition alone (he is studying to be a protestant minister--however heretical he may be I don't wish dept on him).

Now for the downside. It is a college affiliated with the Presbyterians and would require me to attend their chapel services six sundays a semester. It would also require I attend religion classes (which may not be a problem as I have already taken Comparitive World Religions and Old Testement Survey).

I am really at a loss, the first part is really good--but I don't know if I should be attending heretical school even with the benefits. I will email Father about it, but meanwhile I am asking for y'alls advice and opinions.

Joe Zollars

FREE TUITION?

So long as you don't have to take communion there...I dare say attending their service will only deepen your appreciation of Orthodox Liturgy. Imagine inviting a bunch of new college friends to Pascha! That will blow them away!

Go for it!

Exposure to this brand of Christianity should only serve to strengthen your own faith. It is also an opportunity to bare witness to people who would otherwise have no exposure to Orthodox Christianity!

My Parish is located literally right across the railroad tracks from an extremely conservative nationally known evangleical college....This has allowed for witness to people who otherwise might never have been exposed to Orthodox Christianity.


And as far as "demons" and other such nonsense.....Well as Orthodox Christians we might not believe other Christian Churches are correct...we can not however judge them as 100% wrong either. Grin


Go for it Joe!!!
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« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2004, 11:51:18 PM »

FREE TUITION?

So long as you don't have to take communion there...I dare say attending their service will only deepen your appreciation of Orthodox Liturgy. Imagine inviting a bunch of new college friends to Pascha! That will blow them away!

Go for it!

Exposure to this brand of Christianity should only serve to strengthen your own faith. It is also an opportunity to bare witness to people who would otherwise have no exposure to Orthodox Christianity!

My Parish is located literally right across the railroad tracks from an extremely conservative nationally known evangleical college....This has allowed for witness to people who otherwise might never have been exposed to Orthodox Christianity.


And as far as "demons" and other such nonsense.....Well as Orthodox Christians we might not believe other Christian Churches are correct...we can not however judge them as 100% wrong either. Grin


Go for it Joe!!!

so he should betray his principle for money/free tuition.?

If I was him I wouldn't betray my principles. I would take out a student loan. This reminds me of Judas.

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« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2004, 11:58:32 PM »



And as far as "demons" and other such nonsense.....Well as Orthodox Christians we might not believe other Christian Churches are correct...we can not however judge them as 100% wrong either. Grin



Demons are not "nonsense". My friend, evil is real, as is Satan and all of his works. I am not saying Protestantism is 100% wrong and evil, but Protestantism is founded upon heretical doctrines, that are not only contrary to Roman Catholic teaching, but also Orthodox teaching.

"Keep yourselves away from those evil plants that Jesus Christ does not tend. For they are not the planting of the Father. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop......If anyone walks according to a strange opinion, he does not agree with the Passion."

"How much more will this be the case with anyone who by wicked doctrine corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such a one becomes defiled. He will go away into everlasting fire, and so will everyone that listens to him."

 - Ignatius (c. 105)
 
"We call Heretics "empty", for they are destitute of the counsels of God and of the traditions of Christ. Their dogmas originate with themselves and are therfore bitter - like the wild almond." - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)

"Let us rather be mindful of the sayings of the Lord, and of the letters of the Apostles. For they have told us berforehand that there will be heresies. And, in anticipation, they have given us warnings to avoid them." - Tertullian (c. 197)

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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2004, 12:45:22 AM »

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.   we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.   other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

Christ is the master of baptism and all sacraments. This should tell you something.

oh please.  Yes Romans did baptize people before the V2 reforms.  And for that matter, many in so called "regular" Orthodox Churches do baptize converts.  I know there is at least one OCA Priest for instance stating that someone who has not been baptized using the proper formula and by triple immersion, than the person is just plain unbaptized and needs to be Baptized in order to become Orthodox.  

And even if a so called "regular" Orthodox church recieved someone without "re"Baptizing them,  then it would not be through just Chrismation but by a process known as Eikonomia by which the Orthodox Church fills in the grace missing from a heterodox baptism.  No so called "regular" Orthodox who knows the theology would say that a heterodox baptism was ostensibly a true baptism.  Now, the Orthodox Church does not have a formal position on this, but many believe that heterodox baptisms accomplish little more than getting wet.  And even in almost all so called "regular" Orthodox Churches one can bypass the whole Eikonomia stuff and just request to be Baptized.

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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2004, 12:46:36 AM »

oh and one more thing RB, ROCOR is not fringe.  ROCOR is like the largest Russian group in this country and is generally recognized by all ORthodox as being ORthodox.  Its also in communion with the Serbian Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2004, 12:48:33 AM »

RB, what "principles" would Joe be betraying by attending this college.  It does not require him to swear allegience to the founding denomination.  It does not require him to join the said denomination.  It does not require him to take theology/religion courses.  Being in the chapel somehow betrays principles? Presbyterian Mind control devices, mayhap? Would such principles be betrayed if Joe attends a wedding or funeral in a Presbyterian Chapel?  

When the point of the exercise is a first rate education in a chosen field with an EO parish much closer then is the case currently for Joe, why couldn't God use this school to Joe's benefit?

Ebor
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2004, 12:51:09 AM »

oh please.  Yes Romans did baptize people before the V2 reforms.  And for that matter, many in so called "regular" Orthodox Churches do baptize converts.  I know there is at least one OCA Priest for instance stating that someone who has not been baptized using the proper formula and by triple immersion, than the person is just plain unbaptized and needs to be Baptized in order to become Orthodox.  

And even if a so called "regular" Orthodox church recieved someone without "re"Baptizing them,  then it would not be through just Chrismation but by a process known as Eikonomia by which the Orthodox Church fills in the grace missing from a heterodox baptism.  No so called "regular" Orthodox who knows the theology would say that a heterodox baptism was ostensibly a true baptism.  Now, the Orthodox Church does not have a formal position on this, but many believe that heterodox baptisms accomplish little more than getting wet.  And even in almost all so called "regular" Orthodox Churches one can bypass the whole Eikonomia stuff and just request to be Baptized.

Joe Zollars

umm.. I thought that christ was the master of baptism and all sacraments. I didn't know that there are orthodox churches that need to fill the missing grace that jesus could give. I didn't know that jesus' grace was lacking?
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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2004, 12:52:57 AM »

oh and one more thing RB, ROCOR is not fringe.  ROCOR is like the largest Russian group in this country and is generally recognized by all ORthodox as being ORthodox.  Its also in communion with the Serbian Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

Joe Zollars

I thought that ROCOR was schimatic? that they were not recognized by some churches. or was that OCA? I need to
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2004, 12:55:11 AM »

so he should betray his principle for money/free tuition.?

If I was him I wouldn't betray my principles. I would take out a student loan. This reminds me of Judas.



I am not and would not betray my principles.  I would not go to the college for the free tuition.  I would be going to the college becuase  it literally is the best for my major in the area, and among the best in the country according to a great many.  

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« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2004, 01:00:21 AM »

umm.. I thought that christ was the master of baptism and all sacraments. I didn't know that there are orthodox churches that need to fill the missing grace that jesus could give. I didn't know that jesus' grace was lacking?

because many of us are unsure whether or not Catholics even have grace.  Most all are quite sure that Rome does not have the fullness of Grace as it is in heresy.  If heresy had no effect on grace, there would be no need for a person to convert from protestantism to catholicism or orthodoxy.  

You seem to be suffering under a very western approach to this subject.  Many Orthodox, including myself as a lowly catechumen, would hold that grace-filled mysteries are not guaranteed outside the Orthodox Church.  There is but one Mystery, the Church and what she does.  

By Eikonomia the Church fills in whatever grace may be missing from the heterodox baptism.  it is the same thought pattern as with conditional baptism.  

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« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2004, 01:03:28 AM »

I thought that ROCOR was schimatic? that they were not recognized by some churches. or was that OCA? I need to

ROCOR is generally recognized by all as being Orthodox, although there are a few kooks here and there in groups such as the GOA and OCA and AOA who do not recognize ROCOR as being Orthodox.  

OCA is viewed with suspicion by some (including the Oecumenical Patriarch) because it was in schism for a great many years (it originally broke from ROCOR) before coming under the Omophorion of the Patriarch of Moscow and being granted Autocephaly.  

Most however recognize the OCA as being Orthodox.  The difference is whehter or not it is recognized as a synod in its own right or merely the american branch of the MP.  

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« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2004, 01:08:32 AM »

BTW, I just have to agree with Ebor 100%.  Anglicans by and large cannot be described as Protestants, at least not all of them.  Some cannot even be described as Christians using the most liberal use of the term as possible.  and then some cannot be described by the word heathen or the word protestant.  

Since the Elizabethean Settlement, it has become increasingly difficult to lump all Anglicans together, let alone lump Anglicans with the rest of Protestantism.   Personally in my view, there are four general groupings in the Christian World, namely Orthodoxy, the Roman Church (and its dependencies), Anglicanism (and its dependencies) and Protestantism (and its vast spectrum).  Now before a certain member of a real fringe group reads this and starts thinking I believe in the branch theory, I do not as evidenced by my ardent support of doing away with the process of Oeikonomia entirely and recieving all converts by Baptism.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2004, 01:14:14 AM »

RB, when I met with an OCA priest he told me I would be baptized in his church if I become Orthodox, because in my Protestant Baptism, I was only dunked once, and despite the fact that I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the fact that I was only dunked only once made the baptism invalid. And OCA is a mainstream as you can get with Orthodoxy.

As for ROCOR, I have yet to find an Orthodox Christian who believes ROCOR not to be Orthodox. And I have only found a few who believe it to be schismatic, but this was due their their ignorance on the issue. As for OCA, if I am correct it did break off from ROCOR, and was schismatic.
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« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2004, 01:20:26 AM »

because many of us are unsure whether or not Catholics even have grace.

Joe....

Every Orthodox priest I have spoken with (with the exception of Fr. George) were sure that Catholics have grace.
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« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2004, 02:35:51 AM »

Demons(c. 197)



Oh I do not deny the existence fo Satan and his demons....what I find to be "nonsense" is you admonishing Joe about the "demons" of protestant services...come on.


There's some pretty scary stuff going on in some protestant denominations...Heck there's scary stiff going on in the RCC and sopme Orthodox Parishes I m sure.....but I think your perspective on this is a bit "over the top".
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« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2004, 03:36:47 AM »

well Ben, many Orthodox believe Romans to have Grace.  (I am personally unsure on the matter and leave it up to my priest and vladyka)  But I have yet to come across more than five who would go so far as to say that Romans have the fullness of Grace and 100% grace-filled Mysteries.  Most believe that while some grace exists in rome, for the full enchilada you must be Orthodox.  I am inclined to agree, but as stated above am unsure as to my own position.  

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2004, 07:37:06 AM »

BTW, I just have to agree with Ebor 100%.  Anglicans by and large cannot be described as Protestants, at least not all of them.  Some cannot even be described as Christians using the most liberal use of the term as possible.  and then some cannot be described by the word heathen or the word protestant.  

Thank you, Joe!  (Asssuming that I read correctly and you mean that *some* of the Anglicans *are* Christian  Smiley )  It was getting discouraging.  

Ebor
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« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2004, 02:49:18 PM »

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.   we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.   other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

Dear RB,

After reading your latest remarks, culminating in the remarks above, it is becoming clear to me that my initial opinion of you, as an individual interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but with certain linguistic issues which make it hard for you to express what you are really getting at without unintentionally offending people, was wrong.  You better watch out, buddy, because you're on thin ice.  You pipe in with cheap shots at the Church, and when people call you on it, you plead sincerity and throw it back at them; I was willing to entertain that before, but not anymore.  You're here merely to be a pest.  Very well.  

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Christ is the master of baptism and all sacraments. This should tell you something.

It doesn't tell me anything at all, since it is not at all clear that Christ is with the Roman Catholic Church.  

I can be polemical, too.
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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2004, 04:00:46 PM »

Ebor....

No one here said the Anglicans wern't Christians. You can be a heretic and a Christian. Protestantism is heretical Christianity, a twisted and heretical form of Christianity.
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« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2004, 04:08:21 PM »

Thank you, Joe!  (Asssuming that I read correctly and you mean that *some* of the Anglicans *are* Christian  Smiley )  It was getting discouraging.  

Ebor

Yes some are.  Some are so close to Orthodoxy, it amazes me they don't break with the anglican communion, organize as a seperate body, and petition the Oecumenical Patriarch.   But I guess that the Anglicna Communion can be a place for them what with the Elizabethean Settleent and all.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2004, 04:10:59 PM »

Dear RB,

After reading your latest remarks, culminating in the remarks above, it is becoming clear to me that my initial opinion of you, as an individual interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but with certain linguistic issues which make it hard for you to express what you are really getting at without unintentionally offending people, was wrong.  You better watch out, buddy, because you're on thin ice.  You pipe in with cheap shots at the Church, and when people call you on it, you plead sincerity and throw it back at them; I was willing to entertain that before, but not anymore.  You're here merely to be a pest.  Very well.  It doesn't tell me anything at all, since it is not at all clear that Christ is with the Roman Catholic Church.  

I can be polemical, too.  

what are you talking about ? what cheap shots?

1. Does it bother you, me saying that if ROCOR rebaptize people it is dabbling in the donatist heresy? and if you missed it,I said that other orthodox churches recieve catholics by christmation(sp). So no, I was not taking a ceap shop at any church.

It is most unfortunate that you took my comment out of context. I was comparing/contrasting the practice of rebaptizing to the settlement of the donatist heresy. That is all.

2. What do you think the donatist heresy is? The question about rebaptising was settled a longtime ago.

3. Does it bother you that I said that ROCOR is a finge group?  That is what many orthodox say. I am just repeating what they are saying.


Just tell me not to question anything about orthodox.







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« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2004, 04:25:29 PM »

RB,

Sometimes you can be offensive, but I really don't know if you mean it, or if you are just sincere. People around here can be a little sensitive, but try to be careful.
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« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2004, 04:27:06 PM »

RB,

Sometimes you can be offensive, but I really don't know if you mean it, or if you are just sincere. People around here can be a little sensitive, but try to be careful.

Do you think what I said in regards to the donatist heresy was offensive?
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« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2004, 04:32:24 PM »

Not really, but I don't think you would have made such a comment if you understood Orthodoxy, and the Orthodox position on baptism and grace. Perhaps it is your ignorance that offends some here.
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« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2004, 04:41:30 PM »

Not really, but I don't think you would have made such a comment if you understood Orthodoxy, and the Orthodox position on baptism and grace. Perhaps it is your ignorance that offends some here.

YOu think Shocked

I think that it is a case of don't question orthodoxy. which is fine. They only have to say so.

btw, I do understand orthodoxy. I when I don't understand something, I ask for clarification. But then i get accussed of having an agenda.

people always want to write everything of with :" you just don't understand.. "
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« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2004, 04:45:22 PM »

well, RB it is becuase you don't understand as evidenced by your posts and objections to Orthodoxy, which most of the ORthodox I have talked to find laughable.

ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2004, 04:52:12 PM »

well, RB it is becuase you don't understand as evidenced by your posts and objections to Orthodoxy, which most of the ORthodox I have talked to find laughable.

ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one

Joe Zollars

what don't I understand about orthodoxy, joe?

Come on joe, you know that there are orthodox that consider ROCOR to be a fringe fanatical group. Don't act like if they don't exist because we both know that they do.

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« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2004, 04:56:26 PM »

Romanbyzantium,

The Donatist heresy raised the issue of those who had been baptised in the Church, but had susequently apostasized.

That is not the same issue as is raised by what ROCOR and many other Orthodox do when they insist on the baptism of former Catholics, etc.

 Those Orthodox who insist on such baptisms do not recognize Roman Catholicism as part of the Apostolic and Catholic Church, and do not, therefore, regard the sacraments carried out by Roman Catholic priests as valid.  In other words, they do not believe they are "re-baptising," because they do not believe those catachists were ever truly baptised in the first place.

That position may be hard for Roman Catholics to hear (just as it is hard for me to hear Roman Catholics describe the Orthodox as "schismatics"), but the position is generally not intended as a personal insult.

That said, I do not personally question the judgment of my Archbishop, who generally insists that anyone baptised with water according to the traditional Trinitarian formula be received through Chrismation.

While my jurisdiction generally disagrees with ROCOR on this question, I do not think the matter is self-evident, or that it is fair to belittle those who embrace a position different than our own.
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« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2004, 05:00:05 PM »

good post Ambrose!

yes there are people who consider ROCOR to be a fringe group, but they are few and far between.  There are more people who consider OCA  a fringe group (including the Oecumenical Patriarch)  given its long haitus in Schism and then getting autocephaly almost immediatly upon being recieved under the Omophorion of hte ROC-MP.

Joe Zollars

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« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2004, 05:02:33 PM »

Romanbyzantium,

The Donatist heresy raised the issue of those who had been baptised in the Church, but had susequently apostasized.

That is not the same issue as is raised by what ROCOR and many other Orthodox do when they insist on the baptism of former Catholics, etc.

 Those Orthodox who insist on such baptisms do not recognize Roman Catholicism as part of the Apostolic and Catholic Church, and do not, therefore, regard the sacraments carried out by Roman Catholic priests as valid.  In other words, they do not believe they are "re-baptising," because they do not believe those catachists were ever truly baptised in the first place.

That position may be hard for Roman Catholics to hear (just as it is hard for me to hear Roman Catholics describe the Orthodox as "schismatics"), but the position is generally not intended as a personal insult.

That said, I do not personally question the judgment of my Archbishop, who generally insists that anyone baptised with water according to the traditional Trinitarian formula be received through Chrismation.

While my jurisdiction generally disagrees with ROCOR on this question, I do not think the matter is self-evident, or that it is fair to belittle those who embrace a position different than our own.

To which I responded that " Christ is the master of baptism and all the sacraments" The donatist heresy is very interesting reading indeed.

another thing. when the east was Monophysite, were their priest graceless, were their eucharist graceless, etc.

did they know that they were not part of the church. did they know that their baptism was not valid. when exactly did the orthodox get the grace back?
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« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2004, 05:05:04 PM »

good post Ambrose!

yes there are people who consider ROCOR to be a fringe group, but they are few and far between.  There are more people who consider OCA  a fringe group (including the Oecumenical Patriarch)  given its long haitus in Schism and then getting autocephaly almost immediatly upon being recieved under the Omophorion of hte ROC-MP.

Joe Zollars

Joe Zollars

Notice how again you changed your story.

I posted that some orthodox consider ROCOR to be a gringe group. You responded with the following:"ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one"

Now that Ambrose came into play, you change your story to: " yes there are people who consider ROCOR to be a fringe group, but they are few and far between"

So, which one is it, Joe?
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« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2004, 05:05:53 PM »

It is not Donatism to baptize someone who had never been Baptized in the Church.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2004, 05:06:44 PM »

what are you talking about ? what cheap shots?

1. Does it bother you, me saying that if ROCOR rebaptize people it is dabbling in the donatist heresy? and if you missed it,I said that other orthodox churches recieve catholics by christmation(sp). So no, I was not taking a ceap shop at any church.

It is most unfortunate that you took my comment out of context. I was comparing/contrasting the practice of rebaptizing to the settlement of the donatist heresy. That is all.

2. What do you think the donatist heresy is? The question about rebaptising was settled a longtime ago.

3. Does it bother you that I said that ROCOR is a finge group?  That is what many orthodox say. I am just repeating what they are saying.


Just tell me not to question anything about orthodox.









For proabably at least the third time, I have yet to see you apologize or act in a humble way about ANYTHING or ANYONE on this forum.  Respect the Moderators and their rules.  They run the forum and can kick you out an anytime.
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« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2004, 05:08:36 PM »

please I never denied that there were people who thought like that and if you had bothered to actually read the posts earlier in this thread you would know that I have even admitted it to be so, but such people are always laughable in my opinion and are few and far between.  You could ask all the OCA people on this forum if they thought that ROCOR was a fringe group and not Orthodox.  Most, it seeems to me at least, would laugh that off.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2004, 05:12:04 PM »

For proabably at least the third time, I have yet to see you apologize or act in a humble way about ANYTHING or ANYONE on this forum.  Respect the Moderators and their rules.  They run the forum and can kick you out an anytime.

Elisha,

what have I done? please show me?

I do respect the moderators and their rules. If I am goint to be accussed of something then I should be able to see what I did wrong.

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« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2004, 05:14:38 PM »

It is not Donatism to baptize someone who had never been Baptized in the Church.

Joe Zollars

Then pray tell what was the donatist heresy all about.

Those people apostatized from the church. they were out of the church. just like some orthodox regard us catholics. what makes them any different than us. according to you we both apostatized.
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« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2004, 05:17:06 PM »

please I never denied that there were people who thought like that and if you had bothered to actually read the posts earlier in this thread you would know that I have even admitted it to be so, but such people are always laughable in my opinion and are few and far between.  You could ask all the OCA people on this forum if they thought that ROCOR was a fringe group and not Orthodox.  Most, it seeems to me at least, would laugh that off.

Joe Zollars

Then explain this comment of yours:  "ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one"
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« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2004, 05:35:47 PM »

RB,

Hmmm I'm usually an observer on these types of threads (and most for that matter Smiley), but I'm pretty sure JoeZollars addressed his comment in the very same post you quoted:

Quote
Quote from: JoeZollars on Today at 05:08:36 PM
please I never denied that there were people who thought like that and if you had bothered to actually read the posts earlier in this thread you would know that I have even admitted it to be so, but such people are always laughable in my opinion and are few and far between.  You could ask all the OCA people on this forum if they thought that ROCOR was a fringe group and not Orthodox.  Most, it seeems to me at least, would laugh that off.

Joe Zollars
 
 

Then explain this comment of yours:  "ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one"

If you notice, in Joe's opinion, people who view ROCOR as a fringe group, though they do exist few and far between, are "laughable." He goes on to say that most OCA Orthodox he knows, it seems to him, would "laugh that off." Now, call me crazy, but I think Joe has fully addressed what he meant when he said "ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one," so there is nothing for Joe to explain.

I assure you, I am not being obnoxious by pointing this out, only trying to stop the problem before it gets bigger than it already is, and all over miscommunication.

:::my humble attempt at peace-making:::

Smiley
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« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2004, 05:47:20 PM »

RB,

Hmmm I'm usually an observer on these types of threads (and most for that matter Smiley), but I'm pretty sure JoeZollars addressed his comment in the very same post you quoted:If you notice, in Joe's opinion, people who view ROCOR as a fringe group, though they do exist few and far between, are "laughable." He goes on to say that most OCA Orthodox he knows, it seems to him, would "laugh that off." Now, call me crazy, but I think Joe has fully addressed what he meant when he said "ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one," so there is nothing for Joe to explain.

I assure you, I am not being obnoxious by pointing this out, only trying to stop the problem before it gets bigger than it already is, and all over miscommunication.

:::my humble attempt at peace-making:::

Smiley

Of course Donna, that was after ambrose gave his view on the matter. His first post to me expressed his feelings about ROCOR not being a fringe group. That is why he said ""ROCOR a fringe group? I am still laughing over this one"


He changed it after ambrose came in.  If he clearly meant what he said on subsequent posts he would have stated it on the post addressed to me.  But he did because it was so laughable that some orthodox consider rocor a fringe group.
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« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2004, 09:30:14 PM »

I did not change my story.  I just didn't feel it necessary to go into any more detail earlier.  

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« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2004, 09:52:29 PM »

RB may be right, you might be changing you story Joe.
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« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2004, 10:07:10 PM »

what?  I have not changed my story.  Put the two posts  up right next to each other and you can see this.  It is just in the first post I did not see the need to waste everyone's time wiht the details.

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« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2004, 10:09:35 PM »

as explained in both posts, I find it laughable when people say that ROCOR is a fringe group given my previous experience with actual fringe groups.  As more detaily explained in teh second post, I find it laughable when Orthodox think this as I find it laughable when RB believes this.  That's just the way I see it.

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« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2004, 03:20:23 PM »

1. Does it bother you, me saying that if ROCOR rebaptize people it is dabbling in the donatist heresy? and if you missed it,I said that other orthodox churches recieve catholics by christmation(sp). So no, I was not taking a ceap shop at any church.

Dear RB,

By now, I expect that, even if you don't agree with the position, you will have been exposed at least once to the notion that Orthodox don't regard Roman Catholics as being part of the Body of Christ, or at the very least are agnostic about the question.  See Ambrose's post regarding Donatism.  The charge of Donatism doesn't apply here.  If a cradle Orthodox person, for example, became a Muslim and then came back, and they were re-baptised, then it applies.  

No, I did not miss that you mentioned that other Churches receive RC's by Chrismation, but two things come to mind.  One, barring some sort of conciliar decree explicitly stating how a convert is to be received, it is the bishop's prerogative to determine how this happens.  Two, as a Roman Catholic, you believe that Confirmation/Chrismation also confers an indelible mark upon the soul of the recipient.  How come you are not railing out against the Orthodox for chrismating RC's?  You don't seem consistent.    

Quote
It is most unfortunate that you took my comment out of context. I was comparing/contrasting the practice of rebaptizing to the settlement of the donatist heresy. That is all.

I didn't take it out of context.  First, I see you (and pretty much only you) talking about how Joe is betraying his principles for cash, comparing him to Judas, etc., and it is clear he is not doing that.  I can only presume that you just like picking on people who are converting to Orthodoxy from RCism because you don't like that.  Then you asked if Joe was baptised in the RCC, he said no because he was baptised by Protestants and this was accepted by the RC's, but not by the Orthodox, and you come out with "So ROCOR Is Donatist!"  Then, the following:

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.  we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.  other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

1.  If conditional baptism is not re-baptising someone (the presumption being that one doesn't know if a true baptism actually occurred), then a convert to Orthodoxy from RCism (whose Protestant baptism was accepted by the RC's) getting baptised is also not a case of re-baptising.  Even if Orthodoxy fully accepted RC baptism on a universal scale (which it doesn't), it does not recognise Protestant "sacraments", nor would it recognise (I think) the authority of RC bishops in determining what is and is not OK.  If you thought it through enough, it'd make sense.  You either do not think it through, or you just like to annoy.  "You know this, but you are being very difficult", indeed!  

2.  A minor point that I don't consider all that relevant to the matter, but even back when I thought ROCOR was nuts, I didn't think they were a "fringe group".  HOCNA is a fringe group.  ROCOR is obviously not.  That didn't prevent me from thinking both were nuts a couple of years ago, but I could still distinguish between fringe and normal but nuts.  

3.  Accusing someone or their Church of dabbling in heresy is a serious charge, and you're in no position to wildly fling that about--a), you are not a bishop, and b) you are not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic.  Pray tell, which Church has been dabbling in more heresy?  

Quote
2. What do you think the donatist heresy is? The question about rebaptising was settled a longtime ago.

I answered this, as did others.  

Quote
3. Does it bother you that I said that ROCOR is a finge group?  That is what many orthodox say. I am just repeating what they are saying.

Saying that ROCOR was a fringe group was not at all what bothered me.
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« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2004, 05:30:14 PM »

Dear RB,

By now, I expect that, even if you don't agree with the position, you will have been exposed at least once to the notion that Orthodox don't regard Roman Catholics as being part of the Body of Christ, or at the very least are agnostic about the question.  See Ambrose's post regarding Donatism.  The charge of Donatism doesn't apply here.  If a cradle Orthodox person, for example, became a Muslim and then came back, and they were re-baptised, then it applies.  

No, I did not miss that you mentioned that other Churches receive RC's by Chrismation, but two things come to mind.  One, barring some sort of conciliar decree explicitly stating how a convert is to be received, it is the bishop's prerogative to determine how this happens.  Two, as a Roman Catholic, you believe that Confirmation/Chrismation also confers an indelible mark upon the soul of the recipient.  How come you are not railing out against the Orthodox for chrismating RC's?  You don't seem consistent.    I didn't take it out of context.  First, I see you (and pretty much only you) talking about how Joe is betraying his principles for cash, comparing him to Judas, etc., and it is clear he is not doing that.  I can only presume that you just like picking on people who are converting to Orthodoxy from RCism because you don't like that.  Then you asked if Joe was baptised in the RCC, he said no because he was baptised by Protestants and this was accepted by the RC's, but not by the Orthodox, and you come out with "So ROCOR Is Donatist!"  Then, the following:

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.  we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.  other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

1.  If conditional baptism is not re-baptising someone (the presumption being that one doesn't know if a true baptism actually occurred), then a convert to Orthodoxy from RCism (whose Protestant baptism was accepted by the RC's) getting baptised is also not a case of re-baptising.  Even if Orthodoxy fully accepted RC baptism on a universal scale (which it doesn't), it does not recognise Protestant "sacraments", nor would it recognise (I think) the authority of RC bishops in determining what is and is not OK.  If you thought it through enough, it'd make sense.  You either do not think it through, or you just like to annoy.  "You know this, but you are being very difficult", indeed!  

2.  A minor point that I don't consider all that relevant to the matter, but even back when I thought ROCOR was nuts, I didn't think they were a "fringe group".  HOCNA is a fringe group.  ROCOR is obviously not.  That didn't prevent me from thinking both were nuts a couple of years ago, but I could still distinguish between fringe and normal but nuts.  

3.  Accusing someone or their Church of dabbling in heresy is a serious charge, and you're in no position to wildly fling that about--a), you are not a bishop, and b) you are not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic.  Pray tell, which Church has been dabbling in more heresy?  I answered this, as did others.  Saying that ROCOR was a fringe group was not at all what bothered me.

I will like to answer your comments point by point, if you do not mind. So that there will not be any confusion. Let me start with the Donatist question. To make my point clearly, would you mind answering the following question?


1. I respectfully disagree with you in your assessment of what the donatist heresy is. Let me ask you a question.

When the East was bogged down by all sorts of Christological heresy for many years (Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism), and left the catholic communion, did your church loose all grace? Where your bishops real bishops? What about the Bishops that were consecrated during this time, where they real bishops?  Was your baptism and Eucharist real?

When exactly did the east get back the grace?  In addition, when the east got back the grace, what was the status of those bishops that were consecrated during the schism? Where they re-concentrated? Where all those people rebaptized?


BTW, what is the status or the ordination, baptism, eucharist of the OO churches and those former orthodox churches that are in schism and not part of the orthodox church? Do these churches have real grace and ordination, baptism and eucharist?

Remember, they are like the roman catholics not part of your communion, the body of christ.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2004, 05:48:43 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
theodore
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« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2004, 06:42:17 PM »

BACK to the topic at hand...  From what I know about the College of the Ozarks, you are much LESS likely to be exposed to things that are objectionable than if you were to attend most State or even Private Colleges and Universities.  I mean, you only have to attend services, what is it,  6 times per semster.  I seriously doubt that that will challenge your faith.   You're also not likely to inundated with blatantly anti-Christian professors and courses at the College of the Ozarks as you would at most universities and colleges in the US.  I'd say go for it.
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« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2004, 12:03:43 AM »

Yes some are.  Some are so close to Orthodoxy, it amazes me they don't break with the anglican communion, organize as a seperate body, and petition the Oecumenical Patriarch.   But I guess that the Anglicna Communion can be a place for them what with the Elizabethean Settleent and all.

Joe Zollars

Why should we break?   I doubt the OP would want us.  (I've read the EOC's account of approaching him.)  One might just be told " become EO/Byzantine" or join the OCA/GOA/AO etc.

Also, in many instances, it's the American Church that's being the problem while those in other countries (Africa, Southeast Asia) and some here holding fast.  So what some are doing is parishes in the US are asking to be under the oversight of African Bishops. One of those, The Most Rev. Peter Akinola, Archbishop of Nigeria is in the forefront of standing up for Creedal Christianity in the Anglican Communtion.

Sorry, Ben.  I don't buy "Demons of Protestantism". It just sounds alarmist and wild.

When are you going to make your decision, Joe?   I'm on tenterhooks hoping that things go well for you.


Ebor
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2004, 12:11:13 AM »

Theodore, that is also a good point, as most secular schools certainly push secular agendas.  Outside of Hellenic College(who can afford that?) there isn't much other recourse than going to a non-Orthodox college.
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2004, 01:35:40 AM »

Excellent points theodore and David.

Ebor, well I have tried calling both the College and Father to get answers from both of them.  Neither phone call worked out particularly well (read I wasn't able to get through to CofO all day and wasn't able to get through to Father all evening).  My phone seems to be doing something weird.   Everytime I call a number, any number, it makes the sound like it is dialing up the internet--but the pc is shut off.  Oy! technology is so confusing.

Joe Zollars
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