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Author Topic: question in regards to colleges  (Read 10638 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoeZollars
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« on: May 20, 2004, 09:27:27 PM »

Ok, I am asking for some very solicited advice.  

I have gotten a lead on a college where I would not have to pay anything. I would be a third generation student, so would have financial assistance that way and it is a "worker" college (students work for the college while studying and don't pay tuition). There education department (my current major) is considered among the best in the region. To top it off it would be close to family and only about 30-40 minutes from an Old Calander Orthodox Church. It would also help my brother who is attending a college where he pays almost 20 grand a year in tuition alone (he is studying to be a protestant minister--however heretical he may be I don't wish dept on him).

Now for the downside. It is a college affiliated with the Presbyterians and would require me to attend their chapel services six sundays a semester. It would also require I attend religion classes (which may not be a problem as I have already taken Comparitive World Religions and Old Testement Survey).

I am really at a loss, the first part is really good--but I don't know if I should be attending heretical school even with the benefits. I will email Father about it, but meanwhile I am asking for y'alls advice and opinions.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 09:35:43 PM »

Let me guess, College of the Ozarks?  I have a good friend who went there, so your description seems to fit it to a tee.  Assuming that you could just sit through the services, and not receive communion, that might not be such a big deal.
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2004, 09:40:02 PM »

yes it is.  My Paternal Grandmother and father both graduated from there with honors.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2004, 09:52:22 PM »

Dear JoeZollars,
I hope you dont mind some unsolicited advice from a newbie.
I would not hesitate to attend if it is otherwise a good school and you do not need to sign any "statement of faith" that compromises yours. You might also want to discuss your faith up front with the admission people.  Dependent on the brand of Presbyterian (PSCUSA liberals? OP,  EPC, or PCA less so)they may be willing to make additional accomodations. I sincerely hope this helps
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2004, 09:55:04 PM »

thansk for the advice!

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2004, 01:21:41 AM »

Hey....

I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2004, 01:41:55 AM »

I already have.  am just waiting on the response.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2004, 01:47:48 AM »

Quote
I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.

LOL, Dude are you serious. The Demons of protestantism....... laching onto your life......Huh?

I grew up protestant & it's not like that. Once in awhile I'll still go to a protestant church with friends. Seriously, it's not a big deal. At worst, you'll just have to endear very fruity worship music if you want to call it that & a very long sermon which it sounds like it could be very uninspiring since it's presbyterian. Just think of it going to a bussiness seminar, which basically it is with the ministers wearing suits.

Mr. Zollars, it sounds like a great opportunity to me. I really don't think it's that beig of a deal. God will honor your hard work & dedication to better yourself. You also can't beat a free education!!!!  
 Wink
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2004, 02:08:16 AM »

All heresies and schisms are caused by demons, and with every one, comes a powerful demonic force, that can tempt souls to leave the true Church.
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2004, 09:19:44 AM »

FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION?

It's a CHRISTIAN College.

This is a no-brainer.

GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!


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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2004, 09:25:32 AM »

Joe,

Another one to look into would be Berea College in Lexington, KY.  If you're accepted(based on academics and financial need) you get free tuition, room&board, and a laptop.  It is a mainline nondemonational protestant school, but they have an OCF on campus and is nearby a few Orthodox parishes.  www.berea.edu
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2004, 03:28:56 PM »

Hey....

I think it is wonderful that the college is close to an Old Calendar Orthodox Church, this is what you need Joe, but I am somewhat concerned about you attending a heretical service. I am sure many would just say sit through it, don't recieve communion, and thats it. But I worry about the demons associated with Protestantism, and how they will latch on to your life, and perhaps hurt your spiritual journey. However, this is something you should speak with your Spiritual Father about, not us. He knows you best, and knows the consquences of such a choice.

The Demons associated with Protestantism?!?!? Huh  

I beg your pardon.  At least some of the EO have the  humility to say that they don't know where the Holy Spirit isn't.

Some schisms seem to have happened due to sinful humanity or the people involved being Sure That They Are Right, or people exercising power or cruelty instead of Charity.

Joe-  If you have an opportunity for a good education, and you have a church nearby to give support this could be the right place for you.  

Ebor
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2004, 08:32:58 PM »

Joe -

Since I have heard that you live in Kansas, when you mentioned a Presbyterian college there, I thought you were going to say it was Sterling College.

A boyhood friend of mine went there, a guy who is now a Presbyterian minister.

I haven't heard from him in years, but he was a great person.

Who knows, maybe he's Orthodox by now!

Anyway, I would feel a bit shakey about attending Protestant services on Sundays, but you are checking with your priest, so I'll leave that between you and him and God.

Still, a free edu-ma-cation is nothing to sneeze at, and secular schools are certainly far worse in many cases than just about any Christian college.

The biggest danger you will probably face is some good-looking young Calvinist female!  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2004, 10:02:11 PM »

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that they probably have multiple sunday services.  Perhaps you'd be able to go to liturgy in the morning and go to the chapel in the evening where you can politely space out during the presentation.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2004, 05:35:54 PM »

Yes, this is where good daydreaming skills can come in handy!  

The demons of protestantism, hmmm...

Well, if most protestants were protestant in direct rebellion against the Church, then I think you'd have something there.  It's by far usually a case of not knowing any better and just doing the best you can.  Would God abandon anyone who truly desires and seeks Him?  I'm glad the Church teaches that we don't know where the Church isn't.  

Joe will follow the advice of his spiritual father, of course, and if he does go there it'll be a great opportunity to pray for a lot of people (some of whom will likely ask a lot of questions!).
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2004, 06:50:16 PM »

Ok, I am asking for some very solicited advice.  

I have gotten a lead on a college where I would not have to pay anything. I would be a third generation student, so would have financial assistance that way and it is a "worker" college (students work for the college while studying and don't pay tuition). There education department (my current major) is considered among the best in the region. To top it off it would be close to family and only about 30-40 minutes from an Old Calander Orthodox Church. It would also help my brother who is attending a college where he pays almost 20 grand a year in tuition alone (he is studying to be a protestant minister--however heretical he may be I don't wish dept on him).

Now for the downside. It is a college affiliated with the Presbyterians and would require me to attend their chapel services six sundays a semester. It would also require I attend religion classes (which may not be a problem as I have already taken Comparitive World Religions and Old Testement Survey).

I am really at a loss, the first part is really good--but I don't know if I should be attending heretical school even with the benefits. I will email Father about it, but meanwhile I am asking for y'alls advice and opinions.

Joe Zollars

so you are willing to betray your principal for a few bucks.

Money money moneeeeeeey
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2004, 07:00:05 PM »

No I am not.  That is why I am asking, is it apropriate to attend a heterodox school.  But in addition to the money issue, its education department (my major is Secondary Education) is considered to be at the top of the region and according to some is the best in the nation.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2004, 07:05:17 PM »

No matter what you all say, Satan is real, as are his demons and their tricks. Every evil comes with Satan in full force, to keep you from your true purpose: God. Protestantism holds many heresies as articles of faith, and their churches and foul teachings must be avoided at all costs. Now, that is of course difficult in this crazy world, and there isn't anything wrong with going to a Protestant college, but being required to attend their church services can't be good. Who knows what kind of attacks you coul expirence Joe, but talk to your Spiritual Father, he will know best.
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2004, 07:07:14 PM »

Also, if I undrstand you correctly you will have to attend their services on Sundays, which could prevent you from attending Divine Litrugy at an Orthodox parish. Personally, if I knew Orthodoxy to be the true Church, I would sacrifice anything and everything to get to Divine Liturgy, even a college education.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2004, 07:13:21 PM »

wel yes, but as David pointed out perhaps an evening service where I wore some discreet ear plugs would solve the obligation there.  Also they may dispense me from it entirely as I will be transferring in with over 60 hours and would be regularly attending and participating in services at another Church.  

Presbys are among the most liberal folks in the world, generally speaking and they may no longer have the obligation.  (that obligation is from when my mom and dad went there).

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2004, 07:25:44 PM »

Joe...have you heard back from your Spiritual Father yet?
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2004, 07:39:00 PM »

not yet--still waiting on word.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2004, 07:44:28 PM »

btw, I will have to check, but I think it is inapropriate to refer to him as my Spiritual Father.  He is the priest who made me a Catechumen and who will Baptize me, but Spiritual Father implies something else, or at least seems to do so to me.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2004, 08:02:07 PM »

btw, I will have to check, but I think it is inapropriate to refer to him as my Spiritual Father.  He is the priest who made me a Catechumen and who will Baptize me, but Spiritual Father implies something else, or at least seems to do so to me.

Joe Zollars

Where you not baptized by the catholic church?
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2004, 08:05:46 PM »

no it was a Baptist Baptism that was accepted by the NO chruch where became a member of hte Roman Church.

And even if I was, many ROCOR priests will baptize Romans anyway.

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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2004, 08:29:41 PM »

no it was a Baptist Baptism that was accepted by the NO chruch where became a member of hte Roman Church.

And even if I was, many ROCOR priests will baptize Romans anyway.

Joe Zollars

So ROCOR are donatist!
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2004, 08:31:38 PM »

Since when are Presbys some of the more liberal protestants?  Maybe the PCA or the PCUSA, but definitely not the RPs or the OPC ('Orthodox' Presbyterian Church? - give me a break  Roll Eyes).  I go to Geneva College in Beaver Falls, PA, and it's associated with the RPs.  Some of the professors and the student body are quite ravenously Calvinist, which makes life more than a little difficult for what few EOs there are and the silent majority of RCs on campus.  Sorry.  I tend to rant when I talk about protestants (specifically RPs and their ilk).
Now, about chapels.  Fortunately for this catechumen, Geneva's are on Wednesdays, and they allow you to make up missed credits by reading books and doing summaries on them, which is what I intend on doing.  But, it's a little more difficult for you, obviously.  So, as long as the 'services' aren't in the morning, which I highly doubt they are, I would do what I do when I go: bring earplugs or surreptitous earphones and a Patristic book or something by Dostoevsky.  Or something along those lines.  Tongue
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And now, for a shameless question of my own:  For those of you live in the Pittsburgh/Wheeling/Youngstown area, could you suggest a good school for a (hopefully) soon-to-be-EO to transfer to?  I was thinking Franciscan University of Stubenville, since it's within commuting distance and my aunt teaches there (which may mean a tuition break), but it's a charismatic Catholic school, which to me seems like a very large oxymoron.  Help would be very much appricated, either as a reply or (preferably) as a PM.
Thanks for listening to my bit of shameless latching-on.
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2004, 08:40:44 PM »

Ben, afaik, noone is saying that Satan is not real.  But your assertion about the "Demons of Protestantism" I do not credit.  There's plenty of Evil that comes out of a person's own sin without blaming the Devil for everything. And there has been much Good and Charity that came out of "Protestant" Churches for the love of Christ.

Joe, this could be the way to get out of the small town (that  you've said you want to do), and closer to a parish that God intends for you.  Remember the old joke about the man in the ocean praying for rescue as several vessals stop to get him but he waves them on with "God will rescue me"?  After he drowns, God tells him "I sent you a sail boat and a ocean liner."

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2004, 08:45:27 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2004, 09:47:03 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.

It doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.  Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?  Because if it does, that seems a little iffy to me.
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2004, 09:51:58 PM »

Quote
It doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.

Perhaps you were given incorrect information, it would be best to contact the college for accurate information.

Quote
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.
 

I think you do.

Quote
Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?
 

Not at all. I am not personally involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement, but it isn't what you think it is. I will try to find a link, or a contact you could provide you with more information.
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2004, 09:54:17 PM »

Well....let me clarify I do not think it is like Pentecostal Charistmatic stuff, but I don't know. I will look into it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2004, 09:58:54 PM »

http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm

^ might be of help
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2004, 10:04:12 PM »

There are concepts and doctrines within protestantism that are demonic, no doutb.  Obviously if you are protestant - like some posters here - you do not beleive that to be true, BUT this is afterall an Orthodox message board.  So if Ben expressed a more "traditionalist" Orthodox opinion, I don't understand why there is complaint.  Exposure to heresy can be very dangerous, thus the Holy Fathers were very careful about that, as the canons show.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2004, 10:06:52 PM »

AMEN!

Thank you Nektarios!
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2004, 10:27:29 PM »

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Ben, afaik, noone is saying that Satan is not real.  But your assertion about the "Demons of Protestantism" I do not credit.  There's plenty of Evil that comes out of a person's own sin without blaming the Devil for everything. And there has been much Good and Charity that came out of "Protestant" Churches for the love of Christ.

It's laughable to think that what is at the center of everything Protestant is the Devil. Protestants are very misguided, but from my experience Christ still works through many of them.  I can never bring myself to think like that  from seeing all the good fruits I witnessed by protestants I knew who tried to live faithfully to gospel. Would not Christ choose a good faithful protestant to be in his kingdom over a lackluster RC or Orthodox who just merely claim they know the truth, but have nothing to show for it?Huh  

Quote
t doesn't say so on the website, but my aunt, my mother (who grew up 10 minutes from StubyU, as it's affectionately called), and my Bible professor here at Geneva (who obviously isn't an objective source) said that it's associated with the movement.
And I may have the wrong idea about the Catholic Charismatics.  Does 'charismatic' in this sense mean the same thing that 'charismatic' does when it's applied to pentcostals and their like? ie. glossolalia, 'prophecy', 'healings', being 'slain in the Spirit', stuff like that?  Because if it does, that seems a little iffy to me.

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Well....let me clarify I do not think it is like Pentecostal Charistmatic stuff, but I don't know. I will look into it.

I am somewhat familiar with the charismatic renewel movement in the Roman Catholic Church because I went to some meetings & was part of a RC "charismatic" prayer group & bible study for about 1 year. I would say there is alot of similiarites between them & the pentecostals, but thier are also quite a bit of differences also. It is true that RC charismatics beleive in tounges & prophecy, but it is "practiced" much differently than that of the Protestants. Protestants are much more loose with how they deal with "prophetic" words & tounges. It's based much more on "individualism" and it's a free for all for the most part. The RC charismatics beleive that these gifts are only to be practiced as a "community." If a prophetic word is given, it is something that will have a "consensus" among all the members of the community & not just one individual.

Charismatic RC's also tend to be the most "orthodox" group within Catholicism. They have a love for church authority, the Pope, Mary, and all aspects of the RC faith. From my experience also, they are very conservative & seem to be the most active in the Pro life movement. They uterly reject the moral relativism that is gripping the Church and they are very vocal about it. I feel very sorry for them because they are such a minority among a sea of nominal RC's that could care less about thier faith. One RC church about 45 minutes from me has close to 30 home prayer/bible study groups alone & it was all started by a few "charismatic" RC laity in that church that had a zeal for thier faith. With the blessing of their priest, they implemented some programs for people in the church to learn about thier faith more & it spread like wild fire.  I hope this helps out a little. I have only good things to say about this movement within the RC Church.
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2004, 10:36:46 PM »

So ROCOR are donatist!

yeah.....right.

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?  Oh my Rome is Donatist!  please.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2004, 10:40:33 PM »

The  Franciscan University of Steubenville ( http://www.franciscan.edu/Home2/Content/main.aspx) I didn't think was involved in the Catholic Charasmatic movment- Which is approved by John Paul II- but I guess I'm wrong.

are you kidding? they are like the center of it.  That is where they hold the really big charismatic conferences..

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2004, 10:59:08 PM »

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?

Not anymore, but when they did the conditional baptism was not seen as a second baptism, if the first baptism was valid, but since the first baptism was questionable the priest would say "If you are not already baptized....I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

It is interesting to note that the Catholic Church teaches that *all* baptisms done correctly (using the trinitarian formula) are true Catholic baptisms. However, if the first baptism was questionable for whatever reason, the convert was conditionaly baptized, just in case.
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2004, 11:00:01 PM »

are you kidding? they are like the center of it.  That is where they hold the really big charismatic conferences..

I wonder why this isn't mentioned on their website.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2004, 11:09:54 PM »

yeah.....right.

Does not Rome traditionally, at least conditionally, baptize converts from Protestantism?  Oh my Rome is Donatist!  please.

Joe Zollars

No they do not. conditionally is not rebaptising someone. you know this but you are being very dificult.   we are not donatist. and if you were baptized already and rocor rebaptises you then they are donatist. of course fringe groups like ROCOR like to dabble in heresy.   other regular orthodox churches do not rebaptise catholics but recieve them through christmation(sp).

Christ is the master of baptism and all sacraments. This should tell you something.
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2004, 11:10:48 PM »

Nacho...

I am not saying that God doesn't care about Protestants, or that he doesn't have a realtionship with many of them, and I am most certainly not saying everything Protestant is centered around Satan!

I myself was once Protestant, and I am thankful for those Protestants who introduced me to Christ, but Protestantism is a heresy, period. And the Fathers of the Church taught that all Heresy is always dangerous for the soul.
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2004, 11:12:47 PM »

There are concepts and doctrines within protestantism that are demonic, no doutb.  Obviously if you are protestant - like some posters here - you do not beleive that to be true, BUT this is afterall an Orthodox message board.  So if Ben expressed a more "traditionalist" Orthodox opinion, I don't understand why there is complaint.  Exposure to heresy can be very dangerous, thus the Holy Fathers were very careful about that, as the canons show.  

Well, I wonder if Ben is expressing a more "traditionalist" RC opinion.  And "Demons of Protestantism" is offensive and silly and unsupported.  It comes across as a canard and an insult. It also reminds me of things out of Jack Chick comics.

 Also, as an Anglican I refuse to be lumped together in an amorphous blob called "Protestantism" with for example JW's and Oneness groups.  

You say "no doubt" there are demonic concepts and doctrines that are "demonic" Like what?"

Thanks, Nacho and Countrymouse for your support.

Ebor
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2004, 11:12:49 PM »

And RB you should know that before the post-Vat II reforms, most converts to Catholcism from Protestantism were conditionaly baptized.
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2004, 11:14:45 PM »

Nacho...

I am not saying that God doesn't care about Protestants, or that he doesn't have a realtionship with many of them, and I am most certainly not saying everything Protestant is centered around Satan!

Well, it sure read like that.  

Ebor
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