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Author Topic: two chalices  (Read 3090 times) Average Rating: 0
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Michał
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2011, 05:23:58 PM »

Sounds like the Roman Catholic argument for communion in one species.

Does 1 Corinthians 11:27 say that the Blood is, in some mysterious way, always present in the Body and the other way round? Yes or no? If no -- I would like to learn from you what does this verse really say. Roman Catholicism has nothing to do with it. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:25:21 PM by Michał » Logged
zekarja
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2011, 05:54:56 PM »

Sounds like the Roman Catholic argument for communion in one species.

Does 1 Corinthians 11:27 say that the Blood is, in some mysterious way, always present in the Body and the other way round? Yes or no? If no -- I would like to learn from you what does this verse really say. Roman Catholicism has nothing to do with it. Smiley

The Divine Liturgy tells us:

"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:57:52 PM by zekarja » Logged

Michał
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2011, 05:56:39 PM »

It would seem that the Divine Body is not the Divine Blood and visa versa.

Then, why St. Paul wrote what he wrote? (Just trying to find the answer. Smiley)
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zekarja
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2011, 06:00:45 PM »

It would seem that the Divine Body is not the Divine Blood and visa versa.

Then, why St. Paul wrote what he wrote? (Just trying to find the answer. Smiley)

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

If you partake of the Body and Blood unworthily, you shall be guilty of the Body and the Blood of the Lord. This doesn't imply that the Body is the Blood or visa versa. Smiley
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zekarja
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2011, 06:04:54 PM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 06:05:31 PM by zekarja » Logged

Michał
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2011, 06:09:16 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Here we have "and"-"and," but in most translations/editions, including the Orthodox Study Bible and the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible, have "or"-"and" what results in a different meaning.
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zekarja
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2011, 06:15:37 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Here we have "and"-"and," but in most translations/editions, including the Orthodox Study Bible and the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible, have "or"-"and" what results in a different meaning.

In the Liturgy the priest confesses the Body when he receives the Body, the Blood when receiving the Blood. Lex orandi, lex credendi.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 06:15:50 PM by zekarja » Logged

Michał
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2011, 06:23:58 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Here we have "and"-"and," but in most translations/editions, including the Orthodox Study Bible and the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible, have "or"-"and" what results in a different meaning.

In the Liturgy the priest confesses the Body when he receives the Body, the Blood when receiving the Blood. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Our credendi is also in the Bible so I would like it if someone provided a harmonization of 1 Corinthians 11:27 and the words said by the priest during Liturgy. Smiley
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zekarja
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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2011, 06:30:08 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Here we have "and"-"and," but in most translations/editions, including the Orthodox Study Bible and the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible, have "or"-"and" what results in a different meaning.

In the Liturgy the priest confesses the Body when he receives the Body, the Blood when receiving the Blood. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Our credendi is also in the Bible so I would like it if someone provided a harmonization of 1 Corinthians 11:27 and the words said by the priest during Liturgy. Smiley

Here is the Greek for those who know Greek and can shed some light on the subject:
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄11:27 ωστε ος αν εσθιη τον αρτον τουτον η πινη το ποτηριον του κυριου αναξιως του κυριου ενοχος εσται του σωματος και του αιματος του κυριου [Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)]
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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2011, 07:06:26 PM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

What is your source for the Presanctified text? I looked at both the Liturgikon 3rd Edition, published by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and, on www.anastasis.org.uk ,which both list the first formula in the Presanctified text. The fact that neither of these sources even mention the formula you use makes me question the source's accuracy.
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Joseph
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2011, 07:35:58 PM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

What is your source for the Presanctified text? I looked at both the Liturgikon 3rd Edition, published by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and, on www.anastasis.org.uk ,which both list the first formula in the Presanctified text. The fact that neither of these sources even mention the formula you use makes me question the source's accuracy.

My sources are Hapgood Service Book and the OCA Service Book. You are correct. The most current Antiochian Liturgikon represents the Greek view.

The Greek view is that drops of Divine Blood consecrates the wine into 100% Divine Blood.
The Slavonic view is that drops of Divine Blood sanctifies but doesn't consecrate the wine.

in IC XC,
zekarja
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2011, 11:43:30 PM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

What is your source for the Presanctified text? I looked at both the Liturgikon 3rd Edition, published by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and, on www.anastasis.org.uk ,which both list the first formula in the Presanctified text. The fact that neither of these sources even mention the formula you use makes me question the source's accuracy.

My sources are Hapgood Service Book and the OCA Service Book. You are correct. The most current Antiochian Liturgikon represents the Greek view.

The Greek view is that drops of Divine Blood consecrates the wine into 100% Divine Blood.
The Slavonic view is that drops of Divine Blood sanctifies but doesn't consecrate the wine.

in IC XC,
zekarja

Can you explain the difference between sanctify and consecrate? It is called the presanctified liturgy which implies the Eucharist is sanctified and not consecrated. Although the dictionary says that sanctify means to consecrate.

I am inferring that by consecrate it means become the body and blood of Christ and sanctify means to make holy in this context. So it would really be the preconsecrated liturgy. I imagine this is clear in the original language.
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2011, 11:54:02 PM »

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

I've only seen the above formula in a Russian-tradition liturgicon.  In the Greek-tradition (Antiochian, Alexandrian, Jerusalemite, Cypriot, Greek, Constantinopolitan), the same formula as is used in the Divine Liturgy is used at Presanctified Liturgy.
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2011, 11:55:18 PM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

What is your source for the Presanctified text? I looked at both the Liturgikon 3rd Edition, published by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and, on www.anastasis.org.uk ,which both list the first formula in the Presanctified text. The fact that neither of these sources even mention the formula you use makes me question the source's accuracy.

My sources are Hapgood Service Book and the OCA Service Book. You are correct. The most current Antiochian Liturgikon represents the Greek view.

The Greek view is that drops of Divine Blood consecrates the wine into 100% Divine Blood.
The Slavonic view is that drops of Divine Blood sanctifies but doesn't consecrate the wine.

Can you explain the difference between sanctify and consecrate? It is called the presanctified liturgy which implies the Eucharist is sanctified and not consecrated. Although the dictionary says that sanctify means to consecrate.

I am inferring that by consecrate it means become the body and blood of Christ and sanctify means to make holy in this context. So it would really be the preconsecrated liturgy. I imagine this is clear in the original language.

In the Greek tradition, as it has been taught to me and as I have seen it in my Liturgical books, those following the "Greek" tradition do not make such a distinction between consecrated and sanctified in the context of the Holy Gifts (in truth, zekarja's post is the first time I've ever seen such a distinction elucidated); when they (we) say "Presanctified," we also mean "Pre-Consecrated."
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 11:56:11 PM by Fr. George » Logged

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zekarja
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2011, 05:27:59 AM »

The Divine Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body:
"The precious and most holy Body of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

Drinking the Blood:
"The precious and holy Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."

The Presanctified Liturgy tells us:
Eating the Body wetted with the Blood:
"The precious and most holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, is given unto me, the unworthy Priest N. unto remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting."


Liturgically, the Body is not the Blood and the Blood is not the Body. Smiley

What is your source for the Presanctified text? I looked at both the Liturgikon 3rd Edition, published by the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and, on www.anastasis.org.uk ,which both list the first formula in the Presanctified text. The fact that neither of these sources even mention the formula you use makes me question the source's accuracy.

My sources are Hapgood Service Book and the OCA Service Book. You are correct. The most current Antiochian Liturgikon represents the Greek view.

The Greek view is that drops of Divine Blood consecrates the wine into 100% Divine Blood.
The Slavonic view is that drops of Divine Blood sanctifies but doesn't consecrate the wine.

in IC XC,
zekarja

Can you explain the difference between sanctify and consecrate? It is called the presanctified liturgy which implies the Eucharist is sanctified and not consecrated. Although the dictionary says that sanctify means to consecrate.

I am inferring that by consecrate it means become the body and blood of Christ and sanctify means to make holy in this context. So it would really be the preconsecrated liturgy. I imagine this is clear in the original language.

Basically I've talked with Greek/Antiochian priests and Slavonic priests and checked service book in both traditions. In the Greek/Antiochian the Divine Blood does turn the chalice of wine into the Divine Blood. In the Slavonic the Divine Blood does not turn the chalice of wine into the Divine Blood, by being present in the chalice It makes the wine holy.

Please forgive me for not being clear. Embarrassed  Smiley

in IC XC,
zekarja

P.S. Father David Moser explains both traditions here: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?3793-Communion-with-multiple-chalices&p=46179&viewfull=1#post46179
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 05:30:53 AM by zekarja » Logged

arimethea
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« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2011, 09:42:58 AM »

In the Slavonic the Divine Blood does not turn the chalice of wine into the Divine Blood, by being present in the chalice It makes the wine holy.

Can you explain why the Slavonic practice teaches this? Does it make sense to anyone? I have a huge problem with this thought process. If there is a legitimate reason for this I would love to hear it.

I really think that this is a heresy because it denies the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
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Joseph
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« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2011, 09:53:48 AM »

In the Slavonic the Divine Blood does not turn the chalice of wine into the Divine Blood, by being present in the chalice It makes the wine holy.

Can you explain why the Slavonic practice teaches this? Does it make sense to anyone? I have a huge problem with this thought process. If there is a legitimate reason for this I would love to hear it.

I really think that this is a heresy because it denies the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I'm sorry. I have only learned of the Slavonic view more recently from a few priests and the Hapgood Service Book. They do not deny the real presence; they deny that a couple drops of Divine Blood turns 6 ounces of wine into Divine Blood. To the best of my knowledge, the Slavonic thought is that a couple drops of Divine Blood poured into 6 ounces of wine makes wine with a couple drops of Divine Blood. It doesn't make 6 ounces of Divine Blood. I really don't know any more on that topic. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2011, 09:59:00 AM »

While the passages were not about communion, the stories of the multiplication of the loaves and fish come to mind here. God can increase as he sees fit, even if the how is a mystery to us, or defies what seems logical/intuitively true.
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zekarja
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« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2011, 10:07:50 AM »

While the passages were not about communion, the stories of the multiplication of the loaves and fish come to mind here. God can increase as he sees fit, even if the how is a mystery to us, or defies what seems logical/intuitively true.

I am not defending one view over the other. I am merely pointing out the differences. Smiley

in IC XC,
zekarja
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