Author Topic: Vestment Question  (Read 4044 times)

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Vestment Question
« on: September 20, 2010, 01:38:22 AM »


What types of vestments are those deacons or priests wearing in this photo? They look kind of like the old "Cross" vestments often depicted  in icons, but different? Are they a part of Serbian tradition? Likewise, do priests still wear the other style of "Cross" vestments?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 04:11:17 AM »
Common in Serbia..  The holy Patriarch Pavle (God rest him) wore such vestments a lot of the time.   They are simple and inexpensive and I like them a lot.  Besides the connection they make with the ancient Church and the icons depicting bishops, they make their own "fashion statement" about the frugality with church money which the clergy should exemplify.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 09:46:43 AM »
So how much would a vestment set like that cost in comparison with others?

Also, do Serbian clergy additionally wear the actual design that is found in icons? Recently someone posted an Old Believer bishop or priest who was wearing that exact thing. Is it limited to them?

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 10:07:25 AM »
Also, do Serbian clergy additionally wear the actual design that is found in icons? Recently someone posted an Old Believer bishop or priest who was wearing that exact thing. Is it limited to them?

I have seen several Greek bishops with "polystavron" vestments, just like or very similar to what one finds in late medieval Icons. Once upon a time, only the Ecumenical Patriarch and certain high-ranking Metropolitans could wear such a vestment on high feast days. I believe the Ecumenical Patriarch still does so at the appointed times.

Nowadays, variations on that theme (of which your original photo is but one example) are common for deacons, priests, and bishops. I've seen different versions in Greece, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Turkey, and Mt. Athos.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 10:08:40 AM by pensateomnia »
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline mike

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 10:15:49 AM »
A bit off-topic: why no 7-candles candlestick on the altar?

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 12:01:52 PM »
 The Photo Looks like it's The Serbian Holy Resurrection Cathedral at I90 kennedy express way and Canfield Road,  that has  the Byzantine Mosaic Ikonastasis really beautifull....Where's the Processional Cross and the Fans that suppose to be there,Plus what mike pointed out....

I don't see any Deacons .....They Must be In Front of the Ikonastasis....I do see His Grace Bishop Longin.....
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 12:20:35 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline mike

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 12:11:55 PM »
There is a Deacon on the far right.

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »
There is a Deacon on the far right.

Oh!...Are You sure......It's Hard to Tell.....
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 12:20:22 PM »
A bit off-topic: why no 7-candles candlestick on the altar?
That's more common with the Russians I think (maybe the Greeks too?), but not that common in other parts of the Orthodox world, such as the areas of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, for instance.


Offline JLatimer

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 12:23:12 PM »
So how much would a vestment set like that cost in comparison with others?

Also, do Serbian clergy additionally wear the actual design that is found in icons? Recently someone posted an Old Believer bishop or priest who was wearing that exact thing. Is it limited to them?

You won't likely see exactly like in the icons anytime soon (like in most pictures of St Basil, for example) because bishops used to wear phelonia (chasubles), but now just stikhars I think it's called...
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 12:25:45 PM »
A bit off-topic: why no 7-candles candlestick on the altar?
That's more common with the Russians I think (maybe the Greeks too?), but not that common in other parts of the Orthodox world, such as the areas of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, for instance.



When I was a Altar Boy ,they always Had the Seven candle Holders on each side of the Altar......This was at The St.Sava Serbian Orthodox Monastery in Libertyville Ill....Plus the Processional cross and Fans...
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Subdeacon Michael

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 01:48:55 PM »
Where's the Processional Cross and the Fans that suppose to be there

There's no concept of supposed to be there.  Yes, they are often found there in some churches but other arrangements are very common.  Some churches have the fans immediately to the east of the Holy Table, with or without the processional Cross in the middle.  Some have both the Processional Cross (to the right) and a processional icon of the Mother of God (to the left) between the fans.  Others have the processional Cross and icon alone and the fans are kept somewhere else entirely, perhaps off to one side and not as part of a display.  In large churches with more space in the altar, it is not uncommon for there to be an arrangement of processional Cross, icons, and fans somewhere between the Holy Table and the High Place, but not immediately to the east of the Holy Table, so you wouldn't necessarily see them in a close-up photograph of the Holy Table such as the one in the OP.  Here, for instance, is Christ the Saviour in Moscow.  There's the Cross and processional icon, as well as the pedestals for the trikiri-dikiri, but not a fan in sight.

There is a Deacon on the far right.

Oh!...Are You sure......It's Hard to Tell.....

Not that hard.  ;)  He's standing in the deacon's position and wearing the archdiaconal/protodiaconal orar.

M
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Offline Vzldrb

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 04:58:46 PM »
Our parish often uses vestments like those. IE:

Offline samkim

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 05:45:39 PM »
There is a Deacon on the far right.

Oh!...Are You sure......It's Hard to Tell.....

It's quite easy to tell. There is clearly a deacon standing there with his orarion.
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 06:11:07 PM »
There is a Deacon on the far right.

Oh!...Are You sure......It's Hard to Tell.....

The giveaway is that he has his orarion sitting on his shoulder.  There are 2 clergy with the same fabric/pattern on their vestments (the two to the far right of the pic) - the one on the left is a priest (his vestment on the outside is a phelonion, which is hanging off his body in the same way as the priest next to him), and the one on the right is the deacon, with an orarion hanging off his left shoulder.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline IXOYE

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 08:05:11 PM »
So how much would a vestment set like that cost in comparison with others?

Also, do Serbian clergy additionally wear the actual design that is found in icons? Recently someone posted an Old Believer bishop or priest who was wearing that exact thing. Is it limited to them?

You won't likely see exactly like in the icons anytime soon (like in most pictures of St Basil, for example) because bishops used to wear phelonia (chasubles), but now just stikhars I think it's called...


The vestment a bishop wears is a sakkos.

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 08:32:12 PM »
There is a Deacon on the far right.

Oh!...Are You sure......It's Hard to Tell.....

The giveaway is that he has his orarion sitting on his shoulder.  There are 2 clergy with the same fabric/pattern on their vestments (the two to the far right of the pic) - the one on the left is a priest (his vestment on the outside is a phelonion, which is hanging off his body in the same way as the priest next to him), and the one on the right is the deacon, with an orarion hanging off his left shoulder.

Oh Yes I see it know, Had cigarette smoke in my eyes earlier ...Thanks everyone from pointing it out...... ;D
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 08:40:39 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 09:42:42 PM »
Our parish often uses vestments like those. IE:


So, you're in Emmaus, PA? That's about an hour from where I live.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 09:47:29 PM »
So, you're in Emmaus, PA? That's about an hour from where I live. 

Huh... Nazareth, Emmaus, Bethlehem... Ancient Israel in Eastern PA!
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 01:01:23 PM »
So how much would a vestment set like that cost in comparison with others?

Also, do Serbian clergy additionally wear the actual design that is found in icons? Recently someone posted an Old Believer bishop or priest who was wearing that exact thing. Is it limited to them?

You won't likely see exactly like in the icons anytime soon (like in most pictures of St Basil, for example) because bishops used to wear phelonia (chasubles), but now just stikhars I think it's called...


The vestment a bishop wears is a sakkos.

Right. Thanks.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Father H

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 04:41:18 PM »
So, you're in Emmaus, PA? That's about an hour from where I live. 

Huh... Nazareth, Emmaus, Bethlehem... Ancient Israel in Eastern PA!

At least they are not fighting amongst themselves as much as the ancient Israelites--no daggers and such (although I do recall the Serb priest-pc pres encounter with a gun a few years back  :(  ).   

Offline Father H

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 04:44:45 PM »
A bit off-topic: why no 7-candles candlestick on the altar?
That's more common with the Russians I think (maybe the Greeks too?), but not that common in other parts of the Orthodox world, such as the areas of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, for instance.
When I was a Altar Boy ,they always Had the Seven candle Holders on each side of the Altar......This was at The St.Sava Serbian Orthodox Monastery in Libertyville Ill....Plus the Processional cross and Fans...

Right, we have an image of heavenly worship from the book of Revelation--7 candles before the throne.   However, this has not always been universally so.  For example, Bulgakov, I believe in his Kniga states that "at least 4" should be on/before the throne/holy table. 

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 06:42:22 PM »
A bit off-topic: why no 7-candles candlestick on the altar?
That's more common with the Russians I think (maybe the Greeks too?), but not that common in other parts of the Orthodox world, such as the areas of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, for instance.
When I was a Altar Boy ,they always Had the Seven candle Holders on each side of the Altar......This was at The St.Sava Serbian Orthodox Monastery in Libertyville Ill....Plus the Processional cross and Fans...

Right, we have an image of heavenly worship from the book of Revelation--7 candles before the throne.   However, this has not always been universally so.  For example, Bulgakov, I believe in his Kniga states that "at least 4" should be on/before the throne/holy table. 

Thanks Fr. I do remember now Of the things I mentioned  or the seven candle holders on each side were actually not on the Altar,  but on a separate stand pushed against the back of the Altar..with holes to insert the processional cross pole and fans.. And enough room  for the Candle holders as well....Its sort of odd to see it another way minus the things mentioned when one is used to seeing them .....Hopefully this isn't a sign of more changes to come ,where  bare minimum is better..... >:(
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Father H

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 07:21:10 PM »
^Well, I have a seven-branched.  Can't speak for the others. 

Offline Subdeacon Michael

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2011, 07:45:27 PM »
Does anybody know where such polystavron vestments, or the fabric from which they are made, may be had?

Many thanks.
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline IXOYE

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2011, 09:37:11 PM »
Does anybody know where such polystavron vestments, or the fabric from which they are made, may be had?

Many thanks.

Try: EasternChristianSupply.Biz

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2011, 10:27:31 PM »
Several Yrs.Back Some one Was Aiming, and Shot A Gun at the Romainian Priest ,At the Romainian cathedral located On North central Ave. here in chicago.....It's Been a while since the Incident ,Can't remember If it Was thur the church door, or the Parish House......But it did Happen........





So, you're in Emmaus, PA? That's about an hour from where I live.  

Huh... Nazareth, Emmaus, Bethlehem... Ancient Israel in Eastern PA!

At least they are not fighting amongst themselves as much as the ancient Israelites--no daggers and such (although I do recall the Serb priest-pc pres encounter with a gun a few years back  :(  ).    
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 10:45:50 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline BigMike617

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2011, 07:18:26 PM »
Well they look like vestments worn typically by churches of the Hellenic or Greek Tradition mostly of course the Greek,Antiochian,Romanian,Albanian,Carpatho Russian,etc churches use this style the SLavic churches use the high back style I would say that it's a Greek style vestment

Offline stashko

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2011, 08:04:17 PM »
The Greek Style Vestments Are Better Fitting .....The High Back,ones just Don't look like they fit the priest right........ ;D




Well they look like vestments worn typically by churches of the Hellenic or Greek Tradition mostly of course the Greek,Antiochian,Romanian,Albanian,Carpatho Russian,etc churches use this style the SLavic churches use the high back style I would say that it's a Greek style vestment
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Vestment Question
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2011, 09:27:38 PM »
The cross vestments are not uncommon, but most vestments are solid-color.