Topic: Mandatory Clerical Celibacy

[Ben]

I personally have not see Catholics treat it as a sacrament, however many do leave the Church after recieveing ashes, because many of them have to get to work and/or school. I myself do like the symbolism, and find it absurd that Spartacus is so agasint it.

[spartacus]

I, too, like the symbolism of the ashes, and used to go to Ash Wednesday services at my old RC elementary school because I enjoyed going.  Having done that for almost ten years, I think I know what Spartacus was getting at when he said RC's think of ashes almost as a sacrament.  At almost every Mass I went to on Ash Wednesday, the church was packed--standing room only--at the beginning.  When the time came to distribute the ashes, everyone got them, AND HALF THE CHURCH LEFT, leaving the others to commune.  I've spoken with their priests, eucharistic ministers, lectors, etc., and all have lamented the fact that people stay for the ashes and abandon the Sacrament, because they have their priorities backwards.  I've even stood in the back of the church sometimes and heard people chat with friends about how they're not going to stay for the whole Mass, they just want ashes.  I've seen priests go outdoors to assembled crowds and take like ten minutes to give everyone ashes; they don't even bother to go out to give the crowds Communion, since they know they're not there.  So yes, RCism doesn't teach that the ashes on Ash Wednesday are a sacrament, but there are certainly a lot of (ignorant) people who treat it as such, often in preference to the Holy Eucharist.  

The point is not so much about actually using ashes (a stupid thing to argue about), but how they are perceived.  

BINGO!!!

And the vast numbers of RCs who receive their ashes and hurriedly leave the church...are they not like the pharisees?

[Ben]

Oh Spartacus....

Once again you don't address the facts. You misuse scirpture and deny history, and you don't seem to care on bit. How unfortunate.

"are they not like the pharaisees"

How does the fact that some RCs just go to church on ash wednesday to get ashes anything similar to the pharisees? Ash Wednesday is not a holy day of obligation, Catholics don't have to attend Mass, nor do they have to recieve ashes, but many wish to start lent this way, it is apart of their faith, and all the RCs I know, the ashes have deep meaning for them. And as I said many times, people have to get to work and/or school on Ash Wednesday, and can only stay for the distribution of ashes. However, I won't deny that there are some Catholics who misuse or misinterpret the traditions of the Church, but this does not apply to the Catholic Church as a whole.

I still don't understand why you object to the use of ashes in the Catholic Church, you seem to be the only one in this thread who is against it, and you still refuse to respond to anything I have said.

[Ben]

Spartacus....

For the last time....

I truly understand your concerns about the Catholics using ashes as a way of Spiritual pride, but that is a something that you would have to take up with those individual Catholics. To dimiss an ancient practice as something against the words of Christ or the teachings of the Church just because some misuse this tradition, is toally absurd!

The use of ashes, as a sign of penance and in seasons of repentence, were used by the Jews in the OT, I have supported this with scriptural evidence, and it was used in the early Church, esp in the Celtic Church, the Spanish Mozarabic rite and the Order of the Penitents.

If the pratice of using ashes is against the teachings of Christ, and as you said never used by the Orthodox, then you must be prepared to admit that the Celtic Church, the Spanish Mozarabic rite, and the Order of the Penitents were all not apart of the Orthodox Church, which is contrary to the teaching of the Orthdox Church, which is that the entire Christian Church, east and west, was Orthodox in the pre-schism centuries.

Not only are you rejecting historical truth, but also you do not understand that Christ does not condemn the practice of using ashes. You misuse our Lord's word, that condemned spiritual pride, to condemn the use of ashes.

I am still wondering why the Orthodox Church, in the early centuries of the Church, or more recently, hasn't condemned the use of ashes, you must also be wondering about this since you believe this tradition so contrary to the words of Christ.

I am also still amazed that of all the things you, as an Orthodox Christian, could object to in the Catholic Church, you choose the use of ashes, what nonsense!

I am sorry, but your argument is just plain silly, and is contrary to scripture, and historical evidence.

I no way am I saying the use of ashes is a must, but it certainly isn't contrary to the teachings of Christ, or the early Church, and this is a fact that can not be denied.

[icxn]

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Word-lovers, trust not much in words, neither excessive sophisms beyond reason, nor desire to defeat wrongly, but when rightly defeated endure gladly.

[Fr. David]

The point is not so much about actually using ashes (a stupid thing to argue about), but how they are perceived.

BINGO!!!

And the vast numbers of RCs who receive their ashes and hurriedly leave the church...are they not like the pharisees?

Well, the fact that there are many folks who duck into Orthodox churches to swing through the communion line and back out the door before liturgy's end doesn't make the Orthodox Church's view of the Eucharist of any less effect, does it?  Misuse does not negate right use, spartacus.

I try to attend the Ash Wed. service at St. Peter's Orthodox Church (Western Rite) here in Ft. Worth every year.  One of my favorite days in Lent, personally.  I don't see it as "broadcasting the fast," but rather, reminding myself to repent along with my brothers and sisters.

Ben -- excellent defense of ashes within Church history; you're right on all accounts.

[Ben]

Pedro...

I know what you mean by Orthodox Christians who go from recieving communion, to right out the Church door...

At the GOA Cathedral I attend, half of the congregation leaves after reciveing communion, only a handful remain untill the end of the Divine Liturgy.

[icxn]

 

Abba Ammonas came one day to eat in a place where there was a monk of evil repute. Now it happened that a woman came and entered the cell of the brother of evil reputation. The dwellers in that place, having learnt this, were troubled and gathered together to chase the brother from his cell. Knowing that Bishop Ammonas was in the place, they asked him to join them. When the brother in question learnt this, he hid the woman in a large cask. The crowd of monks came to the place. Now Abba Ammonas saw the position clearly but for the sake of God he kept it secret; he entered, seated himself on the cask and commanded the cell to be searched. Then when the monks had searched everywhere without finding the woman, Abba Ammonas said, "What is this? May God forgive you!" After praying, he made everyone go out, then taking the brother by the hand he said, "Brother, be on your guard." With these words, he withdrew. - "The Sayings of the Desert Fathers"

And,

Practice self-observation. And if you want to benefit yourself and your fellow men, look at your own faults and not those of others. The Lord tells us: "Judge not, that ye be not judged," condemn not that ye be not condemned. And the Apostle Paul says: "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?" - St. Arsenios of Paros

And,

Do not rail against anyone, but rather say "God knows each one." Do not agree with him who slanders, do not rejoice at his slander and do not hate him who slanders his neighbor. This is what it means not to judge. - St. Moses the Ethiopian

[Mor Ephrem]

Ben,

I can only go by my many experiences in one parish which, compared to other urban RC parishes I've had experience with in NY, hardly seems to be exceptional.  

You are right that many have school or work, and so cannot stay for the whole Mass.  However, this particular parish had Ash Wednesday Masses and "Liturgies of the Word" with the distribution of ashes from 7am to 7pm.  These services had no music, and except for the second reading before the Gospel, were not much longer than ferial Masses.  It seems to me that, in such a situation, one could go to Mass and receive ashes and Communion; it would require waking up a little earlier (asceticism is an even better way to start Lent than the imposition of ashes;) ), or not going home immediately after work.  This doesn't apply to services where Communion is not offered, of course.  

I have no problem acknowledging that people often get there on their lunch breaks, and can't spend too much time in church, and sympathise with that, and commend them for making the attempt to come to church and begin Lent prayerfully.  However, I've seen this happen before my eyes, and have talked with RC clerics and lay ministers who similarly lament this attitude, and I'm sure they know their people better than I do.  There are many in precisely the situation you describe, Ben, but there are also many who, regardless of whether or not they are in that situation, still treat it the way I've described.  

Pedro,

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I've attended Divine Liturgies in Indian, Coptic, Greek, Antiochian, Russian, and American (OCA) Orthodox parishes, and I've never seen people hop onto the Communion line, receive, and then leave.  It's very wrong to do so unless you have a legitimate reason for doing so, but I've never seen what you describe.

[spartacus]

Well, the fact that there are many folks who duck into Orthodox churches to swing through the communion line and back out the door before liturgy's end doesn't make the Orthodox Church's view of the Eucharist of any less effect, does it?  Misuse does not negate right use, spartacus.

Well Pedro,

I have never witnessed what you describe in Orthodox parishes to any great extent...Yes I am sure there are some who do this on occasion. But I have yet to witness anything in any Liturgy I have attended to make me think this is common in Orthodoxy. Quite the opposite. After Liturgy fellowship is usually very well attended.

However as someone who was a practicing Roman Catholic for more than 35 years....This leaving after Holy Communion is endemic in modern Roman Catholicism ion the US...indeed when the congregation at the end of mass says "Thanks be to God" it very often sounds like a sigh of relief!

Whether RC or Orthodox, if a parish has parishioners leaving early, and otherwise in a hurry to leave the parking lot every Sunday -- this is a sign of a parish that is not healthy.

In Roman Catholicism this presence of unhealthy parishes is an epedemic. I for one attribute a great deal of this "unhealthiness" to the mandatory celibacy of the priesthood for reasons previously stated -- to summarize, The Catholic priesthood is in geeral, out of touch with their parishioners' familial lives.

[Fr. David]

Pedro,

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but I've attended Divine Liturgies in Indian, Coptic, Greek, Antiochian, Russian, and American (OCA) Orthodox parishes, and I've never seen people hop onto the Communion line, receive, and then leave.  It's very wrong to do so unless you have a legitimate reason for doing so, but I've never seen what you describe.        

I agree 100%; it is wrong.  So you're fortunate never to have seen it.  Yet I've seen it in more than one parish where folks arrive during the Anaphora and leave directly after communion -- attendance swells there for about ten, twenty minutes, then deflates.  I think Fr. Alexander Schmemann (sp?) commented on that in his journals, which leads me to believe my experience isn't isolated.  Mostly stems from a misunderstanding of what the Eucharist inherently IS; it's the same reason, my priest has said, that some folks will merely creep up to him on Holy Saturday as he's hearing confessions and say simply, "absolve me, Father."  Mechanical working of the sacraments instead of communal celebration and participation therein.

[TomS]

I have witnessed what Pedro describes, but usually on a weekday morning Liturgy when people need to get to work.

[spartacus]

...my priest has said, that some folks will merely creep up to him on Holy Saturday as he's hearing confessions and say simply, "absolve me, Father."  Mechanical working of the sacraments instead of communal celebration and participation therein.

In my experience in a large Suburban area I found it very difficult as a RC to have a priest hear confession. At my lastRC parish the priest was available every Friday from 9-11. There was opnly priest ...people begin lining up before 8 AM....show up at 8:30 and you are rolling the dice. Work every Saturday and you are out of luck. All this for 2-3 minutes....and hardly any ever real practical advice on avoiding the sin in the future..."say 25 Hail Marys...yadayadayada...". Want to schedule a counseling session with a priest...LOLOLOLO. Call the church secretary and she'll see if she can squeeze you for 15 minutes sometme next month!

At our RC parish prior to that one there was only one the priest was very different about confessions...he administered that sacrement in a beautiful and meaningful way we had never before experienced in Catholicism. My wife and I liked it....We also liked the way he approached Church stewardship. After we discovered Orthodxoy, we learned that that particular priest actullay approached confession and stewardship as what we find in Orthodoxy. In fact it was his telling us that he preferred the Orthodox approach to confession that first set us to discovering that Orthodoxy was something other than the local large Greek Orthodox Church that put on a great Greek festival every year.

[Ben]

There is no doubt that many people can misuse and/or misinterpret the traditions of the Church, and I certainly won't deny that the vast majoirty of NO parishes are full of abuses, this is part of the reason I attend a traditional latin Mass chapel. But just because some traditions, such as the use of ashes, can be misused or mistreated, in anyway, by the faithful or the clergy does not make the use of ashes contrary to the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church, I have proved this.

And as I said earlier, I have also seen what Pedro describes.....many many times.