OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 23, 2014, 11:30:40 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Goshen, IN no longer Ukrainian  (Read 3941 times) Average Rating: 3
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« on: April 03, 2011, 03:36:00 PM »

I saw this on facebook so I don't know how to site it but wow sad story,

For those who still don't understand that the former Ukrainian Orthodox Church based in Bound Brook no longer exists as a Ukrainian church I offer this new example of the hypocrisy and shame they bring to our Holy church and Ukraine: Last Sunday the 27th of March, 2011  a 50 year member and one of the founding families of Holy Trinity Ukrainian Orthodox Church brought a portrait of Taras Shevchenko to church and made a memorial meal to commemorate our great hero, she asked the priest to pay for T. Shevchenko's memory and asked that after service, as in the past they sing "Zapovit" .


She was then told in a very stern and forceful manner by Rev Silouan Rolando that "No we will not do this, we do not mix nationalism and religion in this parish" and that Bishop Daniel of Pamphilon would back this decision. She then again tried to convince rev. Rolando but to no avail. She took the protrait, left the meal she prepared for the parish, sat in her car and cried. A parish which she and her family and friends built and supported for all of these years is no longer Ukrainian.
She and others have been surprised before as approximately 1 year ago, Bishop Daniel approved the sign "Holy Trinity Ukrainian Orthodox Church" be taken down. Eyewitnesses added that they tossed it in a dumpster and put up a new one without the word "Ukrainian"..... She has also left messages for Bishop of Pamphilon Daniel over the past 6 months and has never gotten a return phone call. (This not surprising).

Ukrainian Orthodox parishes under the Kyivan Patriarchate and Ukrainian Catholic parishes pray for heroes like Roman Shuhevych, Shevchenko and others and these "clergy" decide who they will and will not pray for? Shame! Traitors to religion and country!

 http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fholytrinity.unmercenary.com%2F&h=41b85 If you look at their web site you will find: It is o.k. to go and pray at the local Russian Church but to pray for Taras Shevchenko.... That is not possible! Shame!!
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »

I saw this on facebook so I don't know how to site it but wow sad story,

For those who still don't understand that the former Ukrainian Orthodox Church based in Bound Brook no longer exists as a Ukrainian church I offer this new example of the hypocrisy and shame they bring to our Holy church and Ukraine: Last Sunday the 27th of March, 2011  a 50 year member and one of the founding families of Holy Trinity Ukrainian Orthodox Church brought a portrait of Taras Shevchenko to church and made a memorial meal to commemorate our great hero, she asked the priest to pay for T. Shevchenko's memory and asked that after service, as in the past they sing "Zapovit" .


She was then told in a very stern and forceful manner by Rev Silouan Rolando that "No we will not do this, we do not mix nationalism and religion in this parish" and that Bishop Daniel of Pamphilon would back this decision. She then again tried to convince rev. Rolando but to no avail. She took the protrait, left the meal she prepared for the parish, sat in her car and cried. A parish which she and her family and friends built and supported for all of these years is no longer Ukrainian.
She and others have been surprised before as approximately 1 year ago, Bishop Daniel approved the sign "Holy Trinity Ukrainian Orthodox Church" be taken down. Eyewitnesses added that they tossed it in a dumpster and put up a new one without the word "Ukrainian"..... She has also left messages for Bishop of Pamphilon Daniel over the past 6 months and has never gotten a return phone call. (This not surprising).

Ukrainian Orthodox parishes under the Kyivan Patriarchate and Ukrainian Catholic parishes pray for heroes like Roman Shuhevych, Shevchenko and others and these "clergy" decide who they will and will not pray for? Shame! Traitors to religion and country!

 http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fholytrinity.unmercenary.com%2F&h=41b85 If you look at their web site you will find: It is o.k. to go and pray at the local Russian Church but to pray for Taras Shevchenko.... That is not possible! Shame!!

Goshen, IN has never been in Ukraine.

You and your pretend patriarchate and the pretend patriarchate under the Vatican should be very happy together.  So you can leave the Ukrainian Orthodox of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church  alone.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:44:19 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 03:47:23 PM »

Of course I would expect ialmisry to put down the Ukrainian Church, he is the same guy who claims the holodomor was NOT a genocide against the Ukrainian people. Luckily your opinion means nothing...
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 03:48:23 PM »



Cossack you are way off base.  Not sure if you will think my opinion means, anything...

Don't forget it is an Orthodox Church, not the Ukrainian Country Club.

We held a panachida for Taras Shevchenko, however, while he is much loved, he is not a saint, and why should his portrait be in church?   Zapovit, is also great...but, not to be sung in church.

We don't even sing the national anthem in church...neither the Ukrainian, American, Russian, Serbian, Greek, etc.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 03:50:22 PM »


...also it most definitely is Ukrainian.

If you go to the website that you just listed....it says  "Our parish is under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Eparchy of the West for the UOC-USA".
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 03:58:24 PM »

Liza, I don't think requesting a prayer in a Ukrainian Church for Taras Shevchenko makes it a Ukrainian Country Club. What if your priest at your Ukrainian church rejected it, wouldn't people in your parish be mad?
Plus if at your parish, if they removed the sign that said St. Mary Protectress Ukrainan Orthodox Cathedral and replaced it with a sign that said St. Mary Protectress Orthodox Cathedral, don't you think that people at your parish would be mad?
Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 04:02:00 PM »


...also it most definitely is Ukrainian.

If you go to the website that you just listed....it says  "Our parish is under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Eparchy of the West for the UOC-USA".

Just because it is under the Greek jurisidiction of the UOCUSA doesn't make it Ukrainian.

St. Anthony of the Desert Mission
c/o Kendrick Chapel
518 No. Alameda
Las Cruces NM 88046
575-524-1071
Pastor: Rev. Gabriel Rochelle

This mission is under the UOCUSA but has absolutley nothing Ukrainian about the mission other than the ethnicity of its bishops...No Ukrainian traditions, no Ukrainian language, nothing, it is as Ukrainian as an OCA parish.

Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 04:03:21 PM »

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2011, 04:03:59 PM »


...and just one more thing...please refer to His Grace Bishop Daniel of the Western Eparchy (Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA) with a bit more respect.

How do you know that His Grace hasn't returned her calls?  How do you even know this woman has phoned him?

Hearsay! 



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 04:05:33 PM »



Cossack you are way off base.  Not sure if you will think my opinion means, anything...

Don't forget it is an Orthodox Church, not the Ukrainian Country Club.

We held a panachida for Taras Shevchenko, however, while he is much loved, he is not a saint, and why should his portrait be in church?   Zapovit, is also great...but, not to be sung in church.

We don't even sing the national anthem in church...neither the Ukrainian, American, Russian, Serbian, Greek, etc.

I've been in Arab, Greek, Russian, Carpatho-Russian, Ukrainian (the real ones), 'Romanian, Albanian, Serbian, Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Coptic, Syriac, Finnish etc. Orthodox Churches and I can't recall ever having patriotic songs sung or national heros commemorated in any of them.  The closest I recall was some visit of the US ambassador to Egypt who was Greek and some official from Cyprus coming to a DL of the Pope's in Cairo, when a boy scout honor guard came in with the Greek flag on their uniforms.

But we have to admit that cossack is consistent in his priorities.  So the schismatics and heretics should be happy together.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 04:06:49 PM »

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?
If Russians ran the Church in Ukraine for three centuries, why stop?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 04:08:48 PM »

Of course I would expect ialmisry to put down the Ukrainian Church, he is the same guy who claims the holodomor was NOT a genocide against the Ukrainian people. Luckily your opinion means nothing...
....nor does your misanalysis.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 04:11:43 PM »

Bishop Daniel has made decisions that have kept parishes that would otherwise be currently closed, opened, and all of these decisions were in accord with the Holy Orthodox Faith.  Also, Fr. Silouan may have stated that the Bishop would back him, but we don't know what actually transpired.  To speculate beyond this is sinful gossipy speculation, as we do not know what afterward transpired between the Bishop and the Priest.   Remember, the Bishop will guide the Priest into better ways he could have handled it, but this is between the parish, the parishioner in question, the priest, and the bishop.  The rest of us have no business in it.  I will not allow Bishop Daniel to be maligned.  Anything that needs corrected in this I have no doubt Bishop Daniel will correct.  He will back any just decisions of the Priest in this area, and will correct any decisions or parts of decisions that were out of line.    

All I know is this:
1.  No one can rightly accuse Bishop Daniel of not loving his homeland
2.  No one can rightly accuse Bishop Daniel of taking actions that are outside the confines of Orthodoxy
3.  Liza's observations are absolutely correct.  


 

  
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?

Just because someone's been doing it for 50 years, doesn't make it right.

Zapovit is to be sung, solemnly, with people standing on their feet...in the parish hall....not inside the church.  It is not a prayer to God...it a man's last will and testament.

I love Taras...and I pray for him, but, he is not a saint.

You need to take a step back and realize the difference between nationalism and Orthodoxy.

They both are important, but, they have their own place and time.

Cossack,  I feel your pain.  You always seem to feel like the victim...due to your great love for Ukraine.

Keep loving her, keep protecting her...but, not from Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy is NOT her enemy.

The UOCofUSA, believe it or not...is preserving Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and is also NOT your enemy!

We need to work together to promote Ukrainian Orthodoxy.

You, slinging mud at our Ukrainian hierarchs, at MY Ukrainian Orthodox Church....is not making things better for Ukraine.  Can't you see this?  It's making Ukrainians look bad in the eyes of the rest of the canonical Orthodox Churches.

By making Ukrainian heirarchs presumably "look bad" you are hurting Ukraine. 

I suggest you take a step back and reconsider your words.

Don't let your love for Ukraine, actually do her more damage than good.



 
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2011, 04:19:16 PM »


Cossack you are way off base.  Not sure if you will think my opinion means, anything...

Don't forget it is an Orthodox Church, not the Ukrainian Country Club.

We held a panachida for Taras Shevchenko, however, while he is much loved, he is not a saint, and why should his portrait be in church?   Zapovit, is also great...but, not to be sung in church.

We don't even sing the national anthem in church...neither the Ukrainian, American, Russian, Serbian, Greek, etc.

Liza, your fingertips have penned such a precise and concise answer to this.   You basically said all that has needed to be said.  I expect, however, that there is more to come here anyway. 
Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 04:20:46 PM »

father HLLL, I can acuse the Bishop of the truth, he and the other 2 hierarchs sold out the Ukrainian church to the Eccumenical Patriarchate in 1995 (well in fairness, Bishop Daniel was a Catholic at that time and today is more of a rubber stamp for the Eccumenical Patriachate)

They are NOT Ukrainian bishops but Greek Bishops of Ukrainian descent.
 
Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.

The UOCUSA bishops have to be approved by Constantinople just as Uki Catholic bishops must be approved by Rome. Just as the Ukrainian Catholic Church is under the Vatican, the UOCUSA is under Constantinople.

Father Harry, I mean no disrespect to you Converts are not a problem....unless, they have been indoctrinated with a false history of orthodoxy in Ukraine and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Diaspora. And propagate such beliefs. For instance, if the priest believes that the only church that has merit in Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate because it is "canonical" he should not serve in a church that was built by ukrainians in direct protest of such beliefs. All the churches in the diaspora were built while the UOC in The USA was an autocephalous church and always believed itself a part of an independent church. Since the subjugation of the UOC in  the USA to Constantinople, no churches have been built and many are closing. Coincidence? I think not. As long as the convert priest acknowledges and respects the wishes of a Ukrainian congregation and does not try to create a melting pot, while to busy to promote what is ukrainian and what built the church, I see no issues. How are they allowed to be in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church without knowing completely the history and beliefs of the ukrainian people. If they want a pan-orthodox church, why choose the ukrainian orthodox church? Perhaps many are not accepted by the big jurisdictions or have had issues in other jurisdictions? This also the lay person must find out after the fact and after the damage is done in many cases. Certain clergy are a problem no matter if they are converts or not, but one must question the motives of a non-ukrainian joining a ukrainian orthodox church, just as you see no greek or bulgarian priest asking to be a part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church etc...We should not generalize or pass judgement until the actions of such clergy make it necessary.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 04:21:30 PM »

Well said. 

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?

Just because someone's been doing it for 50 years, doesn't make it right.

Zapovit is to be sung, solemnly, with people standing on their feet...in the parish hall....not inside the church.  It is not a prayer to God...it a man's last will and testament.

I love Taras...and I pray for him, but, he is not a saint.

You need to take a step back and realize the difference between nationalism and Orthodoxy.

They both are important, but, they have their own place and time.

Cossack,  I feel your pain.  You always seem to feel like the victim...due to your great love for Ukraine.

Keep loving her, keep protecting her...but, not from Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy is NOT her enemy.

The UOCofUSA, believe it or not...is preserving Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and is also NOT your enemy!

We need to work together to promote Ukrainian Orthodoxy.

You, slinging mud at our Ukrainian hierarchs, at MY Ukrainian Orthodox Church....is not making things better for Ukraine.  Can't you see this?  It's making Ukrainians look bad in the eyes of the rest of the canonical Orthodox Churches.

By making Ukrainian heirarchs presumably "look bad" you are hurting Ukraine. 

I suggest you take a step back and reconsider your words.

Don't let your love for Ukraine, actually do her more damage than good.



 
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 04:24:44 PM »

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?
If Russians ran the Church in Ukraine for three centuries, why stop?

Right, the "this is the way it has been for x years" argument is not a good one, as Liza and Isa have both stated.   We can see this carry over in Isa's statement here (not that Isa is arguing for it, but rather that it is founded on the same logical fallacy). 

Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 04:35:20 PM »

father HLLL, I can acuse the Bishop of the truth, he and the other 2 hierarchs sold out the Ukrainian church to the Eccumenical Patriarchate in 1995 (well in fairness, Bishop Daniel was a Catholic at that time and today is more of a rubber stamp for the Eccumenical Patriachate)

You can also accuse them of genocide. With no proofs this is just a slander.

Quote
They are NOT Ukrainian bishops but Greek Bishops of Ukrainian descent.

According to your logic Card. Husar is an Italian Bishop, Abp Jonah Mwanza is a Greek Bishop and Taras Shevchenko is a Russian writer. Makes perfect sense.
 
Quote
Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.

It's not a Parish but a vibrant local Church.

Quote
The UOCUSA bishops have to be approved by Constantinople just as Uki Catholic bishops must be approved by Rome. Just as the Ukrainian Catholic Church is under the Vatican, the UOCUSA is under Constantinople.

Really? I thought that only UOC-USA Primates have to be approved by the Constantinople what makes them more autonomous than the UGCC is.

Quote
As long as the convert priest acknowledges and respects the wishes of a Ukrainian congregation and does not try to create a melting pot, while to busy to promote what is ukrainian and what built the church, I see no issues. How are they allowed to be in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church without knowing completely the history and beliefs of the ukrainian people. If they want a pan-orthodox church, why choose the ukrainian orthodox church? Perhaps many are not accepted by the big jurisdictions or have had issues in other jurisdictions?

Did Jesus said that all believers have to be Ukrainian?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 04:44:21 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 04:36:21 PM »


...also it most definitely is Ukrainian.

If you go to the website that you just listed....it says  "Our parish is under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Eparchy of the West for the UOC-USA".

Just because it is under the Greek jurisidiction of the UOCUSA doesn't make it Ukrainian.

St. Anthony of the Desert Mission
c/o Kendrick Chapel
518 No. Alameda
Las Cruces NM 88046
575-524-1071
Pastor: Rev. Gabriel Rochelle

This mission is under the UOCUSA but has absolutley nothing Ukrainian about the mission other than the ethnicity of its bishops...No Ukrainian traditions, no Ukrainian language, nothing, it is as Ukrainian as an OCA parish.



Cossack...are those parishioners complaining....or is just you?

...and if you tell me they are...I'll tell you they aren't.  You are not the only one who "knows" people.


Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.


...maybe you remain anonymous to us because you are not confident in your own words, and don't want them to come back to haunt you at some future date.

I really don't care who you are...I would repeat my words to your face, if I saw you.   Wink

Next time we "meet", please introduce yourself.  You have nothing to fear from me, other than hearing the truth.  



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »

Of course it is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, so what?  Incidentally, so was the UOCA for decades, so not all Ukrainian Orthodox parishes were formed under the autocephalous church.  Likewise, many of our parishes were "convert" parishes from the Eastern Catholics.   Incidentally, in Orthodox canon law, as well as its theology, the term "convert" refers to an apostate who has repented and turned back to the Church and is under penance as a co-stander.  Your use of it here is a Roman Catholic usage.  The term "neophyte" (newly illumined) refers to one who has recently become Orthodox, whether child or adult, after which they move from being "neophyte-faithful" to simply being one of the faithful (40 days they are communed as "newly illumined).   So what if Bishop Daniel was (not is--was) a "convert" (neophyte) from UCC as an adult?   Also, even though I am only "partially" Ukrainian by descent, my cousins who were "baptized Ukrainian" are no longer with Ukrainian church.  They are now whatever their spouses are.  Why?  Because their spouses were treated as second rate citizens, and even they were, as they speak mostly only English.  How about my wife?  Her grandmother was born in the same town as Archbishop Vsevolod.  But maybe he is not Ukrainian enough either.  

father HLLL, I can acuse the Bishop of the truth, he and the other 2 hierarchs sold out the Ukrainian church to the Eccumenical Patriarchate in 1995 (well in fairness, Bishop Daniel was a Catholic at that time and today is more of a rubber stamp for the Eccumenical Patriachate)

They are NOT Ukrainian bishops but Greek Bishops of Ukrainian descent.
 
Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.

The UOCUSA bishops have to be approved by Constantinople just as Uki Catholic bishops must be approved by Rome. Just as the Ukrainian Catholic Church is under the Vatican, the UOCUSA is under Constantinople.

Father Harry, I mean no disrespect to you Converts are not a problem....unless, they have been indoctrinated with a false history of orthodoxy in Ukraine and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Diaspora. And propagate such beliefs. For instance, if the priest believes that the only church that has merit in Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate because it is "canonical" he should not serve in a church that was built by ukrainians in direct protest of such beliefs. All the churches in the diaspora were built while the UOC in The USA was an autocephalous church and always believed itself a part of an independent church. Since the subjugation of the UOC in  the USA to Constantinople, no churches have been built and many are closing. Coincidence? I think not. As long as the convert priest acknowledges and respects the wishes of a Ukrainian congregation and does not try to create a melting pot, while to busy to promote what is ukrainian and what built the church, I see no issues. How are they allowed to be in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church without knowing completely the history and beliefs of the ukrainian people. If they want a pan-orthodox church, why choose the ukrainian orthodox church? Perhaps many are not accepted by the big jurisdictions or have had issues in other jurisdictions? This also the lay person must find out after the fact and after the damage is done in many cases. Certain clergy are a problem no matter if they are converts or not, but one must question the motives of a non-ukrainian joining a ukrainian orthodox church, just as you see no greek or bulgarian priest asking to be a part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church etc...We should not generalize or pass judgement until the actions of such clergy make it necessary.

U-word removed - Michał Kalina.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 05:02:29 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 04:56:49 PM »


Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.


Uh, that sounds kind of...ominous? Not quite threatening, but yikes.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
starosta
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOCUSA
Posts: 8


« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2011, 05:00:18 PM »

Our churches here in the US were founded by Ukrainian people for the worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation.

They were not founded with the primary reason being to preserve the culture. Yes, the (diaspora) culture has been maintained and has evolved with the help of the parishes, but our parishes are for the worship of God.

We have so much in our community for culture-- ODUM, Plast, CYM, bandura, Saturday schools, Soyuzivka, dance groups, cultural centers, UCCA, etc., etc. These, in addition to cultural programs that are hosted in parish halls, are where the Ukrainian culture is expressed in the diaspora.

What happens inside the church should be the worship of Jesus Christ and the reception of the Holy Mysteries, not cultural presentations. I have known of parishes that have held panakhydas for Ukrainian patriots: Shevchenko, Petliura, Kytasty, and so on. The remembrance of our deceased relatives, friends, cultural figures, patriots is very important. However, Shevchenko programs should be held in church halls, as should dance concerts, pysanka festivals, bandura concerts, and the like.

I cannot speak to what has or has not transpired in Indiana as I am not a parishioner there nor do I know any of the parties involved. Yet, we must make sure our main focus as a Church is the worship of Jesus Christ, and not Ukraine.

One last thought... Our churches are vastly empty across North America. Where are our youth? Have they left because of Eucharistic Communion with Constantinople? Have they all left in mass protest? Or do they not come to our parishes because some of our parishes have become museums of Ukrainian Orthodoxy and how our people worshiped circa 1972? Is it because the world and our secular American culture is far too tempting? Is it because our services were in Ukrainian and they only speak English? Is it because culture took priority over God?
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »


Bravo!
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2011, 05:15:22 PM »

father HLLL, I can acuse the Bishop of the truth, he and the other 2 hierarchs sold out the Ukrainian church to the Eccumenical Patriarchate in 1995 (well in fairness, Bishop Daniel was a Catholic at that time and today is more of a rubber stamp for the Eccumenical Patriachate)
"propoganda" is not Latin for "truth," cossack.  If healing schism is selling out, then you have nothing to sell, so stop peddling your merchandise.

They are NOT Ukrainian bishops but Greek Bishops of Ukrainian descent.
So, when did the blood change in your "patriarch's" veins.  Wasn't Filoret a Russian bishop of Ukrainian descent before? Did he become a Ukrainian bishop in the process of being defrocked?

I guess we have to write off most of the history of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine before the reunion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, as most of the metropolitians of Kiev and elsewhere were Greek, Bulgarian, etc. bishops of Greek, Bulgarian etc. descent.

Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kiev and All Ukraine is a Ukrianian bishop of Ukrainian discent, birth, education and residence. I don't know about the facts surrounding Bp. Daniel and the rest of the Ukrainian hiearchy, except that they are Orthodox and Ukrainians tell me that they are Ukrainian.
 
Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.

They've never denied that, just your ravings on it.

The UOCUSA bishops have to be approved by Constantinople just as Uki Catholic bishops must be approved by Rome. Just as the Ukrainian Catholic Church is under the Vatican, the UOCUSA is under Constantinople.

Like any Protestant church, yours needs no approval for your bishops.  Btw, IIRC Met. Volodymyr doesn't need any approval, besides his own Church, for his bishops.

Father Harry, I mean no disrespect to you Converts are not a problem....unless, they have been indoctrinated with a false history of orthodoxy in Ukraine and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Diaspora. And propagate such beliefs.
i.e. Truth.

For instance, if the priest believes that the only church that has merit in Ukraine is the Moscow Patriarchate because it is "canonical" he should not serve in a church that was built by ukrainians in direct protest of such beliefs.

If it was set up as a Ukrainian Protestant church of the eastern rite, it is free to make up its own rules as it goes along.  If it was set up by Ukrainians to propogate the Orthodox Faith, then it has to follow the rules the Fathers laid down.

All the churches in the diaspora were built while the UOC in The USA was an autocephalous church
There was no autocephalous Church in the USA before 1970.  There were and are a lot of ecclesiastical communities who have no link to the Apostles and hence are independent, being founded by others.

and always believed itself a part of an independent church.



Since the subjugation of the UOC in  the USA to Constantinople, no churches have been built and many are closing. Coincidence? I think not.
Like any Protestant, you are free to think anything you like.

As long as the convert priest acknowledges and respects the wishes of a Ukrainian congregation and does not try to create a melting pot, while to busy to promote what is ukrainian and what built the church, I see no issues.
So while there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave, there is Ukrainian and non-Ukrainian.

St. Paul tells us to anathematize anyone who comes with another gospel.

How are they allowed to be in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church without knowing completely the history and beliefs of the ukrainian people.

You believe in a monolithic, nationist, ethnocentric and Ukrainian church.

The Ukrainian Orthodox believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

If they want a pan-orthodox church, why choose the ukrainian orthodox church?
Why not? The Ukranians are as Orthodox as anyone else and more so, and had a lot to do with the bringing of Orthodoxy to North America.

Perhaps many are not accepted by the big jurisdictions or have had issues in other jurisdictions?

Maybe they love Ukraine and Ukrianians, and how they do Orthodoxy.

This also the lay person must find out after the fact and after the damage is done in many cases.
Well, you expertise in damage can't be disputed.

Certain clergy are a problem no matter if they are converts or not, but one must question the motives of a non-ukrainian joining a ukrainian orthodox church,
As long as they are Orthodox, no, one must not.  You protestants are free to conduct your witch hunt on your own turf.

just as you see no greek or bulgarian priest asking to be a part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church etc...We should not generalize or pass judgement until the actions of such clergy make it necessary.
Like when they take a defrocked hierarch as their primate.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2011, 05:18:25 PM »


...also it most definitely is Ukrainian.

If you go to the website that you just listed....it says  "Our parish is under the guidance of Bishop Daniel of the Eparchy of the West for the UOC-USA".

Just because it is under the Greek jurisidiction of the UOCUSA doesn't make it Ukrainian.

St. Anthony of the Desert Mission
c/o Kendrick Chapel
518 No. Alameda
Las Cruces NM 88046
575-524-1071
Pastor: Rev. Gabriel Rochelle

This mission is under the UOCUSA but has absolutley nothing Ukrainian about the mission other than the ethnicity of its bishops...No Ukrainian traditions, no Ukrainian language, nothing, it is as Ukrainian as an OCA parish.



Cossack...are those parishioners complaining....or is just you?

...and if you tell me they are...I'll tell you they aren't.  You are not the only one who "knows" people.


Father Harry and Pani Liza, I have met you both in the past yet will keep my identity anonymous. Just admit that the UOCUSA is parish under the Eccumenical Patriachate.


...maybe you remain anonymous to us because you are not confident in your own words, and don't want them to come back to haunt you at some future date.

I really don't care who you are...I would repeat my words to your face, if I saw you.   Wink

Next time we "meet", please introduce yourself.  You have nothing to fear from me, other than hearing the truth.  
But that might set him free.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2011, 05:25:37 PM »

Besides if Holy Trinity has conducted the Zapovit and Taras Shevchenko day for 50 years, why stop?
If Russians ran the Church in Ukraine for three centuries, why stop?

Right, the "this is the way it has been for x years" argument is not a good one, as Liza and Isa have both stated.   We can see this carry over in Isa's statement here (not that Isa is arguing for it, but rather that it is founded on the same logical fallacy). 
Indeed! I argue quite the opposite.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2011, 05:35:01 PM »

Thank you starosta.  To the question:  where are our youth?  Certainly some of them are in our parish here.  Today was a "low attendance" Sunday with 12 youth.  Last week was 18.   "High attendance" Sundays yield 20-30.   And we are a small parish. 

Our churches here in the US were founded by Ukrainian people for the worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation.

They were not founded with the primary reason being to preserve the culture. Yes, the (diaspora) culture has been maintained and has evolved with the help of the parishes, but our parishes are for the worship of God.

We have so much in our community for culture-- ODUM, Plast, CYM, bandura, Saturday schools, Soyuzivka, dance groups, cultural centers, UCCA, etc., etc. These, in addition to cultural programs that are hosted in parish halls, are where the Ukrainian culture is expressed in the diaspora.

What happens inside the church should be the worship of Jesus Christ and the reception of the Holy Mysteries, not cultural presentations. I have known of parishes that have held panakhydas for Ukrainian patriots: Shevchenko, Petliura, Kytasty, and so on. The remembrance of our deceased relatives, friends, cultural figures, patriots is very important. However, Shevchenko programs should be held in church halls, as should dance concerts, pysanka festivals, bandura concerts, and the like.

I cannot speak to what has or has not transpired in Indiana as I am not a parishioner there nor do I know any of the parties involved. Yet, we must make sure our main focus as a Church is the worship of Jesus Christ, and not Ukraine.

One last thought... Our churches are vastly empty across North America. Where are our youth? Have they left because of Eucharistic Communion with Constantinople? Have they all left in mass protest? Or do they not come to our parishes because some of our parishes have become museums of Ukrainian Orthodoxy and how our people worshiped circa 1972? Is it because the world and our secular American culture is far too tempting? Is it because our services were in Ukrainian and they only speak English? Is it because culture took priority over God?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,233


« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2011, 05:38:11 PM »

Finally! A thread that makes me want to use the thread rating feature  police
Logged
John Ward
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Korea
Posts: 217



« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »

That parish is still Orthodox, right? Isn't that what matters?

I've never liked the Church being mixed with nationalism. If someone wants an ethnic club, they should form one. That's not what the Church is there for. I'm of Lebanese descent (my dad is from there). I have been to Churches with all different ethnic titles. Antiochian, Greek, Romanian, Ukrainian, etc. What mattered was they were Orthodox. Even if I am at a predominantly Lebanese parish, I still dislike nationalism being thrown in. Like I said, you want an ethnic club, form one. Don't use the Church as one. Who cares if it is, was or is going to be Ukrainian. That is not the important part.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2011, 06:19:43 PM »

Finally! A thread that makes me want to use the thread rating feature  police

What is the rating feature? 
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,233


« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2011, 06:23:01 PM »

Finally! A thread that makes me want to use the thread rating feature  police

What is the rating feature? 

If you scroll to the top of the thread and look to the right you'll see some stars and the ability to rate a thread, depending on what you think about it.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,500



« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2011, 06:32:33 PM »

Finally! A thread that makes me want to use the thread rating feature  police
What is the rating feature? 
If you scroll to the top of the thread and look to the right you'll see some stars and the ability to rate a thread, depending on what you think about it.
Thanks!
Logged
FrSilouanR
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC-USA
Posts: 2


« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2011, 02:30:53 AM »

Please kindly delete, amend or correct this post as it is filled with libelous falsehoods.  The panachyda was in fact celebrated by Deacon James and me on March 27 as requested by the parish board, no meal was planned or shared, and no such conversation about nationalism was discussed in public or private with or by any of the aforementioned persons in the primary post.

Welcome to the forum Father, we hope you stay and enjoy our discussions here at oc.net.  Thank you for clarifying the original post, however we do not make it policy to remove entire threads unless a moderatorial consensus is needed.  At this point it has been a civil thread and your contribution to the clarification has been noted.  -username! section moderator. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 03:59:35 AM by username! » Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2011, 03:56:45 AM »

His Grace, Bishop Daniel (Zelinsky) of the UocUSA EP is from Івано-Франківськ I believe.  So when the op said none of the UOC USA Bishops were from Ukraine he was wrong. 

Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2011, 06:14:07 PM »

Please kindly delete, amend or correct this post as it is filled with libelous falsehoods.  The panachyda was in fact celebrated by Deacon James and me on March 27 as requested by the parish board, no meal was planned or shared, and no such conversation about nationalism was discussed in public or private with or by any of the aforementioned persons in the primary post.


Thank You, Father Silouan for clearing this up.

Cossack316, what say you now?

...and as for your comments about St. Anthony's in NM...


Just because it is under the Greek jurisidiction of the UOCUSA doesn't make it Ukrainian.

St. Anthony of the Desert Mission
c/o Kendrick Chapel
518 No. Alameda
Las Cruces NM 88046
575-524-1071
Pastor: Rev. Gabriel Rochelle

This mission is under the UOCUSA but has absolutley nothing Ukrainian about the mission other than the ethnicity of its bishops...No Ukrainian traditions, no Ukrainian language, nothing, it is as Ukrainian as an OCA parish.


...see the attached photo.  Do these people look unhappy?  I think they are rather pleased with the way things are.

Why is it that you, Cossack316, are always trying to cause trouble?  You need to put your efforts towards things a bit more productive.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2011, 07:16:08 PM »

Our churches here in the US were founded by Ukrainian people for the worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation.

They were not founded with the primary reason being to preserve the culture. Yes, the (diaspora) culture has been maintained and has evolved with the help of the parishes, but our parishes are for the worship of God.

We have so much in our community for culture-- ODUM, Plast, CYM, bandura, Saturday schools, Soyuzivka, dance groups, cultural centers, UCCA, etc., etc. These, in addition to cultural programs that are hosted in parish halls, are where the Ukrainian culture is expressed in the diaspora.

What happens inside the church should be the worship of Jesus Christ and the reception of the Holy Mysteries, not cultural presentations. I have known of parishes that have held panakhydas for Ukrainian patriots: Shevchenko, Petliura, Kytasty, and so on. The remembrance of our deceased relatives, friends, cultural figures, patriots is very important. However, Shevchenko programs should be held in church halls, as should dance concerts, pysanka festivals, bandura concerts, and the like.

I cannot speak to what has or has not transpired in Indiana as I am not a parishioner there nor do I know any of the parties involved. Yet, we must make sure our main focus as a Church is the worship of Jesus Christ, and not Ukraine.

One last thought... Our churches are vastly empty across North America. Where are our youth? Have they left because of Eucharistic Communion with Constantinople? Have they all left in mass protest? Or do they not come to our parishes because some of our parishes have become museums of Ukrainian Orthodoxy and how our people worshiped circa 1972? Is it because the world and our secular American culture is far too tempting? Is it because our services were in Ukrainian and they only speak English? Is it because culture took priority over God?

POM Nomination!!
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2011, 07:22:07 PM »

For the record, I would congratulate any Orthodox parish that removed the National adjective that precedes the word "Orthodox" in their Church's name.

We go to Church to worship the Trinity; not our ability to congregate under a flag. While I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, it will not get me into the kingdom of heaven.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2011, 08:35:29 PM »

For the record, I would congratulate any Orthodox parish that removed the National adjective that precedes the word "Orthodox" in their Church's name.

We go to Church to worship the Trinity; not our ability to congregate under a flag. While I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, it will not get me into the kingdom of heaven.

Thank God there are people in Ukrainian, Russian, Greek, etc. ethnic parishes still  like yourself Lisa, and Starosta.  There will be a bright future if we have more. I asked My latest Godchild who converted with the name of Timothy Patrick Linahan  why he chose our Cathedral over other Orthodox parishes in the area.  He told me it wzs because it was the only parsh that didn't have an ethnic identity on the sign in front.  He was amazed when he first came and found out it was all in English.  Said he just took it for granted that the services were in the same language of the ethnic identity on the sign.

Because we are a Cathedral and also have a Chapel that can hold about 90+ we now have two priests and two Liturgies!  The first Liturgy is in the Chapel is in Slavonic and the second  (in the main Church) is all English.  What a beautiful sight it is to now see 80+ kids from infants on up waiting patiently with their hands correctly folded on their chest waiting for Communion.  About half who are the children of the parents and grandparents who attend the Slavonic Liturgy.  Our church is blossoming because we are a prish who puts othodoxy in front of everything else.  Because many of us are second and third generation American born, we don't mix religion and politics.  



I was told by one of the immigrants  that they had been warned not to attend our parish since we don't ceebrate Taras's birthday.  How sad!

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 08:43:04 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
FrSilouanR
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC-USA
Posts: 2


« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2011, 12:52:39 AM »

I find no joy in such sites and have no intention of regularly participating in them.  My polite request was aimed primarily at the original poster.  My request still stands and, assuming civility is the norm of this site, I would expect a correction of some kind or a response when I have pointed out so obvious a fabrication.  I can sympathize with the poster if he or she thought it was true; but it does absolve him or her of responsibility of verifying before reposting Facebook rumors.  I have no desire to enter into the secondary discussion of ecclesial-ethnic issues when the primary issue I have is that one Christian has published lies about another Christian without correcting them. 

I would like to express my dismay at the suggestion that this post is civil.  By definition, especially here in the state of Illinois, libel is a matter of civil law (and criminal law in some states), i.e., libel is an attack on civility.  Therefore, I would suggest that the primary post has become an uncivil action now that the facts are known.  Unless, of course, anyone doubts that I stood with a censor in hand chanting «У блаженному успінні вічний упокій подай, Господи, повсячас поминаному слузі Твоєму Тарасу і вчиний йому вічну пам’ять.» If so, be done with it and call me a liar, but one better have the proof; otherwise, the libel is only compounded. 

I will belabor the point: The Illinois Law Manual states:
In Illinois, there are five categories of statements that are considered defamatory per se:
(1) words that impute the commission of a criminal offense;
(2) words that impute infection with a loathsome communicable disease;
(3) words that impute an inability to perform or want of integrity in the
discharge of the duties of one’s office or employment;
(4) words that prejudice a party, or impute a lack of ability, in his or her
trade, profession, or business; and
(5) words stating false accusations of fornication or adultery.

I believe 3 and 4 would apply here.

To leave the original post unmolested seems uncharitable and irresponsible.  As a Christian I expect to be spoken against falsely and can rejoice in it; However, it does not follow that anyone should let dishonesty go unmarked and unchallenged at least for the sake of the healing of the one who has sinned knowingly through bearing falsehoods.  St. Paul is clear on this in 1 Cor 6:9-10: Хіба ви не знаєте, що неправедні не вспадкують Божого Царства? Не обманюйте себе: ні розпусники, ні ідоляни, ні перелюбники, ні блудодійники, ні мужоложники, ні злодії, ні користолюбці, ні п'яниці, ні злоріки, ні хижаки Царства Божого не вспадкують вони!

Fr. Silouan
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:55:55 AM by FrSilouanR » Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 923


« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2011, 10:52:22 AM »


To leave the original post unmolested seems uncharitable and irresponsible.  As a Christian I expect to be spoken against falsely and can rejoice in it; However, it does not follow that anyone should let dishonesty go unmarked and unchallenged at least for the sake of the healing of the one who has sinned knowingly through bearing falsehoods.  St. Paul is clear on this in 1 Cor 6:9-10: Хіба ви не знаєте, що неправедні не вспадкують Божого Царства? Не обманюйте себе: ні розпусники, ні ідоляни, ні перелюбники, ні блудодійники, ні мужоложники, ні злодії, ні користолюбці, ні п'яниці, ні злоріки, ні хижаки Царства Божого не вспадкують вони!

Fr. Silouan



I think Father you cannot force our moderators to censor posts.  This is a discussion group and we can only deal with facts.  The person who made the original complaint, a Mrs. Lucenko has chosen not to come on this group and state her case.  Frankly, I don't think this internet discussion group is the right place to settle this problem.  It should be handled by your parish council working with your bishop.  The parish council and the bishop or his representative should question both you and then Mrs. Lucenko.

But also shame on the original poster for bringing up a subject that is not theological or spiritual to begin with.  What did he hope to acheve other than engage in petty gossip.  And I think you Father have only added to the problem.  This is an internal disput that cannot be settled on the internet.  What I think doesn't really matter.  It is up to your parish council and your bishop to deal with the problem.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,461


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2011, 11:00:48 AM »


This thread is locked pending its review by the moderation staff
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Alive
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2011, 11:51:33 AM »



  Zapovit, is also great...

ZAPOVIT:

As Soon I die , You should to buried Me, in grave in place, where I can see  blood of enemy of Ukraine would be carry away by river Dnepr into black see, after that I will go to God for pray, but until it take place – I wish to do not know the God.
T.G. Shevchenko

What part of it you think is “great”?
Logged
Alive
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2011, 11:51:33 AM »

For the record, I would congratulate any Orthodox parish that removed the National adjective that precedes the word "Orthodox" in their Church's name.

We go to Church to worship the Trinity; not our ability to congregate under a flag. While I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, it will not get me into the kingdom of heaven.

for first you need to removed the National adjective from your profile:
"Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA "
Logged
Alive
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2011, 11:51:33 AM »

Our churches here in the US were founded by Ukrainian people for the worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation.

It was presented as worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation….

Them may do it within any recognised Orthodox community. But it not suit them.
Them need special “Ukrainian one” – pride.




What happens inside the church should be the worship of Jesus Christ and the reception of the Holy Mysteries, not cultural presentations. I have known of parishes that have held panakhydas for Ukrainian patriots: Shevchenko, Petliura, Kytasty, and so on. The remembrance of our deceased relatives, friends, cultural figures, patriots is very important. However, Shevchenko programs should be held in church halls, as should dance concerts, pysanka festivals, bandura concerts, and the like.
what reletion you with:
- Shevchenko,
- Petliura,
- Kytasty

to pray for them?

Ukrainian patriotizm have no thing to do with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, to make offical church rememberensy. If it you relatives and you do personal petition i do appritiate, but official church memorial for what?


dance concerts in church...... madness.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2011, 07:41:06 PM »



  Zapovit, is also great...

ZAPOVIT:

As Soon I die , You should to buried Me, in grave in place, where I can see  blood of enemy of Ukraine would be carry away by river Dnepr into black see, after that I will go to God for pray, but until it take place – I wish to do not know the God.
T.G. Shevchenko

What part of it you think is “great”?


This is the zapovit I am referring to:


Як умру, то поховайте
Мене на могилі
Серед степу широкого
На Вкраїні милій,
Щоб лани широкополі,
І Дніпро, і кручі
Було видно, було чути,
Як реве ревучий.

Поховайте та вставайте,
Кайдани порвіте
І вражою злою кров’ю
Волю окропіте.
І мене в сем’ї великій,
В сем’ї вольній, новій,
Не забудьте пом’янути
Незлим тихим словом.

Translated to mean something like this (only it flows and rhymes much better in Ukrainian):

When I die, bury
Me in a grave
In the middle of the wide steppe
In my gentle Ukraine,
So that the vast fields
And the Dnipre River and slopes
One can hear, one can see
As it roars (referring to the river.)

Bury me and rise  up
Break your chains
And with courageous blood
Freedom gain.
And me, in the large family
In the free and new family,
Don’t forget to remember me
With a quiet and peaceful word.

I was never aware of the line you quoted...although I have searched and found that you are correct, there is such a version.  We NEVER sing that, and it was news to me.

However, before you judge the author of those words, you need to know in what situation he found himself at the time.  The man was imprisoned, tortured, belittled...all for being Ukrainian.   You cannot judge the desperation he found himself in - cold, alone, hungry and imprisoned simply for want of freedom.  His whole life was one tragedy after another...after another...after...

Who of us has never sinned?  Don't judge him.  We are not worthy to judge this man.  Until you have suffered as he did, and found yourself to be as desperate and lost...you cannot possibly understand his words.

However, let it be known that those lines have never, ever, been repeated in my life.  I have never heard them, until I searched and found them.  They are never part of the Zapovit that we remember on his memorial day.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2011, 07:50:04 PM »

Our churches here in the US were founded by Ukrainian people for the worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation.

It was presented as worship of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Hope and our Salvation….

Them may do it within any recognised Orthodox community. But it not suit them.
Them need special “Ukrainian one” – pride.


...actually they prayed in Ukrainian, because that was the ONLY language they could speak.  I suppose they could have just stood there and babbled nonsense...but, I think it's more prudent to understand the prayer you are reciting.





What happens inside the church should be the worship of Jesus Christ and the reception of the Holy Mysteries, not cultural presentations. I have known of parishes that have held panakhydas for Ukrainian patriots: Shevchenko, Petliura, Kytasty, and so on. The remembrance of our deceased relatives, friends, cultural figures, patriots is very important. However, Shevchenko programs should be held in church halls, as should dance concerts, pysanka festivals, bandura concerts, and the like.
what reletion you with:
- Shevchenko,
- Petliura,
- Kytasty

to pray for them?

Ukrainian patriotizm have no thing to do with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, to make offical church rememberensy. If it you relatives and you do personal petition i do appritiate, but official church memorial for what?


dance concerts in church...... madness.


Shevchenko, Petlura, etc...are national heroes, just like George Washington, Lincoln is to America....or King Richard and Shakespeare to Britain.  We honor them as such...however, nobody has EVER prayed to these men.  What in the world are you talking about?

Are they our relatives?  Maybe, maybe not.  What difference does it make?  We pray for all our dead.  We also prayer for the millions killed in the genocide Holodomor, those who perished under Soviet stupidity that lead to Chornobyl, we pray for the young students who died in Kruty...in an attempt to stop the Russian advance upon their homeland....we pray for my grandmother, my grandfather, my uncle...and all Ukrainians....and ALL Orthodox living and deceased.
Again...you are so confused.

As for "dance concerts in church"....huh?  What are you talking about?

Nobody ever dances in our churches...nor holds any concerts.

I think you need an education before you keep posting...and only make a bigger fool of yourself, than you seem now.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,520



WWW
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2011, 12:46:30 PM »


She and others have been surprised before as approximately 1 year ago, Bishop Daniel approved the sign "Holy Trinity Ukrainian Orthodox Church" be taken down. Eyewitnesses added that they tossed it in a dumpster and put up a new one without the word "Ukrainian".....


I was going to leave resting dogs...to rest.

However, after a number of PM's I have received, I would like to make one more ditch effort to make it clear to the readers of this thread that the initial post is composed of falsehoods.

The proof is in the pudding.

Please see the attached photo (the pudding) of only one example of the lie being perpetuated.  The supposed sign that was thrown unceremoniously in to the dumpster, still stands, and still says "Ukrainian Orthodox".

I don't know what you people want to achieve by slinging false accusations at the UOC.

I can only imagine these are the purple demons utilizing you to get to their own vile goals of destroying Orthodoxy. 

Don't let your heart lead your actions....use your brains.  The heart is too passionate, this calls for logic, not passion.  Take a step back and think before you act.  Your actions in defending "Ukraine", are not only hurting her, but, hurting Orthodoxy.

It is not Ukraine that has come to the aid of millions of suffering Ukrainians - it was the Lord.  It is not the piece of land that helped the Ukrainian people persevere through all manner of hardship and persecution - but, the Lord.  It was not Ukraine that managed to have the communist hold melt away as gently as wax before a flame - but the Lord.  We have only achieved our successes with the Lord's help. 

In the end it will not be Ukraine that will grant you (hopefully) eternal salvation - but, the Lord.

Keep your eye on the Lord, and all things are possible.

Put GOD first....and Ukraine will reap the benefits.  Put Ukraine first, and Ukraine is lost.

I truly understand where you are coming from and where you are trying to go, but, I cannot agree with your methods of getting there.

Peace and love to all.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 75 queries.