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Author Topic: Ethiopian Orthodox Church & St Dioscorus  (Read 1987 times) Average Rating: 0
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oriental_orthodox
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« on: April 03, 2011, 12:20:32 PM »

Does the Ethiopian Orthodox Church view St Dioscorus as a saint? Do all the Oriental Orthodox Churches view St Dioscorus as a saint?
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geovar
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 12:32:08 PM »

Yes - The Indian , Syrian, Coptic, Armenian , Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox confess St. Dioscorus as Saint
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 05:12:26 PM »

He is not on the Armenian calendar, but I think Armenians can look upon him as a saint in as much as he is a saint in our sister Churches.  I'm pretty sure he is on the Ethiopian calendar.
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 01:28:29 AM »

From the “Anaphora of St. Dioscorus” in The Divine Liturgy of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church:

The Anaphora of St. Dioscorus; may his prayer and blessing be with our Patriarch and Our Bishop, and may he watch over Ethiopia, world without end. Amen.

…Let none of us think when He eats of this bread that he eats mere flesh without blood and Spirit. Let none of us think when he drinks of this cup that he drinks mere blood without body and Spirit; but one is the body, blood, and Spirit as His divinity became one with His humanity, world without end…

One is the holy Father, one is the holy Son, one is the Holy Spirit. Amen….



Selam


« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 01:43:48 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 01:47:19 AM »

May this Holy God-bearing Father and Confessor of the Orthodox faith pray for us all, O Christ our God through the prayers of our Teacher Dioscorus have mercy on us!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 01:47:37 AM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 11:51:02 AM »

But why have I never heard any good about him fom non OO sources?

'Dioscorus...was soon to lead one of the great churches of Christendom to ruination..' From John Anthony McGuckin's intro to his translation of ST Cyril's On The Unity Of Christ.

Elsewhere, from a Baptist writer he comes over as a thug.

So what was so good about and why is h considered so bad?
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 11:58:03 AM »

He refused to accept Pope Leo's Tome and defended the Oriental Orthodox position at Chalcedon.  Those who accept Chalcedon and the Tome have therefore historically painted him as a bad guy.

You may want to click on the tag below and do more reading about him, as he has already been discussed a great deal here.  You'll find your questions fully answered by reading the other threads which have discussed him.  
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 12:26:38 PM »

Father Richard Price, one of the great Catholic scholars of our time, describes St Dioscorus as a 'second Athanasius'.

Much non-OO writing about the OO tradition has unfortunately been filled with error and a lack of understanding. It seems to me that it is necessary to ask on what foundation of knowledge anyone writes about St Dioscorus. If it is only on the basis of hearsay, of repeating what others have said, then it does not seem to me that such writings are of much value.

I think that I know most of the writings and words available to us from St Dioscorus, I am presently translating his life. He does not appear to me to be a thug, or to have been anything more than the honourable and principles man that the OO have always understood and remembered him to be. Much indeed, of which he is accused, patently never happened.

We know, for instance, that he was aware that by going to Chalcedon he was going to his doom, but he went anyhow. And when deserted by all he sat alone rather than become a traitor to himself like Juvenal. It is not surprising that he has been described as being a new Elijah standing before the prophets of Baal. (I don't mean that so much in criticism of his opponents, but rather in the sense of his principled courage). We know that the Emperor and Empress privately offered him all manner of inducements to abandon his position, but he refused.

We know, for instance, that Flavian was not killed at Chalcedon, and that he was ending letters many months later. Indeed the great Church historian, Henry Chadwick, believes that he was held in the Imperial palace after Anatolius had replaced him, and he was quietly removed by Marcian and Pulcheria when he had served his purpose.

I have not been able to find anything that makes me critical of him.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 09:22:27 PM »

But why have I never heard any good about him fom non OO sources?

'Dioscorus...was soon to lead one of the great churches of Christendom to ruination..' From John Anthony McGuckin's intro to his translation of ST Cyril's On The Unity Of Christ.

Elsewhere, from a Baptist writer he comes over as a thug.

So what was so good about and why is h considered so bad?
I've yet to find any concrete evidence that St Dioscorus was a "thug". Furthermore, it seems as if many of the Alexandrian Patriarchs are accused of being violent men. I think atheist scholars try to discredit the Alexandrian Popes most of all because they were some of the most vehement defenders of the Christian faith. Saints Theophilus, Athanasius, Cyril, & Alexander were all Alexandrian Popes and all of them are accused by modern "scholars" as being "thugs" . St Dioscorus' "crimes" were never specified at the council of Chalcedon, some of his enemies accused him of petty misdeeds and then asked for his forgiveness, they cried “We have sinned and we ask for forgiveness”. None of this Holy Father's contemporaries charged him with Flavian's murder. For McGuckin to accuse this Saint of "bringing one of Christendom's greatest Churches to ruin" is ignorant, untrue, non-scholarly, and just plain blood-boiling! Nay, the Holy Orthodox Church of Alexandria (I.e. the Anti-Chalcedonian one) continued to be one of the greatest Churches in Christendom. Not in spite of St. Dioscorus' rejection of Chalcedon, but, because of it. Despite Chalcedonian and Muslim efforts to bring this Church to ruination she continued to survive, and even unto this day she still brings forth great Saints.

P.S. St Dioscorus was St Cyril's right hand man, the fact that he rejected Chalcedon, I think, gives a significant indication as to how St Cyril would have felt about this council had he lived to attend it.

P.P.S. If you want a more balanced view of Saint Dioscorus, I recommend you read Story of the Copts by Iris Habib Almisry.

God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 10:06:16 PM »

The Acts of the Council of Chalcedon have quite a few testimonies, by participants in Ephesus 449, to Dioscorus' use of force and bullying tactics. And at least one witness says that St. Flavian was murdered.
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 10:17:20 PM »

The Acts of the Council of Chalcedon have quite a few testimonies, by participants in Ephesus 449, to Dioscorus' use of force and bullying tactics. And at least one witness says that St. Flavian was murdered.
Perhaps you could be right, in the book I mentioned above it did say that a few Bishops accused Dioscorus of murdering Flavian, but, they later recanted asking for his forgiveness (of course this could be a historical error on the part of the author). The Emperor Theodosius described the Council of Ephesus II as being "controlled by the fear of God". Could you please cite your sources? Not because I doubt you, but because I would like to investigate them myself and learn more. But, Flavian was writing letters month after his supposed murder, and Henry Chadwick said that Flavian most likely died in imperial custody months after Ephesus II. Furthermore, while some of Ephesus II's attendants did accuse St Dioscorus of "bullying" by forcing them to sign blank papers, the minutes of the council show that the decision reached at that council was unanimous and completely canonical. St Dioscorus made a good point regarding those who accused him of forcing people to sign blank papers, that is, no matter how much a Bishop is threatened with violence, he should never submit to anyone who tries to harm the faith. I would recommend you PM Father Peter if you want any more information regarding Ephesus II, he has studied it very well, I am trying to buy Perry's translation of the council's minutes, but, I have not as of yet actually you can read the minutes of the council for free here, however, it is quite lengthy (459 pages to be exact).

God bless,
Severian     
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 10:49:45 PM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 01:52:46 AM »

We know, for instance, that Flavian was not killed at Chalcedon, and that he was ending letters many months later. Indeed the great Church historian, Henry Chadwick, believes that he was held in the Imperial palace after Anatolius had replaced him, and he was quietly removed by Marcian and Pulcheria when he had served his purpose.


For my own edification, is there a source on the internet that can be linked for this information (either a link to Flavian's letters, or a link to Chadwick?)  If not, is it possible to give some other citation for this?
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 02:46:17 AM »

Henry Chadwick's paper was published in the Journal of Theological Studies. Do you have access to any online academic journal databases?
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 02:49:14 AM »

Someone just gave me the information.  Thank you.   Smiley
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 03:02:06 AM by Salpy » Logged

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