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we must not fall into some kind of Orthodox Fundamentalism. Even the Church Fathers contradict one another, and so when a Saint says something, we need to investigate it and make sure it is in conformity with Orthodoxy.
After some investigation of the topic. It turns out that Elder Paisios may not have actually written certain things about the End Times. The articles that are on the internet have no citations, no sources. They are simply copy/pastes of one another and have been spread (it seems) by word of mouth. They have no basis to support themselves. Therefore we absolutely must question their authenticity and their validity.
You cannot believe everything you read on the internet.
The same can be said about Fr. Seraphim Rose. I've seen some articles on the internet that claim to be by him, yet have no references, no citations, no supporting backbone to show that they are authentically from him.
Again, the lesson here is that just because something on the internet claims to be from a Saint or from a Church Father, you absolutely MUST question it.
I'm not questioning the validity or the honor of the Saint. I'm merely recognizing that Saints are humans too, and during their lives, they also made mistakes and wrote things that aren't true. (take St. Augustine as an example)
I'm also recognizing that some people may write things (or may attribute something to) claiming it comes from the Saint when the Saint actually never said it.
Word-Of-Mouth rumors and hearsay have no basis. One can claim that "Elder Paisios said this..." but unless we have solid proof he said it, then I would say that it should be questioned until proven to be true.
This isn't UnOrthodox, this is called discernment. We are called in scripture to use discernment so that we are not deceived. Just as people (even today) falsely claim to be Christ, so too people will falsely claim to be a Saint, or who claim to know a secret knowledge passed on by that Saint.
I understand your point of view, but I'm just saying that we need to use discernment and proper judgement when reading certain things on the internet (and even in literature).
It isn't showing disrespect to a Saint, it's measuring what they said against Orthodoxy and against the Traditions and Church Fathers. If it measures up, then all is good. If it doesn't measure up, then they are wrong, even as a Saint.
i dont know about Elder Paisios, but Fr. Seraphim definitely had things to say about the end times, you can hear it on his Living the Orthodox Worldview CD.
but the issue i have is that you seem to be saying you're more familiar with the Patristic tradition than were Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim. no offense, but i find that hard to believe. i say this because even before questioning the validity of the writings you found you were already labeling them as Protestant.
jckstraw, I don't think that you understood my last post. I know Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose said things about the End Times.
What I was talking about in my last post was that there are certain articles that have been posted on the internet that claim to be from Elder Paisios. In my last post I pointed out that those articles have no citations and nothing to support the idea that they come from Elder Paisios.
The articles I talked about claim to be written by Elder Paisios, and directly talk about 666 being some id card and also talk about a world-government, world-currency, etc...
However, I haven't found anything in those articles that supports the idea that they come from Elder Paisios.
As for Fr. Seraphim Rose, I know about what he says, and you can even go to YouTube and listen to a wonderful talk he gives about the End Times.
However, as I mentioned earlier, In my last post, I was addressing the fact that there are some articles on the internet that claim to be written by Fr. Seraphim Rose, but have no citations and no references, nothing that supports themselves and nothing that shows that they were actually written by him.
So my argument here is not that "I know Patristics and so-and-so isn't it". My argument is that so-and-so (in this case, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim) may not have actually written certain articles that have been posted on the internet and that claim to be by them.
When I talked in my original post about "Protestant Eschatology", I had not yet done an investigation into these writings that claim to be from Elder Paisios. Since I posted it, I have looked into it, and there is nothing that supports them being written by Elder Paisios.
But my original post still stands, because there are some people in the Orthodox Church that do hold eschatologies that are very Protestant. One example is recently in Greece when some Priests held a protest in Athens because they believe the "identification cards" here in Greece are the 666 mark of the beast... This is simply stupid and doesn't have any support from what I've read from Fr. Seraphim Rose, Elder Paisios, or even the Patristics.
I'm currently listening to Dr. Jeannie Constantinou's podcast, "Beyond the Veil", which takes a Patristic look at the Book of Revelation. You can also find a video on YouTube with Fr. Seraphim Rose's speech about the end times, there is also a recording of an Elder talking about the end times, and a video of the Newmartyr Fr. Daniil Syosev speaking (briefly) about the end times.
So far, none of them, nor their analysis have ever suggested that this "Protestantized Eschatology" is right. None have said that the mark of the beast will be an id card, debit card, or microchip or anything. None of them have even suggested some world-government or world-economy/currency is going to be part of the Anti-Christ's plan.
What I'm suggesting in this thread, is that there are certain Orthodox that seem to be holding to a very Protestantized Eschatology, and that Eschatology isn't supported by the Fathers, the Saints, Fr. Seraphim Rose, Elder Paisios, or anyone else.
