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Author Topic: God is not present in the Roman church the way He is in the Orthodox Church?  (Read 15557 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2011, 11:54:21 AM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

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Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

Let me start with something from my own experience. About a decade ago there was a Melkite parish near where I was living at the time, which I went to for a couple years (until moving away). After I had been going there for some months, and EO friend of mine began accompanying me. At a still later time, he began receiving communion.

To my mind, there are 2 significant differences between that and what J Michael described. For one thing, my friend was never RC, whereas J Michael told us that he joined the RCC, then left it but continued to receive communion in it. For another thing, my friend joined the EOC as a baby not as an adult.

Just for the record, I was baptized into the *Byzantine Catholic Church*, which I did mention above, not the RCC.  Not that it really matters, though.

The Church *is* the Bride of Christ, as you (I think it was you, anyway) wrote.  The Church consists of the Catholic Church in all of it's manifestations and the Orthodox Church in all of *it's* manifestations, both of which, to repeat myself, have continuous and unbroken apostolic succession.  I'm well aware that this is not a majority opinion or a popular opinion.  If this pains or upsets you or anyone else who would like to think they are somehow preserving the "purity" of your particular church, I am sorry.  But not, as you might guess, sorry enough to change my position for you or anyone else here.  This is a matter between me and my Creator.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll eventually find out about it.  As Mary indicated, and I thank her for putting it so well, I refuse to recognize and perpetuate the schism created by men.  It is to God that I owe my allegiance, not, as I've said before, Orthodoxy or Catholicism.  God knows my mind and my heart.  I pray daily that He will grant me to know and do His will.  I struggle continuously.  I repent of my sins regularly, and I hope sincerely.  God is and will be my Judge.

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.


So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.

I don't think it's alright to condemn *anyone* to some kind of eternal separation from God.

And, if you find my "preaching" tiresome or annoying, God gave you free will--don't read it or discuss it.  It won't hurt *my* feelings. Wink
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« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2011, 12:02:11 PM »


The Church *is* the Bride of Christ, as you (I think it was you, anyway) wrote.  The Church consists of the Catholic Church in all of it's manifestations and the Orthodox Church in all of *it's* manifestations, both of which, to repeat myself, have continuous and unbroken apostolic succession.  I'm well aware that this is not a majority opinion or a popular opinion.

It's not a matter of majority or minority positions.  It is a matter of fact that Orthodoxy does not speak OR act with one voice and praxis with regard to Apostolic Succession in the papal Church nor is there agreement on grace in sacraments.

So you have every reason to take the position that you take.  If it makes people uncomfortable...good!

People should be hideously discomfited by the reality that we are separated more by attitude and opinion than any kind of sacramental or ecclesial reality.

M.
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J Michael
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« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2011, 12:05:44 PM »


The Church *is* the Bride of Christ, as you (I think it was you, anyway) wrote.  The Church consists of the Catholic Church in all of it's manifestations and the Orthodox Church in all of *it's* manifestations, both of which, to repeat myself, have continuous and unbroken apostolic succession.  I'm well aware that this is not a majority opinion or a popular opinion.

It's not a matter of majority or minority positions.  It is a matter of fact that Orthodoxy does not speak OR act with one voice and praxis with regard to Apostolic Succession in the papal Church nor is there agreement on grace in sacraments.

So you have every reason to take the position that you take.  If it makes people uncomfortable...good!

People should be hideously discomfited by the reality that we are separated more by attitude and opinion than any kind of sacramental or ecclesial reality.

M.

THANK YOU!!  Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2011, 12:13:49 PM »

So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.

I don't think it's alright to condemn *anyone* to some kind of eternal separation from God.

Glad to hear it.

Now how does that fit in with your earlier post:

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.
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J Michael
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« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2011, 12:15:58 PM »

So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.

I don't think it's alright to condemn *anyone* to some kind of eternal separation from God.

Glad to hear it.

Now how does that fit in with your earlier post:

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.

 Huh
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« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2011, 12:22:04 PM »

So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.

I don't think it's alright to condemn *anyone* to some kind of eternal separation from God.

Glad to hear it.

Now how does that fit in with your earlier post:

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.

 Huh

There is a conflation of communion and salvation going on here.  You don't need to go down those bunny trails on this thread.  The original question concerns how God is present to Orthodox and Catholic.  It is perfectly legitimate to keep it at that bi-lateral level.  There are other venues for the other question.
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J Michael
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« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2011, 12:26:49 PM »

So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.

I don't think it's alright to condemn *anyone* to some kind of eternal separation from God.

Glad to hear it.

Now how does that fit in with your earlier post:

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.

 Huh

There is a conflation of communion and salvation going on here.  You don't need to go down those bunny trails on this thread.  The original question concerns how God is present to Orthodox and Catholic.  It is perfectly legitimate to keep it at that bi-lateral level.  There are other venues for the other question.

And THANK YOU, again!  Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2011, 02:28:56 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.

Again... the recent excommunication of Vassula Ryden shows that your thinking is not congenial to the East. 

I'm no expert on Vassula Ryden, but perhaps that should be "not congenial to Orthodox or Catholics" in view of:

Ironically, one of the main goals of her movement is bringing Orthodox Christians into unity with Rome, yet Pope Benedict won't have anything to do with Vassula.  He has consistently refused to endorse her and has issued statements criticizing her.

(See also my recent quote from C. S. Lewis.)

Neither hierarchs nor priests nor laity may commune from non-Orthodox altars, Catholic or Pre-Chalcedonian, Anglican or Utrecht.

If I may be so bold, your position seems a little extreme -- I notice that you include "Pre-Chalcedonian" (Oriental Orthodox) in your list.
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« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2011, 10:25:33 PM »

^Well, I certainly would say that "pre-Chalcedonian" is not a good term to use in this sentence.  Although I don't think Fr.A meant it that way, it does, by the use of this particular term, exclude every saint before Chalcedon, as of course they were all "pre-Chalcedonian."  I think we should stick to terms that don't do that.  The Orientals have no problem with non-Chalcedonian as a word of usage, so let's keep it that way so as not to confound and confuse, in my opinion.   
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« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2011, 10:50:09 PM »

I was thinking of commenting on that phrase. It's usage was odd, because, if anything, I find calling the OO Tradition "Pre-Chalcedonian" to actually be far more complementary than "Non-Chalcedonian", as it is an indication that the OO faith represents what was before Chalcedon.
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« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2011, 11:04:31 PM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries. Our Church is no vending machine for Sacraments. Ironically, if an Anglican, Lutheran or Methodist presented himself for communion in the RCC with the same view the RCs have toward Orthodoxy, they would be outraged.

I find this arrogant attitude unfortunate and symptomatic of why we can never be in communion with Rome until they do an about-face. To be fair, the pope or any of his bishops wouldn't present themselves for the Eucharist in one of our temples. Why would their laity feel so entitled to it?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2011, 11:12:43 PM »

^Well, I certainly would say that "pre-Chalcedonian" is not a good term to use in this sentence.  Although I don't think Fr.A meant it that way, it does, by the use of this particular term, exclude every saint before Chalcedon, as of course they were all "pre-Chalcedonian."  I think we should stick to terms that don't do that.  The Orientals have no problem with non-Chalcedonian as a word of usage, so let's keep it that way so as not to confound and confuse, in my opinion.   

The rules of the board prevent us from using traditonal Orthodox terminology, which is still the normal usage in Russian and Greek theological writings, and so we have had to find substitutes:  Pre-Chalcedonian, Non-Chalcedonian, Anti-Chalcedonian.

I myself don't like using Non-Chalcedonian since it is a little disdainful as if somehow they are lacking some essential theology.
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« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2011, 11:30:45 PM »

.
[/
Neither hierarchs nor priests nor laity may commune from non-Orthodox altars, Catholic or Pre-Chalcedonian, Anglican or Utrecht.

If I may be so bold, your position seems a little extreme --


Extreme?  I would accept your criticism, Peter, if you name me the Orthodox bishops and priests who commune at Catholic altars, or Non-Chalcedonian ones, Anglican or Utrecht.

I think my words are reflective of the truth of what does not happen.

Mary gives the impression that she is aware of large numbers of Orthodox laity receiving Catholic communion.   But we note that no Orthodox bishops and priests are doing that;  they are too wise to endanger their souls.  The laity Mary speaks about should look to their bishops and be as wise as them.
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« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2011, 09:52:17 AM »

.
[/
Neither hierarchs nor priests nor laity may commune from non-Orthodox altars, Catholic or Pre-Chalcedonian, Anglican or Utrecht.

If I may be so bold, your position seems a little extreme --


Extreme?  I would accept your criticism, Peter, if you name me the Orthodox bishops and priests who commune at Catholic altars, or Non-Chalcedonian ones, Anglican or Utrecht.

I think my words are reflective of the truth of what does not happen.

Mary gives the impression that she is aware of large numbers of Orthodox laity receiving Catholic communion.   But we note that no Orthodox bishops and priests are doing that;  they are too wise to endanger their souls.  The laity Mary speaks about should look to their bishops and be as wise as them.

Were bishops to challenge the schism by receiving communion in a Catholic liturgy, in a public display of communion, they would be strictly disciplined by their Orthodox hierarch.  I think we have seen that in action quite recently.  It certainly does make for a rather impressive disincentive, regardless of what one holds in one's heart.
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« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »

Neither hierarchs nor priests nor laity may commune from non-Orthodox altars, Catholic or Pre-Chalcedonian, Anglican or Utrecht.

If I may be so bold, your position seems a little extreme -- I notice that you include "Pre-Chalcedonian" (Oriental Orthodox) in your list.

Extreme?  I would accept your criticism, Peter, if you name me the Orthodox bishops and priests who commune at Catholic altars, or Non-Chalcedonian ones, Anglican or Utrecht.

I think my words are reflective of the truth of what does not happen.

Mary gives the impression that she is aware of large numbers of Orthodox laity receiving Catholic communion.   But we note that no Orthodox bishops and priests are doing that;  they are too wise to endanger their souls.  The laity Mary speaks about should look to their bishops and be as wise as them.

Regarding Pre-Chalcedonian, I would refer you to http://www.antiochian.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=657&Itemid=63

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« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2011, 10:50:34 AM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries. Our Church is no vending machine for Sacraments. Ironically, if an Anglican, Lutheran or Methodist presented himself for communion in the RCC with the same view the RCs have toward Orthodoxy, they would be outraged.

I find this arrogant attitude unfortunate and symptomatic of why we can never be in communion with Rome until they do an about-face. To be fair, the pope or any of his bishops wouldn't present themselves for the Eucharist in one of our temples. Why would their laity feel so entitled to it?

In Christ,
Andrew

It is axiomatic in the history of human kind that all of the greatest changes in human behavior that tends to struggle against an obvious truth if it is inconvenient, have been initiated by those willing to lay down their lives, their reputations, their earthly comfort, their ability to be a welcome part of a community in order to see that the truth is told and people's behaviors change in response to that truth.

We are about to witness to that truth in a very few hours now.

J Michael believes in something, and I think it is the truth, and he is willing to be excoriated here in order to make his point clear.  I am not going to stand by and let him do that alone.

Mary

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« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2011, 12:11:46 PM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries. Our Church is no vending machine for Sacraments. Ironically, if an Anglican, Lutheran or Methodist presented himself for communion in the RCC with the same view the RCs have toward Orthodoxy, they would be outraged.

I find this arrogant attitude unfortunate and symptomatic of why we can never be in communion with Rome until they do an about-face. To be fair, the pope or any of his bishops wouldn't present themselves for the Eucharist in one of our temples. Why would their laity feel so entitled to it?

In Christ,
Andrew

It is axiomatic in the history of human kind that all of the greatest changes in human behavior that tends to struggle against an obvious truth if it is inconvenient, have been initiated by those willing to lay down their lives, their reputations, their earthly comfort, their ability to be a welcome part of a community in order to see that the truth is told and people's behaviors change in response to that truth.

We are about to witness to that truth in a very few hours now.

J Michael believes in something, and I think it is the truth, and he is willing to be excoriated here in order to make his point clear.  I am not going to stand by and let him do that alone.

Mary


Is there something inherently flawed or absent from RC sacraments that people feel inclined to disrespect our Church's teaching? If you all believe you have true sacraments, receive them in your own churches. Don't profane ours.

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2011, 12:26:30 PM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries. Our Church is no vending machine for Sacraments. Ironically, if an Anglican, Lutheran or Methodist presented himself for communion in the RCC with the same view the RCs have toward Orthodoxy, they would be outraged.

I find this arrogant attitude unfortunate and symptomatic of why we can never be in communion with Rome until they do an about-face. To be fair, the pope or any of his bishops wouldn't present themselves for the Eucharist in one of our temples. Why would their laity feel so entitled to it?

In Christ,
Andrew

It is axiomatic in the history of human kind that all of the greatest changes in human behavior that tends to struggle against an obvious truth if it is inconvenient, have been initiated by those willing to lay down their lives, their reputations, their earthly comfort, their ability to be a welcome part of a community in order to see that the truth is told and people's behaviors change in response to that truth.

We are about to witness to that truth in a very few hours now.

J Michael believes in something, and I think it is the truth, and he is willing to be excoriated here in order to make his point clear.  I am not going to stand by and let him do that alone.

Mary


Is there something inherently flawed or absent from RC sacraments that people feel inclined to disrespect our Church's teaching? If you all believe you have true sacraments, receive them in your own churches. Don't profane ours.

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

In Christ,
Andrew

You quite ignore the fact that both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church have agreed on more than one occasion and in more than one way that we are closer than ANY other two Christian expressions of the faith.  The idea that the Catholic Church is the mother of all western heresies is not held by universal Orthodoxy through out our mutual history, equally so in all places and all times. 

There are several recent threads here on this Forum that talk about all kinds of exceptions to the idea that the Catholic Church has no Apostolic Succession or grace in sacraments.  It is very clear that all of Orthodoxy is not nearly so rigidly certain as you are as an individual.

So your words are water and I have a ducks back... Wink
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« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2011, 12:29:24 PM »

Is there something inherently flawed or absent from RC sacraments that people feel inclined to disrespect our Church's teaching? If you all believe you have true sacraments, receive them in your own churches. Don't profane ours.

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

In Christ,
Andrew
I feel no need to receive sacraments in an Eastern Orthodox Church. My Church's sacraments are quite sufficient.
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« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2011, 12:35:29 PM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries. Our Church is no vending machine for Sacraments. Ironically, if an Anglican, Lutheran or Methodist presented himself for communion in the RCC with the same view the RCs have toward Orthodoxy, they would be outraged.

I find this arrogant attitude unfortunate and symptomatic of why we can never be in communion with Rome until they do an about-face. To be fair, the pope or any of his bishops wouldn't present themselves for the Eucharist in one of our temples. Why would their laity feel so entitled to it?

In Christ,
Andrew

It is axiomatic in the history of human kind that all of the greatest changes in human behavior that tends to struggle against an obvious truth if it is inconvenient, have been initiated by those willing to lay down their lives, their reputations, their earthly comfort, their ability to be a welcome part of a community in order to see that the truth is told and people's behaviors change in response to that truth.

We are about to witness to that truth in a very few hours now.

J Michael believes in something, and I think it is the truth, and he is willing to be excoriated here in order to make his point clear.  I am not going to stand by and let him do that alone.

Mary


Is there something inherently flawed or absent from RC sacraments that people feel inclined to disrespect our Church's teaching? If you all believe you have true sacraments, receive them in your own churches. Don't profane ours.

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

In Christ,
Andrew

You quite ignore the fact that both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church have agreed on more than one occasion and in more than one way that we are closer than ANY other two Christian expressions of the faith.  The idea that the Catholic Church is the mother of all western heresies is not held by universal Orthodoxy through out our mutual history, equally so in all places and all times. 

There are several recent threads here on this Forum that talk about all kinds of exceptions to the idea that the Catholic Church has no Apostolic Succession or grace in sacraments.  It is very clear that all of Orthodoxy is not nearly so rigidly certain as you are as an individual.

So your words are water and I have a ducks back... Wink
*sigh* That's good that they agree on certain things, but just because I agree with my girlfriend on many issues, does not mean we can act as if we are married by having sex and cohabitating. If RCs feel they need to receive sacraments in an Orthodox temple, then perhaps, deusveritasest is correct in saying that God is not present in the Roman church as He is in Orthodoxy.

Again, I repeat: what is missing from your church's sacraments that you all feel the need to receive in ours? Would you be fine with Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Mormons, Hindus, et al. receiving communion at your mass? I've met people in those faiths who felt it was a sin for them NOT to receive. Why not let them? Don't be so rigid now! Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2011, 12:36:18 PM »

Is there something inherently flawed or absent from RC sacraments that people feel inclined to disrespect our Church's teaching? If you all believe you have true sacraments, receive them in your own churches. Don't profane ours.

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

In Christ,
Andrew

I feel no need to receive sacraments in an Eastern Orthodox Church. My Church's sacraments are quite sufficient.
I deeply respect your honesty on the subject! Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2011, 12:46:21 PM »



Again, I repeat: what is missing from your church's sacraments that you all feel the need to receive in ours? Would you be fine with Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Mormons, Hindus, et al. receiving communion at your mass? I've met people in those faiths who felt it was a sin for them NOT to receive. Why not let them? Don't be so rigid now! Wink

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear, in Christ, Andrew:

For starters you are confusing being in communion with "needing" to receive communion....eh?

And again there are the related issues of Apostolic Succession and grace in sacraments, and shared sacraments in terms of form and content, among other things that have been and are even now recognized by many Orthodox.  So your example of the Catholic Church restricting communion to all but the Orthodox is not a really good parallel.

M.
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« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2011, 01:33:53 PM »

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html
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« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2011, 01:38:33 PM »

Or this page about the same priest's particiapation at the parish:
http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/

Here is a caption from the page:

"Please Remember in your Prayers Fr. Robert Stanion, a very dear friend of our parish. Fr. Robert passed away March 23rd in Las Vegas.
 
While living in New York, Father was a frequent visitor and always welcome guest in our church. His sense of humor, enthusiasm and love of life and people will be  greatly missed by all those who knew him. Memory Eternal Fr. Robert!

Fr. Robert was affectionately titled our "Associate Pastor".
When in New York he frequently visited and prayed with us. We will always remember him. Click here to see some additional photos of Father Robert from years past."


I knew this Catholic priest personally, as a good friend. He was a holy and sainly man if ever I did meet one.
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« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2011, 01:40:37 PM »

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

He must have been a remarkable and holy man. Memory Eternal!

Father Yaroslav Sudik of Holy Trinity is a good priest and an old friend of ours.

BTW.. you added a space in the link...here it is corrected... http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/id22.html]http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html
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« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2011, 01:57:01 PM »


Guys...guys...Hard-Breaking News!!

They have BING-O in the house!!

 Lips Sealed

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

He must have been a remarkable and holy man. Memory Eternal!

Father Yaroslav Sudik of Holy Trinity is a good priest and an old friend of ours.

BTW.. you added a space in the link...here it is corrected... http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/id22.html]http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html
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« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2011, 03:02:13 PM »

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

He must have been a remarkable and holy man. Memory Eternal!

Father Yaroslav Sudik of Holy Trinity is a good priest and an old friend of ours.

BTW.. you added a space in the link...here it is corrected... http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/id22.html]http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html
Thanks for fixing that.
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« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2011, 03:04:56 PM »


Guys...guys...Hard-Breaking News!!

They have BING-O in the house!!

 Lips Sealed

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

He must have been a remarkable and holy man. Memory Eternal!

Father Yaroslav Sudik of Holy Trinity is a good priest and an old friend of ours.

BTW.. you added a space in the link...here it is corrected... http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/id22.html]http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

Yes, but it is Orthodox Bingo, no statues permitted during games....and they are authentic Rusnaks at that parish..... Wink
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« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2011, 03:22:00 PM »


Guys...guys...Hard-Breaking News!!

They have BING-O in the house!!

 Lips Sealed

I wonder what everyone makes of this Catholic priest at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in new york...

http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

He must have been a remarkable and holy man. Memory Eternal!

Father Yaroslav Sudik of Holy Trinity is a good priest and an old friend of ours.

BTW.. you added a space in the link...here it is corrected... http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/id22.html]http://www.holytrinityyonkers.o rg/id22.html

Yes, but it is Orthodox Bingo, no statues permitted during games....and they are authentic Rusnaks at that parish..... Wink

OH...well heck!!...that's OK then   angel
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« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2011, 03:25:24 PM »

Or this page about the same priest's particiapation at the parish:
http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/

Here is a caption from the page:

"Please Remember in your Prayers Fr. Robert Stanion, a very dear friend of our parish. Fr. Robert passed away March 23rd in Las Vegas.
 
While living in New York, Father was a frequent visitor and always welcome guest in our church. His sense of humor, enthusiasm and love of life and people will be  greatly missed by all those who knew him. Memory Eternal Fr. Robert!

Fr. Robert was affectionately titled our "Associate Pastor".
When in New York he frequently visited and prayed with us. We will always remember him. Click here to see some additional photos of Father Robert from years past."


I knew this Catholic priest personally, as a good friend. He was a holy and sainly man if ever I did meet one.

Memory eternal! I don't see why anyone would have issue with that. A RC priest comes to our church for services quite frequently, too. The only problem I would have would be if Fr. Robert presented himself to receive Sacraments without a real dire need (the article doesnt allude to it, so we can just assume he went for services). I tried to get that across in my posts on this thread, but perhaps my attempts were very inadequate. I apologize to anyone who was offended by remarks. I certainly meant no malice.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2011, 03:29:40 PM »

Or this page about the same priest's particiapation at the parish:
http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/

Here is a caption from the page:

"Please Remember in your Prayers Fr. Robert Stanion, a very dear friend of our parish. Fr. Robert passed away March 23rd in Las Vegas.
 
While living in New York, Father was a frequent visitor and always welcome guest in our church. His sense of humor, enthusiasm and love of life and people will be  greatly missed by all those who knew him. Memory Eternal Fr. Robert!

Fr. Robert was affectionately titled our "Associate Pastor".
When in New York he frequently visited and prayed with us. We will always remember him. Click here to see some additional photos of Father Robert from years past."


I knew this Catholic priest personally, as a good friend. He was a holy and sainly man if ever I did meet one.

Memory eternal! I don't see why anyone would have issue with that. A RC priest comes to our church for services quite frequently, too. The only problem I would have would be if Fr. Robert presented himself to receive Sacraments without a real dire need (the article doesnt allude to it, so we can just assume he went for services). I tried to get that across in my posts on this thread, but perhaps my attempts were very inadequate. I apologize to anyone who was offended by remarks. I certainly meant no malice.

In Christ,
Andrew

Nope!! Never think Malice when Andrew Speaks!!

Furthermore you raise a very interesting question:

How do you respond to the hypothetical situation where sacraments are requested of an Orthodox priest, by a Catholic,  in case of near-death emergency?

Also how would you react to the request for Orthodox sacraments based upon the condition of it being for the salvation of a soul?

M.
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« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2011, 03:32:16 PM »



Again, I repeat: what is missing from your church's sacraments that you all feel the need to receive in ours? Would you be fine with Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Mormons, Hindus, et al. receiving communion at your mass? I've met people in those faiths who felt it was a sin for them NOT to receive. Why not let them? Don't be so rigid now! Wink

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear, in Christ, Andrew:

For starters you are confusing being in communion with "needing" to receive communion....eh?

And again there are the related issues of Apostolic Succession and grace in sacraments, and shared sacraments in terms of form and content, among other things that have been and are even now recognized by many Orthodox.  So your example of the Catholic Church restricting communion to all but the Orthodox is not a really good parallel.

M.
Mary,

For clarification and this will be my last post on this thread: There are many Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists out there that believe they have Apostolic Succession and they will receive sacraments in RC churches. I have more respect for the ones who refrain out of respect for the RCCs policy, if you will, even if they disagree with it. Whether or not certain Orthodox recognize Rome has having valid sacraments is not the point. We do not have full unity yet, as much as I would like it and it is premature to be sharing Sacraments. I would say the same for EO-OO relations as well.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2011, 03:39:59 PM »

Or this page about the same priest's particiapation at the parish:
http://www.holytrinityyonkers.org/

Here is a caption from the page:

"Please Remember in your Prayers Fr. Robert Stanion, a very dear friend of our parish. Fr. Robert passed away March 23rd in Las Vegas.
 
While living in New York, Father was a frequent visitor and always welcome guest in our church. His sense of humor, enthusiasm and love of life and people will be  greatly missed by all those who knew him. Memory Eternal Fr. Robert!

Fr. Robert was affectionately titled our "Associate Pastor".
When in New York he frequently visited and prayed with us. We will always remember him. Click here to see some additional photos of Father Robert from years past."


I knew this Catholic priest personally, as a good friend. He was a holy and sainly man if ever I did meet one.

Memory eternal! I don't see why anyone would have issue with that. A RC priest comes to our church for services quite frequently, too. The only problem I would have would be if Fr. Robert presented himself to receive Sacraments without a real dire need (the article doesnt allude to it, so we can just assume he went for services). I tried to get that across in my posts on this thread, but perhaps my attempts were very inadequate. I apologize to anyone who was offended by remarks. I certainly meant no malice.

In Christ,
Andrew

Nope!! Never think Malice when Andrew Speaks!!

Furthermore you raise a very interesting question:

How do you respond to the hypothetical situation where sacraments are requested of an Orthodox priest, by a Catholic,  in case of near-death emergency?

Also how would you react to the request for Orthodox sacraments based upon the condition of it being for the salvation of a soul?

M.
Personally, if death was imminent, then it would be a pastoral decision and I would support an Orthodox priest or bishop dispensing the Mysteries to a dying RC. However, if someone was having spiritual issues and really felt the need to receive Sacraments from an Orthodox clergyman, then I would have to say it would be inappropriate for him to do so. I would have no problem with the priest counseling him and giving him good spiritual reading, telling him he is more than welcome to come to services and actively participate with the laity in the nave, but he would not be permitted to receive.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2011, 03:41:05 PM »



Again, I repeat: what is missing from your church's sacraments that you all feel the need to receive in ours? Would you be fine with Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Mormons, Hindus, et al. receiving communion at your mass? I've met people in those faiths who felt it was a sin for them NOT to receive. Why not let them? Don't be so rigid now! Wink

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear, in Christ, Andrew:

For starters you are confusing being in communion with "needing" to receive communion....eh?

And again there are the related issues of Apostolic Succession and grace in sacraments, and shared sacraments in terms of form and content, among other things that have been and are even now recognized by many Orthodox.  So your example of the Catholic Church restricting communion to all but the Orthodox is not a really good parallel.

M.
Mary,

Whether or not certain Orthodox recognize Rome has having valid sacraments is not the point. We do not have full unity yet, as much as I would like it and it is premature to be sharing Sacraments. I would say the same for EO-OO relations as well.

In Christ,
Andrew

This is precisely the point Andrew.  

There is NO equivocation in the Catholic position concerning the non-Catholic-non-Orthodox examples that you have offered.  

But there is CLEAR equivocation on the part of Orthodoxy over time concerning Apostolic Succession and Sacraments in the Catholic Church and it is on those grounds that I have to say that I understand what J Michael and others do when they receive communion either in an Orthodox Church or an eastern Catholic Church.  Those are the most common occurrences of de facto communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church so I will limit my comments to those two examples.  But it is precisely the Orthodox equivocation that allows it to happen...and I think rightly so.  Though I do not indulge that myself I certainly am not condemnatory of those who do.

M.
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« Reply #124 on: April 20, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »


Personally, if death was imminent, then it would be a pastoral decision and I would support an Orthodox priest or bishop dispensing the Mysteries to a dying RC. However, if someone was having spiritual issues and really felt the need to receive Sacraments from an Orthodox clergyman, then I would have to say it would be inappropriate for him to do so. I would have no problem with the priest counseling him and giving him good spiritual reading, telling him he is more than welcome to come to services and actively participate with the laity in the nave, but he would not be permitted to receive.

In Christ,
Andrew

What about those Orthodox bishops who have allowed an eastern Catholic to receive sacraments in an Orthodox parish currently and still remain Catholic, for the good of their soul?    Father Ambrose has corroborated that it does happen so I don't think I need do more than refer to it.
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« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2011, 03:44:03 PM »



Again, I repeat: what is missing from your church's sacraments that you all feel the need to receive in ours? Would you be fine with Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Mormons, Hindus, et al. receiving communion at your mass? I've met people in those faiths who felt it was a sin for them NOT to receive. Why not let them? Don't be so rigid now! Wink

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear, in Christ, Andrew:

For starters you are confusing being in communion with "needing" to receive communion....eh?

And again there are the related issues of Apostolic Succession and grace in sacraments, and shared sacraments in terms of form and content, among other things that have been and are even now recognized by many Orthodox.  So your example of the Catholic Church restricting communion to all but the Orthodox is not a really good parallel.

M.
Mary,

Whether or not certain Orthodox recognize Rome has having valid sacraments is not the point. We do not have full unity yet, as much as I would like it and it is premature to be sharing Sacraments. I would say the same for EO-OO relations as well.

In Christ,
Andrew

This is precisely the point Andrew.  

There is NO equivocation in the Catholic position concerning the non-Catholic-non-Orthodox examples that you have offered.  

But there is CLEAR equivocation on the part of Orthodoxy over time concerning Apostolic Succession and Sacraments in the Catholic Church and it is on those grounds that I have to say that I understand what J Michael and others do when they receive communion either in an Orthodox Church or an eastern Catholic Church.  Those are the most common occurrences of de facto communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church so I will limit my comments to those two examples.  But it is precisely the Orthodox equivocation that allows it to happen...and I think rightly so.  Though I do not indulge that myself I certainly am not condemnatory of those who do.

M.
I can understand where they are coming from, but I still find it wrong to do so.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2011, 03:47:42 PM »


I can understand where they are coming from, but I still find it wrong to do so.

In Christ,
Andrew


I do not hold that against you.  Again it is a different sort of path.  There is a need for people like you...and given your responses here, there is a great need for many more of those who hold your views for they will be the core of stability should communion ever be resumed between us.

M.
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« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2011, 03:51:19 PM »

Were bishops to challenge the schism by receiving communion in a Catholic liturgy, in a public display of communion, they would be strictly disciplined by their Orthodox hierarch.

Or resisted by their faithful.  police
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« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2011, 04:38:52 PM »

I have heard from several sources (including a priest) that in some parts of the world EOs, ECs, OOs and RC-OOs move pretty freely from one Church to the other. This is because in those areas the us-versus-them mentality is not between various Christian churches, but rather between Christians and Muslims. Sometimes it is physically safer to commune in the closest church.

I have very conflicted feelings about this, but I am not living their situation.
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« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2011, 04:44:00 PM »

This attitude is completely astounding and unbecoming. I can't help thinking of it as having the tone of a whiny 16 year old who is not allowed to take the keys to the car.

Ditto. I get those vibes all the time from Romanists complaining about how Orthodox approach them.
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« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2011, 04:51:45 PM »

You quite ignore the fact that both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church have agreed on more than one occasion and in more than one way that we are closer than ANY other two Christian expressions of the faith.

Mmmmm, I don't think so. To begin with, there is actually quite wide agreement that the Chalcedonian and Ephesine Non-Chalcedonian traditions are closer to each other than either is to any other tradition. For another, I think it's safe to say that many Orthodox would recognize the East Syrian church as closer to us than your church. Also, some Orthodox have historically recognized traditional Anglicans and Old Catholics as closer to us. Only after all these considerations is your statement really true.

The idea that the Catholic Church is the mother of all western heresies is not held by universal Orthodoxy through out our mutual history, equally so in all places and all times.

These are not mutually exclusive realities. One can recognize the closeness of Orthodoxy and Romanism while also recognizing that Rome is the mother of Western heresies in general.
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« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2011, 04:57:50 PM »

then perhaps, deusveritasest is correct in saying that God is not present in the Roman church as He is in Orthodoxy.

Perhaps? Why do you need to wonder at all? Do you actually think the Roman church has the very Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit received in Orthodox Chrismation?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2011, 05:03:42 PM »

then perhaps, deusveritasest is correct in saying that God is not present in the Roman church as He is in Orthodoxy.

Perhaps? Why do you need to wonder at all? Do you actually think the Roman church has the very Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit received in Orthodox Chrismation?

Indeed.  And more than that I know there are Orthodox believers from the greatest lay man or women to the lowliest bishop who think the same thing...praise God!!

 Smiley
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »

How do you respond to the hypothetical situation where sacraments are requested of an Orthodox priest, by a Catholic,  in case of near-death emergency?

If they are willing to accept that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, then they should be Baptized or Chrismated and then Communed.

Also how would you react to the request for Orthodox sacraments based upon the condition of it being for the salvation of a soul?

Same as above, except that the initiation would probably not happen immediately but only after a period of discernment, and with the added condition that they swear to not return to participation in the ordinances of other communions.
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Peter J
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« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2011, 05:16:14 PM »

The disrespectful attitude from RCs such as Mary and J Michael toward Holy Orthodoxy show me that I don't want to share from the Chalice with people who will have such a disregard for our Mysteries.

For the record, J Michael isn't Catholic. According to his own statements, he left the Catholic Church to join to Orthodox Church (but still receives communion in the Catholic Church).
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