OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 21, 2014, 10:35:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: God is not present in the Roman church the way He is in the Orthodox Church?  (Read 15881 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2011, 05:41:19 PM »

Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!)

And I've read today that "[a]fter 20,000 complaints [a] Jesuit university [is] still promoting Planned Parenthood," an association of abortion clinics, so I have to agree with Noesisaa that the moral crisis is everywhere, unfortunately.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 05:42:38 PM by Michał » Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2011, 05:42:43 PM »

Ignatius: there are problems EVERYWHERE, including the Orthodox Church. Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!) So therefore, in her words, she had a priest's blessing. This enrages me...There are priests with girlfriends/mistresses, there are priests who steal, priests who smuggle cigarettes over the border and try to bribe the policemen, priests who allow their daughter to cohabit with only a civil marriage...Artificial contraception is okay. Ascesis....hahahhaha!

What I mean is that liturgical orthodoxy does not necessarily moral orthodoxy. I can bet that that priest who told that poor woman that she can have an abortion is liturgically correct. But how mistaken he really is.

Grace and Peace,

I understand but the Orthodox Parish that I attend and the Parish Priest is simply a wonderful light for me and my family. My journey East has for a while been one found in theology and cultural debate on this forum but I've found greater fruit in the literal encounter and day to day experience of the faith among the faithful. I know there are problems even within my own heart.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2011, 05:47:30 PM »

Ignatius: there are problems EVERYWHERE, including the Orthodox Church. Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!) So therefore, in her words, she had a priest's blessing. This enrages me...There are priests with girlfriends/mistresses, there are priests who steal, priests who smuggle cigarettes over the border and try to bribe the policemen, priests who allow their daughter to cohabit with only a civil marriage...Artificial contraception is okay. Ascesis....hahahhaha!

What I mean is that liturgical orthodoxy does not necessarily moral orthodoxy. I can bet that that priest who told that poor woman that she can have an abortion is liturgically correct. But how mistaken he really is.

Grace and Peace,

I understand but the Orthodox Parish that I attend and the Parish Priest is simply a wonderful light for me and my family. My journey East has for a while been one found in theology and cultural debate on this forum but I've found greater fruit in the literal encounter and day to day experience of the faith among the faithful. I know there are problems even within my own heart.

How long have you been struggling spiritually...internally?
Logged

Noesisaa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2011, 05:50:27 PM »

Ignatius: there are problems EVERYWHERE, including the Orthodox Church. Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!) So therefore, in her words, she had a priest's blessing. This enrages me...There are priests with girlfriends/mistresses, there are priests who steal, priests who smuggle cigarettes over the border and try to bribe the policemen, priests who allow their daughter to cohabit with only a civil marriage...Artificial contraception is okay. Ascesis....hahahhaha!

What I mean is that liturgical orthodoxy does not necessarily moral orthodoxy. I can bet that that priest who told that poor woman that she can have an abortion is liturgically correct. But how mistaken he really is.

Grace and Peace,

I understand but the Orthodox Parish that I attend and the Parish Priest is simply a wonderful light for me and my family. My journey East has for a while been one found in theology and cultural debate on this forum but I've found greater fruit in the literal encounter and day to day experience of the faith among the faithful. I know there are problems even within my own heart.

Yes, you are right. I don't want to play the devil's advocate: but what if you'd find a nice, orthodox, good, roman-catholic parish?
Logged
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2011, 05:59:15 PM »

Relax.  I am not judging you.  But I will ping the notes where you appear to paint the entire Catholic Church with the brush of your own, admittedly limited, experiences.

What does disturbs me is that the Roman Catholic Church attempts to suggest that the Clergy are in communion and of one mind. I honestly don't see that at all. The Parishes that I've attended over the years are very politically ideological and mirror popular secular society. I ask, where is the salt and light? Most have only a thin veneer of the old church traditions present anymore "what smells and bells"? This is what I mean when I speak of the Catholic Church being dead, lost or gone. With their outward orthopracy went their inward orthodoxy. I am sure there are a few hold outs... just none around me. I ask you, how long can they stand? Until their Priest is eventually retired? I don't see enough tradition present in the modern Catholic Liturgy to mold hearts and minds. I don't seen any ascesis present in the clergy to form them into holy examples.

I've asked this of Catholics before, why where the sacred Relics thrown out with the Alters... after Vatican II? Why the radical change is orthopracy? To me, this was similar to the Iconoclasm in the Eastern Church but it was brought about from within... What Church that Claims continuity with the Apostles so quickly throws out their Traditions and Liturgy for another? I've struggled very long to understand that and Priests just look at me dumbfounded. Do you have an answer?

Ignatius, I'd like to respond on two points.

First, I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the state of modern Catholic liturgy.  I am flummoxed by what happened to the liturgy after Vatican II.  It was not a reform of the rite; it was a revolution.  I do not understand how such a revolution was possible.  The rot must have been deep.  I think your reference to the iconoclastic crisis is apt.  A liberal Protestant-inspired iconoclasm swept through the Catholic Church, and it still has its grip on the Catholic mind and spirit.  Despite all talk about the reform of the reform, I do not expect significant changes in my lifetime or the lifetime of my children.  The institution is too deeply invested in the liturgical status quo.  Few parish priests are willing, or able, to challenge this status quo.  Liturgy is not a ditch most are willing to die in.  

Second, I think you are being excessively and unfairly hard on Catholic priests.  The ones I know are faithful, overworked men who are simply overwhelmed by the work that needs to be done in the typical Catholic parish.  Their fidelity is their ascesis.  A single priest is often expected to pastor, all by himself, a congregation of three thousand families.  This is impossible!  And matters are only going to get worse, unless God intervenes.  After all the Masses are said, after all the dead are buried and the infants are baptized, after the administration is done, there simply is no time nor energy left to devote to spiritual renewal, either for oneself or for the parish.  It is all impossible.  

I agree that contemporary Catholicism, particularly at the parish level, has lost the ascetical rhythm of the Church.  This is a huge loss!  But it is wrong to assume that Orthodoxy is producing holier Christians.  Just talk to your local Greek priest.  Both traditions are profoundly compromised.  Both are vulnerable to the acid rain of modernity.  Kyrie eleison.

In the end, we must find shelter and hope to survive.  Ecclesiastical ideology will not save us.    
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,126


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2011, 06:29:28 PM »

I hope that now you will be able, if you so desire, to respond to the substance of my post rather than to something extraneous.

And I wish you a Blessed and truly holy Holy Week, and a Glorious Pascha!!

In Christ,
JM

I suppose I too expected a bit more gravitas with this particular message but I don't think you are trolling.  Your position, which I agree with BTW,  is so out of the ordinary, however, that to shuck 'n jive it looks strange to me.  Perhaps I take it too soberly...I do have that fault in general, I think.

Would you indulge my curiosity and tell us why you went from the Roman Church to Orthodoxy?

Also are you familiar with the writing of Father Lev Gillet?

Mary

Mary,

No, I wasn't trolling.  I tend to be somewhat of a smartass sometimes, and tend to make light when it may not be the most appropriate thing to do.  Shuck and jive  Cheesy?  Okay.....mea culpa  Smiley.   And yes, I am kind of strange.  

There were, in fact, many reasons why we (my wife and I) converted to Orthodoxy, and I won't go into all of them here and now.  What I will say is that while we were in the Byzantine Catholic church, our deacon there would frequently refer to Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodoxy lite".  Well, I tend to like my beer dark, my whiskey straight, and my Christianity full.  So, we searched and read, and read more, and prayed, and asked God to lead us where He wanted us to be.  It so happened that there is an Orthodox church less than 1/2 way between where we live and the B.C. church we were attending, which, given my wife's deteriorating state of health, was quite a hike for us.  So, we started attending there.  And there was a kind of fullness and completeness that was somehow lacking at the B.C. church.  Also, the community there was more alive and vibrant.

We continued to pray and study.  We liked what we experienced, for the most part, so eventually we asked to be and were received by way of Holy Chrismation.

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

To be perfectly honest with you, if there were a Byzantine Catholic parish as close to us as the Orthodox one or closer, we'd probably alternate going to both.  I know that doesn't sit well with many so-called "purists", and not a few Orthodox priests, but too bad.  

By the way, by marriage I have many, many relatives in Western PA., who have for many years gone back and forth to Orthodox, R.C., and B.C. churches.  They are known by the priests and bishops of all three and regularly and freely receive sacraments, including Holy Communion from all of them.  Of the purists here I would ask, what of them?  And by "them" I mean both my relatives and the clergy.

I know I haven't answered your question completely, but I hope I've answered it enough to give you a sense of where I'm coming from.

I am familiar with Fr. Lev Gillet.  It's been a few years since I've read anything by him.  Was there anything in particular you were thinking of?

As for Andrew's comment about "sleeping around".....well, I could get back into smartass mode, but I won't, so.....no comment. Grin
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 06:43:11 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2011, 07:15:28 PM »

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

You sound very much like Jerzy Nowosielski, the recently deceased painter, iconographer and, some would say, Orthodox theologian from Poland.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 07:15:52 PM by Michał » Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2011, 07:29:35 PM »

Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!)

I'm sure it's not a coincidence that she went precisely to that priest with a pro-choice (i.e., pro-death) mentality and not to some strict holy elder from a monastery.
Logged
Noesisaa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2011, 08:18:15 PM »

Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!)

I'm sure it's not a coincidence that she went precisely to that priest with a pro-choice (i.e., pro-death) mentality and not to some strict holy elder from a monastery.

She probably went to the priest of the church nearest to her house. Sad I doubt that she went around churches in Bucharest looking specifically for a pro-choice priest.

Most probably the priest didn't have the guts to tell her the truth and tell her to carry her cross.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2011, 08:26:22 PM »

Most probably the priest didn't have the guts to tell her the truth and tell her to carry her cross.

I hope someone with the guts will step in and exercise a sufficient canonical punishment both for the woman and the priest -- for their own good.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2011, 08:50:16 PM »

Most probably the priest didn't have the guts to tell her the truth and tell her to carry her cross.

I hope someone with the guts will step in and exercise a sufficient canonical punishment both for the woman and the priest -- for their own good.

That's pretty darn juridical for a faith that is said to be the faith of the spiritual hospital.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2011, 09:00:14 PM »

Most probably the priest didn't have the guts to tell her the truth and tell her to carry her cross.

I hope someone with the guts will step in and exercise a sufficient canonical punishment both for the woman and the priest -- for their own good.

That's pretty darn juridical for a faith that is said to be the faith of the spiritual hospital.

When a surgeon malpractises some form of rebuke and correction is usually beneficial to prevent him harming the health of other patients.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2011, 09:11:46 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I understand but the Orthodox Parish that I attend and the Parish Priest is simply a wonderful light for me and my family. My journey East has for a while been one found in theology and cultural debate on this forum but I've found greater fruit in the literal encounter and day to day experience of the faith among the faithful. I know there are problems even within my own heart.

Yes, you are right. I don't want to play the devil's advocate: but what if you'd find a nice, orthodox, good, roman-catholic parish?

That's just what I was thinking.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2011, 09:17:35 PM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2011, 09:18:22 PM »


Mary,

No, I wasn't trolling.  I tend to be somewhat of a smartass sometimes, and tend to make light when it may not be the most appropriate thing to do.  Shuck and jive  Cheesy?  Okay.....mea culpa  Smiley.   And yes, I am kind of strange.  

There were, in fact, many reasons why we (my wife and I) converted to Orthodoxy, and I won't go into all of them here and now.  What I will say is that while we were in the Byzantine Catholic church, our deacon there would frequently refer to Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodoxy lite".  Well, I tend to like my beer dark, my whiskey straight, and my Christianity full.  So, we searched and read, and read more, and prayed, and asked God to lead us where He wanted us to be.  It so happened that there is an Orthodox church less than 1/2 way between where we live and the B.C. church we were attending, which, given my wife's deteriorating state of health, was quite a hike for us.  So, we started attending there.  And there was a kind of fullness and completeness that was somehow lacking at the B.C. church.  Also, the community there was more alive and vibrant.

We continued to pray and study.  We liked what we experienced, for the most part, so eventually we asked to be and were received by way of Holy Chrismation.

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

To be perfectly honest with you, if there were a Byzantine Catholic parish as close to us as the Orthodox one or closer, we'd probably alternate going to both.  I know that doesn't sit well with many so-called "purists", and not a few Orthodox priests, but too bad.  

By the way, by marriage I have many, many relatives in Western PA., who have for many years gone back and forth to Orthodox, R.C., and B.C. churches.  They are known by the priests and bishops of all three and regularly and freely receive sacraments, including Holy Communion from all of them.  Of the purists here I would ask, what of them?  And by "them" I mean both my relatives and the clergy.

I know I haven't answered your question completely, but I hope I've answered it enough to give you a sense of where I'm coming from.

I am familiar with Fr. Lev Gillet.  It's been a few years since I've read anything by him.  Was there anything in particular you were thinking of?

As for Andrew's comment about "sleeping around".....well, I could get back into smartass mode, but I won't, so.....no comment. Grin

Don't be sorry...I didn't really mind your humor.  It is an attitude that is pretty difficult for most Orthodox, or Catholics to grasp.  To simply ignore the schism is about as daring as it gets in some circles  laugh  But there are many who have done just that in their own quiet ways...they may not be quite so active as you are but they refuse to recognize or acknowledge anything but the fact that we are not in communion.  But to say that we are two different bodies...no...they refuse that idea absolutely.

I can understand your choice quite well, in fact.  I would never be so daring as you are however, so I stay home and don't stray, though I've often wanted to do precisely what you are doing.  It would stop me from doing what I do in venues like this however, and it would not be an example that I would choose to give those who count on me to be who and what I am, and there are enough of those to make it important that I demonstrate a certain kind of stability.

But we are different souls on different paths.  I feel the pull of different responsibilities, just as deeply as I feel the pull of parish life in Orthodoxy.  But I am not quite so dependent upon a parish or a parish priest to help me keep my spiritual life in order.  I am by nature and practice a solitary and contemplative person...not reclusive...but certainly solitary...and I've been blessed by the company of the same spiritual father for nearly fifteen years now.  That makes all the difference in the world in what I can absorb and what becomes too much to bear.

At any rate...I was just curious whether or not you were familiar with Father Lev...didn't have any particular one of his works in mind.

Pleased to meet you.

Mary

Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2011, 09:14:23 AM »


Mary,

No, I wasn't trolling.  I tend to be somewhat of a smartass sometimes, and tend to make light when it may not be the most appropriate thing to do.  Shuck and jive  Cheesy?  Okay.....mea culpa  Smiley.   And yes, I am kind of strange.  

There were, in fact, many reasons why we (my wife and I) converted to Orthodoxy, and I won't go into all of them here and now.  What I will say is that while we were in the Byzantine Catholic church, our deacon there would frequently refer to Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodoxy lite".  Well, I tend to like my beer dark, my whiskey straight, and my Christianity full.  So, we searched and read, and read more, and prayed, and asked God to lead us where He wanted us to be.  It so happened that there is an Orthodox church less than 1/2 way between where we live and the B.C. church we were attending, which, given my wife's deteriorating state of health, was quite a hike for us.  So, we started attending there.  And there was a kind of fullness and completeness that was somehow lacking at the B.C. church.  Also, the community there was more alive and vibrant.

We continued to pray and study.  We liked what we experienced, for the most part, so eventually we asked to be and were received by way of Holy Chrismation.

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

To be perfectly honest with you, if there were a Byzantine Catholic parish as close to us as the Orthodox one or closer, we'd probably alternate going to both.  I know that doesn't sit well with many so-called "purists", and not a few Orthodox priests, but too bad.  

By the way, by marriage I have many, many relatives in Western PA., who have for many years gone back and forth to Orthodox, R.C., and B.C. churches.  They are known by the priests and bishops of all three and regularly and freely receive sacraments, including Holy Communion from all of them.  Of the purists here I would ask, what of them?  And by "them" I mean both my relatives and the clergy.

I know I haven't answered your question completely, but I hope I've answered it enough to give you a sense of where I'm coming from.

I am familiar with Fr. Lev Gillet.  It's been a few years since I've read anything by him.  Was there anything in particular you were thinking of?

As for Andrew's comment about "sleeping around".....well, I could get back into smartass mode, but I won't, so.....no comment. Grin

Don't be sorry...I didn't really mind your humor.  It is an attitude that is pretty difficult for most Orthodox, or Catholics to grasp.  To simply ignore the schism is about as daring as it gets in some circles  laugh  But there are many who have done just that in their own quiet ways...they may not be quite so active as you are but they refuse to recognize or acknowledge anything but the fact that we are not in communion.  But to say that we are two different bodies...no...they refuse that idea absolutely.

I can understand your choice quite well, in fact.  I would never be so daring as you are however, so I stay home and don't stray, though I've often wanted to do precisely what you are doing.  It would stop me from doing what I do in venues like this however, and it would not be an example that I would choose to give those who count on me to be who and what I am, and there are enough of those to make it important that I demonstrate a certain kind of stability.

But we are different souls on different paths.  I feel the pull of different responsibilities, just as deeply as I feel the pull of parish life in Orthodoxy.  But I am not quite so dependent upon a parish or a parish priest to help me keep my spiritual life in order.  I am by nature and practice a solitary and contemplative person...not reclusive...but certainly solitary...and I've been blessed by the company of the same spiritual father for nearly fifteen years now.  That makes all the difference in the world in what I can absorb and what becomes too much to bear.

At any rate...I was just curious whether or not you were familiar with Father Lev...didn't have any particular one of his works in mind.

Pleased to meet you.

Mary

Dear elijahmaria and J Michael,

You might say that you're only jesting or only being a smartass, but may I be so bold as to suggest that you read the following quote from C. S. Lewis, and see if you don't fit the description:

Quote
Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any
 communion.* This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the centre of each 
there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with
 the same voice.

(*I would assume he meant women as well as men.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2011, 10:07:44 AM »

Personally I've never thought much of C. S. Lewis's writing.  There's so much excellent work done by Catholic and Orthodox saints.  Lewis is "accessible" I suppose but that has never been my first criteria for superior spiritual writing.

Besides Jesus and the Apostles worked on the fringes and that becomes ever so apparent this week, just how far out on the edge they were.
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,412


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2011, 10:25:02 AM »

Most probably the priest didn't have the guts to tell her the truth and tell her to carry her cross.

I hope someone with the guts will step in and exercise a sufficient canonical punishment both for the woman and the priest -- for their own good.

That's pretty darn juridical for a faith that is said to be the faith of the spiritual hospital.

When a surgeon malpractises some form of rebuke and correction is usually beneficial to prevent him harming the health of other patients.

This is true, but...in my experience as an attorney, it has been my observation that within any profession one will find an acknowledgment that malpractice or error occurs with some regularity, but when confronted with that reality, the profession will close ranks and protect the guilty and cover up the misdeeds. The Church, unfortunately, is no exception as the Roman Catholic faithful have sadly learned these past years. The Orthodox are no less likely to behave in the same manner if pressed.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,126


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2011, 11:15:13 AM »


Mary,

No, I wasn't trolling.  I tend to be somewhat of a smartass sometimes, and tend to make light when it may not be the most appropriate thing to do.  Shuck and jive  Cheesy?  Okay.....mea culpa  Smiley.   And yes, I am kind of strange.  

There were, in fact, many reasons why we (my wife and I) converted to Orthodoxy, and I won't go into all of them here and now.  What I will say is that while we were in the Byzantine Catholic church, our deacon there would frequently refer to Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodoxy lite".  Well, I tend to like my beer dark, my whiskey straight, and my Christianity full.  So, we searched and read, and read more, and prayed, and asked God to lead us where He wanted us to be.  It so happened that there is an Orthodox church less than 1/2 way between where we live and the B.C. church we were attending, which, given my wife's deteriorating state of health, was quite a hike for us.  So, we started attending there.  And there was a kind of fullness and completeness that was somehow lacking at the B.C. church.  Also, the community there was more alive and vibrant.

We continued to pray and study.  We liked what we experienced, for the most part, so eventually we asked to be and were received by way of Holy Chrismation.

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

To be perfectly honest with you, if there were a Byzantine Catholic parish as close to us as the Orthodox one or closer, we'd probably alternate going to both.  I know that doesn't sit well with many so-called "purists", and not a few Orthodox priests, but too bad.  

By the way, by marriage I have many, many relatives in Western PA., who have for many years gone back and forth to Orthodox, R.C., and B.C. churches.  They are known by the priests and bishops of all three and regularly and freely receive sacraments, including Holy Communion from all of them.  Of the purists here I would ask, what of them?  And by "them" I mean both my relatives and the clergy.

I know I haven't answered your question completely, but I hope I've answered it enough to give you a sense of where I'm coming from.

I am familiar with Fr. Lev Gillet.  It's been a few years since I've read anything by him.  Was there anything in particular you were thinking of?

As for Andrew's comment about "sleeping around".....well, I could get back into smartass mode, but I won't, so.....no comment. Grin

Don't be sorry...I didn't really mind your humor.  It is an attitude that is pretty difficult for most Orthodox, or Catholics to grasp.  To simply ignore the schism is about as daring as it gets in some circles  laugh  But there are many who have done just that in their own quiet ways...they may not be quite so active as you are but they refuse to recognize or acknowledge anything but the fact that we are not in communion.  But to say that we are two different bodies...no...they refuse that idea absolutely.

I can understand your choice quite well, in fact.  I would never be so daring as you are however, so I stay home and don't stray, though I've often wanted to do precisely what you are doing.  It would stop me from doing what I do in venues like this however, and it would not be an example that I would choose to give those who count on me to be who and what I am, and there are enough of those to make it important that I demonstrate a certain kind of stability.

But we are different souls on different paths.  I feel the pull of different responsibilities, just as deeply as I feel the pull of parish life in Orthodoxy.  But I am not quite so dependent upon a parish or a parish priest to help me keep my spiritual life in order.  I am by nature and practice a solitary and contemplative person...not reclusive...but certainly solitary...and I've been blessed by the company of the same spiritual father for nearly fifteen years now.  That makes all the difference in the world in what I can absorb and what becomes too much to bear.

At any rate...I was just curious whether or not you were familiar with Father Lev...didn't have any particular one of his works in mind.

Pleased to meet you.

Mary

Dear elijahmaria and J Michael,

You might say that you're only jesting or only being a smartass, but may I be so bold as to suggest that you read the following quote from C. S. Lewis, and see if you don't fit the description:

Quote
Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any
 communion.* This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the centre of each 
there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with
 the same voice.

(*I would assume he meant women as well as men.)

I bear no "hostility" towards either "communion".  I love them both very much, as a matter of fact, and consider them, rightly or wrongly, equally valid.  My loyalty is to Jesus Christ, not a particular "communion".  So, no, I don't think I fit the description, unless of course in my hurry I mis-read and/or misunderstood it.  I may be "borderline" as Orthodox or Catholic or both, but *not* as a Christian.

I would also concur with Mary's assessment of Lewis.  Some of his fiction, however, is breath taking.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,126


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2011, 11:34:49 AM »


Mary,

No, I wasn't trolling.  I tend to be somewhat of a smartass sometimes, and tend to make light when it may not be the most appropriate thing to do.  Shuck and jive  Cheesy?  Okay.....mea culpa  Smiley.   And yes, I am kind of strange.  

There were, in fact, many reasons why we (my wife and I) converted to Orthodoxy, and I won't go into all of them here and now.  What I will say is that while we were in the Byzantine Catholic church, our deacon there would frequently refer to Byzantine Catholicism as "Orthodoxy lite".  Well, I tend to like my beer dark, my whiskey straight, and my Christianity full.  So, we searched and read, and read more, and prayed, and asked God to lead us where He wanted us to be.  It so happened that there is an Orthodox church less than 1/2 way between where we live and the B.C. church we were attending, which, given my wife's deteriorating state of health, was quite a hike for us.  So, we started attending there.  And there was a kind of fullness and completeness that was somehow lacking at the B.C. church.  Also, the community there was more alive and vibrant.

We continued to pray and study.  We liked what we experienced, for the most part, so eventually we asked to be and were received by way of Holy Chrismation.

Why did we then, from time to time, go back to the Catholic church for sacraments?  I think I explained that in my original post.  It was a matter of geography, health, convenience, and the fact that for all the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy they really are one and the same faith.  I know many would and do disagree with me, but that always makes me return to the statements and questions of my original post, which, so far, no one seems to have addressed to my satisfaction.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That Church finds expression in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.  I remember Fr. Tom Hopko in one of his lectures saying something to the effect of Christianity being *not* a "religion" but rather a relationship with a Person, and that Person is Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Now *that* is what I had longed for for many years and finally found in *both* Catholicism and Orthodoxy, all aspects of the religiosity thereof aside.  Many of the differences between them are political.  Many are cultural.  Some are theological.  As far as I have been able to determine, both have direct and unbroken apostolic succession and that, I believe, validates the sacraments of both.  I may be condemned to eternal damnation, but I seriously doubt that it will be because I go to a Catholic priest for confession and absolution, and receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest, or vice versa.  It is my relationship, or lack thereof, with Jesus Christ that matters, not whether the church I attend begins with an "O" or a "C".  This is my choice.  So, one might say that I am Orthodox in communion with the Catholic Church.

To be perfectly honest with you, if there were a Byzantine Catholic parish as close to us as the Orthodox one or closer, we'd probably alternate going to both.  I know that doesn't sit well with many so-called "purists", and not a few Orthodox priests, but too bad.  

By the way, by marriage I have many, many relatives in Western PA., who have for many years gone back and forth to Orthodox, R.C., and B.C. churches.  They are known by the priests and bishops of all three and regularly and freely receive sacraments, including Holy Communion from all of them.  Of the purists here I would ask, what of them?  And by "them" I mean both my relatives and the clergy.

I know I haven't answered your question completely, but I hope I've answered it enough to give you a sense of where I'm coming from.

I am familiar with Fr. Lev Gillet.  It's been a few years since I've read anything by him.  Was there anything in particular you were thinking of?

As for Andrew's comment about "sleeping around".....well, I could get back into smartass mode, but I won't, so.....no comment. Grin

Don't be sorry...I didn't really mind your humor.  It is an attitude that is pretty difficult for most Orthodox, or Catholics to grasp.  To simply ignore the schism is about as daring as it gets in some circles  laugh  But there are many who have done just that in their own quiet ways...they may not be quite so active as you are but they refuse to recognize or acknowledge anything but the fact that we are not in communion.  But to say that we are two different bodies...no...they refuse that idea absolutely.

I can understand your choice quite well, in fact.  I would never be so daring as you are however, so I stay home and don't stray, though I've often wanted to do precisely what you are doing.  It would stop me from doing what I do in venues like this however, and it would not be an example that I would choose to give those who count on me to be who and what I am, and there are enough of those to make it important that I demonstrate a certain kind of stability.

But we are different souls on different paths.  I feel the pull of different responsibilities, just as deeply as I feel the pull of parish life in Orthodoxy.  But I am not quite so dependent upon a parish or a parish priest to help me keep my spiritual life in order.  I am by nature and practice a solitary and contemplative person...not reclusive...but certainly solitary...and I've been blessed by the company of the same spiritual father for nearly fifteen years now.  That makes all the difference in the world in what I can absorb and what becomes too much to bear.

At any rate...I was just curious whether or not you were familiar with Father Lev...didn't have any particular one of his works in mind.

Pleased to meet you.

Mary



Pleased to meet you, too!

Thanks for your thoughts!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
countertenor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2011, 12:38:51 PM »

Here is my take on this, fwiw.  Please bear in mind that I am no theologian, no priest, no nuttin'.  Just a poor working schmuck with a bunch of years under his belt, a bunch of reading that's been done, and a little bit of experience.  Heck, I don't even have a college degree!  Shocked

Anyway....I am a Jew.  As such, I converted to Christianity a number of years ago.  I was baptized into the wonderful Holy Byzantine Catholic Church.  At the same time I was also chrismated, and received Holy Communion.  Sometime later my wife (baptized Byz.Cath, raised RC) and I were received into Orthodoxy (OCA) via chrismation.  Now, I know this may cause some here to become apoplectic Grin, but since our chrismation we have have mainly worshipped and communed in the O.C., but there have been times when (shock, horror, gasp!!!!) we have received communion in the Catholic Church, confessed to and been absolved by Catholic priests.  (Wow---now he's goin' straight to hell in a hand basket!  Roll Eyes)

Why do I say all this?  Because I believe in ONE God, in ONE Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..., in ONE baptism..., etc.  And I believe that that ONE Church is manifested (if that's the right word) in both Orthodoxy AND Catholicism.  And I believe that that makes the apostolicity of both, the validity of the sacraments of both EQUAL.  God is really present in the Eucharist of both.  How could He NOT be?  Can anyone *prove* beyond any reasonable doubt that He is not?  I know, I know....someone out there's going to start throwing theology at me after recovering their eyebrows from the ceiling, but it all boils down to this, as I've asked elsewhere on this forum.....when we come before God at the Final Judgment, will He ask if we were Catholic (yes, and if so, which type?), Orthodox (yes, and if so, which jurisdiction?), Baptist, or Jew, or whatever??  Well....will He?  Or will He ask if we have loved Him, if we have loved our neighbor and our enemy;  if we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc.?  Will He ask if we choose Him or if we choose the other?  I mean, really.....come on folks....I know it's fun and interesting and edifying to argue, discuss, and debate these matters, but are they that which is **really** essential to us as God's children, who, hopefully, love Him above all else?

(Now I'm gonna duck  Grin Wink)

 Smiley
Logged
countertenor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2011, 12:41:20 PM »

I do cross myself going by a church under the Vatican, and prostrate if I go in and adoration is going on, but that is only my personal opinion/theologoumen.
I must say I am surprised to hear this from you.
I must say that I'm not surprised to hear that you are surprised.  Roll Eyes
But I am suprised to hear that from you.
You are? That's very surprising.

You guys, cut it out.  Is Lent, you not supposed to be making people laugh.   police

LOL
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,126


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2011, 12:57:30 PM »

Here is my take on this, fwiw.  Please bear in mind that I am no theologian, no priest, no nuttin'.  Just a poor working schmuck with a bunch of years under his belt, a bunch of reading that's been done, and a little bit of experience.  Heck, I don't even have a college degree!  Shocked

Anyway....I am a Jew.  As such, I converted to Christianity a number of years ago.  I was baptized into the wonderful Holy Byzantine Catholic Church.  At the same time I was also chrismated, and received Holy Communion.  Sometime later my wife (baptized Byz.Cath, raised RC) and I were received into Orthodoxy (OCA) via chrismation.  Now, I know this may cause some here to become apoplectic Grin, but since our chrismation we have have mainly worshipped and communed in the O.C., but there have been times when (shock, horror, gasp!!!!) we have received communion in the Catholic Church, confessed to and been absolved by Catholic priests.  (Wow---now he's goin' straight to hell in a hand basket!  Roll Eyes)

Why do I say all this?  Because I believe in ONE God, in ONE Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..., in ONE baptism..., etc.  And I believe that that ONE Church is manifested (if that's the right word) in both Orthodoxy AND Catholicism.  And I believe that that makes the apostolicity of both, the validity of the sacraments of both EQUAL.  God is really present in the Eucharist of both.  How could He NOT be?  Can anyone *prove* beyond any reasonable doubt that He is not?  I know, I know....someone out there's going to start throwing theology at me after recovering their eyebrows from the ceiling, but it all boils down to this, as I've asked elsewhere on this forum.....when we come before God at the Final Judgment, will He ask if we were Catholic (yes, and if so, which type?), Orthodox (yes, and if so, which jurisdiction?), Baptist, or Jew, or whatever??  Well....will He?  Or will He ask if we have loved Him, if we have loved our neighbor and our enemy;  if we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc.?  Will He ask if we choose Him or if we choose the other?  I mean, really.....come on folks....I know it's fun and interesting and edifying to argue, discuss, and debate these matters, but are they that which is **really** essential to us as God's children, who, hopefully, love Him above all else?

(Now I'm gonna duck  Grin Wink)

 Smiley

Glad you saw the humor  Grin.  Welcome to the forum!!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
countertenor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2011, 01:12:33 PM »

Here is my take on this, fwiw.  Please bear in mind that I am no theologian, no priest, no nuttin'.  Just a poor working schmuck with a bunch of years under his belt, a bunch of reading that's been done, and a little bit of experience.  Heck, I don't even have a college degree!  Shocked

Anyway....I am a Jew.  As such, I converted to Christianity a number of years ago.  I was baptized into the wonderful Holy Byzantine Catholic Church.  At the same time I was also chrismated, and received Holy Communion.  Sometime later my wife (baptized Byz.Cath, raised RC) and I were received into Orthodoxy (OCA) via chrismation.  Now, I know this may cause some here to become apoplectic Grin, but since our chrismation we have have mainly worshipped and communed in the O.C., but there have been times when (shock, horror, gasp!!!!) we have received communion in the Catholic Church, confessed to and been absolved by Catholic priests.  (Wow---now he's goin' straight to hell in a hand basket!  Roll Eyes)

Why do I say all this?  Because I believe in ONE God, in ONE Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..., in ONE baptism..., etc.  And I believe that that ONE Church is manifested (if that's the right word) in both Orthodoxy AND Catholicism.  And I believe that that makes the apostolicity of both, the validity of the sacraments of both EQUAL.  God is really present in the Eucharist of both.  How could He NOT be?  Can anyone *prove* beyond any reasonable doubt that He is not?  I know, I know....someone out there's going to start throwing theology at me after recovering their eyebrows from the ceiling, but it all boils down to this, as I've asked elsewhere on this forum.....when we come before God at the Final Judgment, will He ask if we were Catholic (yes, and if so, which type?), Orthodox (yes, and if so, which jurisdiction?), Baptist, or Jew, or whatever??  Well....will He?  Or will He ask if we have loved Him, if we have loved our neighbor and our enemy;  if we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc.?  Will He ask if we choose Him or if we choose the other?  I mean, really.....come on folks....I know it's fun and interesting and edifying to argue, discuss, and debate these matters, but are they that which is **really** essential to us as God's children, who, hopefully, love Him above all else?

(Now I'm gonna duck  Grin Wink)

 Smiley

Glad you saw the humor  Grin.  Welcome to the forum!!

I definitely caught the humor, especially as I've experienced all the reactions you mentioned, for the same type of thoughts/actions. Smiley
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2011, 04:15:28 PM »

Ignatius: there are problems EVERYWHERE, including the Orthodox Church. Just yesterday I read an article in a Romanian newspaper about a woman who was six months pregnant and aborted because the child had Down syndrom. She said that she does not feel guilty about anything in front of God because beforehand she went to speak to a priest (orthodox) who told her that she can either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. (!!!) So therefore, in her words, she had a priest's blessing. This enrages me...There are priests with girlfriends/mistresses, there are priests who steal, priests who smuggle cigarettes over the border and try to bribe the policemen, priests who allow their daughter to cohabit with only a civil marriage...Artificial contraception is okay. Ascesis....hahahhaha!

What I mean is that liturgical orthodoxy does not necessarily moral orthodoxy. I can bet that that priest who told that poor woman that she can have an abortion is liturgically correct. But how mistaken he really is.

Grace and Peace,

I understand but the Orthodox Parish that I attend and the Parish Priest is simply a wonderful light for me and my family. My journey East has for a while been one found in theology and cultural debate on this forum but I've found greater fruit in the literal encounter and day to day experience of the faith among the faithful. I know there are problems even within my own heart.

Yes, you are right. I don't want to play the devil's advocate: but what if you'd find a nice, orthodox, good, roman-catholic parish?

I tried... and failed.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2011, 04:18:20 PM »

Relax.  I am not judging you.  But I will ping the notes where you appear to paint the entire Catholic Church with the brush of your own, admittedly limited, experiences.

What does disturbs me is that the Roman Catholic Church attempts to suggest that the Clergy are in communion and of one mind. I honestly don't see that at all. The Parishes that I've attended over the years are very politically ideological and mirror popular secular society. I ask, where is the salt and light? Most have only a thin veneer of the old church traditions present anymore "what smells and bells"? This is what I mean when I speak of the Catholic Church being dead, lost or gone. With their outward orthopracy went their inward orthodoxy. I am sure there are a few hold outs... just none around me. I ask you, how long can they stand? Until their Priest is eventually retired? I don't see enough tradition present in the modern Catholic Liturgy to mold hearts and minds. I don't seen any ascesis present in the clergy to form them into holy examples.

I've asked this of Catholics before, why where the sacred Relics thrown out with the Alters... after Vatican II? Why the radical change is orthopracy? To me, this was similar to the Iconoclasm in the Eastern Church but it was brought about from within... What Church that Claims continuity with the Apostles so quickly throws out their Traditions and Liturgy for another? I've struggled very long to understand that and Priests just look at me dumbfounded. Do you have an answer?

Ignatius, I'd like to respond on two points.

First, I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the state of modern Catholic liturgy.  I am flummoxed by what happened to the liturgy after Vatican II.  It was not a reform of the rite; it was a revolution.  I do not understand how such a revolution was possible.  The rot must have been deep.  I think your reference to the iconoclastic crisis is apt.  A liberal Protestant-inspired iconoclasm swept through the Catholic Church, and it still has its grip on the Catholic mind and spirit.  Despite all talk about the reform of the reform, I do not expect significant changes in my lifetime or the lifetime of my children.  The institution is too deeply invested in the liturgical status quo.  Few parish priests are willing, or able, to challenge this status quo.  Liturgy is not a ditch most are willing to die in.  

Second, I think you are being excessively and unfairly hard on Catholic priests.  The ones I know are faithful, overworked men who are simply overwhelmed by the work that needs to be done in the typical Catholic parish.  Their fidelity is their ascesis.  A single priest is often expected to pastor, all by himself, a congregation of three thousand families.  This is impossible!  And matters are only going to get worse, unless God intervenes.  After all the Masses are said, after all the dead are buried and the infants are baptized, after the administration is done, there simply is no time nor energy left to devote to spiritual renewal, either for oneself or for the parish.  It is all impossible.  

I agree that contemporary Catholicism, particularly at the parish level, has lost the ascetical rhythm of the Church.  This is a huge loss!  But it is wrong to assume that Orthodoxy is producing holier Christians.  Just talk to your local Greek priest.  Both traditions are profoundly compromised.  Both are vulnerable to the acid rain of modernity.  Kyrie eleison.

In the end, we must find shelter and hope to survive.  Ecclesiastical ideology will not save us.    

Grace and Peace,

Thanks for your response. At my Catholic Parish, we have many families but we have 4 Deacons, one who is the Church Administrator, and 2 Priests. They talk endlessly about playing golf and watching the sports on tv... but neither of them attempt to grow in the spirit. I'm hard on them because they should be examples for us. The example they project is a worldly one.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2011, 05:32:56 PM »

Yes, you are right. I don't want to play the devil's advocate: but what if you'd find a nice, orthodox, good, roman-catholic parish?

I tried... and failed.

That is, unfortunately, not all that difficult to believe.

But, just to make sure, did you include Eastern Catholic parishes and "traditionalist" Catholic parishes in your search?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,237



« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2011, 06:19:34 PM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2011, 06:28:11 PM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

There is a maxim in the west, with regard to ecclesial authority, that we are to be obedient in all things but sin.

In that light it may be possible for someone to look at schism as a sin and therefore refuse to recognize formal schism between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches...

In this way they may believe that they are not bound to the sin of schism, regardless of the "rules" or the authority.

I think there is some fairly solid grounds for that argument.

M.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 06:32:03 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2011, 06:36:04 PM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

There is a maxim in the west, with regard to ecclesial authority, that we are to be obedient in all things but sin.

In that light it may be possible for someone to look at schism as a sin and therefore refuse to recognize formal schism between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches...

In this way they may believe that they are not bound to the sin of schism, regardless of the "rules" or the authority.

I think there is some fairly solid grounds for that argument.

M.

It doesn't seem to be an argument acceptable in the East.  Vassula Ryden and her followers have just been excommunicated by the Ecumenical Patriarchate for practising such an approach.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2011, 06:40:49 PM »


It doesn't seem to be an argument acceptable in the East.  Vassula Ryden and her followers have just been excommunicated by the Ecumenical Patriarchate for practising such an approach.

Most authority hates to be flouted quite so publicly. 

But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2011, 06:48:38 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2011, 06:52:06 PM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

Let me start with something from my own experience. About a decade ago there was a Melkite parish near where I was living at the time, which I went to for a couple years (until moving away). After I had been going there for some months, and EO friend of mine began accompanying me. At a still later time, he began receiving communion.

To my mind, there are 2 significant differences between that and what J Michael described. For one thing, my friend was never RC, whereas J Michael told us that he joined the RCC, then left it but continued to receive communion in it. For another thing, my friend joined the EOC as a baby not as an adult.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2011, 06:52:27 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2011, 06:59:46 PM »

Dear elijahmaria and J Michael,

You might say that you're only jesting or only being a smartass, but may I be so bold as to suggest that you read the following quote from C. S. Lewis, and see if you don't fit the description:

Quote
Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any
 communion.* This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the centre of each 
there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with
 the same voice.

(*I would assume he meant women as well as men.)

I bear no "hostility" towards either "communion".  I love them both very much, as a matter of fact, and consider them, rightly or wrongly, equally valid.  My loyalty is to Jesus Christ, not a particular "communion".  So, no, I don't think I fit the description, unless of course in my hurry I mis-read and/or misunderstood it.  I may be "borderline" as Orthodox or Catholic or both, but *not* as a Christian.

I would also concur with Mary's assessment of Lewis.  Some of his fiction, however, is breath taking.


Personally I've never thought much of C. S. Lewis's writing.  There's so much excellent work done by Catholic and Orthodox saints.  Lewis is "accessible" I suppose but that has never been my first criteria for superior spiritual writing.

Besides Jesus and the Apostles worked on the fringes and that becomes ever so apparent this week, just how far out on the edge they were.

I guess I don't really blame you for not liking the C. S. Lewis quote. It's not exactly flattering to either of you. All I can really say is that it fits with my personal experiences -- my experience with you two and some other experiences as well.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2011, 07:07:52 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2011, 07:16:22 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.
Logged

Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,237



« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2011, 07:21:29 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.

There are legitimate boundaries that should not be crossed due to mutual decisions from both camps. It's not God's will for us to have intercommunion at present because we are not in communion with one mind and heart. I don't know if you saw the thread around here about an inquirer to Orthodoxy who believed it was a sin NOT to have pre-marital sex with his girlfriend. The same rule applies here for sure.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2011, 07:26:40 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.

Again... the recent excommunication of Vassula Ryden shows that your thinking is not congenial to the East.  Neither hierarchs nor priests nor laity may commune from non-Orthodox altars, Catholic or Pre-Chalcedonian, Anglican or Utrecht.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2011, 07:45:26 PM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom.  

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.

There are legitimate boundaries that should not be crossed due to mutual decisions from both camps. It's not God's will for us to have intercommunion at present because we are not in communion with one mind and heart. I don't know if you saw the thread around here about an inquirer to Orthodoxy who believed it was a sin NOT to have pre-marital sex with his girlfriend. The same rule applies here for sure.

In Christ,
Andrew

Its a matter of numbers.  Michael J and others like him are scattered pretty thinly in this part of the world.  There are places in the world where Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion is more common and people live out their ecclesial lives...pretty much waiting for the rest of us to catch up.

My point is that we cultivate the schism.  In places where the schism is not cultivated then, de-facto, it does not exist.   I also think that if more people and more bishops stopped recognizing the schism, then the schism would end regardless of how loud some people hollered.   Communion does not demand contractual agreements.  Communion simply is communion.

So we really can choose to either continue or quit cultivating schism...Michael J and others have emphatically stopped cultivating and will either live out their little lives in defiance of a schism they do not recognize or recognize only as sin,  or somebody will dump them out of one camp or the other.  In any event they will have a place to go.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 08:02:08 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2011, 08:25:40 PM »

In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism

It would be nice if you would take your own advice, beginning with the way you post on this forum, but frankly I've pretty much given up on that.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2011, 08:30:03 PM »

Its a matter of numbers.  Michael J and others like him are scattered pretty thinly in this part of the world.  

I don't want to presume that I know what you mean by "Michael J and others like him", but I refer you to what I said earlier:

Let me start with something from my own experience. About a decade ago there was a Melkite parish near where I was living at the time, which I went to for a couple years (until moving away). After I had been going there for some months, and EO friend of mine began accompanying me. At a still later time, he began receiving communion.

To my mind, there are 2 significant differences between that and what J Michael described. For one thing, my friend was never RC, whereas J Michael told us that he joined the RCC, then left it but continued to receive communion in it. For another thing, my friend joined the EOC as a baby not as an adult.


There are places in the world where Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion is more common and people live out their ecclesial lives...pretty much waiting for the rest of us to catch up.

My point is that we cultivate the schism.  In places where the schism is not cultivated then, de-facto, it does not exist.   I also think that if more people and more bishops stopped recognizing the schism, then the schism would end regardless of how loud some people hollered.   Communion does not demand contractual agreements.  Communion simply is communion.

See also http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35138.0.html
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,126


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2011, 10:48:01 AM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

Let me start with something from my own experience. About a decade ago there was a Melkite parish near where I was living at the time, which I went to for a couple years (until moving away). After I had been going there for some months, and EO friend of mine began accompanying me. At a still later time, he began receiving communion.

To my mind, there are 2 significant differences between that and what J Michael described. For one thing, my friend was never RC, whereas J Michael told us that he joined the RCC, then left it but continued to receive communion in it. For another thing, my friend joined the EOC as a baby not as an adult.

Just for the record, I was baptized into the *Byzantine Catholic Church*, which I did mention above, not the RCC.  Not that it really matters, though.

The Church *is* the Bride of Christ, as you (I think it was you, anyway) wrote.  The Church consists of the Catholic Church in all of it's manifestations and the Orthodox Church in all of *it's* manifestations, both of which, to repeat myself, have continuous and unbroken apostolic succession.  I'm well aware that this is not a majority opinion or a popular opinion.  If this pains or upsets you or anyone else who would like to think they are somehow preserving the "purity" of your particular church, I am sorry.  But not, as you might guess, sorry enough to change my position for you or anyone else here.  This is a matter between me and my Creator.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll eventually find out about it.  As Mary indicated, and I thank her for putting it so well, I refuse to recognize and perpetuate the schism created by men.  It is to God that I owe my allegiance, not, as I've said before, Orthodoxy or Catholicism.  God knows my mind and my heart.  I pray daily that He will grant me to know and do His will.  I struggle continuously.  I repent of my sins regularly, and I hope sincerely.  God is and will be my Judge.

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.



 
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2011, 11:11:24 AM »

I'm curious why he would convert to Orthodoxy and then go back to Catholicism to receive their sacraments without a second thought. It's like getting married and then sleeping around. I guess if he's into that sorta thing... :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with you in part but not in full. I don't agree with the "getting married and then sleeping around" comparison, but I agree that it's strange for someone to break off communion with a church (the Catholic Church, in this case) and then want to receive communion in that church.
Is not the Church the bride of Christ? Is a Christian man not expected to commit to one wife and one wife only? Is not infidelity  Though we would disagree which Church that was, my point still remains. As our brother Isa has said on here many times, and I think it bears repeating, Christ has a Bride not a harem. You would agree with that as well, I'm sure. Please understand, I am not referring to your church as a harem, but trying (though imperfectly I'm sure!) to make a point.

It hurts me deeply as an Orthodox Christian to see people so brazenly playing fast and loose with what I (and many others here) consider to be THE Apostolic Faith given us by Christ and preserved intact by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, I need thicker skin. In any event, the lack of any sort of respect for "rules" if you will of both churches is equally troubling.

In Christ,
Andrew

Let me start with something from my own experience. About a decade ago there was a Melkite parish near where I was living at the time, which I went to for a couple years (until moving away). After I had been going there for some months, and EO friend of mine began accompanying me. At a still later time, he began receiving communion.

To my mind, there are 2 significant differences between that and what J Michael described. For one thing, my friend was never RC, whereas J Michael told us that he joined the RCC, then left it but continued to receive communion in it. For another thing, my friend joined the EOC as a baby not as an adult.

Just for the record, I was baptized into the *Byzantine Catholic Church*, which I did mention above, not the RCC.  Not that it really matters, though.

The Church *is* the Bride of Christ, as you (I think it was you, anyway) wrote.  The Church consists of the Catholic Church in all of it's manifestations and the Orthodox Church in all of *it's* manifestations, both of which, to repeat myself, have continuous and unbroken apostolic succession.  I'm well aware that this is not a majority opinion or a popular opinion.  If this pains or upsets you or anyone else who would like to think they are somehow preserving the "purity" of your particular church, I am sorry.  But not, as you might guess, sorry enough to change my position for you or anyone else here.  This is a matter between me and my Creator.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll eventually find out about it.  As Mary indicated, and I thank her for putting it so well, I refuse to recognize and perpetuate the schism created by men.  It is to God that I owe my allegiance, not, as I've said before, Orthodoxy or Catholicism.  God knows my mind and my heart.  I pray daily that He will grant me to know and do His will.  I struggle continuously.  I repent of my sins regularly, and I hope sincerely.  God is and will be my Judge.

If I were to recognize either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as *the* Church of Christ, and remember that it's been said that there is no salvation outside the Church (not totally sure I buy *that*, either, but that's another topic), then am I not somehow condemning by, endorsing that position, all those on the "other side", to some kind of eternal separation from God?  I really don't think it is my position, or yours, or anyone else's to do that.


So what about Anglicans and Protestants? Do you think it's alright to condemn them to some kind of eternal separation from God?

BTW I don't know where you got the idea that your preaching "pains or upsets" me. I doesn't. It's just tiresome -- and a little annoying too, but mostly tiresome.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,412


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2011, 11:47:55 AM »


But I know many who commune in both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church and it is a matter of private practice for them and no one seems to mind or even know the difference in most cases.

So I expect, in the main, it is all a matter for the soul and God.

Are these your friends who are Orthodox bishops and priests?   Do they receive Catholic communion in mufti?  or openly at the altar as priests and bishops?  I suppose if the Orthodox laity see their pastors, their bishops and priests, communing in Catholic churches there is nothing to stop them doing likewise.

I have no idea what you are talking about, except for the fact that you are poking fun at me for asking questions of Orthodox clergy and hierarchs.  I can't stop you from doing that, and you can't stop me from asking.

M.
I'm not poking fun at you.  I am merely saying that if the laity enjoy a legitimate freedom to commune in two Churches if so inclined, then I expect the bishops and priests to have the same freedom. 

Would take very little to make that a reality.  In the meantime I think we should put charity first, and not nurture the schism, but more assertively and positively seek grounds for resumption of communion sooner rather than later.  Perhaps that is what is happening at some level but certainly at other levels that is being undermined at every opportunity and so I do not at all condemn those who refuse to wait in order to do what is right and good.

M.

There are legitimate boundaries that should not be crossed due to mutual decisions from both camps. It's not God's will for us to have intercommunion at present because we are not in communion with one mind and heart. I don't know if you saw the thread around here about an inquirer to Orthodoxy who believed it was a sin NOT to have pre-marital sex with his girlfriend. The same rule applies here for sure.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree with Andrew on this point and that is the stated position of the Orthodox participants in the world-wide and North American theological dialogs with the Catholic Church. While it may not be the opinion of some on the Roman side of the dialog, it most certainly is that of the Orthodox.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.226 seconds with 72 queries.