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Author Topic: Lourdes  (Read 6095 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 12:31:35 PM »


My only fear with all this is the "Mariology" that comes of it.

I'm not saying the Theotokos doesn't appear to people, or intervene on our behalfs - Church of Blachernae is a great example.

I'm just worried that folks don't miss the forest for the trees.
or worse yet, say to wood "You gave me birth." Jeremiah 2:27.

I'm not worried about Mariology, but the Mariolatry concerns me greatly.

Quite right, an important distinction. Precision in language can be lost in our haste to post! Thanks.
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2011, 10:56:19 PM »

What Holy Orthodoxy Has to Say About these Marian Apparitions.... police


The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion.... Grin

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

Orthodoxinfo.com = Holy Orthodoxy?  LOL
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 12:48:33 AM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 04:18:15 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.
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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 05:07:38 PM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:41:40 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.
Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.
I'm not sure that is even technically correct anymore, ever since their Supreme Pontiff John Paul II put "Divine Mercy" on the "Universal Calendar," based on the visions of Sr. Faustina (whose visions, as these things go, are pretty benign and not terribly unorthodox).  Then there is that dedication of the world/Russia to "the immaculate heart of Mary," based on Fatima and several underlying "visions."
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2011, 06:05:57 PM »



I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2011, 09:35:12 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2011, 11:28:50 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 11:52:49 PM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2011, 12:09:23 AM »

It was my experience too, Andrew. Very distressing.
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« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.

I can count on one hand how many times I heard a homiy p
I'm sure it is something that varies from parish to parish, pastor to pastor, and region to region. When I went through the RCIA process in 2006 & 2007 we seemed to have a director of religious education that was not a very big fan of any of the Marian apparitions, so we tended not to talk about them much. Even when we did talk about them, he made sure to always emphasize that none of us are in any way required to believe in them even though they are technically "approved" by the Church.

The reason why private revelations have never been a stumbling block for me is because, by their very nature, private revelations never reveal anything totally new. So, for instance, St. Faustina's divine mercy experience didn't really reveal anything new, it just provided another devotion to renew the Church as it continues to meditate on the loving and merciful nature of Christ (and in my opinion a good devotion...I love the divine mercy chaplet).
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« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2011, 07:48:29 AM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Oh no worries, I was just getting it out there, and yes from experience (mine too) you are absolutely right.

Another topic entirely, but have the Apparitions of Zeitoun been discussed on OC.net?  I don't know much about it, but its the only non-Catholic Marian apparition I've heard of.
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« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2011, 08:31:07 AM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Oh no worries, I was just getting it out there, and yes from experience (mine too) you are absolutely right.

Another topic entirely, but have the Apparitions of Zeitoun been discussed on OC.net?  I don't know much about it, but its the only non-Catholic Marian apparition I've heard of.
I'm not sure exactly. I haven't seen them pop up lately, but I think in the EO-OO subforum there may have been in the past.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2011, 09:46:47 AM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.

That kind of rigidity, and I am assuming it was rigidity, is very familiar to me.  On occasion it does take heroic acts of virtue to remain in any Church.  So much rides on one man...one priest...one moment in time [and I recognize those "moments" can last for years].  I won't pry, but I will pray for interior peace for her...and you.  That circumstance cannot help having an effect on you.  Knowing all the right answers, theoretically, does not always heal the person in actuality.
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« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2011, 11:46:52 AM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
Really? Because my life and experience are not that of Shultz? Izzy, sometimes you make strange statements.
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« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2011, 12:00:04 PM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.

That kind of rigidity, and I am assuming it was rigidity, is very familiar to me.  On occasion it does take heroic acts of virtue to remain in any Church.  So much rides on one man...one priest...one moment in time [and I recognize those "moments" can last for years].  I won't pry, but I will pray for interior peace for her...and you.  That circumstance cannot help having an effect on you.  Knowing all the right answers, theoretically, does not always heal the person in actuality.

Fear not as that type of rigidity (obviously I don't mean Fatima,but in general terms)  is hardly unique to the Church of Rome nor is its presence entirely absent within Orthodoxy. I agree that such 'pastors' do much harm to the faith of many. We have to remember that while the Church is 'of God' it is run by mere mortal men.
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« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2011, 04:15:25 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.
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« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.

Not all all.  Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because the messages Mary allegedly gave in it; "all religions are dear to Jesus."
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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.

Not all all.  Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because the messages Mary allegedly gave in it; "all religions are dear to Jesus."

Yeah, that's been my experience.
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« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2011, 06:33:26 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
Really? Because my life and experience are not that of Shultz? Izzy, sometimes you make strange statements.
If you are paying attention during the homily at your parish, and accurately representing it here, I can turn on EWTN any day and see that you go to an odd parish. Any day.

So, what does your parish do the Sunday following Easter, since you don't observe the Sunday of Divine Mercy?
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Frederic
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Faith: Roman Catholicism > Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Antioch
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St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2012, 01:26:36 AM »

Mary appeared to St Bernadette and said "I am the Immaculate Conception"

There is a small controversy about the sentence "I am the Immaculate Conception" in English. Some believe it is incorrect and should read "I am the Immaculate Conceived". I think the first version is not totally incorrect but I prefer the second version.

This point is slightly off topic since the sentence was originally pronounced in Gascon language.
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«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
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