OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 04:15:11 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lourdes  (Read 5655 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LittleFlower
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 63


« on: April 03, 2011, 02:08:20 AM »

Hello,

I have always wanted to know this, what is your opinion of Lourdes? Mary appeared to St Bernadette and said "I am the Immaculate Conception", and now there is a miraculous spring of water there through which God has healed many people, because of their faith. The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it. She repeated the words over and over on her way home so she would not forget them, and then told the priest.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 836


Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!


« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 02:12:15 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Personally( and I converted from Catholicism) never put much stock in any Marian apparition and well I'm not sure what to believe it's very possible it could have been a demon. I find it hard to believe that it was actually the Mother of God.

In Christ,
Seraphim(David)
Logged

"Come ye take light from The Light that is never overtaken by night and glorify the Christ, who is risen from the dead"
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 02:28:22 AM »

Hello,

I have always wanted to know this, what is your opinion of Lourdes? Mary appeared to St Bernadette and said "I am the Immaculate Conception", and now there is a miraculous spring of water there through which God has healed many people, because of their faith. The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it. She repeated the words over and over on her way home so she would not forget them, and then told the priest.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you

I'm rather inclined to believe it was inauthentic: either delusion or demonic apparition (or less likely it was a Marian apparition but misinterpreted).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 02:28:54 AM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 02:32:16 AM »

Fwiw, while there have been Marian apparitions in Orthodoxy, on the advice of Church Fathers many Orthodox are skepticial of anything like that. As for me, I don't know nearly enough about Lourdes to say anything either way.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 12:14:43 PM »

Hello,

I have always wanted to know this, what is your opinion of Lourdes? Mary appeared to St Bernadette and said "I am the Immaculate Conception", and now there is a miraculous spring of water there through which God has healed many people, because of their faith. The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it. She repeated the words over and over on her way home so she would not forget them, and then told the priest.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you

As a child, I was more drawn to the grotto at Lourdes than to any other Marian apparition. 

I tend not to be attracted to wonder-works.  In fact the Catholic saint that I am closest to is St. Teresa of Avila who constantly cautioned the nuns to ignore all consolations and wonder-works...speak of them ONLY to your spiritual father or mother and then leave them and go back to the ordinary tasks of each day as it comes.

But there is something about the rest of Bernadette's life that draws me.  The simplicity of her faith and the fact that she withdrew from the public view into the consecrated life of contemplation and prayer.  These things speak to me of someone who experienced a work of wonder, yet did not allow it to consume her or distract her from living in the prayerful presence of God...and letting all the rest simply go by.



Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »

I am Catholic and I do not really pay attention to the approved Marian apparitions. That is not to say that I think they are bad or that people should not pay attention to them, they are just not a part of my spirituality. I think that is the beauty of the Catholic Church is that we have so many wonderful devotions and ways to give glory to God that one need not just do it one specific way. There is no one size fits all. This is drastically different from how it was when I was still a Protestant Christian. We were basically told how to pray and what to do and there was little to no deviation from those instructions.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 12:20:10 PM by Wyatt » Logged
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 02:19:49 PM »

The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 03:08:38 PM »

The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.

I think that's not quite a realistic assertion.  Lourdes is located in a mountainous region in southern France and was influenced for hundreds of years consecutively by the Moors, the Cathars and the Albigensian heresy, English protestants, and finally the war between Huguenots and Catholics, where the protestant Huguenots had been in control of the region for many generations.  The region was poor, mountainous and out of the way.   Catholicism had only been allowed to grow freely in that region for about 150 years before apparitions began, and even then this remote and poor area around Lourdes would have been one of the last communities to be reached by Catholic missionary priests and nuns.  That is one of the reasons the Church believes that the apparitions occurred there.  To help restore the faith to that region.

So I don't think you can make your own assertion stand up under the weight of historical evidence.
Logged

Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 08:08:49 PM »

The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.

I think that's not quite a realistic assertion.  Lourdes is located in a mountainous region in southern France and was influenced for hundreds of years consecutively by the Moors, the Cathars and the Albigensian heresy, English protestants, and finally the war between Huguenots and Catholics, where the protestant Huguenots had been in control of the region for many generations.  The region was poor, mountainous and out of the way.   Catholicism had only been allowed to grow freely in that region for about 150 years before apparitions began, and even then this remote and poor area around Lourdes would have been one of the last communities to be reached by Catholic missionary priests and nuns.  That is one of the reasons the Church believes that the apparitions occurred there.  To help restore the faith to that region.

So I don't think you can make your own assertion stand up under the weight of historical evidence.

The Moors were turned back more than 1,000 years prior, the Cathars and Albigensians, aside from being the same thing, ended 600 years prior. Although from what I've read the people of the region continued to self-identify as "Cathars" the heresy itself was stamped out. The Huguenots didn't arise for another several hundred years (admittedly the Church of Rome was in dire need of reform during that period so the chances the area was neglected are quite high), I'm not aware of any English Protestants (I assume you mean Anglicans) in the area. As part of the Kingdom of Navarre it most certainly had a strong Huguenot presence, but that didn't last long, as Navarre was only dominated by the Protestants (and keep in mind that the early Protestants had much the same view of Mary as Catholics of the time) until Henry of Navarre took the throne of France. Shortly after Henry was assassinated and Huguenots were persecuted, and driven from public life (Louis XIV, before he officially outlawed Protestantism, used to billet the most obnoxious soldiers with Protestant families).
Throughout the Revolution the South and West of France were hotbeds of anti-revolutionary decent, mostly because the Catholic faith had been suppressed. After the few years of suppression, Catholics were allowed to practice their faith freely.

Now of course none of these events spreading Catholicism happened specifically in Lourdes, but neither did any of the events you mentioned. They happened in the region around it, now why am I supposed to believe these short lived events you mention (totalling probably 100-150 years in the thousand preceeding) are supposed to somehow have a stronger impact than the continuity of Catholic control of the region with its brief interuptions (about 850-900 years of the 1,000 preceeding)?

Here's the thing though... even if the Catholic Church had only been going well for some 150 years in the region, priests don't build up teaching over time, they don't teach the very basics to one generation, move on to more complex with the next, and even more complex with the next, they teach it all. Given how common the belief in the immaculate conception was when Pius IX declared it to be dogma, it would be quite surprising if the priests of the region weren't teaching it, and even more suprising if traders didn't bring it with them from outside at some point.

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 09:13:07 PM »



Here's the thing though... even if the Catholic Church had only been going well for some 150 years in the region, priests don't build up teaching over time, they don't teach the very basics to one generation, move on to more complex with the next, and even more complex with the next, they teach it all. Given how common the belief in the immaculate conception was when Pius IX declared it to be dogma, it would be quite surprising if the priests of the region weren't teaching it, and even more suprising if traders didn't bring it with them from outside at some point.



Are you a priest?  A catechist?  Ever done missionary work in poor countries?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 09:29:21 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 10:13:31 PM »

The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.

I think that's not quite a realistic assertion.  Lourdes is located in a mountainous region in southern France and was influenced for hundreds of years consecutively by the Moors, the Cathars and the Albigensian heresy, English protestants, and finally the war between Huguenots and Catholics, where the protestant Huguenots had been in control of the region for many generations.  The region was poor, mountainous and out of the way.   Catholicism had only been allowed to grow freely in that region for about 150 years before apparitions began, and even then this remote and poor area around Lourdes would have been one of the last communities to be reached by Catholic missionary priests and nuns.  That is one of the reasons the Church believes that the apparitions occurred there.  To help restore the faith to that region.

So I don't think you can make your own assertion stand up under the weight of historical evidence.
Oh, please too poor and isolated that it was cut off from the Vatican?
Quote
The famous Duns Scotus (d. 1308) at last (in III Sent., dist. iii, in both commentaries) laid the foundations of the true doctrine so solidly and dispelled the objections in a manner so satisfactory, that from that time onward the doctrine prevailed. He showed that the sanctification after animation — sanctificatio post animationem — demanded that it should follow in the order of nature (naturae) not of time (temporis); he removed the great difficulty of St. Thomas showing that, so far from being excluded from redemption, the Blessed Virgin obtained of her Divine Son the greatest of redemptions through the mystery of her preservation from all sin. He also brought forward, by way of illustration, the somewhat dangerous and doubtful argument of Eadmer (S. Anselm) "decuit, potuit, ergo fecit."

From the time of Scotus not only did the doctrine become the common opinion at the universities, but the feast spread widely to those countries where it had not been previously adopted. With the exception of the Dominicans, all or nearly all, of the religious orders took it up: The Franciscans at the general chapter at Pisa in 1263 adopted the Feast of the Conception of Mary for the entire order; this, however, does not mean that they professed at that time the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Following in the footsteps of their own Duns Scotus, the learned Petrus Aureolus and Franciscus de Mayronis became the most fervent champions of the doctrine, although their older teachers (St. Bonaventure included) had been opposed to it. The controversy continued, but the defenders of the opposing opinion were almost entirely confined to the members of the Dominican Order. In 1439 the dispute was brought before the Council of Basle where the University of Paris, formerly opposed to the doctrine, proved to be its most ardent advocate, asking for a dogmatical definition. The two referees at the council were John of Segovia and John Turrecremata (Torquemada). After it had been discussed for the space of two years before that assemblage, the bishops declared the Immaculate Conception to be a doctrine which was pious, consonant with Catholic worship, Catholic faith, right reason, and Holy Scripture; nor, said they, was it henceforth allowable to preach or declare to the contrary (Mansi, XXXIX, 182). The Fathers of the Council say that the Church of Rome was celebrating the feast. This is true only in a certain sense. It was kept in a number of churches of Rome, especially in those of the religious orders, but it was not received in the official calendar. As the council at the time was not ecumenical, it could not pronounce with authority. The memorandum of the Dominican Torquemada formed the armoury for all attacks upon the doctrine made by St. Antoninus of Florence (d. 1459), and by the Dominicans Bandelli and Spina.

By a Decree of 28 February, 1476, Sixtus IV at last adopted the feast for the entire Latin Church and granted an indulgence to all who would assist at the Divine Offices of the solemnity (Denzinger, 734). The Office adopted by Sixtus IV was composed by Leonard de Nogarolis, whilst the Franciscans, since 1480, used a very beautiful Office from the pen of Bernardine dei Busti (Sicut Lilium), which was granted also to others (e.g. to Spain, 1761), and was chanted by the Franciscans up to the second half of the nineteenth century. As the public acknowledgment of the feast of Sixtus IV did not prove sufficient to appease the conflict, he published in 1483 a constitution in which he punished with excommunication all those of either opinion who charged the opposite opinion with heresy (Grave nimis, 4 Sept., 1483; Denzinger, 735). In 1546 the Council of Trent, when the question was touched upon, declared that "it was not the intention of this Holy Synod to include in the decree which concerns original sin the Blessed and Immaculate Virgin Mary Mother of God" (Sess. V, De peccato originali, v, in Denzinger, 792). Since, however, this decree did not define the doctrine, the theological opponents of the mystery, though more and more reduced in numbers, did not yield. St. Pius V not only condemned proposition 73 of Baius that "no one but Christ was without original sin, and that therefore the Blessed Virgin had died because of the sin contracted in Adam, and had endured afilictions in this life, like the rest of the just, as punishment of actual and original sin" (Denzinger, 1073) but he also issued a constitution in which he forbade all public discussion of the subject. Finally he inserted a new and simplified Office of the Conception in the liturgical books ("Super speculam", Dec., 1570; "Superni omnipotentis", March, 1571; "Bullarium Marianum", pp. 72, 75).

Whilst these disputes went on, the great universities and almost all the great orders had become so many bulwarks for the defense of the dogma. In 1497 the University of Paris decreed that henceforward no one should be admitted a member of the university, who did not swear that he would do the utmost to defend and assert the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Toulouse [i.e. the Archdiocese to which Lourdes belonged] followed the example; in Italy, Bologna and Naples; in the German Empire, Cologne, Maine, and Vienna; in Belgium, Louvain; in England before the Reformation. Oxford and Cambridge; in Spain Salamanca, Toledo, Seville, and Valencia; in Portugal, Coimbra and Evora; in America, Mexico and Lima. The Friars Minor confirmed in 1621 the election of the Immaculate Mother as patron of the order, and bound themselves by oath to teach the mystery in public and in private. The Dominicans, however, were under special obligation to follow the doctrines of St. Thomas, and the common conclusion was that St. Thomas was opposed to the Immaculate Conception. Therefore the Dominicans asserted that the doctrine was an error against faith (John of Montesono, 1373); although they adopted the feast, they termed it persistently "Sanctificatio B.M.V." not "Conceptio", until in 1622 Gregory XV abolished the term "sanctificatio". Paul V (1617) decreed that no one should dare to teach publicly that Mary was conceived in original sin, and Gregory XV (1622) imposed absolute silence (in scriptis et sermonibus etiam privatis) upon the adversaries of the doctrine until the Holy See should define the question. To put an end to all further cavilling, Alexander VII promulgated on 8 December 1661, the famous constitution "Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum", defining the true sense of the word conceptio, and forbidding all further discussion against the common and pious sentiment of the Church. He declared that the immunity of Mary from original sin in the first moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into the body was the object of the feast (Densinger, 1100).

Since the time of Alexander VII, long before the final definition, there was no doubt on the part of theologians that the privilege was amongst the truths revealed by God. Wherefore Pius IX, surrounded by a splendid throng of cardinals and bishops, 8 December 1854, promulgated the dogma. A new Office was prescribed for the entire Latin Church by Pius IX (25 December, 1863), by which decree all the other Offices in use were abolished, including the old Office Sicut lilium of the Franciscans, and the Office composed by Passaglia (approved 2 Feb., 1849).

In 1904 the golden jubilee of the definition of the dogma was celebrated with great splendour (Pius X, Enc., 2 Feb., 1904). Clement IX added to the feast an octave for the dioceses within the temporal possessions of the pope (1667). Innocent XII (1693) raised it to a double of the second class with an octave for the universal Church, which rank had been already given to it in 1664 for Spain, in 1665 for Tuscany and Savoy, in 1667 for the Society of Jesus, the Hermits of St. Augustine, etc., Clement XI decreed on 6 Dec., 1708, that the feast should be a holiday of obligation throughout the entire Church. At last Leo XIII, 30 Nov 1879, raised the feast to a double of the first class with a vigil, a dignity which had long before been granted to Sicily (1739), to Spain (1760) and to the United States (1847). A Votive Office of the Conception of Mary, which is now recited in almost the entire Latin Church on free Saturdays, was granted first to the Benedictine nuns of St. Anne at Rome in 1603, to the Franciscans in 1609, to the Conventuals in 1612, etc. The Syrian and Chaldean Churches celebrate this feast with the Greeks on 9 December; in Armenia it is one of the few immovable feasts of the year (9 December); the schismatic Abyssinians and Copts keep it on 7 August whilst they celebrate the Nativity of Mary on 1 May; the Catholic Copts, however, have transferred the feast to 10 December (Nativity, 10 September). The Eastern Catholics have since 1854 changed the name of the feast in accordance with the dogma to the "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary."

The Archdiocese of Palermo solemnizes a Commemoration of the Immaculate Conception on 1 September to give thanks for the preservation of the city on occasion of the earthquake, 1 September, 1726. A similar commemoration is held on 14 January at Catania (earthquake, 11 Jan., 1693); and by the Oblate Fathers on 17 Feb., because their rule was approved 17 Feb., 1826. Between 20 September 1839, and 7 May 1847, the privilege of adding to the Litany of Loretto the invocation, "Queen conceived without original sin", had been granted to 300 dioceses and religious communities. The Immaculate Conception was declared on 8 November, 1760, principal patron of all the possessions of the crown of Spain, including those in America. The decree of the First Council of Baltimore (1846) electing Mary in her Immaculate Conception principal Patron of the United States, was confirmed on 7 February, 1847.
Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The "Catholic Encyclopedia" history of the Diocese of Tarbes-Lourdes doesn't mention any Moors (though it mentions their nemesis, Charlemagne, building monasteries there), Cathars or Albigensians (though the war of extermination against them fought by the Inquisition would have even more ensured that Lourdes would have been firmly under the Vatican's command: the last Cathari executed was in 1321), nor English (though it mentions that the bishop who became cardinal of Toulouse, whose suffragan Tarbes was, who acted as go between the Vatican and Henry VIII; besides, since the English invented the IC, English influence would only further make it likely the IC was known in the region), nor Huguenots (though the vacuum suckng in Vatican influence after the expulsion of the Huguenots would again make sure the region got with the program)

Quote
Tradition has preserved the names of St. Girinus and St. Evex or Erex, as the first martyrs of Bigorre. The district was laid waste by the Vandals, who were afterwards put to flight by St. Missolinus, a priest; it was disturbed by the Priscillianist heresy and finally terrorized by the Arian Visigoths, who, in the reign of Ewarik, waged a bloody persecution against the clergy.

Mgr Duchesne considers St. Justin whom the "Gallia Christiana" cites as the first in the list of bishops of Tarbes, to have been only a priest, and excludes from the list Faustus of Riez. He considers Aper, represented at the Council of Agde in 506, as the first historically known bishop of the see. Among the successors are cited: St. Landeolus, bishop in 870; William I (1120-41) who helped draw up the ancient "For de Bigorre," one of the oldest and most curious monuments of the law of the middle Ages; Pierre de Foix (1462-64), cardinal in 1437; Gabriel de Gramont (1524-34), cardinal in 1531, who attempted to negotiate between Henry VIII and the Holy See to prevent a rupture.

The Benedictine monastery of St. Savin of Lavedan was founded by Charlemagne and shortly took the name of the hermit and miracle worker, St. Savin, who was one of its monks and died before 840; the abbot was lord of the territory and the villages under his obedience were called a republic. The Benedictine Abbeys of St. Orens of Larreule and of St. Orens of Lavedan were founded, one in 970 and the other before the eleventh century in honour of St. Orens, Bishop of Auch, who had first lived as a hermit in the Lavedan. The monastery of St-Pe de Generes, was founded about 1032 by Sanche, Duke of Gascony; it was the cradle of the town of Saint-Pe. The priory of Sarrancolin was founded about 1050 in memory of St. Ebbons, who fought against the Moors in Catalonia and died at Sarrancolin. The Abbey of Escale Dieu was founded in 1140; it was the daughter of the Cistercian Abbey of Morimond. St. Bertrand of Comminges was one of its monks; another, St. Raymond, was sent to Spain in 1158, where he founded the Abbey of Fitere, and the celebrated semi-religious, semi-military order of Calatrava. St. Bertrand, Bishop of Comminges (1073-1123), preached the Gospel in the Vallee d'Azun in the Diocese of Tarbes. To make amends for the hostile reception that had been given him, the inhabitants pledged themselves to give the See of Comminges all the butter that should be produced in the territory of Azun during the week preceding Pentecost; this impost was paid down to 1789. As natives of Bigorre may be cited: Cardinal Arnaud d'Ossat (1536-1604), born at Larroque Magnoac, who played an important part in the reign of Henry IV; Bernard pierre Carasse, born at Tarbes at the opening of the sixteenth century, who, from being a warrior, became general of the Carthusians, revised the constitutions of the order, and was so illustrious in his day, that in 1582 Catherine de Medici visited La Chartreuse to see him.
Nihil Obstat. July 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14453a.htm

Of course, this is overkill: if Bernadette had been so cut off from influence of the Vatican, how is it that she was born into a family of devout followers of the Vatican at Lourdes?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 10:16:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 10:21:46 PM »

What an absurd response to the simple proposition that Bernadette was poor and slow and most likely did not know what the woman in the grotto was saying to her really.

What an inane waste of band width.

Knock your small self out!!


The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.

What are your views on this apparition?

thank you
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.

I think that's not quite a realistic assertion.  Lourdes is located in a mountainous region in southern France and was influenced for hundreds of years consecutively by the Moors, the Cathars and the Albigensian heresy, English protestants, and finally the war between Huguenots and Catholics, where the protestant Huguenots had been in control of the region for many generations.  The region was poor, mountainous and out of the way.   Catholicism had only been allowed to grow freely in that region for about 150 years before apparitions began, and even then this remote and poor area around Lourdes would have been one of the last communities to be reached by Catholic missionary priests and nuns.  That is one of the reasons the Church believes that the apparitions occurred there.  To help restore the faith to that region.

So I don't think you can make your own assertion stand up under the weight of historical evidence.
Oh, please too poor and isolated that it was cut off from the Vatican?
Quote
The famous Duns Scotus (d. 1308) at last (in III Sent., dist. iii, in both commentaries) laid the foundations of the true doctrine so solidly and dispelled the objections in a manner so satisfactory, that from that time onward the doctrine prevailed. He showed that the sanctification after animation — sanctificatio post animationem — demanded that it should follow in the order of nature (naturae) not of time (temporis); he removed the great difficulty of St. Thomas showing that, so far from being excluded from redemption, the Blessed Virgin obtained of her Divine Son the greatest of redemptions through the mystery of her preservation from all sin. He also brought forward, by way of illustration, the somewhat dangerous and doubtful argument of Eadmer (S. Anselm) "decuit, potuit, ergo fecit."

From the time of Scotus not only did the doctrine become the common opinion at the universities, but the feast spread widely to those countries where it had not been previously adopted. With the exception of the Dominicans, all or nearly all, of the religious orders took it up: The Franciscans at the general chapter at Pisa in 1263 adopted the Feast of the Conception of Mary for the entire order; this, however, does not mean that they professed at that time the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Following in the footsteps of their own Duns Scotus, the learned Petrus Aureolus and Franciscus de Mayronis became the most fervent champions of the doctrine, although their older teachers (St. Bonaventure included) had been opposed to it. The controversy continued, but the defenders of the opposing opinion were almost entirely confined to the members of the Dominican Order. In 1439 the dispute was brought before the Council of Basle where the University of Paris, formerly opposed to the doctrine, proved to be its most ardent advocate, asking for a dogmatical definition. The two referees at the council were John of Segovia and John Turrecremata (Torquemada). After it had been discussed for the space of two years before that assemblage, the bishops declared the Immaculate Conception to be a doctrine which was pious, consonant with Catholic worship, Catholic faith, right reason, and Holy Scripture; nor, said they, was it henceforth allowable to preach or declare to the contrary (Mansi, XXXIX, 182). The Fathers of the Council say that the Church of Rome was celebrating the feast. This is true only in a certain sense. It was kept in a number of churches of Rome, especially in those of the religious orders, but it was not received in the official calendar. As the council at the time was not ecumenical, it could not pronounce with authority. The memorandum of the Dominican Torquemada formed the armoury for all attacks upon the doctrine made by St. Antoninus of Florence (d. 1459), and by the Dominicans Bandelli and Spina.

By a Decree of 28 February, 1476, Sixtus IV at last adopted the feast for the entire Latin Church and granted an indulgence to all who would assist at the Divine Offices of the solemnity (Denzinger, 734). The Office adopted by Sixtus IV was composed by Leonard de Nogarolis, whilst the Franciscans, since 1480, used a very beautiful Office from the pen of Bernardine dei Busti (Sicut Lilium), which was granted also to others (e.g. to Spain, 1761), and was chanted by the Franciscans up to the second half of the nineteenth century. As the public acknowledgment of the feast of Sixtus IV did not prove sufficient to appease the conflict, he published in 1483 a constitution in which he punished with excommunication all those of either opinion who charged the opposite opinion with heresy (Grave nimis, 4 Sept., 1483; Denzinger, 735). In 1546 the Council of Trent, when the question was touched upon, declared that "it was not the intention of this Holy Synod to include in the decree which concerns original sin the Blessed and Immaculate Virgin Mary Mother of God" (Sess. V, De peccato originali, v, in Denzinger, 792). Since, however, this decree did not define the doctrine, the theological opponents of the mystery, though more and more reduced in numbers, did not yield. St. Pius V not only condemned proposition 73 of Baius that "no one but Christ was without original sin, and that therefore the Blessed Virgin had died because of the sin contracted in Adam, and had endured afilictions in this life, like the rest of the just, as punishment of actual and original sin" (Denzinger, 1073) but he also issued a constitution in which he forbade all public discussion of the subject. Finally he inserted a new and simplified Office of the Conception in the liturgical books ("Super speculam", Dec., 1570; "Superni omnipotentis", March, 1571; "Bullarium Marianum", pp. 72, 75).

Whilst these disputes went on, the great universities and almost all the great orders had become so many bulwarks for the defense of the dogma. In 1497 the University of Paris decreed that henceforward no one should be admitted a member of the university, who did not swear that he would do the utmost to defend and assert the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Toulouse [i.e. the Archdiocese to which Lourdes belonged] followed the example; in Italy, Bologna and Naples; in the German Empire, Cologne, Maine, and Vienna; in Belgium, Louvain; in England before the Reformation. Oxford and Cambridge; in Spain Salamanca, Toledo, Seville, and Valencia; in Portugal, Coimbra and Evora; in America, Mexico and Lima. The Friars Minor confirmed in 1621 the election of the Immaculate Mother as patron of the order, and bound themselves by oath to teach the mystery in public and in private. The Dominicans, however, were under special obligation to follow the doctrines of St. Thomas, and the common conclusion was that St. Thomas was opposed to the Immaculate Conception. Therefore the Dominicans asserted that the doctrine was an error against faith (John of Montesono, 1373); although they adopted the feast, they termed it persistently "Sanctificatio B.M.V." not "Conceptio", until in 1622 Gregory XV abolished the term "sanctificatio". Paul V (1617) decreed that no one should dare to teach publicly that Mary was conceived in original sin, and Gregory XV (1622) imposed absolute silence (in scriptis et sermonibus etiam privatis) upon the adversaries of the doctrine until the Holy See should define the question. To put an end to all further cavilling, Alexander VII promulgated on 8 December 1661, the famous constitution "Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum", defining the true sense of the word conceptio, and forbidding all further discussion against the common and pious sentiment of the Church. He declared that the immunity of Mary from original sin in the first moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into the body was the object of the feast (Densinger, 1100).

Since the time of Alexander VII, long before the final definition, there was no doubt on the part of theologians that the privilege was amongst the truths revealed by God. Wherefore Pius IX, surrounded by a splendid throng of cardinals and bishops, 8 December 1854, promulgated the dogma. A new Office was prescribed for the entire Latin Church by Pius IX (25 December, 1863), by which decree all the other Offices in use were abolished, including the old Office Sicut lilium of the Franciscans, and the Office composed by Passaglia (approved 2 Feb., 1849).

In 1904 the golden jubilee of the definition of the dogma was celebrated with great splendour (Pius X, Enc., 2 Feb., 1904). Clement IX added to the feast an octave for the dioceses within the temporal possessions of the pope (1667). Innocent XII (1693) raised it to a double of the second class with an octave for the universal Church, which rank had been already given to it in 1664 for Spain, in 1665 for Tuscany and Savoy, in 1667 for the Society of Jesus, the Hermits of St. Augustine, etc., Clement XI decreed on 6 Dec., 1708, that the feast should be a holiday of obligation throughout the entire Church. At last Leo XIII, 30 Nov 1879, raised the feast to a double of the first class with a vigil, a dignity which had long before been granted to Sicily (1739), to Spain (1760) and to the United States (1847). A Votive Office of the Conception of Mary, which is now recited in almost the entire Latin Church on free Saturdays, was granted first to the Benedictine nuns of St. Anne at Rome in 1603, to the Franciscans in 1609, to the Conventuals in 1612, etc. The Syrian and Chaldean Churches celebrate this feast with the Greeks on 9 December; in Armenia it is one of the few immovable feasts of the year (9 December); the schismatic Abyssinians and Copts keep it on 7 August whilst they celebrate the Nativity of Mary on 1 May; the Catholic Copts, however, have transferred the feast to 10 December (Nativity, 10 September). The Eastern Catholics have since 1854 changed the name of the feast in accordance with the dogma to the "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary."

The Archdiocese of Palermo solemnizes a Commemoration of the Immaculate Conception on 1 September to give thanks for the preservation of the city on occasion of the earthquake, 1 September, 1726. A similar commemoration is held on 14 January at Catania (earthquake, 11 Jan., 1693); and by the Oblate Fathers on 17 Feb., because their rule was approved 17 Feb., 1826. Between 20 September 1839, and 7 May 1847, the privilege of adding to the Litany of Loretto the invocation, "Queen conceived without original sin", had been granted to 300 dioceses and religious communities. The Immaculate Conception was declared on 8 November, 1760, principal patron of all the possessions of the crown of Spain, including those in America. The decree of the First Council of Baltimore (1846) electing Mary in her Immaculate Conception principal Patron of the United States, was confirmed on 7 February, 1847.
Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The "Catholic Encyclopedia" history of the Diocese of Tarbes-Lourdes doesn't mention any Moors (though it mentions their nemesis, Charlemagne, building monasteries there), Cathars or Albigensians (though the war of extermination against them fought by the Inquisition would have even more ensured that Lourdes would have been firmly under the Vatican's command: the last Cathari executed was in 1321), nor English (though it mentions that the bishop who became cardinal of Toulouse, whose suffragan Tarbes was, who acted as go between the Vatican and Henry VIII; besides, since the English invented the IC, English influence would only further make it likely the IC was known in the region), nor Huguenots (though the vacuum suckng in Vatican influence after the expulsion of the Huguenots would again make sure the region got with the program)

Quote
Tradition has preserved the names of St. Girinus and St. Evex or Erex, as the first martyrs of Bigorre. The district was laid waste by the Vandals, who were afterwards put to flight by St. Missolinus, a priest; it was disturbed by the Priscillianist heresy and finally terrorized by the Arian Visigoths, who, in the reign of Ewarik, waged a bloody persecution against the clergy.

Mgr Duchesne considers St. Justin whom the "Gallia Christiana" cites as the first in the list of bishops of Tarbes, to have been only a priest, and excludes from the list Faustus of Riez. He considers Aper, represented at the Council of Agde in 506, as the first historically known bishop of the see. Among the successors are cited: St. Landeolus, bishop in 870; William I (1120-41) who helped draw up the ancient "For de Bigorre," one of the oldest and most curious monuments of the law of the middle Ages; Pierre de Foix (1462-64), cardinal in 1437; Gabriel de Gramont (1524-34), cardinal in 1531, who attempted to negotiate between Henry VIII and the Holy See to prevent a rupture.

The Benedictine monastery of St. Savin of Lavedan was founded by Charlemagne and shortly took the name of the hermit and miracle worker, St. Savin, who was one of its monks and died before 840; the abbot was lord of the territory and the villages under his obedience were called a republic. The Benedictine Abbeys of St. Orens of Larreule and of St. Orens of Lavedan were founded, one in 970 and the other before the eleventh century in honour of St. Orens, Bishop of Auch, who had first lived as a hermit in the Lavedan. The monastery of St-Pe de Generes, was founded about 1032 by Sanche, Duke of Gascony; it was the cradle of the town of Saint-Pe. The priory of Sarrancolin was founded about 1050 in memory of St. Ebbons, who fought against the Moors in Catalonia and died at Sarrancolin. The Abbey of Escale Dieu was founded in 1140; it was the daughter of the Cistercian Abbey of Morimond. St. Bertrand of Comminges was one of its monks; another, St. Raymond, was sent to Spain in 1158, where he founded the Abbey of Fitere, and the celebrated semi-religious, semi-military order of Calatrava. St. Bertrand, Bishop of Comminges (1073-1123), preached the Gospel in the Vallee d'Azun in the Diocese of Tarbes. To make amends for the hostile reception that had been given him, the inhabitants pledged themselves to give the See of Comminges all the butter that should be produced in the territory of Azun during the week preceding Pentecost; this impost was paid down to 1789. As natives of Bigorre may be cited: Cardinal Arnaud d'Ossat (1536-1604), born at Larroque Magnoac, who played an important part in the reign of Henry IV; Bernard pierre Carasse, born at Tarbes at the opening of the sixteenth century, who, from being a warrior, became general of the Carthusians, revised the constitutions of the order, and was so illustrious in his day, that in 1582 Catherine de Medici visited La Chartreuse to see him.
Nihil Obstat. July 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14453a.htm

Of course, this is overkill: if Bernadette had been so cut off from influence of the Vatican, how is it that she was born into a family of devout followers of the Vatican at Lourdes?
Logged

Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 11:03:25 PM »



Here's the thing though... even if the Catholic Church had only been going well for some 150 years in the region, priests don't build up teaching over time, they don't teach the very basics to one generation, move on to more complex with the next, and even more complex with the next, they teach it all. Given how common the belief in the immaculate conception was when Pius IX declared it to be dogma, it would be quite surprising if the priests of the region weren't teaching it, and even more suprising if traders didn't bring it with them from outside at some point.



Are you a priest?  A catechist?  Ever done missionary work in poor countries?

Nope, nope (not a formal post in the Orthodox Church), yep.

Why?

Are you saying that the Christians I found in the remote mountainous areas of Thailand, compared to the lack of Christianity in the cities might somehow prove your point?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:15:29 PM by Kasatkin fan » Logged
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 11:15:01 PM »

What an absurd response to the simple proposition that Bernadette was poor and slow and most likely did not know what the woman in the grotto was saying to her really.

What an inane waste of band width.

Knock your small self out!!


The proposition was not that Bernadette was poor and "slow", it was that the region was backwards and would not have heard of these newfangled doctrines.

While I don't see what poverty has to do with it (some of the greatest, and most intellegent saints of both the east and the west lived in poverty), the accusation that she was mentaly handicapped should serve one to spend a bit more time thinking about what she said (or were you saying that she must have been "slow" since she lived in a small village, and were not talking about her IQ, or lack thereof, which is what "slow" means).

My intention in my first reply was not to argue Lourdes was a fake, I simply argue the idea that it must be true because she said it only four years after it was officially proclaimed dogma. If you did not mis-speak and actually meant she was mentally slow, that raises even more questions in my mind.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 11:18:09 PM »

What an absurd response to the simple proposition that Bernadette was poor and slow and most likely did not know what the woman in the grotto was saying to her really.
Knowing wasn't brought up. Just the mere fact that she heard of the "Immaculate Concdeption."
The dogma was only defined four years before this and St Bernadette was very uneducated and would not have known it.
I'm not sure that it was just dogmaticly defined matters. It was a longstanding belief in the Catholic Church. She very likely had heard of it.
I think that's not quite a realistic assertion.  
She most asuredly heard of the dogma of the "Immaculate Conception." As for understanding it, the vast majority of the students in my parochial school in the Vatican's largest Archdiocese in a major world city (Chicago) couldn't explain it if their salvation depended on it: most confused it with the Virgin Birth.  This even though we had mass in honor of this innovation every year.  So a peasant up in the mountains not understanding it shortly after it was proclaimed doesn't mean a thing.

What an inane waste of band width.

Knock your small self out!!
As St. John of Damascus says "a small thing is not a small thing if it leads to something great": the IC is so pregnant with heresy that it has given birth to much mischief in the Vatican's theology.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 12:42:52 AM »

There is also the issue that even if she did see an apparition, what evidence do we have that it was a thing of God? From what I can see, quickly reading online, its entire veracity is based on the claim of the apparition that it was "the immaculate conception".
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 11:22:24 AM »

Knock yourselves out guys.  The little girl is said not to have known what she was hearing in advance of hearing it.  You don't need to believe any of it at all.  I do.  But that is because I choose to do so.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/68th-lourdes-miracle-approved/
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2011, 12:47:54 PM »

Knock yourselves out guys.  The little girl is said not to have known what she was hearing in advance of hearing it.  You don't need to believe any of it at all.  I do.  But that is because I choose to do so.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/68th-lourdes-miracle-approved/

II Tim. 3:5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid. 6 For of these sort are they who creep into houses and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires: 7 Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no farther: for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine...

You can believe anything you like. Just don't try to convince others of it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2011, 01:58:54 PM »


All I have to say is that this is not an apparition from God due to the fact that it seems that the Mother of God refers to herself as the "Immaculate Conception", which is an absolute falsehood. 

People are hearing what they wish to hear, and believing what they wish to believe, however, that does not make it true.

The Theotokos has always pointed to her Son as the Savior....she is "special" only because she agreed to do God's bidding and gave birth to Christ.

IF the so called Immaculate Conception was real....and Mary was "perfect", why wasn't she the Savior?

People also see the Virgin in potato chips, in stains on laundry room floors, etc.  Ridiculous.  Why do you look for signs?  Why?  Wasn't Christ's Resurrection enough?

...and Elijahmaria, I think you are a bit off base in telling other posters to "knock themselves out".  Why are you asking them to hurt themselves?  It's not a very mature response, and hardly helps to lend credibility to your arguments. 

Don't let a mere discussion steal your peace.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2011, 02:26:59 PM »

She most asuredly heard of the dogma of the "Immaculate Conception." As for understanding it, the vast majority of the students in my parochial school in the Vatican's largest Archdiocese in a major world city (Chicago) couldn't explain it if their salvation depended on it: most confused it with the Virgin Birth.  

This bears out my experience with nearly every RC in this city I know who went to a RC HS even or University.

Coming from a more snake handling background, I was surprised that the Bible kicking, three fingered, polyglossic, Hellfire and Brimstone preacher sometime combine wrestler from my youth knew more about the IC than all the RCs I met did.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 02:28:00 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2011, 02:35:10 PM »

IF the so called Immaculate Conception was real....and Mary was "perfect", why wasn't she the Savior?

...and Elijahmaria, I think you are a bit off base in telling other posters to "knock themselves out".  Why are you asking them to hurt themselves?  It's not a very mature response, and hardly helps to lend credibility to your arguments. 

Don't let a mere discussion steal your peace.


Certainly you believe and know that the Theotokos' conception, life, and death are celebrated within the Church in light of the Resurrection for sure, but also for the nature in which she was conceived, lived, and died.

Also, I don't mean to offend, but do you know "knock yourself out" is an English idiom? It is sorta ironic actually.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 02:36:49 PM »

Yes, I know "knock yourself out"....but, I'm not sure in what sense it was said...comically or seriously.

...you are most likely correct...and I misunderstood the context.

So...go ahead!  Knock yourself out!   Cheesy
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 02:38:13 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 03:11:41 PM »

Yes, I know "knock yourself out"....but, I'm not sure in what sense it was said...comically or seriously.

...you are most likely correct...and I misunderstood the context.

So...go ahead!  Knock yourself out!   Cheesy

 laugh  There ya go!!

It was said, in all seriousness, laced with irony, a double one if you can see it.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 03:14:16 PM »

Since I don't do what you are accusing here, be mindful, that you are the one who sounds hysterical to me...

Matters of perception matter in both directions in dialogue.


All I have to say is that this is not an apparition from God due to the fact that it seems that the Mother of God refers to herself as the "Immaculate Conception", which is an absolute falsehood. 

People are hearing what they wish to hear, and believing what they wish to believe, however, that does not make it true.

The Theotokos has always pointed to her Son as the Savior....she is "special" only because she agreed to do God's bidding and gave birth to Christ.

IF the so called Immaculate Conception was real....and Mary was "perfect", why wasn't she the Savior?

People also see the Virgin in potato chips, in stains on laundry room floors, etc.  Ridiculous.  Why do you look for signs?  Why?  Wasn't Christ's Resurrection enough?

...and Elijahmaria, I think you are a bit off base in telling other posters to "knock themselves out".  Why are you asking them to hurt themselves?  It's not a very mature response, and hardly helps to lend credibility to your arguments. 

Don't let a mere discussion steal your peace.



Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2011, 03:21:46 PM »


I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything...and I hope I'm not sounding hysterical.

Since the OP asked our opinions on Lourdes, I thought I would give mine...which is that it is not from God.

That's all.

I'll take a chill pill now, so that in my hysteria, I don't knock myself out.   Wink
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2011, 03:32:44 PM »


I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything...and I hope I'm not sounding hysterical.

Since the OP asked our opinions on Lourdes, I thought I would give mine...which is that it is not from God.

That's all.

I'll take a chill pill now, so that in my hysteria, I don't knock myself out.   Wink

I don't know if you are interested but perhaps the OP might be.

I do not follow apparitions too much.  None of them are part of my devotional life, but there are two that are not "strange" to me.  One is Lourdes and the other is Guadalupe.  I tend to think they are real and that they are sacred.

I do NOT use Lourdes to buttress my belief in the Immaculate Conception.  There are other things that do that for me in far more real terms.

I do NOT believe the value added stuff that Orthodox have to add to the teaching in order to knock it down.  Rather I believe what my Church teaches me about the teaching of the conception of the mother of God without the stain of Original Sin.

M.
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,242


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2011, 03:55:42 PM »

I will just weigh in to say that the Sisters of Charity have operated a Catholic hospital in my home town which is dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes. While as an Orthodox Christian I do not accept the Catholic church's 'take' on the original Lourdes Marian appearance, I will not say that it was not of God.

I believe that because over the fifty years that my father and brother have served my community as Orthodox priests, that the kindness,love and charity that the Sisters and the modern Catholic holding company that operates the hospital today are iconic as bearing Christian witness in the sense of how the Sisters and the hospital have served this community - Catholic faithful and all else who need its services, whether they can pay or not. There is a spiritual component there that simply does not exist in the medically equally competent secular hospitals that also serve my region.

As to Lourdes' relationship to the IC, well, the time of the proclamation of the IC dogma and the first reporting of the apparition are relatively close in time historically and it is not being too cynical to think that there were those in Rome who may have seized the opportunity to create a linkage between what Bernadette and other witnessed and their own agenda. I don't know and frankly, it doesn't matter to me or shake my belief in the teachings of our Church.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 03:59:54 PM »


With all due respect, just because the Sisters of Charity were helpful doesn't mean that the apparition at Lourdes is real.

I know many Muslims who are caring and generous to a fault, however, that doesn't make Islam a faith from God.  Their personal actions, reflect well upon them, but, not on the faith they hold.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2011, 04:03:05 PM »


With all due respect, just because the Sisters of Charity were helpful doesn't mean that the apparition at Lourdes is real.

I know many Muslims who are caring and generous to a fault, however, that doesn't make Islam a faith from God.  Their personal actions, reflect well upon them, but, not on the faith they hold.

Oh boy . . .
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2011, 04:08:57 PM »


What?  What did I say wrong?

Tell me....I want to know...seriously.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2011, 04:45:02 PM »

There is also the issue that even if she did see an apparition, what evidence do we have that it was a thing of God? From what I can see, quickly reading online, its entire veracity is based on the claim of the apparition that it was "the immaculate conception".
As tempting as it is to take the word of her teachers, priest and parents who said they had never mentioned the Immaculate Conception to her-i.e. FAILED in their duty to her as far as religious instruction was concerned as defined by the Vatican-I find it odd that her aunt Bernarde was a life long member of the "Childeren of Mary," founded the decade before on with the "miraculous medal" of Catherine Laboure bearing the image of the Blessed Virgin with the inscription "O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee," and the IC never came up (particularly as the "miraculous medal" cult played its part in getting the Vatican definition issued for the IC).  Bernadette was not allowed to join because of her poverty (!) but was let in after her "visions."

I've also read conflicting reports of what the vision did when dowsed with Holy Water, either bowing its head or disappearing.  Bernadette, I have read, did not approve of the statue made to represent what she saw.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2011, 04:55:37 PM »


What?  What did I say wrong?

Tell me....I want to know...seriously.

I don't know whether orthonorm meant that you'd said something wrong (or perhaps just opened a can of worms), but fwiw, your words reminded me of a passage in St. Gregory the Theologian. Speaking of those who denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit, he said: "We admire your life, but we do not altogether approve your doctrine." The situation was quite different, but what brought it to mind was the idea that, while it is a good thing to live piously, that doesn't necessarily mean that what you believe is correct.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 04:56:12 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2011, 09:23:41 PM »

Knock yourselves out guys.  The little girl is said not to have known what she was hearing in advance of hearing it.  You don't need to believe any of it at all.  I do.  But that is because I choose to do so.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/68th-lourdes-miracle-approved/

Exactly, we don't have to believe any of it, and you are free to believe it, but when you come around arguing shoddy history as proof of it, then your argument is wrong (whether or not you are in your opinion, is a different matter).
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2011, 09:30:52 PM »

Knock yourselves out guys.  The little girl is said not to have known what she was hearing in advance of hearing it.  You don't need to believe any of it at all.  I do.  But that is because I choose to do so.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/68th-lourdes-miracle-approved/

Exactly, we don't have to believe any of it, and you are free to believe it, but when you come around arguing shoddy history as proof of it, then your argument is wrong (whether or not you are in your opinion, is a different matter).

That entire southern region in France is still fraught with the remnants of both the Albigensian heresy and also the influence of the Huguenots.   So if those influences sustain till this day and impact the faith of the local parishes there, it is probably safe to conjecture that it would not have skipped a few generations just so you could support your own claim... Smiley
Logged

Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 11:45:01 PM »

Knock yourselves out guys.  The little girl is said not to have known what she was hearing in advance of hearing it.  You don't need to believe any of it at all.  I do.  But that is because I choose to do so.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/68th-lourdes-miracle-approved/

Exactly, we don't have to believe any of it, and you are free to believe it, but when you come around arguing shoddy history as proof of it, then your argument is wrong (whether or not you are in your opinion, is a different matter).

That entire southern region in France is still fraught with the remnants of both the Albigensian heresy and also the influence of the Huguenots.   So if those influences sustain till this day and impact the faith of the local parishes there, it is probably safe to conjecture that it would not have skipped a few generations just so you could support your own claim... Smiley
Oh? What evidence is there of Albigensians in the area? What's the population of Calvinists in the area, and why do those influences preclude people knowing what the IC is? From what I've read the Occitanian region is almost entirely Catholic.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,182


WWW
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 01:06:35 AM »

Altitude sickness can produce hallucinations - even at altitudes that the body acclimates itself to.

For example, I was at Loveland Pass in December 2007 (12,000' in elevation).  I felt fine when I left my friend's car.  As I walked up a hill to higher ground, I started experiencing shortness of breath and dizziness after approximately 100 foot change in elevation.  I immediately came back down to the road surface.

So St. Bernadette was doing her chores in southern France; got a little woozy and saw visions of Mary.

Besides, most French do not believe in God.   Wink
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 01:20:12 AM »

What Holy Orthodoxy Has to Say About these Marian Apparitions.... police


The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion.... Grin

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 01:21:11 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 01:34:39 AM »

What Holy Orthodoxy Has to Say About these Marian Apparitions.... police


The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion.... Grin

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

That's a rather long article, can you give a summation? Also, does it mention/deal with the fact that there have been Marian apparitions in Orthodox history (e.g. in Constantinople in 911)
Logged
blackincense
Simple Incense Maker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 44


Holy St. Abo, the Perfumer of Bagdad


WWW
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2011, 01:58:18 AM »

To answer the original question:

I happened upon Lourdes years ago when I was a teenager in the 80's, homeless in Europe.  I ended up there quite by happy accident.  I was not a Christian of any kind in those days.  I visited the shrine, asked lots of questions and have read a great deal about it over the years because of my personal accidental visit there.  Here is what I think, which is what you asked for:

I do not know if Mary appeared to Bernadette, and I plan to ask her about it someday.   Wink

Nonetheless, here is what I experienced at Lourdes:

There were a great many people, pushing and shoving.  Not out of malice but out of poor desperation.  There was a lot of jostling for position at the shrine and many handicapped people were pushed aside.  Nonetheless, there were  also a great many kind people at the shrine who helped these handicapped, and ill people acheive their efforts to go to the shrine and to pray there.  

I did not see anything visionary or miraculous except this:  I saw a great many kind, and lovely devout people who assisted the poor, fed the hungry, and held the weak, and ministered to the sick.  Whenever I see this, I know I see Jesus.

I am now a baptised Orthodox Christian and of course, I must follow what my church teaches which is mainly that such Marian apparitions are to be heavily questioned and never believed "on faith" but to be investigated thoroughly by theologians, bishops, etc.  I cannot say that I believe that Mary appeared to Bernadette.  In fact, I have to say that I personally rather doubt it.  


As an aside, since I was homeless and suffering a bit myself, I said a little prayer there at the shrine when it FIN ALLY became my turn.  My prayer was answered, and I was not even a Christian.

Additionally, the experience weighted heavily on me years later, when I was seriously considering a conversion to Christianity.  God can and does use anything and everything to bring us to Himself.  
I was baptized into the Orthodox Church and have never looked back or regretted any of my journey, including my visit to Lourdes.  All things serve to bring us closer to God, when we allow Him to guide our steps.
But I do believe that God is everywhere, and fills all things, including Lourdes and that of course, He may be present there, and may be working miracles there, in His grace and mercy.  Certainly, when we see love in Christian people, we can know that they are "faithful" of some kind and that God is certainly gracious to that.  I absolutely know that I saw many handicapped and ill people gently helped to the water, gently bathed, gently and kindly treated by many loving Catholic Christians.  Surely, there is a miracle in that in itself, especially considering the state of the world today, since 1917 where nihilism and cynicism rule and apply to every and all situations.   There is such a lack of love in any part of the world today, that any act of love is a miracle in itself.

"In the last days, all men will go mad.  And when they meet someone who is not mad, they will say 'he is mad! for he is not like us!"
--Abba Antony

God bless you.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 02:08:13 AM by blackincense » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,242


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 11:25:42 AM »


With all due respect, just because the Sisters of Charity were helpful doesn't mean that the apparition at Lourdes is real.

I know many Muslims who are caring and generous to a fault, however, that doesn't make Islam a faith from God.  Their personal actions, reflect well upon them, but, not on the faith they hold.




I am not saying that the apparitions as reported and 'believed' are real. However, my point is that the work of God can occur in many manifestations and much good has come from the pious belief of those who honor St. Bernadette. For that reason I can not categorically state that what, if anything, happened there was not of God. Blackincense's post is a personal testimony to my point.

I guess that I am more open minded than many. For example, over the years, when Miracle Working Icons have been visiting our Orthodox churches, I have witnessed countless faithful and pious people known to me to be Roman or Greek Catholics who have attended the services, venerated the Icons and sought the intercession and prayers of the Saint or the Virgin Mary as the case may be. I don't believe that their prayers are spurned or deemed not to be 'of God.' Do I believe that they posses the fullness of Faith? Of course not, but....as to how God chooses to deal with them, I shall not speculate and leave that to His infinite mercy and wisdom.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 11:32:15 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2011, 11:36:29 AM »


My only fear with all this is the "Mariology" that comes of it.

I'm not saying the Theotokos doesn't appear to people, or intervene on our behalfs - Church of Blachernae is a great example.

I'm just worried that folks don't miss the forest for the trees.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,242


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2011, 11:59:59 AM »


My only fear with all this is the "Mariology" that comes of it.

I'm not saying the Theotokos doesn't appear to people, or intervene on our behalfs - Church of Blachernae is a great example.

I'm just worried that folks don't miss the forest for the trees.

Which is why we Orthodox venerate the most Holy Theotokas and seek her intercession,but reject the cult-like 'Mariology' that permeates some within the Roman Church. We should pray that the Church of Rome heed those of her theologians and scholars who prefer the Orthodox approach to the Virgin and reject the emotional apparition view that became popular among a segment of her faithful in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 12:18:37 PM »




No ! Holy Orthodoxy speaks For me ,I  Don't Know enough to speak for Holy Orthodoxy ,i just follow it's teaching to the best of my ability....If it's say's there Bad and  Demonic i won't argue with that.......Some Holy Orthodox Saints were Almost themself's decieved by Demonic Apparitions Masquerading as Jesus or Mary ........






What Holy Orthodoxy Has to Say About these Marian Apparitions.... police


The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion.... Grin

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

That's a rather long article, can you give a summation? Also, does it mention/deal with the fact that there have been Marian apparitions in Orthodox history (e.g. in Constantinople in 911)
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 12:25:35 PM »


My only fear with all this is the "Mariology" that comes of it.

I'm not saying the Theotokos doesn't appear to people, or intervene on our behalfs - Church of Blachernae is a great example.

I'm just worried that folks don't miss the forest for the trees.
or worse yet, say to wood "You gave me birth." Jeremiah 2:27.

I'm not worried about Mariology, but the Mariolatry concerns me greatly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »

No ! Holy Orthodoxy speaks For me ,I  Don't Know enough to speak for Holy Orthodoxy ,i just follow it's teaching to the best of my ability....If it's say's there Bad and  Demonic i won't argue with that.......Some Holy Orthodox Saints were Almost themself's decieved by Demonic Apparitions Masquerading as Jesus or Mary ........

I wasn't aware that Miriam spoke for Orthodoxy.  police
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,242


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 12:31:35 PM »


My only fear with all this is the "Mariology" that comes of it.

I'm not saying the Theotokos doesn't appear to people, or intervene on our behalfs - Church of Blachernae is a great example.

I'm just worried that folks don't miss the forest for the trees.
or worse yet, say to wood "You gave me birth." Jeremiah 2:27.

I'm not worried about Mariology, but the Mariolatry concerns me greatly.

Quite right, an important distinction. Precision in language can be lost in our haste to post! Thanks.
Logged
Scotty
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Portland
Posts: 86



« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2011, 10:56:19 PM »

What Holy Orthodoxy Has to Say About these Marian Apparitions.... police


The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion.... Grin

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

Orthodoxinfo.com = Holy Orthodoxy?  LOL
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,228



« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 12:48:33 AM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 04:18:15 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.
Logged
Scotty
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Portland
Posts: 86



« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 05:07:38 PM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 09:41:40 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.
Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.
I'm not sure that is even technically correct anymore, ever since their Supreme Pontiff John Paul II put "Divine Mercy" on the "Universal Calendar," based on the visions of Sr. Faustina (whose visions, as these things go, are pretty benign and not terribly unorthodox).  Then there is that dedication of the world/Russia to "the immaculate heart of Mary," based on Fatima and several underlying "visions."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2011, 06:05:57 PM »



I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,189


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2011, 09:35:12 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2011, 11:28:50 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,228



« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 11:52:49 PM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,109


« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2011, 12:09:23 AM »

It was my experience too, Andrew. Very distressing.
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »

There was much debate about this subject at a RC forum I sometimes frequent, just in general not the actual apparition itself. Personally, I do not believe it (I never think about RC apparitions anyway) and it makes me wonder why any Orthodox would. She does not sound like the Theotokos we see in St. Luke's Gospel at the Annunciation or at the Wedding of Cana. I did appreciate the post from blackincense, however. I do believe, if it is indeed a false apparition, God can still bring good from it. Smiley

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked

In Christ,
Andrew
That's not been my experience. I have been Catholic since 2007 and I have never once heard the Marian apparitions brought up at Mass. If they are really so important to us as you say then I would think I would have heard them referenced in a homily by now.

I was a Catholic for 34 years and have been to countless Masses in dozens of states and in two countries (well, one, really, but Quebec really is like being in another country).  I can count on one hand how many times Confession was referenced in a homily, even during Lent, from the time I was able to understand what the priest was saying until present.  I can say this with conviction because I'm one of the few people who actually likes listening to priests give homilies (even boring ones) and I happen to believe that Confession is not preached enough so my ears perk up on the incredibly rare times I've heard it.

I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

Please be aware that I agree with you that it's not technically required for Catholics to believe in private revelations, but its pretty hard to not think that, for all practical purposes, belief in approved apparitions is not just approved but encouraged.

I can count on one hand how many times I heard a homiy p
I'm sure it is something that varies from parish to parish, pastor to pastor, and region to region. When I went through the RCIA process in 2006 & 2007 we seemed to have a director of religious education that was not a very big fan of any of the Marian apparitions, so we tended not to talk about them much. Even when we did talk about them, he made sure to always emphasize that none of us are in any way required to believe in them even though they are technically "approved" by the Church.

The reason why private revelations have never been a stumbling block for me is because, by their very nature, private revelations never reveal anything totally new. So, for instance, St. Faustina's divine mercy experience didn't really reveal anything new, it just provided another devotion to renew the Church as it continues to meditate on the loving and merciful nature of Christ (and in my opinion a good devotion...I love the divine mercy chaplet).
Logged
Scotty
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Portland
Posts: 86



« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2011, 07:48:29 AM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Oh no worries, I was just getting it out there, and yes from experience (mine too) you are absolutely right.

Another topic entirely, but have the Apparitions of Zeitoun been discussed on OC.net?  I don't know much about it, but its the only non-Catholic Marian apparition I've heard of.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,228



« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2011, 08:31:07 AM »

From my experience, however, RCs put A LOT of stock in their apparitions. The official teaching from what I recall is that the faithful can be agnostic to them, but Lord help you if you as a RC say you don't believe in Fatima, Lourdes or any other Marian apparition!  Shocked


Catholics are not required believe any private revelation, even those which are approved by Rome.

I honestly do not know much about Lourdes.  For whatever reason the thought of apparitions has always turned me off (gasp).
Exactly what I said. Smiley RC faithful can be agnostic to their apparitions according to your church's teaching. However, from my experience it was a different story. If I did not believe an apparition occured, I was lambasted by my coreligionists. Priests in homilies at my former RC university were also adamant about adhering to them and their messages as well. Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

I don't recall saying this is the way it is across the board. Maybe in the future I should be more clear about it being from my experiences. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Oh no worries, I was just getting it out there, and yes from experience (mine too) you are absolutely right.

Another topic entirely, but have the Apparitions of Zeitoun been discussed on OC.net?  I don't know much about it, but its the only non-Catholic Marian apparition I've heard of.
I'm not sure exactly. I haven't seen them pop up lately, but I think in the EO-OO subforum there may have been in the past.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2011, 09:46:47 AM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.

That kind of rigidity, and I am assuming it was rigidity, is very familiar to me.  On occasion it does take heroic acts of virtue to remain in any Church.  So much rides on one man...one priest...one moment in time [and I recognize those "moments" can last for years].  I won't pry, but I will pray for interior peace for her...and you.  That circumstance cannot help having an effect on you.  Knowing all the right answers, theoretically, does not always heal the person in actuality.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,189


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2011, 11:46:52 AM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
Really? Because my life and experience are not that of Shultz? Izzy, sometimes you make strange statements.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,242


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2011, 12:00:04 PM »

Yes, he was quite the Fatima priest and, IIRC, was the editor of a newsletter.  He was not the pastor but a very old "retired" priest in the local indult community who was more active than the pastor of this particular parish who was an incredibly nice and wonderful priest.  The Fatima priest in question is also not one of my favorite people as he is one of the primary reasons my wife is not a practicing Catholic, but that's another tale for another time.

That kind of rigidity, and I am assuming it was rigidity, is very familiar to me.  On occasion it does take heroic acts of virtue to remain in any Church.  So much rides on one man...one priest...one moment in time [and I recognize those "moments" can last for years].  I won't pry, but I will pray for interior peace for her...and you.  That circumstance cannot help having an effect on you.  Knowing all the right answers, theoretically, does not always heal the person in actuality.

Fear not as that type of rigidity (obviously I don't mean Fatima,but in general terms)  is hardly unique to the Church of Rome nor is its presence entirely absent within Orthodoxy. I agree that such 'pastors' do much harm to the faith of many. We have to remember that while the Church is 'of God' it is run by mere mortal men.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2011, 04:15:25 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Scotty
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Portland
Posts: 86



« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.

Not all all.  Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because the messages Mary allegedly gave in it; "all religions are dear to Jesus."
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »

Garabandal and Medjugorje come to mind as the most pushed by religious orders on campus, but Lourdes and Fatima had their share of promoters too.

Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because it was not approved by the Vatican.

Not all all.  Traditional Catholics consider Medjugorie a devilish apparition because the messages Mary allegedly gave in it; "all religions are dear to Jesus."

Yeah, that's been my experience.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2011, 06:33:26 PM »


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.

How strange. I have been Catholic for nearly thirty years (craddle Catholic) and I have never heard a sermon in which a Marian Apparition was the main idea/theme. At most, occassionally (not even every year) I will hear Lourdes mentioned on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, but even then, most years it is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, it is not the main topic of the homily.

OH, and BTW, my pastor often finds any excuse to preach on confession. One year his homily began, "Today is the Feast of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a carptenter and carpenters go to confession..."  Smiley


I can, however, tell you about the one priest who preached the importance of Fatima in every single sermon he ever gave, or at least the ninety or so sermons I heard him give between 2000 and 2003 when I attended his church.



You got yourself a Fatima Priest once...

I may have 15-20 years on you and I've heard more about weeping icons than Marian apparitions....In fact I have never heard a homily on any Marian apparition...ever.

So the Church proposes and the clergy disposes...That should sound somewhat familiar even to Orthodox believers.
I'm beginning to see similiarity with Obamas recollection of the sermons he heard by Rev. Wright for all those decades.  I listen to the sermon, I just assUme everyone does.
Really? Because my life and experience are not that of Shultz? Izzy, sometimes you make strange statements.
If you are paying attention during the homily at your parish, and accurately representing it here, I can turn on EWTN any day and see that you go to an odd parish. Any day.

So, what does your parish do the Sunday following Easter, since you don't observe the Sunday of Divine Mercy?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Frederic
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholicism > Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 88


St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2012, 01:26:36 AM »

Mary appeared to St Bernadette and said "I am the Immaculate Conception"

There is a small controversy about the sentence "I am the Immaculate Conception" in English. Some believe it is incorrect and should read "I am the Immaculate Conceived". I think the first version is not totally incorrect but I prefer the second version.

This point is slightly off topic since the sentence was originally pronounced in Gascon language.
Logged

«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
Tags: apparitions 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.278 seconds with 96 queries.