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Author Topic: How is the "Liturgy of St. Gregory" Celebrated with an Iconostasis?  (Read 2133 times) Average Rating: 0
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jordanz
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« on: April 02, 2011, 09:49:31 PM »

How does a WRO priest say the Tridentine Mass with Orthodox modifications (aka "Liturgy of St. Gregory") in a Byzantine-style church with an iconostasis?

Traditional Catholics customarily leave the altar rail doors closed for the entire length of Low Mass.  Sometimes the doors are already closed before the Mass.  In that case, the priest and server(s) enter from the sacristy door.  When the priest and server(s) process through the church and into the sanctuary through the altar rails, a server closes the doors while the priest osculates the altar and places the chalice on it.  Then the priest and server(s) return to the base of the altar and recite the Judica me.

During High and Solemn Mass the rail doors are closed from the Sanctus to the close of Mass.  In some places, the doors are opened at the priest's communion if another cleric must commune people outside the altar rail.

How are the icon screen doors used when a WRO priest says Mass behind an icon screen?  Are the doors simply left open for the entire Mass?  Or, are the doors opened and closed according to the Roman custom or a unique custom?

I would suspect that communicants at a Tridentine Mass in a Byzantine-style church would stand to receive the Eucharist.  Do communicants kneel for the Eucharist in WRO parishes that are furnished in the Western style (no icon screen, fully exposed sanctuary, altar rails installed?)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 09:52:06 PM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 01:12:09 AM »

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Unless the Royal Doors are shorter(about waist hight as opposed to the larger doors of the Russian tradition) I would assume they would stay open because otherwise the faithful would not be able to see the elevation of the Holy things after the consecration.

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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 01:18:51 AM »

Unless the Royal Doors are shorter(about waist hight as opposed to the larger doors of the Russian tradition) I would assume they would stay open because otherwise the faithful would not be able to see the elevation of the Holy things after the consecration.

I strongly suspect that the elevations at the Consecration reached their current rubrical significance after the Great Schism.  Trent did not specify the height of the elevations.  Even today some Roman priests do not elevate the Host and Chalice above their heads, either because of physical disability or habit.  The congregation hears the bells but does not see the Host or Chalice.  While a clear elevation is desirable, Rome has never held that a clear elevation is necessary for a valid and licit Sacrifice.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 01:20:20 AM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 01:30:42 AM »

How does a WRO priest say the Tridentine Mass with Orthodox modifications (aka "Liturgy of St. Gregory") in a Byzantine-style church with an iconostasis?

Traditional Catholics customarily leave the altar rail doors closed for the entire length of Low Mass.  Sometimes the doors are already closed before the Mass.  In that case, the priest and server(s) enter from the sacristy door.  When the priest and server(s) process through the church and into the sanctuary through the altar rails, a server closes the doors while the priest osculates the altar and places the chalice on it.  Then the priest and server(s) return to the base of the altar and recite the Judica me.

During High and Solemn Mass the rail doors are closed from the Sanctus to the close of Mass.  In some places, the doors are opened at the priest's communion if another cleric must commune people outside the altar rail.

How are the icon screen doors used when a WRO priest says Mass behind an icon screen?  Are the doors simply left open for the entire Mass?  Or, are the doors opened and closed according to the Roman custom or a unique custom?

I would suspect that communicants at a Tridentine Mass in a Byzantine-style church would stand to receive the Eucharist.  Do communicants kneel for the Eucharist in WRO parishes that are furnished in the Western style (no icon screen, fully exposed sanctuary, altar rails installed?)

I have visited the WRO parish of St. Michael in Whittier, California.

The style of the church is Spanish and inside it resembles a Catholic Church as they do not have an iconostasis.
The priest faces the altar as in the Tridentine Mass, and the people kneel at the Communion Rail when receiving Holy Communion.

I hope this helps.

The best answer for your question is to visit a WRO parish or talk with an Orthodox Priest who ministers to WRO.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 01:32:27 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 02:15:34 AM »

Yes, it seems some WRO don't even have an iconostasis, strictly speaking...
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 02:35:54 AM »

The best answer for your question is to visit a WRO parish or talk with an Orthodox Priest who ministers to WRO.

Yes, though I'm afraid I'll run into a vagans rather than a "real deal" canonical priest.

Yes, it seems some WRO don't even have an iconostasis, strictly speaking...


The local Anglo-Catholic parish here has a very imposing rood screen.  The screen has lattice-work doors quite similar to Holy Doors on an iconstasis.  The lattice doors are left open for Mass, and the altar rail is opened and closed instead.  The opening and closing of the altar rail is done according to the Roman custom.

I could see a WRO parish having a rood screen.  A rood screen is not an iconostasis.  A rood screen divides chancel from nave but does not support icons.
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 05:08:25 AM »

How does a WRO priest say the Tridentine Mass with Orthodox modifications (aka "Liturgy of St. Gregory") in a Byzantine-style church with an iconostasis?

Like this:





Of course, during the Byzantine rite services they use the regular altar:



St. Benedict Orthodox Church, a bi-ritual ROCOR's parish.
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 06:26:22 AM »

What structure would the WR sanctuary take if the worshipers had their own building and enough resources to prepare it completely according to the established WRO order?
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2011, 07:40:10 AM »

What structure would the WR sanctuary take if the worshipers had their own building and enough resources to prepare it completely according to the established WRO order?


Well, when I belonged to an Antiochian Western Rite parish 15 years ago, the interior of the church building looked just like a traditional Roman Catholic or Anglo-Catholic Church inside.  I don't have any pictures, but I remember the following:

1. Tabernacle front and center on the altar
2. A crucifix and six candles
3. Vigil light near the tabernacle
4. Missal and missal stand
5. Framed Mass prayers on the altar (altar cards)
6. An altar rail where the communicants knelt to receive the Eucharist
7. The priest wore Western Mass Vestments and a biretta.
8. The entire Mass was chanted "High Mass" style on Sundays.
9. Sunday Mass began with the sprinkling of holy water and the singing of the "Asperges"

The only things we didn't have that one would usually see in a Roman Catholic Church were statues of the BVM and St. Joseph on each side of the altar.
Our particular parish did have icons of our Lord and our Lady in those respective positions.

I hope that explanation helps.
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 01:56:38 PM »

Like this:

At first I thought, "why bother putting a portable altar in front of the Doors?"

And then I remembered that for the Orthodox an altar can only be used once a day. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 03:13:37 PM »

I could see a WRO parish having a rood screen.

AWRV St. Benedict Orthodox Church in Wichita Falls have one.

A rood screen is not an iconostasis.  A rood screen divides chancel from nave but does not support icons.

Some of rood screens do have icons/painting on them (e.g.: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/St_Botolph%27s_church_-_rood_screen_detail_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1075206.jpg, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/T%C3%B8nder_Kristkirke_-_Lettner_3.jpg).

When a WR Liturgy is celebrated in a Byzantine rite church, the iconostasis can be used either as a rood screen (http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Mass-June-2009c.jpg) or as a reredos (http://orthodoxwesternrite.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/pentecost.jpg).
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 05:17:49 PM »

Do any Western Rite parishes use statues or do they all use Icons regardless of whether they celebrate the Western Rite or not?
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 05:22:33 PM »

Some do use.
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2011, 05:32:23 PM »

Like this:

At first I thought, "why bother putting a portable altar in front of the Doors?"

And then I remembered that for the Orthodox an altar can only be used once a day.  

I don't think that's the reason. According to their service schedule they seem to celebrate different rites on different days.

I'm a little confused too. Free-standing altar is genuinely Western and Orthodox tradition so there's no reason to avoid the regular altar. Maybe their WRO folks consists of former Protestants and RCs who are more familiar with altar against the wall setting so celebrating with a "hidden" altar behind an iconostasis feels like a byzantisation.
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »

I'm a little confused too. Free-standing altar is genuinely Western and Orthodox tradition so there's no reason to avoid the regular altar. Maybe their WRO folks consists of former Protestants and RCs who are more familiar with altar against the wall setting so celebrating with a "hidden" altar behind an iconostasis feels like a byzantisation.

I'm confused as well.  While there are many Eastern Catholic priests that are bi-ritual, and I know of one who says both the Tridentine Mass in RC churches and the Divine Liturgy at an EC church, usually Christians in union with Rome have a "one church/one liturgy" policy. It seems that WRO Masses are often said in Byzantine Orthodox churches.  I also don't see what's wrong with saying a Western liturgy at the main altar behind the iconostasis.  Wouldn't bother me, even if a deacon closed the royal doors at the Sanctus and opened them again at the Our Father.

Some Eastern Catholic rightfully complain about Tridentine RC refugees that go to Divine Liturgy and not only insult Byzantine rituals, but also demand certain Western customs that are inappropriate for Byzantines.  Some complain when the doors are closed for the anaphora; other insist on receiving the Eucharist kneeling (Standing for Holy Communion is Novus Ordo!) ;-) 

Because of this I wouldn't discount your observation.  Nevertheless, how many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy have come to love the Divine Liturgy?  I could see some former Lefebvrists have difficulties with iconostases, receiving communion from the Chalice, etc.  Also, traditional Catholics have a strong cultural identification with kneeling, as many Novus Ordo Masses have done away with kneeling for the Canon and the priest's communion/Ecce Agnus Dei.  For some hardcore trads, kneeling is a defiance of the reformed Roman liturgy.   
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 08:05:31 PM »

Someone may have already brought this up, but the tridentene mass is distinct from the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  The Tridentene mass is that
of Pope St. Pius V dating from July 14, 1570 via apostolic constitution Quo Primum and named after the council of Trent.  The Liturgy (Mass) of St. Gregory predates it by many centuries.   
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 08:36:32 PM »

I agree with Father.

In a study of the Liturgies while at a Catholic university, I was taught that the ancient Mass of St. Gregory probably contained the Trisagion as the Trisagion was in the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory and in the Good Friday Liturgy. Notably, the Catholic Good Friday Liturgy (a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy) contained the Trisagion in Greek and Latin in the 1962 missal, but this hymn was no longer used in the later revisions of the Holy Week Services. Has this situation changed recently now that Sister Faustina was canonized?

The Trisagion is not part of the Tridentine Latin Mass approved by Pope Pius V, who was a Dominican.
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 08:43:19 PM »

Quote from: Alpo on Today at 01:32:23 PM

Quote

Because of this I wouldn't discount your observation.  Nevertheless, how many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy have come to love the Divine Liturgy?  I could see some former Lefebvrists have difficulties with iconostases, receiving communion from the Chalice, etc.  Also, traditional Catholics have a strong cultural identification with kneeling, as many Novus Ordo Masses have done away with kneeling for the Canon and the priest's communion/Ecce Agnus Dei.  For some hardcore trads, kneeling is a defiance of the reformed Roman liturgy.   

In the WRO Antiochian parish in Whittier, California, the parishioners kneel through most of the Mass.

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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 08:48:00 PM »


I'm confused as well.  While there are many Eastern Catholic priests that are bi-ritual, and I know of one who says both the Tridentine Mass in RC churches and the Divine Liturgy at an EC church, usually Christians in union with Rome have a "one church/one liturgy" policy. It seems that WRO Masses are often said in Byzantine Orthodox churches.  I also don't see what's wrong with saying a Western liturgy at the main altar behind the iconostasis.  Wouldn't bother me, even if a deacon closed the royal doors at the Sanctus and opened them again at the Our Father.

Some Eastern Catholic rightfully complain about Tridentine RC refugees that go to Divine Liturgy and not only insult Byzantine rituals, but also demand certain Western customs that are inappropriate for Byzantines.  Some complain when the doors are closed for the anaphora; other insist on receiving the Eucharist kneeling (Standing for Holy Communion is Novus Ordo!) ;-)  

Because of this I wouldn't discount your observation.  Nevertheless, how many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy have come to love the Divine Liturgy?  I could see some former Lefebvrists have difficulties with iconostases, receiving communion from the Chalice, etc.  Also, traditional Catholics have a strong cultural identification with kneeling, as many Novus Ordo Masses have done away with kneeling for the Canon and the priest's communion/Ecce Agnus Dei.  For some hardcore trads, kneeling is a defiance of the reformed Roman liturgy.  


I also know of a Catholic priest who celebrates the Tridentine Latin Mass, but who has Biritual privileges and will fill in for Byzantine Catholic Priests when they are on vacation or on sick leave. This priest does not demand any latinizations whatsoever. In fact, he is very careful, and reminds people "When in Rome, do as the Romans, but when in Byzantine churches follow their lead."
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 11:08:40 PM »

Someone may have already brought this up, but the tridentene mass is distinct from the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  The Tridentene mass is that
of Pope St. Pius V dating from July 14, 1570 via apostolic constitution Quo Primum and named after the council of Trent.  The Liturgy (Mass) of St. Gregory predates it by many centuries.   

Father, do you have a reliable link to this liturgy?  The Liturgy of St. Gregory Mass Ordinaries I have read online are almost identical to the Tridentine ordo, save for a Byzantine epiclesis after the simili modo.  I can't find a Latin recension of the Liturgy of St. Gregory online, so I can't make a true comparison of the Tridentine ordo and the St Gregory Ordo.  In the Roman Church, the Missale Romanum does not officially exist in modern vernacular translation.  There was a 16th century Church Slavonic translation of the Tridentine rites for the Czechs, Slovaks, and Croatians, but it is now an extinct translation.

In the WRO Antiochian parish in Whittier, California, the parishioners kneel through most of the Mass.

It is indeed the custom to kneel throughout all of Low Mass save the Gospel and sermon, if one is preached.  Standing, sitting, and kneeling are all permitted at high and solemn Mass.  The WRO is free, however, to deviate from the Roman rubrics and kneel through High Mass, should they prefer.  Anglo-Catholics who follow Tridentine ceremonial also tend to kneel more than Roman Tridentines.

I agree with Father.

In a study of the Liturgies while at a Catholic university, I was taught that the ancient Mass of St. Gregory probably contained the Trisagion as the Trisagion was in the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory and in the Good Friday Liturgy. Notably, the Catholic Good Friday Liturgy (a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy) contained the Trisagion in Greek and Latin in the 1962 missal, but this hymn was no longer used in the later revisions of the Holy Week Services. Has this situation changed recently now that Sister Faustina was canonized?

The Trisagion is not part of the Tridentine Latin Mass approved by Pope Pius V, who was a Dominican.

The Trisagion is still in Latin and Greek in the typical edition of the reformed liturgy.  Almost no one, save for the Pope, uses the reformed typical Latin presanctified Good Friday liturgy.  Usually the Good Friday presanctified is either celebrated according to the reformed liturgy and in the vernacular, or celebrated in the Tridentine rite.
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 11:09:45 PM »

Someone may have already brought this up, but the tridentene mass is distinct from the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  The Tridentene mass is that
of Pope St. Pius V dating from July 14, 1570 via apostolic constitution Quo Primum and named after the council of Trent.  The Liturgy (Mass) of St. Gregory predates it by many centuries.   

Father, do you have a reliable link to this liturgy?  The Liturgy of St. Gregory Mass Ordinaries I have read online are almost identical to the Tridentine ordo, save for a Byzantine epiclesis after the simili modo.  I can't find a Latin recension of the Liturgy of St. Gregory online, so I can't make a true comparison of the Tridentine ordo and the St Gregory Ordo.  In the Roman Church, Missale Romanum 1962 does not officially exist outside of the typical Latin text.  There was a 16th century Church Slavonic translation of the Tridentine rites for the Czechs, Slovaks, and Croatians, but it is now an extinct translation.

In the WRO Antiochian parish in Whittier, California, the parishioners kneel through most of the Mass.

It is indeed the custom to kneel throughout all of Low Mass save the Gospel and sermon, if one is preached.  Standing, sitting, and kneeling are all permitted at high and solemn Mass.  The WRO is free, however, to deviate from the Roman rubrics and kneel through High Mass, should they prefer.  Anglo-Catholics who follow Tridentine ceremonial also tend to kneel more than Roman Tridentines.

I agree with Father.

In a study of the Liturgies while at a Catholic university, I was taught that the ancient Mass of St. Gregory probably contained the Trisagion as the Trisagion was in the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory and in the Good Friday Liturgy. Notably, the Catholic Good Friday Liturgy (a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy) contained the Trisagion in Greek and Latin in the 1962 missal, but this hymn was no longer used in the later revisions of the Holy Week Services. Has this situation changed recently now that Sister Faustina was canonized?

The Trisagion is not part of the Tridentine Latin Mass approved by Pope Pius V, who was a Dominican.

The Trisagion is still in Latin and Greek in the typical edition of the reformed liturgy.  Almost no one, save for the Pope, uses the reformed typical Latin presanctified Good Friday liturgy.  Usually the Good Friday presanctified is either celebrated according to the reformed liturgy and in the vernacular, or celebrated in the Tridentine rite.
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 11:27:12 PM »

I apologize for the dupe above.

Someone may have already brought this up, but the tridentene mass is distinct from the Liturgy of St. Gregory.  The Tridentene mass is that
of Pope St. Pius V dating from July 14, 1570 via apostolic constitution Quo Primum and named after the council of Trent.  The Liturgy (Mass) of St. Gregory predates it by many centuries.  

Father, do you have a reliable link to this liturgy?  The Liturgy of St. Gregory Mass Ordinaries I have read online are almost identical to the Tridentine ordo, save for a Byzantine epiclesis after the simili modo.  I can't find a Latin recension of the Liturgy of St. Gregory online, so I can't make a true comparison of the Tridentine ordo and the St Gregory Ordo.  In the Roman Church, the Missale Romanum does not officially exist in modern vernacular translation.  There was a 16th century Church Slavonic translation of the Tridentine rites for the Czechs, Slovaks, and Croatians, but it is now an extinct translation.

I found this Ordo for the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory for the AWRV.  My apologies -- the Byzantine Epiclesis is between the supra quae and the supplices te rogamus.  This makes sense, since Rome considers the supplices to be an "ascending" epiclesis.  Other than that, the Ordinary is a very literal translation of the Tridentine ordo.

That does not mean, however, that there is some other version of the liturgy that does not resemble the Tridentine reforms.

If I were a WRO priest I would probably just celebrate in Latin from a standard Missale Romanum and simply recite the epiclesis in Greek silently.  If the Liturgy of St. Gregory is 99% identical to Missale Romanum 1962, I don't see the need for a different service book. If the WRO missal contains significantly different Mass propers and prefaces, then I suppose WRO priests must use that book.  However, that leaves priests who would rather say Mass in Latin in a bind.  I doubt that a WRO missal would have the entire Mass, ordinary, propers, and prefaces, in Latin.

Can an eparch grant a dispensation to celebrate from the Missale Romanum and merely insert the required Byzantine prayers as necessary?
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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2011, 06:40:40 AM »

Can an eparch grant a dispensation to celebrate from the Missale Romanum and merely insert the required Byzantine prayers as necessary?

There is no need for such an arrangement nowadays. Btw, in the ROCOR-WR (perhaps with the exception of the Liturgy of St Germanus) no Byzantine prayers are required. An epiclesis is taken from the Gothic Missal.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2011, 07:17:55 AM »

[D]o you have a reliable link to this liturgy?

Here are links, etc. to WRO Liturgies claiming the name of St Gregory:
 - AWRV: http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/AWRV%20Liturgy%20of%20St.%20Gregory.pdf
 - AOC-New Zealand: http://www.antiochian.org.nz/write/printtexts.html (under the "Mass of S.Gregory" headline)
 - ROCOR-Fraternity of St George: http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/FraternityOfSaintGregoryOfficialLiturgy.pdf & http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/Liturgy_of_Saint_Greagory-Traditional_Language.pdf
 - ROCOR-St Benedict Church: a PDF can be requested from Fr. Anthony Nelson at sbc[at]orthodox[dot]org
 - ROCOR-Christminster: included in the Shorter St Colman Prayer Book (ordering info here: http://paruchia.blogspot.com/2009/07/shorter-saint-colman-prayer-book.html)

There is also a Western Liturgy, blessed for a limited use in the MP's German Diocese, which does not claim the name of St Gregory but of Liturgia Romana: http://www.orthodoxia.de/Slavonica.htm (it's in Latin and Church Slavonic).
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2011, 09:14:58 AM »

There is also a Western Liturgy, blessed for a limited use in the MP's German Diocese, which does not claim the name of St Gregory but of Liturgia Romana: http://www.orthodoxia.de/Slavonica.htm (it's in Latin and Church Slavonic).

Interesting. Do you know if this is in use in that parish?
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »

Interesting. Do you know if this is in use in that parish?

Pastor of this parish uses this Liturgy in his private home chapel. There is yet another MP priest in Germany who does similarly.
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Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,610



« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2011, 09:27:12 AM »

Interesting. Do you know if this is in use in that parish?

Pastor of this parish uses this Liturgy in his private home chapel.

Even more interesting. Thank you. Smiley
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