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« on: April 02, 2011, 07:56:07 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Does anybody use or own a copy of the Orthodox prayers of old England prayer book. I was thinking about ordering one and I just wanted to know what people think about it. Or if you are of the Western rite what prayerbook you use.

Have a Blessed fast,
Seraphim(David)
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2011, 08:01:59 PM »

You can find a review of this one: http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Golden-Blossom-Treasury-Anglo-Saxon-Prayer/dp/080910542X

Here: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/03/from-mailbag-good-pre-schism-british.html

I have not used it however, so I can not give a personal recommendation.
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2011, 08:18:24 PM »

Christ the Golden Blossom is a wonderful book. It's not really set up like a prayer book, as far as daily morning/evening prayers, etc., but instead has a Temporale section which moves throughout the liturgical year's major Feasts, and then a Sanctorale section which has brief hagiographies and prayers dedicated to the saints. It has gorgeous artwork and is compiled from great sources.
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2011, 11:29:52 PM »

You may want to check with Fr. Peter of the British Orthodox Church:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33913.0.html

Is the prayer book you are talking about actually in the Old English language, (like Beowulf?)  Or is it a prayer book in Modern English that has pre-Schism prayers that used to be used in England?  Either way it would be interesting.
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 11:42:22 PM »

modern English with post schism prayers I believe
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 03:35:11 PM »

modern English with post schism prayers I believe

It is modern English indeed but claims to have only pre-Schism prayers included. Before ordering, you can check out this prayer book here (all the PDFs with "SHP" at the beginning of their names).
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 03:10:48 PM »

The book referenced, is "Orthodox Prayers of Old England," the most extensive prayerbook for Orthodox Christians in the Western Rite. Information on the book, with a picture of the book, is available here: 

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Bookstore.html

Many clergy and laity of a variety of canonical jurisdictions utilise "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" for their home prayers, and the prayers and services (many complete church services and sacraments are provided in it) are blessed by usage by Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

To quote from the info page for the book, these are the contents:

The prayer book consists of 456 6"x9" pages, Smythe-sewn, and hardbound in imitation dark blue leather with beautiful gold stamping on the front and spine. Contents include the following:

- Basic Prayers
- Morning Prayers
- Evening Prayers
- Table Blessings
- Reverences in Church
- Preparation for Holy Communion
- Order of Divine Services on Sundays and Feasts
- Prayers before the Divine Office
- Vespers for Sat., Sun., Mon., Tues., Wed., Thur., Fri.
- Compline (for reg. days, feasts, Our Lady)
- Matins and Lauds for Sundays
- Terce / Third Hour
- Sun. Water Blessing, Sprinkling, and Procession with Bidding Prayers
- Divine Liturgy (Sarum Mass, incl. Hierarchical items) + Bread Blessing
- Thanksgiving after Holy Communion
- Notes About the Mass (patristic origin of different prayers, spiritual interpretation of the service)
- Sext / Sixth Hour
- Nones / Ninth Hour
- Presanctified Mass (for Lenten weekdays)
- Missa Sicca (Western Rite typika)
- Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, incl. all things added for Hierarchical
- Gaelic Litany of the Holy Virgin Mary
- Litany of the Saints with Final Collects
- Jesus Prayer
- Salutations Before the Holy Cross
- Prayers of Remembrance (memoriser or intercession)
- Seven Penitential Psalms
- Fifteen Gradual Psalms with Collects
- Little Office of the Holy Virgin Mary (Vespers, Compline, Matins, Hours, etc.)
- Little Office of the Guardian Angel (Vespers, Compline, Matins, Hours, etc.)
- Priest's Visit to a Mother Newly Delivered
- Blessing of New Mothers (churching)
- Order of the Catechumenate / Holy Baptism / Chrismation / Tonsure
- Repentance (explanations)
- Guide to Confession (extremely complete examination of conscience)
- Order of Confession
- Betrothals (notes, banns, betrothals proper, nuptial mass, bed blessing)
- Service for Travellers
- Holy Unction (20 pages, all priest's prayers as well as the others' parts)
- Prayers for the Dying
- Vigils of the Dead (Vespers & Matins)
- Commendation of Souls (sung before every Requiem Mass)
- Requiem Mass
- Burial of the Dead

- Prayers for Various Occasions
1. Prayers for Those in the Church
Prayer of a Pastor
Prayers for Pastors & Archpastors
Prayer for the Faithful (2)
Prayer for a Monastery
Prayer for Unity
Prayer for Catechumens

2. Prayers for Family & Friends
General Prayer
For Those in Heresy / Schism
For Those in Judaism
For Those in Paganism
Prayer for a Living Friend
Prayer for God's Guidance
Prayer for One Sick or Afflicted
Prayers for the Sick
Prayer for Taking Medicine
Prayer for a Pregnant Woman

3. Prayer for Benefactors

4. Prayers for Prisoners

5. For All Living & Dead

6. For the Departed

Prayers in Time of Trouble
1. Against Evil Thoughts
2. Against Temptations of the Flesh
3. For Chastity
4. Thunderstorms & Tornadoes
5. Lightning
6. Destroyers of the Church
7. Deliverance from Pagans
8. In Wartime
9. For Peace & Reconciliation
10. For the Holy Land
11. Against Gossips
12. In Afflictions

Prayers for Travel

Prayers for Good Death (of St. Melania, St. Hilary, many others)

Prayers for Fasting Days (one is for fasting on a vigil)

Prayers for Virtues and Blessings
1. For the Kingdom of Heaven (describes heaven - beautiful!)
2. For True Love
3. For Faith, Hope, and Charity
4. For Chastity
5. For Wisdom
6. For True Peace
7. For the Virtues
8. For Spiritual Life
9. For Indwelling of the Holy Spirit
10. For Courage in Nightly Fears

Prayers for Good Gifts
1. For Rain
2. For the Crops
3. For God's Protection—the Breastplate Prayers

Prayers for the Animals
1. For Animal Friends |
2. For Sick Animals |
3. Against Infestation

Service of Thanksgiving

Prayers to the Holy Trinity

Asking the Prayers of the Saints of God
1. The Theotokos (many)
2. Holy Angels of the Lord (many)
3. Patriarchs & Prophets (many)
4. Holy Apostles (many)
5. Holy Martyrs (many)
6. Holy Confessors (many)
7. Holy Women of the Lord (many)

Prayers to the Lord with His Saints

Prayer When One is Sick

Prayer for Protection from Enemies

Prayers of Repentance
1. Of St. Jerome
2. Short Prayer
3. Of St. Martin
4. Of St. Ephraim
5. For Tears, by St. Isidore of Seville

Prayer of Exorcism of Pope St. Leo III

Order of Reading the Holy Scriptures (prayers before reading)

Abbreviations for Books of Scripture

- Read the Whole Bible in a Year (schedule includes deuterocanonical books)
- Weekly Psalter Readings (150 psalms per week, includes the canticles)
- Clear comparison of Massoretic and Vulgate/Septuagint psalm numbering
- How to Make Singing Breads (prosphora recipe, prayers)
- Fasts and Feasts (explains the fullness of the Western tradition)
- Little Calendar (gives a Saint or two for each day of year)
- Eight Tones (gives psalm tones and neums)
- Exhaustive alphabetical indices

and more.

Except for the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which was provided to help WR Orthodox who travel, and the one-line Jesus Prayer, everything is from the old tradition of the Western church. There are no modern Roman Catholic items. Many items are provided with musical notation, such as the Our Father, Te Deum, Sat. Vespers, and the 8 Tones.

[Note: to get a copy, send $44 postpaid (for U.S. addresses) to: St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766.]

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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2011, 03:17:12 PM »

Here is one review of "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" from a lady in a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction:

> I feel compelled to say that the beautiful "Salutations Before The Holy
> Cross" in "Orthodox Prayers Of Old England" are infinitely superior to the
> modern Stations of the Cross, both in language, form and length....... it is
> worth buying OPOOE for this alone, not to mention having a complete Little
> Office of Our Lady and a complete Office of the Guardian Angel as well as
> the main texts of the Liturgy of the Hours and the texts of the
> Sacraments.!!
>
> Absolutely everything in OPOE has been of great spiritual benefit to me, as
> well as fulfilling my aesthetic sensibilities in terms of stately, poetic
> and appropriate liturgical English. It is a wonderful resource indeed, a
> veritable treasure-trove of our liturgical heritage. There are many prayers
> for absolutely every eventuality in it, whether it is prayers before taking
> medicine, prayers for sick animals, prayers for the dying, a Gaelic litany
> of Our Lady, prayers of repentance - it is amazingly comprehensive and in
> one compact volume with a clear and readable font, even when praying by
> candlelight J
>
> Each time I use it, I ask God's blessing on our dear Fr Aidan for all his
> hard work in translating and producing this book for our benefit.
>
> For those new to the list, you can see an online version of the Salutations at
> http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SHP%20Salutations%20of%20Cross.pdf
>
> It is worth visiting the home page first and downloading the appropriate
> fonts so you will get the indications to make the Sign of the Cross at the
> appropriate points in the service...
> http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html
>
> The index outlining the contents of OPOE is here:
> http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SHP%20Prayer%20Book%20Index.pdf
>
> I must add that I speak only as a very satisfied customer of Fr Aidan's and
> a very happy user of the book. I do also have the new LA Book of Common
> Prayer and it is indeed a very nice volume, but in my opinion, it simply
> cannot be compared with OOPOE in terms of its scope or its continuation of
> our liturgical patrimony.......
>
> Praying for God's blessings on us all, and asking forgiveness if I have
> offended anyone with my words,
>
> Elizabeth
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 03:57:46 PM »

That was back in May 2010. Here is a related review from David James, author/compilier of "A Psalter For Prayer" (the Orthodox-revised Coverdale Psalter just published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville):

> ... I agree with everything Elizabeth has said: Fr. Aidan's Old Sarum Prayer
Book is far superior to the Anglican Prayer Book as a treasure-trove of
genuine Orthodox English piety. However, I did buy a copy of Lancelot
Andrewes Press Prayer Book, mainly so as to have a copy of the Coverdale
Psalter (1928 BCP version) handy, since my old Prayer Book (1662 version)
was falling apart. Has anyone else noticed the unfortunate typo in Ps 2,
where Ps 1:3 is accidentally interpolated between Ps. 2:2 and the proper Ps.
2:3?

> David James

Here is another review:

> ... My name is Tim Herman, I'm 24 years old, and live in central
Pennsylvania. I am a convert to Holy Orthodoxy, raised Roman Catholic,
and of predominantly German and Italian background...
I have the greatest respect for Fr. Aidan as I
just love his amazing work on publishing of the Sarum texts, and wish
to someday either own (not likely unless it is a lot less expensive as
last time) or at least be able to leaf through a copy of the Old Sarum
Rite Missal. I already own the "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" and
use it regularly. ...

Here is another review from a priest of an unrecognised jurisdiction:

> ... I purchased an edition of the Orthodox Prayers of Old England
prayerbook last year and love it immensely. I will be waiting
eagerly for the new edition of the Sarum Missal coming out soon (?).

Here is another review from a priest who is in the Astoria GOC jurisdiction:

> ... I find the prayer book you have already published [Orthodox Prayers of Old England] to be quite edifying and helpful in keeping a rule of reading the psalms.

> Deacon John Somers
June 7, 2007


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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 04:47:29 PM »

Also, some Antiochian priests have told me that they use "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" for home devotions regularly.

Here is a picture of the book, a copy of which sold on eBay not too long ago for over $300, although brand new copies are in stock for $40 (!).



Fr. Aidan+
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2011, 07:52:27 PM »

Is this still being published under the Milan Synod?
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 08:01:53 PM »

Good luck getting a copy of it. I sent away for it in January and sent at least 3 emails to Fr. Aiden over a 2 month period with no reply to any of them. What a shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 08:49:33 PM »

Was the tri-bar cross ever used in "Old England"?
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 07:37:46 AM »

Good luck getting a copy of it. I sent away for it in January and sent at least 3 emails to Fr. Aiden over a 2 month period with no reply to any of them. What a shame.

In Christ,
Andrew

Yea, I tried ordering it too and emailing Fr. Aiden as well months ago and never got a reply.
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 07:46:26 AM »

Also, some Antiochian priests have told me that they use "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" for home devotions regularly.

Here is a picture of the book, a copy of which sold on eBay not too long ago for over $300, although brand new copies are in stock for $40 (!).



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http://www.orthodoxaustin.org


Fr. Aidan, what would be the best way to contact you or St. John Cassian Press for questions about ordering? I tried emailing St. John Cassian Press via the email address that they have listed and I also tried emailing you at what I believe is your yahoo emailing address back in December but I never got a reply.
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2011, 05:53:41 PM »

I am sorry for any lapses in communication or order fulfillment, but if those who have received unacceptable customer service will contact me at hieromonachusaidanus at yahoo dot com, or send a letter to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766, I do promise to make good on each and every prepaid order and reply to every inquiry.

Asking forgiveness,

Fr. Aidan+  a sinner
St. John Cassian Press
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2011, 09:37:36 PM »

I am sorry for any lapses in communication or order fulfillment, but if those who have received unacceptable customer service will contact me at hieromonachusaidanus at yahoo dot com, or send a letter to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766, I do promise to make good on each and every prepaid order and reply to every inquiry.

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St. John Cassian Press

Thank you, Father. I sent an email about a week ago. Look forward to receiving the prayerbook.  Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 04:29:43 PM »

I am sorry for any lapses in communication or order fulfillment, but if those who have received unacceptable customer service will contact me at hieromonachusaidanus at yahoo dot com, or send a letter to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766, I do promise to make good on each and every prepaid order and reply to every inquiry.

Asking forgiveness,

Fr. Aidan+  a sinner
St. John Cassian Press


Thank you, Father. I received mine today.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 04:55:14 PM »

I am sorry for any lapses in communication or order fulfillment, but if those who have received unacceptable customer service will contact me at hieromonachusaidanus at yahoo dot com, or send a letter to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766, I do promise to make good on each and every prepaid order and reply to every inquiry.

Asking forgiveness,

Fr. Aidan+  a sinner
St. John Cassian Press


Thank you, Father. I received mine today.
As did I. I'm at work now but I look forward to going through it after Vespers tonight. It looks amazing. Did I hear correctly that another version is in the works? I wonder how many WR churches use it? So far, it seems like it would be absolutely indispensable. I'll post more later tonight.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 11:08:42 PM »

Yep, got mine last week and I have to say it is a very thorough and well-put together prayer book.
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 05:33:05 PM »

First, thanks for the kind words about the "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" (OPOE) prayer book.
Second, it's set up as a non-liturgical devotional book, although it contains many completely-worded services in it, the ones you might want to "follow" in church, like the baptism service. But it's conceived as a book for laity. So it is hard to say if a "parish" would use it. I know many Western (and Eastern) rite clergy of various jurisdictions, who use it on a daily basis. It can supplement any particular rite since it's a book of devotions at core.
Third, there are vague plans in the back of my mind for a fourth edition. However, those plans are very much on the back burner. I am working very hard right now on a bilingual (Latin-English) version of key parts of OPOE. This would include, at a minimum, morning and evening prayers and grace, and at the most, those plus the little office of Our Lady, Seven Psalms, Fifteen Psalms, Litany of Saints, confession, Mass, Salutations before the Holy Cross, and something else I'm forgetting.
Fourth, the tri-bar cross is found in Western iconography of the 11th to 12th centuries. I can't think of particularly English examples, although there are German examples.
Fifth, I would like to see this book in Spanish translation.
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 09:04:57 PM »

Fr. Aidan,

How is this work different in the hours from the Monastic Diurnal?  Or is it the same as the Monastic Diurnal but with additional prayers?

Thank you for publishing this work!
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 09:11:25 PM »

There are two main forms of the divine office in the Roman rite.

The older one is called the "cathedral" or "secular" office, and was used by cathedrals, parishes, and some monasteries. Its ordering of psalms and basic components for the various hours is what is preserved in the Roman rite such as I've published in English in OPOE and elsewhere.

The newer one (which is 6th century) is called the "Benedictine" or "monastic" office, and was used in monasteries of St. Benedict's Rule. Its ordering of psalms assigned to the various Hours is different.

Both these types of divine office have been blessed for use in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad's Western Rite Vicariate (RWRV).

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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 09:42:31 PM »

Thank you Fr. Aidan, I assume the best way to purchase a copy is through http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Bookstore.html?

In Christ,
-braish
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2012, 11:55:28 PM »

Quote
Fourth, the tri-bar cross is found in Western iconography of the 11th to 12th centuries. I can't think of particularly English examples, although there are German examples.

One bar cross, yes. Two bar cross, sometimes. Three bar, no.

This is I feel an incorrect statement. There have never been three bar crosses of that type in latin rite iconography at any period in history and there never will be. With one exception, some processional crucifixes that displayed Christ visibly on them, such as this, had a sort of Suppedaneum, but not as prominent as later eastern types by any means, there is a distinct difference.:    


For the cover of a book, for almost anything without the crucifixion scene, a three bar cross was unheard of. Even with the crucifixion scene the Suppedaneum was not usually emphasized in that byzantine post-13th c. manner.

These are examples of usual crosses in the west : http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/HistoricalCrosses2.html

In fact, the opposite reality is true - Byzantine crosses looked much more like the Latin crosses before 1054 AD.
I would therefore endorse removing the "post-14th c. slavic/rus byzantine cross" from the "Orthodox Prayers of Old England" in future printings, in deference to the older mutually shared - byzantine/latin type.


Processional Cross, ca. 1000–1050
Byzantine (Constantinople)
Silver with gilding and gilded silver medallions

23 5/8 x 17 3/4 in. (60 x 45.1 cm)
Rogers Fund, 1993 (1993.163)

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1993.163


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/2006.569
http://www.ancienttouch.com/crosses_and_enkolpia.htm

However there does exist since in latin christianity the "two barred" "Patriarchal cross" for metropolitans bishops.
But we must not confused the two barred with the three barred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_cross
Here is a famous 12th c. byzantine/rus two bar cross:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Saint_Euphrosyne


Sometime in 11th or 12th century ? we begin see some three bar crosses in Constantinople region, though the third bar was never slanted, that was a slavic innovation that came sometime after the 12th c. Three bar crosses became very popular in the reliquaries of the holy precious life giving true cross of Christ made since the 11th c. Under that same influence, a few reliquaries in the west have three three bars, but they were confined to that and never ever became in the west anything but a rare curiousity associated with those relics.

Additionally, in Non-chalcedonian "oriental orthodox" Churches, they do not use the three bar cross.  It is not part of their tradition because it is an innovation unique to second millenium byzantine rites. Their crosses are substantially the same as the latin and byzantine crosses of the first 1200 years.
 

With that said, I ask for my dear friend Fr. Aidan's blessing.




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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 12:06:09 AM »

As far as latin roman rite book covers come, this was a particularly beautiful example I found which might serve as some inspiration. Though this is distinctive to a gospel book it is nice to be aware of and one can certainly see it does not have a three bar cross.

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=fml26r" target="_blank"><img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/fml26r.jpg" border="0" alt="">[/url]



http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0007/bsb00070303/images/
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0007/bsb00070303/images/bsb00070303_00001.jpg
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2012, 12:16:41 PM »

There are two main forms of the divine office in the Roman rite.

The older one is called the "cathedral" or "secular" office, and was used by cathedrals, parishes, and some monasteries. Its ordering of psalms and basic components for the various hours is what is preserved in the Roman rite such as I've published in English in OPOE and elsewhere.

The newer one (which is 6th century) is called the "Benedictine" or "monastic" office, and was used in monasteries of St. Benedict's Rule. Its ordering of psalms assigned to the various Hours is different.

Both these types of divine office have been blessed for use in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad's Western Rite Vicariate (RWRV).



The (secular) officium divinum of the Roman Rite is not only (of) cathedral (origin), but already a mixture of cathedral (as one can seee in the structure of laudes, prime, compline) and monastic (matutins, vespers = ps. currens) office. The Benedictine office is a descendent of the Roman office, a bit more elaborate.
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 12:49:30 AM »

What about the Benedictine office is "more elaborate" than the secular office?
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2012, 12:59:00 AM »

In an old Western Rite church:



There are 10th-century examples of the three-bar (or "eight-point") cross and it occurs in an Antiphonary from the 12th century which is in Austria (I think it is the Melk Antiphonary), which is a Latin, Roman-rite service book. These early examples, whether Western or Eastern, usually have an unslanted footrest.
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2012, 12:52:54 AM »

The particular mosaic of the Anastasis also known as "Christ's Descent into Hell/Hades" or "Harrowing of Hell" that Fr. Aidan chose above is actually from a greek monastery Hosios Loukas. Though it is not latin, it is most certainly one of Greece' finest monasteries with surviving mosaics.
See here for details: http://www.cornellcollege.edu/classical_studies/ariadne/readings/ch10.shtml

Perhaps Fr. Aidan was confusing it with that found in St. Mark's Basilica in Venice where there is a somewhat similar Anastasis to it.  

Because San Marco's was copied directly after the Church of the Holy Apostles in Constantinople it has MANY features not found anywhere else in the latin west, thus it is an unusual exception to the standard architectural/iconographic traditions of latinity.
That is not to say that Saint Mark's is purely byzantine in conception, there are a significant number of specific latin iconographic traditions within it, which would not be found further East, such as the personifications of the virtues underneath one of the domes (one of my favourites).

I do think though that the San Marco anastasis is an example of something that is "overly" imitating the latest fashionable post-twelfth century Comnenian dynasties style of portraying the anastasis. That is to say how the anastasis would have been portrayed in that time and that place. (11th c. Constantinople portrayed the Anastasis with slightly less emotionalism/drama) .
San Marco's was finished shortly after Constantinope was sacked and thus was partly a political attempt by Venice to take over their empire, thus it was intended to directly compete with their architecture, on their own terms moreso.

The below examples are more typical portrayals for the Latin West, that would serve as potential Latin rite Orthodox examples for today:


from about the year 1200 in France


mid 12th c. English example


11th c. Exultet Roll from Benevento, Southern Italy.



Titre: School of Reichenau (Holy Roman Empire). Manuscript of the century. ° X-XI,
Gospels. Folio 35v. Jesus' descent into hell.
Genre: Illumination  Localisation: Biblioteca Queriniana, Brescia, Italia

Thus, irregardless of the slant on the third bar/foot rest, we see that the three bar cross is not typically a part of the iconography of the Latin west. The useage of it on the cover of the Orthodox Prayers of Old England is at least out of the ordinary.
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2012, 11:06:55 PM »

Are all the prayers Anglo-Saxon or are there Celtic and Roman prayers as well?
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2012, 11:24:35 PM »

Anglo-Saxon devotions are known to have been a mixture of (strictly) Roman, Gallican, Celtic, and some other Latin prayers.

Anglo-Saxon prayer books are full of the above repertoire and that is what you get in Orthodox Prayers of Old England.

You can get a copy by sending $44 to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX  78766. Be sure to include name and address. This is for domestic U.S. addresses.

(About crosses with footrests, there is a clear miniature of this in a 12th century antiphonary from, I believe, Melk. It is a manuscript illumination showing Sts. Constantine and Helen holding up a cross between them. It is a strictly Roman rite liturgical book. It is unusual for the West, but certainly not unknown. In the same way, a circle connecting the four bars of the cross near their convergence, is unusual to find in Russian Orthodox arts, being something we usually associate with Celtic Christianity, but you do run across it in Russian arts occasionally.)
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« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »

Anglo-Saxon devotions are known to have been a mixture of (strictly) Roman, Gallican, Celtic, and some other Latin prayers.

Anglo-Saxon prayer books are full of the above repertoire and that is what you get in Orthodox Prayers of Old England.

You can get a copy by sending $44 to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX  78766. Be sure to include name and address. This is for domestic U.S. addresses.

(About crosses with footrests, there is a clear miniature of this in a 12th century antiphonary from, I believe, Melk. It is a manuscript illumination showing Sts. Constantine and Helen holding up a cross between them. It is a strictly Roman rite liturgical book. It is unusual for the West, but certainly not unknown. In the same way, a circle connecting the four bars of the cross near their convergence, is unusual to find in Russian Orthodox arts, being something we usually associate with Celtic Christianity, but you do run across it in Russian arts occasionally.)

Thanks, Father. I think I'll save up for it.

What Mass rites does it contain (Tikhon, Gregory, et al.)?
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2012, 10:16:28 PM »

I was looking at Torcello mosaics or something on Google image search. Oops!

About OPOE ("Orthodox Prayers of Old England"), it contains (a) the Roman Mass in the Sarum use and (b) the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (its only non-Western Rite content). The ER liturgy was included out of sheer practicality, since WR people may travel to other cities and need to attend an ER liturgy.
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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 03:18:59 PM »

Does this book contain the Sarum rite as modified for ROCOR WR use or is it an exact reproduction of the Sarum rite?

Thanks and Blessed Advent-eve!
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2012, 08:33:24 PM »

It contains the Sarum Rite in an edition blessed for ROCOR use. It is Sarum Rite only, with some customs from other, co-aeval Old English service books closely kin to the Sarum. (Which is what, for example, St. John of Kronstadt Press did with its Menaion--they sometimes accepted akolouthia from various Russian cities, e.g., a service for such-and-such a Saint from a Kiev book or a Novgorod source.)

Since then, an edition was prepared for ROCOR use which does not include the co-aeval, etc. Only what's literally found in historic Sarum books.

Plus an epiclesis. But that's the only adaptation.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SarumMass2011c.pdf
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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 10:39:52 AM »

I ordered this book back on November 9th and I still haven't received it even though I've called and spoken to Fr Aidan a couple times as well as sending numerous PM's via this site as well as emails.  I would like to just cancel this order and get my check back (has yet to be cashed) but I'm not optimistic given the track history and I don't want to disrespect Fr Aidain. 

Any ideas?
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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 11:57:54 AM »

I ordered this book back on November 9th and I still haven't received it even though I've called and spoken to Fr Aidan a couple times as well as sending numerous PM's via this site as well as emails.  I would like to just cancel this order and get my check back (has yet to be cashed) but I'm not optimistic given the track history and I don't want to disrespect Fr Aidain. 

Any ideas?

Have the same problem. Only Im only a little over a month into waiting. PO MO for me. Suddenly I dont feel as bad, as I see others are being treated as badly as I  Undecided
I have been bugging Father Aidan on a weekly basis. Calling or emailing. Doesnt seem to be working.... The only thing as legendary as the book and its quality is the ridiculous amount of hoops and waiting you have to do even after payment has been received to get it.
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 05:31:10 PM »

I ordered this book back on November 9th and I still haven't received it even though I've called and spoken to Fr Aidan a couple times as well as sending numerous PM's via this site as well as emails.  I would like to just cancel this order and get my check back (has yet to be cashed) but I'm not optimistic given the track history and I don't want to disrespect Fr Aidain. 

Any ideas?

Have the same problem. Only Im only a little over a month into waiting. PO MO for me. Suddenly I dont feel as bad, as I see others are being treated as badly as I  Undecided
I have been bugging Father Aidan on a weekly basis. Calling or emailing. Doesnt seem to be working.... The only thing as legendary as the book and its quality is the ridiculous amount of hoops and waiting you have to do even after payment has been received to get it.

Yep, doesn't make sense......
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2013, 01:41:24 AM »

Sorry, y'all, but it took me three weeks to get enough time to make it across town to the post office to retrieve the mail with the orders. I am so overcommitted it's ridiculous. I have put in a request at my secular job for two weeks unpaid leave, just so as to be able to have time to deal with these things (unfortunately, people coming to confession, or instruction, or homeless people, or people needing food or baby formula, get first priority). It's crazy. For example, I go into my cell phone's voice mail and typically I will hear something like this: "Twenty-two unheard messages have exceeded their storage life, and have been deleted. You have eighteen new voice messages. To hear your messages, press 1." And I only have the time spent driving, to hear those messages and try to deal with two or three of them. I cringe and just hope that none of those 22 deleted, unheard messages were something important!

I am not saying all this in order to garner sympathy, but to forestall anyone coming up with an idea like, "Fr. Aidan is just ignoring my order. Fr. Aidan must not care about my order. Fr. Aidan is treating me callously." For that is simply not the case. There are days when I get to eat, but have no time to bathe or sleep enough. Other days, I sleep well, then have no time to bathe or eat till maybe the evening. Other days, I bathe and it makes me late to commitments or to work. Some people also have got the idea that I just waste time on OC.net posting about all kinds of things. But 95% of the time, I am posting from work, where I have short breaks or sometimes have breaks in the workload, and I use this as a way to relax and blow off steam from hearing about child deaths and horrible sex abuse and babies submersed in boiling water and people who are suicidal and I'm trying to keep them alive till police can arrive, etc. OC.net is just a nice alternative to all that. Or I can attend to making my own discussion group successful (I've vanished off it for some four months now), or do something more than once every three weeks with Facebook, or something, but not more than one (maybe sometimes two) of the above. But it's not like I'm spending time I could spend on filling book orders, writing OC.net posts instead. That would be an incorrect assumption.

I'm not justifying my awful customer service, but please try to walk a mile in my shoes. Full time job. Overtime. Church clear across town, always growing, lots of people needing this and that, the poor families, people losing their homes, people begging formula for their baby, no sort of help at all. Constant meetings and crazy streams of phone calls. Everybody living far away from the church, so not as easy to fill in or come over and help, although I guess there is a little help sometimes.  

And, in the end, everyone will get his books. Please be patient. Remember, I am trying to take a big pay cut here, just to do this work for you all.  
Just today I got an inquiry from a fellow clergyman. Noticing that I had almost completely vanished off my usual discussion group, he asked me, "Are you alive?" So, trust me, it's nothing personal.

Whoever is willing to likewise cut his monthly salary in half, in order to help me in this publication work, will be rewarded by my ceasing such dramatic posts as this one...  Wink

Any takers?
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2013, 01:52:31 AM »

Sorry, y'all, but it took me three weeks to get enough time to make it across town to the post office to retrieve the mail with the orders. I am so overcommitted it's ridiculous. I have put in a request at my secular job for two weeks unpaid leave, just so as to be able to have time to deal with these things (unfortunately, people coming to confession, or instruction, or homeless people, or people needing food or baby formula, get first priority). It's crazy. For example, I go into my cell phone's voice mail and typically I will hear something like this: "Twenty-two unheard messages have exceeded their storage life, and have been deleted. You have eighteen new voice messages. To hear your messages, press 1." And I only have the time spent driving, to hear those messages and try to deal with two or three of them. I cringe and just hope that none of those 22 deleted, unheard messages were something important!

I am not saying all this in order to garner sympathy, but to forestall anyone coming up with an idea like, "Fr. Aidan is just ignoring my order. Fr. Aidan must not care about my order. Fr. Aidan is treating me callously." For that is simply not the case. There are days when I get to eat, but have no time to bathe or sleep enough. Other days, I sleep well, then have no time to bathe or eat till maybe the evening. Other days, I bathe and it makes me late to commitments or to work. Some people also have got the idea that I just waste time on OC.net posting about all kinds of things. But 95% of the time, I am posting from work, where I have short breaks or sometimes have breaks in the workload, and I use this as a way to relax and blow off steam from hearing about child deaths and horrible sex abuse and babies submersed in boiling water and people who are suicidal and I'm trying to keep them alive till police can arrive, etc. OC.net is just a nice alternative to all that. Or I can attend to making my own discussion group successful (I've vanished off it for some four months now), or do something more than once every three weeks with Facebook, or something, but not more than one (maybe sometimes two) of the above. But it's not like I'm spending time I could spend on filling book orders, writing OC.net posts instead. That would be an incorrect assumption.

I'm not justifying my awful customer service, but please try to walk a mile in my shoes. Full time job. Overtime. Church clear across town, always growing, lots of people needing this and that, the poor families, people losing their homes, people begging formula for their baby, no sort of help at all. Constant meetings and crazy streams of phone calls. Everybody living far away from the church, so not as easy to fill in or come over and help, although I guess there is a little help sometimes.  

And, in the end, everyone will get his books. Please be patient. Remember, I am trying to take a big pay cut here, just to do this work for you all.  
Just today I got an inquiry from a fellow clergyman. Noticing that I had almost completely vanished off my usual discussion group, he asked me, "Are you alive?" So, trust me, it's nothing personal.

Whoever is willing to likewise cut his monthly salary in half, in order to help me in this publication work, will be rewarded by my ceasing such dramatic posts as this one...  Wink

Any takers?
Father, I am putting your name on my prosphora prayer card!  I'll pray for you.  May St. Nicholas help you maintain your sanity!
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2013, 02:15:41 AM »

Thank you so much. Well, the fact is, there are others who work a lot harder than me and take it much better in stride. But I do sometimes reach the edge of overwhelmedness. Those heavy lifters might include emergency room doctors, soldiers on the field of battle, and the CPS workers who actually go out and remove children from their parents, dodging bullets, attack dogs, and spittle. Their workloads are actually much more intense.

I was just informed that Orthodox Prayers of Old England is selling on Amazon for $90 a pop, so this might be an option for those who want a copy and speed is of the essence. I'll sell them for $40, for a pittance, but I'm so slow in sending them. Copies were sold on eBay some years ago for over $300 a copy.

Two weeks ago I went and bought the mailer envelopes for filling the latest orders, but then had not enough time to actually go to the P.O. box and fetch the mail, which had piled up tremendously. Oh, I forgot the many duties of administering my deceased mom's estate, with certain people occasionally getting all worried and calling me and emailing me and pressuring me to immediately send this or that sum of money as if their life depended on it, when I hadn't even had the time to do the proper accounting beforehand to figure what's payable. I'm overdue in getting the legally required documentation to the Court, but... what can I do? Another reason I asked for two weeks unpaid leave.

For those who don't know, St. John Cassian Press is my garage apartment next to the church in Austin (a wonderful parish www.orthodoxaustin.org). So it's like 300 sq. feet jammed high with bookshelves, loads of books, binding equipment, half of my bed is filled with items, and I sleep in the other half of the bed. A tiny refrigerator and a microwave, a few food shelves. There's not much room. So from this unpromising little lair all the stuff has to get printed, bound, prepared for mailing. A lot of the space is taken up with book stocks. It's cozy but... for those who imagine I have some kind of an office space to work out of, ... only in my dreams!

It's a wretched little operation which worked okay with constant labor, back when I worked only part time, ten years ago.  
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2013, 02:33:29 AM »

I do get a stipend from being the parish priest, but it's $200 a month for about 20-25 hours of work per week.

Typical, for ROCOR...

Our Bishop Peter was talking with a Greek Orthodox bishop friend, who asked what they paid him. Bp. Peter told him the amount. His friend was shocked and said he couldn't believe they only paid him that much per month. Bp. Peter said, no, that's not per month, that's per YEAR.

Speaking of hard work, I don't think I can hold a candle to Bp. Peter or the Metropolitan...
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2013, 11:41:13 AM »

I do get a stipend from being the parish priest, but it's $200 a month for about 20-25 hours of work per week.

Typical, for ROCOR...

Our Bishop Peter was talking with a Greek Orthodox bishop friend, who asked what they paid him. Bp. Peter told him the amount. His friend was shocked and said he couldn't believe they only paid him that much per month. Bp. Peter said, no, that's not per month, that's per YEAR.

Speaking of hard work, I don't think I can hold a candle to Bp. Peter or the Metropolitan...

PM sent
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »

Sorry, y'all, but it took me three weeks to get enough time to make it across town to the post office to retrieve the mail with the orders. I am so overcommitted it's ridiculous. I have put in a request at my secular job for two weeks unpaid leave, just so as to be able to have time to deal with these things (unfortunately, people coming to confession, or instruction, or homeless people, or people needing food or baby formula, get first priority). It's crazy. For example, I go into my cell phone's voice mail and typically I will hear something like this: "Twenty-two unheard messages have exceeded their storage life, and have been deleted. You have eighteen new voice messages. To hear your messages, press 1." And I only have the time spent driving, to hear those messages and try to deal with two or three of them. I cringe and just hope that none of those 22 deleted, unheard messages were something important!

I am not saying all this in order to garner sympathy, but to forestall anyone coming up with an idea like, "Fr. Aidan is just ignoring my order. Fr. Aidan must not care about my order. Fr. Aidan is treating me callously." For that is simply not the case. There are days when I get to eat, but have no time to bathe or sleep enough. Other days, I sleep well, then have no time to bathe or eat till maybe the evening. Other days, I bathe and it makes me late to commitments or to work. Some people also have got the idea that I just waste time on OC.net posting about all kinds of things. But 95% of the time, I am posting from work, where I have short breaks or sometimes have breaks in the workload, and I use this as a way to relax and blow off steam from hearing about child deaths and horrible sex abuse and babies submersed in boiling water and people who are suicidal and I'm trying to keep them alive till police can arrive, etc. OC.net is just a nice alternative to all that. Or I can attend to making my own discussion group successful (I've vanished off it for some four months now), or do something more than once every three weeks with Facebook, or something, but not more than one (maybe sometimes two) of the above. But it's not like I'm spending time I could spend on filling book orders, writing OC.net posts instead. That would be an incorrect assumption.

I'm not justifying my awful customer service, but please try to walk a mile in my shoes. Full time job. Overtime. Church clear across town, always growing, lots of people needing this and that, the poor families, people losing their homes, people begging formula for their baby, no sort of help at all. Constant meetings and crazy streams of phone calls. Everybody living far away from the church, so not as easy to fill in or come over and help, although I guess there is a little help sometimes.  

And, in the end, everyone will get his books. Please be patient. Remember, I am trying to take a big pay cut here, just to do this work for you all.  
Just today I got an inquiry from a fellow clergyman. Noticing that I had almost completely vanished off my usual discussion group, he asked me, "Are you alive?" So, trust me, it's nothing personal.

Whoever is willing to likewise cut his monthly salary in half, in order to help me in this publication work, will be rewarded by my ceasing such dramatic posts as this one...  Wink

Any takers?

Parishoners need to man up and start paying the priests. You want to pay the priest part time, you get a part time priest.
I dont know what these people think. Freaking shameful. You can sacrifice a few steak dinners or going out or another new smart phone or ipad to pay the guy who ministers to you so he can live above the poverty level.


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