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Author Topic: Pontifical Western-Rite High Mass to be celebrated in ROCOR Canada WR  (Read 14451 times) Average Rating: 0
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SubdeaconDavid
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« on: April 01, 2011, 10:56:54 PM »

His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar-Bishop to His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has announced that in November he will celebrate a pontifical high mass in the Western-rite in Christ the Saviour Monastery in Canada.  His Grace has already worn Western vestments given to him by the Very Reverend Fr. Anthony (Bondi), Pastoral Vicar for the Western-Rite of ROCOR. Here is a photo of Vladyka Jerome with the Vicar-General for the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, and his assistant, with the Very Reverend Father Anthony (Bondi) to the left of His Grace. http://img534.imageshack.us/f/vestmentsepiscopalwr.jpg/


I queried the use of "Mass" with Vladyka Jerome, versus "Divine liturgy" and His Grace wrote in occidentalis:
Quote
I too see nothing wrong with using the word Mass. There is nothing heretical about it! St. Gregory Dialogus uses it ("missa") in his writings.

Fixed html code to allow users to actually view the picture and properly format quote
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 11:15:39 PM »

Gloria Dei!
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2011, 12:00:19 AM »

Laudatus Jesus Christus!
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2011, 12:03:23 AM »

Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 12:04:48 AM »

Gloria Dei!
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 12:15:04 AM »

Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".

pon·tiff   
[pon-tif]
–noun
1. any pontifex.
2. any high or chief priest.
3. Ecclesiastical .
   a. a bishop.
   b. the Roman Catholic pope, the Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 03:33:55 AM »

Cool! Cool


Lol! There are some non-English speakers and nobody corrects their errors. But when someone makes a mistake with Latin then there's always someone to correct. Grin
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 06:47:03 AM »

Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".

pon·tiff   
[pon-tif]
–noun
1. any pontifex.
2. any high or chief priest.
3. Ecclesiastical .
   a. a bishop.
   b. the Roman Catholic pope, the Bishop of Rome.

Is it ("Pontifical Mass") used this way in the Roman church in modernity or is this a sort of ancient Western Orthodox revival in meaning?
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 07:52:28 AM »

Pontifical as in bishop and high mass as in a Western-rite Divine Liturgy which is legitimately called a "mass" according to Bishop Jerome and as commonly used in the AWRV and by ROCOR WR in Canada and the US.
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 10:02:22 AM »


Hope and Prayers.....

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:04:27 AM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 10:04:13 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 10:08:57 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... Grin Let it Rest in Peace....


Why do we want to copy that abomination from the west anyway, it hasn't done the roman catholic or Anglican Churches any good ...Just look at the mess and  condition there in ....West is loosing there faith......Western Roman /Anglican Orthodoxy  isn't going to work........
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... Grin Let it Rest in Peace....


That's an interesting choice of words.

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 10:42:55 AM »

Yes, it really is ironic that those who think they're defending Orthodoxy the most are the ones who most deny its power.
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 10:47:52 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... Grin Let it Rest in Peace....


That's an interesting choice of words.

[/img]


These Images Blaaa......Not Orthodox....
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2011, 10:57:22 AM »

Does anyone know what his Grace is wearing around his neck it doesn't look to be a pectoral cross.
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2011, 11:45:23 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... Grin Let it Rest in Peace....


Why do we want to copy that abomination from the west anyway, it hasn't done the roman catholic or Anglican Churches any good ...Just look at the mess and  condition there in ....West is loosing there faith......Western Roman /Anglican Orthodoxy  isn't going to work........
The funeral at the Vatican a few years ago shows that it still has quite some life in it. Just imagine if you put Orthodoxy into the picture.

The Phanar just consecrated a Metropolitan to a dead Metropolis which has no Faithful. I've been there, the cradle of the Ottoman State.
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2011, 11:48:50 AM »

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... Grin Let it Rest in Peace....


That's an interesting choice of words.

[/img]


These Images Blaaa......Not Orthodox....
Neither is this:

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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2011, 12:06:43 PM »

These Images Blaaa......Not Orthodox....

Matthew 23:24


Hope and Prayers.....

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

Yes, it really is ironic that those who think they're defending Orthodoxy the most are the ones who most deny its power.

Indeed.
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2011, 12:51:03 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2011, 01:03:17 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.

My local RCC parish has a service that looks and feels like a Baptist church service, except for the lay Eucharistic ministers and altar girls. And the preaching isn't nearly as good. No, you cannot go to Rome and get the real thing. Not anymore.
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2011, 01:21:24 PM »

Great but why in November?
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2011, 01:36:35 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.

Doctrine, theology, where do you want to start?
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2011, 01:42:14 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?
Orthodoxy, bereft of heresy.
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2011, 01:53:40 PM »

I still don't get it.

If I wanted to learn about the Eastern Rite, I would go to the Eastern Orthodox Church to learn about it. That means I would go to a parish that is truly and historically part of the Orthodox Church, such as the Russian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church, or a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with them.  

 I would not go to Roman Catholic Church or a group in communion with Rome to learn about it, regardless of whether this group is called the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

It makes no sense for the Latin Church to use the Eastern Liturgy just as it makes no sense for the Eastern Church to perform the Western (Latin) liturgy.

Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?  Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake?

Eastern Rite Roman Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox are always going to be perceived as "grudge churches."  

And American, with all our jurisdictional pluralism and canonical mess is the LAST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox. We don't even have all the North American Orthodox on the same calendar and we introduce a Western Rite into our alphabet soup of jurisdictions?  I don't find that helpful, prudent or wise.  How can it possibly help American Orthodox to attain any unity?  It will only further fragment us into more tribal-like factions. It will create a liturgical ghetto for former Episcopalians and other converts rather than incorporating them into already existing American Orthodoxy.

As you can tell, I think the Western Rite in the USA is a horrible idea.  Perhaps in historical Western lands in Europe it could work, in places where there is a real organic link to the Western Orthodox past, like England or Ireland for example.  But it the USA, I think it will only further divide us.  And we desperately need more unity and cooperation. We are far too tribal and factional already.

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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2011, 01:57:07 PM »

I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 02:16:32 PM »

His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar-Bishop to His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has announced that in November he will celebrate a pontifical high mass in the Western-rite in Christ the Saviour Monastery in Canada.  His Grace has already worn Western vestments given to him by the Very Reverend Fr. Anthony (Bondi), Pastoral Vicar for the Western-Rite of ROCOR. Here is a photo of Vladyka Jerome with the Vicar-General for the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, and his assistant, with the Very Reverend Father Anthony (Bondi) to the left of His Grace. http://img534.imageshack.us/f/vestmentsepiscopalwr.jpg/


I queried the use of "Mass" with Vladyka Jerome, versus "Divine liturgy" and His Grace wrote in occidentalis:
Quote
I too see nothing wrong with using the word Mass. There is nothing heretical about it! St. Gregory Dialogus uses it ("missa") in his writings.

Fixed html code to allow users to actually view the picture and properly format quote
Great! This is wonderful to see! Smiley

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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 02:20:45 PM »


Hope and Prayers.....

Baa Humbug...... Grin Angry

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa

Stashko, you don't have to try so hard.  No one will accuse you of given them the warm fuzzies
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 02:28:09 PM »

I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.

A simple but excellent post.   
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »

I still don't get it.

Obvioulsly.

I
f I wanted to learn about the Eastern Rite, I would go to the Eastern Orthodox Church to learn about it. That means I would go to a parish that is truly and historically part of the Orthodox Church, such as the Russian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church, or a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with them.
 

I don't go to Church every Sunday to learn about the Eastern Rite particularly.  I go there to worship.

I would not go to Roman Catholic Church or a group in communion with Rome to learn about it, regardless of whether this group is called the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

I might go there to learn about the Vatican's teachings, if I were in an Eastern country and wanted to learn them.

It makes no sense for the Latin Church to use the Eastern Liturgy just as it makes no sense for the Eastern Church to perform the Western (Latin) liturgy
It makes no sense for the Catholic Church to limit herself to a direction. She held Ecumenical Councils, not Eastern ones.

Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?

No, you are seeing things.

Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake?
The WRO aren't.

Western Rite Orthodox are always going to be perceived as "grudge churches."
 
I would say only by the narrow minded, but I have no idea what a "grudge church" is.

And American, with all our jurisdictional pluralism and canonical mess is the LAST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox
And America, with all our ethnic ghettos and insularity nonsense is the FIRST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox.

We don't even have all the North American Orthodox on the same calendar and we introduce a Western Rite into our alphabet soup of jurisdictions?  I don't find that helpful, prudent or wise.
Thankfully, you're not in charge.

How can it possibly help American Orthodox to attain any unity?
For one, admitting that we are living in the West.  And whatever they did back in the Old Country, don't bring your old rule to your new monastery.

It will only further fragment us into more tribal-like factions.
LOL. Not while we are living on the WRO's reservation.

It will create a liturgical ghetto for former Episcopalians and other converts rather than incorporating them into already existing American Orthodoxy.
I've met plenty of Americanized Eastern Orthodox who ended up WRO rather than episcopalian.  That's enough of a reason.  And the WRO is already existing in American Orthodoxy, and has for two generations.

As you can tell, I think the Western Rite in the USA is a horrible idea.

That's OK. I think it is a SPLENDID idea.

Perhaps in historical Western lands in Europe it could work, in places where there is a real organic link to the Western Orthodox past, like England or Ireland for example.
You live in Alaska or Northern California?

But it the USA, I think it will only further divide us.  And we desperately need more unity and cooperation. We are far too tribal and factional already.
Yes, you animus against the WRO shows that.
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2011, 02:35:32 PM »

I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.

A simple but excellent post.   
Indeed!
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2011, 02:37:18 PM »

ah! thanks.
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2011, 02:39:44 PM »

Does anyone know what his Grace is wearing around his neck it doesn't look to be a pectoral cross.
I think it is his grace's Panagia.
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2011, 02:44:16 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.

Sounds like twofold branch theory to me. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2011, 02:45:57 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.

Sounds like twofold branch theory to me. 
Worse, as it condemned the one branch to withering and dying.
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2011, 02:49:41 PM »

Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.

Orthodoxy is the real thing. 
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2011, 02:56:41 PM »

I still don't get it...Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?  Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake?   
Yea, we need to get over that too.   As one priest told me at one time:  "there are many RC's that are really Orthodox and many Orthodox that are really RC's."  This has nothing to do with "rite," but with the essence of the Faith found in any legitimate Orthodox rite (eastern, western, northern or southern) as St. Symeon of Thessalonica pointed out.  As same priest said to me:  "we should just have an exchange program--those of theirs that really belong to us should come over here, rite and all, and vice versa."   There are no "western" and "eastern" rites, there are universal rites that had their origin in particular localities throughout the west and east. 
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2011, 03:31:36 PM »

I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.

Please address and respond to the following questions:

1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?

2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?

3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?

4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?

6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."

7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Wink

8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it. 

9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2011, 03:45:04 PM »

1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?

Some people consider it more appealing. It also broadens horizonts. Cultural diversity is a good thing.

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2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?

It's the only one choice.

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3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?

It did not died out but was murdered.

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4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

I don't have a Protestant background and I know personally about two Protestants but I share this belief so I suppose it's not the Protestant mentality.

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5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?

Maybe He wants us to show some involvement in restoring it?

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6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."

Why are you asking this question here? I doubt there are Church of Finland Council members to answer  to it.

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7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Wink

Or perheaps as they  are under Constantinople they do not want to break Constantinople's approach of Hellenisation?

Quote
8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.

It does not belong to Rome. It belongs to the Church.

Quote
9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?

Yes. Repaired car is still a car.

Quote
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?

Why not use latin Liturgies that formed the piety of our people for generations?
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« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2011, 04:02:12 PM »

I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.

I have a funny feeling you will never accept any argument as "valid" for the WR.

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1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?

The salvation of the faithful??

Quote
2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Nothing is wrong with the Eastern Rite.

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3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?

There is evidence of a group of Old Believers--canonical the whole time--who have used a WR liturgy for centuries, meaning it has been in continual use. At any rate, excluding that group of Old Believers, it has been less than 1000 years. The monastery on Mt Athos lasted into the 1200s, and there had been a few attempts between then and the 1800s to bring the WR back into the fold. We also use other Eastern DLs on a sporadic basis, by your argument, it would be renovationsim there too.

Quote
4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

Who says anything about an ideal?? Maybe you are reading into the WR your own misconceptions.

Quote
5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?

Perhaps He is letting it come back into use for a reason??

Quote
6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."

Maybe they have found that what they have works for their circumstances?? Maybe those who use the WR have found it works for theirs??

Quote
7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?

They probably also found that it is best to evangelise in Finnish. Does that mean we should also evangelise in Finnish, because it works for the Finns?? They do what works for them, and those working in the WR do what works for them.

Quote
8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.

The Latin Mass belongs to the Church of Christ, as part of a rich liturgical heritage. It does not belong to an earthly city.

Quote
9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?

Because naturally, those venerable liturgies have gone unchanged, set in stone for centuries.
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2011, 04:03:36 PM »

I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.

It's not so-called, that is what it's called.

Quote
Please address and respond to the following questions:

1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?

This is the wrong question to ask. Orthodoxy is not Utilitarian and interestingly enough, that question reeks of all that is currently wrong with "the West." It's not about what's "needed" it's about beauty and truth.

Quote
2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Nothing. Some of us just don't want our rich spiritual heritage to be thrown into the crapshoot.

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3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?

It didn't die out. What in the world do you think the British and Roman Churches continued to use after the Schism? And it has been far less than 1,000. As an entire Rite, it's more like 700, and as far as liturgies go, there has never been a break within the Orthodox Church.

Quote
4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

I know "Protestant" is a dirty word to you, but you obviously don't know much about their original "mentality" otherwise, you'd know that what they wanted to do was much needed. Unless you're completely unaware of the doctrinal innovations of the Roman Catholic Church...

I'll never understand this common mindset within anti-Western Rite people of hating any idea of "restoration" or "resurrection" when that is exactly what the Church is all about. You want to talk about being "utterly baffled" by something...

Quote
5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?

Again, it didn't die out.

Quote
6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?

Perhaps no Lutherans have approached them?

Quote
A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."

Not sure who "the Cranmer" is, or what you think his relationship is to the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon is (again, not "so-called" that is what it's called) but this is just another example of the historical ignorance and intellectual laziness of anti-Western Riters that people justly scoff at. You quite clearly haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Quote
7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Wink

If it works, God bless it!

Quote
8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.

All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.

Quote
I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.

That's nice of you.

Quote
The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.

All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.

Quote
Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?

"Tampering" is not the term I'd use when dealing with the expulsion of heresy, but perhaps that's because I take it seriously.

Quote
Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?

Yep!

Quote
If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore.

Probably why we call it the Rite of St. Gregory and not "The Tridentine Mass."

Quote
It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.

LOL

Quote
9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?

All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.

Quote
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?

Because some people have their own legitimate heritage that formed the piety of Orthodox Saints for over a millennium and, unlike your very limited take on Orthodoxy, we believe that heritage rightfully belongs in the bosom of the Undivided Church of Christ.
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2011, 04:21:49 PM »

I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.
The Russian Church Abroad has authorised the Western-rite, so I am duty bound to accept this decision.  I do however share your misgivings about the place of and the so-called imperative or a Western-rite.
[quo
Please address and respond to the following questions:

Quote
1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?
There are some who say that the rite is needed for Western people who find the Byzantine too ethnic or exotic.  I see this as a form of cultural phyletism. because the Liturgy of S. John Chrysostom is celebrated in Western vernacular languages all over the world and in Asian and other languages also. Bishop Kallistos of Diokeltia wrote:
Quote
If we wish to help western persons joining Orthodoxy, the best way is to offer them the possibility of attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in the English language. There is nothing "oriental" or "ethnic" about this Liturgy. True, it was written in Greek and not in Latin; but then Plato and Sophocles wrote in Greek, yet we recognize them as part of our shared European culture. The same is true of St. John Chrysostom. We English can feel thoroughly at home in his Liturgy - as I know from my own experience.

Quote
2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?
I think the Eastern-rite is really the Orthodox rite for all humanity.  Christianity is Eastern - our roots and culture and history lay in the Middle East.  Fr. Alexander Schmemann writes:
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And then the last question: is it quite correct to define our rite as "Eastern" and therefore "foreign to all the Western Christians have known" to quote the Edict? I would like to suggest a rather sharp distinction between "Eastern" and "oriental". No doubt there are many oriental features, oriental ingredients in our liturgical life. No doubt also, that for many Orthodox this "orientalism" seems to be the essential element. But we know that it is not essential and we know that progressively all these "orientalisms" are being eliminated in a very natural and spontaneous process of adjustment of our cult to the American life. But then what remains and what can be described as "Eastern" is nothing else but the Biblical and the Patristic "content" of our liturgy. It is essentially and structurally Biblical and Patristic, and therefore, it is "eastern" in exactly the same measure in which the Bible and the Fathers, or rather, the whole Christianity can be termed "Eastern". But have we not proclaimed time and again in all our encounters with our Western brothers that it is this "East" precisely that constitutes the common and the catholic heritage of the Church and can supply us with a common language which has been lost or distorted? The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or the Easter Canon of St. John of Damascus, are, I believe, much closer to that common and Catholic language of the Church than anything else in any Christian tradition. And I cannot think of any word or phrase in these services that would be "foreign" to a Western Christian and would not be capable of expressing his faith and his experience, if the latter would be genuinely Orthodox . . .

Quote
3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?
I liken it to taking some DNA and reconstructing a prehistoric dinosaur.  It arguably is a break with a massive break of hundreds of years of the West being immersed in heterodoxy.

Quote
4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" . .. I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.
Well there is a certain Anglo-Catholic tradition, taken up by vagantes of picking and choosing ecclesiastically rather than submitting to the Church and tradition. There is a risk of this occurring with the WR.  "I can use the 1549 Anglican mass with an Orthodox epiclesis but the Anglican matins and evensong are OK ...."  Where does this end?  

Have a look at: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/ quoted re the risks of this new Western-rite:
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If you want to see the future of “Orthodoxy” in the vision of those making the most enthusiastic noise about “Western Rites”, you have only to look around you at the crumbling pillars of Rome and her children. The very religiosity into which they wish to initiate us is being boiled down, and our participation will be courted as the ‘recovery’ of something lost (merely an earlier stage in the process) and the ‘purification’ of what was fundamentally fine (a different stew than our fathers ever knew). We are being asked to embrace a new Orthodoxy, a traditional Orthodoxy, and a continuing Orthodoxy, all within the same confession. We are being asked to become Episcopalians in culture and Orthodox in name.

So-called “Western Orthodoxy” is merely a symbol of this process and a symptom of the new order being formed, a different ecclesiology, a pseudo-ekklesia. In and of itself, it certainly has significant problems, many of which have been rather universally recognized [survey]. In terms of what its progress is telling us about the contemporary Orthodox movement (and the very fact that it is movement, and can no longer be considered static or a state – and so now has much in common with the Episcopalian experience) — in those terms, it points to much larger problems that are as yet, just as with the Episcopalians, not widely or fully acknowledged. This despite the countless warnings of monastic communities, ascetic saints, Orthodox prophets, and holy martyrs. Lord have mercy.

You’d think the Episcopalians would like what these folk are up to, but anyone that has suffered what many of them have, through this process, could only look at it with sadness, and perhaps a will to help us fight it. The ones chasing it like a grail are those ‘true believers’ who still think the key problems are gays and women priests, and miss the point entirely. For them, an Episcopalianized Orthodoxy, especially a Western Orthodoxy, is a mirage, and they’re greedily gulping down what many of us recognize as sand. The sad thing is that we are feeding it to them, in the name of disseminating the Faith. This can only happen when we have begun to lose our Faith the same way they did: Quite literally by losing The Faith.

Quote
5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?
Maybe He has allowed its rebirth by DNA grafting also?  

Quote
6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."
There is no reason.  Take the Anglican prayer book offices of Matins and Evensong that replaced the 7 breviary hours.  They were contrived in a non-Catholic Zwingli-an spirit by Cranmer.  I cannot understand why the WR don't simply go back to the proper sevenfold pre-Reformation monastic hours.

Quote
7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Wink
Bishop Kallistos clearly thinks so, as do many Orthodox bishops ands scholars.  Of course some disagree strongly.

Quote
8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.  
If you have to tamper with the Western Latin Catholic or Anglican masses in order to make them Orthodox, there has been something fundamentally rotten in these liturgical uses since day 1.  Why correct an error when you can use what the Church has right, has made right? Why not use the Byzantine liturgy in English/French/Japanese/Indonesian/Korean as happens in ROCOR now?

Quote
9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all? Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?
Logically a Western-rite Orthodoxy needs to be a sui juris or autonomous Church within Orthodoxy, with its own bishops, proper theological colleges for clerical formation and the opportunity to be a Western Orthodox Church. In my view if you are going to have a Western-rite Orthodoxy, make it an autonomous Church with its own bishops, synod etc. Of course the falling away from orthodoxy of the French autonomous WR Church after the repose of St. John of Shanghai in 1966 is a warning of what could happen also.

The problem is that right now they are perhaps 5% of converts to Orthodoxy worldwide with 95% being Eastern-rite.  If you want proof look at the online clerical directory of the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia in the US, in Great Britain, in Australia.  You will see many priests and monastics, deacons, subdeacons and readers - all converts - serving in English and Slavonic.  This is mirrored in the numbers of Western convert laity.  So you have Eastern Orthodoxy - missionary and evangelical and successful at this competing with the Western-rite for converts.  

In my own country after almost 14 years of Western-rite missionary work they have 1 priest and 1 priest-monk who splits his time between the UK and Australia, 1 mission with at best half a dozen people at mass, and if you look at the Eastern-rite it is a different picture.  It seems to me that Eastern-rite Orthodoxy can be recognised by Western seekers as a living tradition, as a real tradition, albeit ethnic in many ways.  Western people looking at Western-rite Orthodoxy see a reconstruction of DNA, with no organic history before the latter part of the 20th century and have no real connection with Sarum/Celtic so-called pre schism Western spirituality and history. You can at least go into a Greek or Russian parish church and find community, continuity, generation after generation of Orthodox believers.  In the WR it is starting from scratch, a much harder proposition.  
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2011, 04:28:46 PM »

SubdeaconDavid: What on Earth is 'a sui juris Church'?
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2011, 04:32:16 PM »

SubdeaconDavid: What on Earth is 'a sui juris Church'?
I guess in essence autonomous - defined as making its own laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_iuris
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« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2011, 04:35:56 PM »

Again, I will repeat, there is no such thing as eastern and western rites, but rather universal rites which originated in various localities.  If the Liturgy of Sts. John, Basil, James, are not universal which originated in Syria, Caesarea, Jerusalem, but rather "eastern rites," we have no business serving them in the US.   However, as they are universal, regardless of where they originated in the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, there is no problem doing so. 
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